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Thread: Doggerland and Ancient Europid Movements in Northwestern Europe

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    Doggerland and Ancient Europid Movements in Northwestern Europe

    While I don't know much about the topic of Doggerland, I thought I would start a thread on this subject. The concept of Doggerland is relatively new and it seems to me that it is a critical piece of the puzzle when trying to reconstruct ancient Europid movements in northwestern Europe. Surely this lost, drowned land played a pivotal role in the ethnogenesis of Germanics and likely the Celtic folk as well and not to forget current genotypic and phenotypic trends found within modern Europid populations of the northwest of Europe.

    Here are a few links on the topic to be followed my various maps/reconstructions of what the ancient coastlines may have looked like when Doggerland was still dry:

    http://everything2.com/e2node/Doggerland

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(prehistoric)

    http://neveryetmelted.com/index.php/...ry/doggerland/

    http://www.sogaer.ex.ac.uk/archaeolo...ggerland.shtml

    http://www.nature.com/news/2008/0807...l/454151a.html





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    I think it makes perfect sense. It's easy to over-emphasise the differences within Northwestern Europe. One can imagine waves of people moving north then becoming isolated by the dissipation of the ice sheet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    I think it makes perfect sense. It's easy to over-emphasise the differences within Northwestern Europe. One can imagine waves of people moving north then becoming isolated by the dissipation of the ice sheet.
    How would it tie in with mainstream genetic theories such as the Iberian R1b refuge during the last ice age?

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    Another map:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian View Post
    How would it tie in with mainstream genetic theories such as the Iberian R1b refuge during the last ice age?
    Well, I'm sure that many of the R1b carriers moved into Doggerland as the sea levels dropped....and it possibly could have been a springboard for R1b to make its way into what is now Denmark and Norway. Denmark is roughly 50% R1b and Norway, roughly 25%

    The mirror of this, is that is also would have provided an easier way for more easterly haplogroups to find their way into Britain--such as R1a and the I haplogroups.

    Keep in mind that in those days, travel by boats along coastal routes was likely far easier than trapsing across land with heavy loads, through deep woods, murky bogs and the like. The undulating coast with many deep & protected estuaries would have been an ideal highway of travel, trade and gene swapping from the Baltic to Britain.

    The Irish currachs are surely the remnants of the type of boat that would have been in widespread use during the Mesolithic.

    If you get a chance, have a gander at Alistair Moffat's exceptional book, Before Scotlandand his chapter on Doggerland. Good reading.




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    I'm just going to dominate this thread.

    Anyway, I've been reading some about St. Kilda, the outermost of the Outer Hebrides (lying some 40 miles west of North Uist). It's quite a facinating story, really. This tiny archipelago is known to have been inhabited by humans since at the least the Bronze Age and perhaps much earlier. The islands inhabitants were evacuated in 1930.......

    They have somewhat of a "founder myth" that derives from the time when sea levels were low enough that St. Kilda was not an island, or, at least was not a tiny island and was in fact, connected to the Outer Hebrides. A woman known as the "Warrior Queen" had the right to hunt the then dry lands between Harris and Hirta (the main island of St. Kilda). It is possible that the first inhabitants of Hirta found their way there duing the period succeeding the glacial epoch while there was dry land between Hirta & the Hebrides, and the legend of how the got there would have been handed down through the generations.

    No deer now dwell on Hirta but sets of antlers have been found in the peat on the island. Food for thought....



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    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian View Post
    How would it tie in with mainstream genetic theories such as the Iberian R1b refuge during the last ice age?
    Well, I recently had my DNA tested and to put it simply, I'm an R1b1c9. The company who tested me state that this Haplogroup originated in Doggerland between 9,000-12,000 ybp.

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    Doggerland was a sea-port of Atland according to the Oera Linda Book.

    great thread.

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    Allenson,

    I was about to open a thread on this topic, and I saw you beat me to it by more than a few months.

    Anyway, I wanted to direct your attention to an episode of Time Team, called Britain's Drowned World, available on YouTube. It's all about Doggerland. They have some interesting reconstructions. I wonder why they call it Britain's drowned world though. If anything, Doggerland was a region of "nether lands".

    Britain's Drowned Land




    Also, a couple of weeks ago, I was reading about this crazy yet interesting theory that some form of Germanic had long been spoken in Britain, before the advent of the Anglo-Saxons. That this was a relict of the age when there was still a landbridge between the British Isles and the continent. The author has put his theory on a readable and accessible website, called How old is English? Quite a few of his arguments seemed rather shaky, but it's fascinating nonetheless. (If you're short on time, try the summary.)








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    And speaking of "Atland", or Atlantis; I'm reminded of J.R.R. Tolkien, who said he had 'what some might call an Atlantis complex'. He spoke of 'the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields.' (See The Letters of Tolkien, #163.)

    Tolkien alluded to this vision of Atlantis in his stories about Númenor, the island civilisation that rebelled against the Gods (the Valar) and became Atalantë, "the Downfallen", as it was swept under the waves by divine wrath.

    On several occasions Tolkien stated that although he was born in South-Africa, and had spent his early childhood there, England felt like home to him when his family moved back.

    I can't help but think that these are examples of genetic memory (or: racial memory). The flooding of Doggerland must have had a huge impact on the souls of our ancestors, especially since the now-submerged region is described as being paradisial, with vast green lands of rolling hills.


    I hereby rename this once beautiful land...

    Aþallandaz 'noble land'

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