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Thread: The Ethnic and Genetic Heritage of Germanics in Europe and America

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    Funding Member Gefjon's Avatar
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    The Ethnic and Genetic Heritage of Germanics in Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    If it wasn't an American it would have only been a Chinese businessman or a Russian oligarch.
    Nah, what I meant was that on the Althing, there used to be some folks who didn't believe that the Germanic Americans deserved the same courtesy and protection that Germans or Danes or whatever did. There were folks who didn't give a damn about preserving Germanic heritage in the USA, and so they thought it was acceptable to bash it and label it as a "non-Germanic country" or "melting pot" and the like. I'd like to know what the new owner Forseti thinks about such things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Angel View Post
    Nah, what I meant was that on the Althing, there used to be some folks who didn't believe that the Germanic Americans deserved the same courtesy and protection that Germans or Danes or whatever did. There were folks who didn't give a damn about preserving Germanic heritage in the USA, and so they thought it was acceptable to bash it and label it as a "non-Germanic country" or "melting pot" and the like. I'd like to know what the new owner Forseti thinks about such things.
    I'd love to hear it, too, but I can't restrain myself to give my two cents.

    Imagine a Germanic from Europe -- an Englishman, a German, a Dutchman, or a Scandinavian -- moving to America. If you are a Germanic from Europe imagine yourself settling in America. Would he or you cease to be a Germanic? Of course not.

    Imagine our Englishman took his English wife with him and they had children. Would they cease to be Germanic? Not either.

    What if first hundreds, then thousands, then ten thousands, then hundreds of thousands of Germanics moved to a new continent, settling, pioneering, building towns, founding families, multiplying to many millions? They still would be Germanic.

    Exactly this happened in America, and that's why Americans are Germanics beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    They brought their culture, their education, their knowledge, their values with them from Europe. America's history is long and complex, but because the English used to be among the most numerous original settlers and pioneers, and because the core of what then was the known part of America used to become eventually British, the American culture, values and institutions are predominantly based on Anglo-Saxon roots but enriched by the best other Germanic ethnicities which quickly assimilated and adapted had to offer. Since it was overwhelmingly the brave and the strong, the explorers and the visionaries, the intelligent and the freedom-loving who dared to step into a New World seizing the chance to a better life, not minding the hardship of creating a new civilization from the raw materials Mother Earth had to offer, the gene pool of Americans is composed of some of the best elements the Germanic nations in Europe had to give.

    This should settle the issue and I could stop here, if there were no ignorance in the world. Isn't America a melting pot of nations? Isn't it multi-cultural? What about the Scots, the Irish, the French, the Spaniards who had moved to America? Didn't the Americans mix with them? Didn't they absorb some of their culture, too?

    Yes, they did. Absolutely. In some places more than in others. But not more than Germanics in Europe mixed with other Europeans, and not more than Germanic nations in Europe exchanged their culture with other European nations. Is really anybody here so naive to believe that a modern German, a modern Englishman, a modern Dutchman, a modern Scandinavian has only — let's take the first example because Germany is located in the center of Europe and thus on the crossroad — that a modern German has only German ancestors, just because he might be ignorant enough to know only his parents and grandparents and they happen to have German surnames (or in some cases not even that)?

    What happened over the last 2,000 years of history in Europe when Germanic tribes were first observed and recorded? Is anybody not aware that a significant part of the modern 19th and 20th century German ethnicity lives on Celtic core land? The Illyrians were there, too, the Romans were there, the Turks were there, the Huns were there, the Slavs were there, the Balts were there, the French were there, the Russians were there, and African-Americans in uniforms are still there. Do you think that any German woman might have ever been raped by... Russians? Do you think any Slavs were ever assimilated during the expansion of Franks and Bavarians to the South-East? Any Hungarians during the time of the Austrian Empire? Any Slavs and Balts during the times of the Teutonic Knights? Any gene exchange with non-Germanics during the Thirty Years' War? The Napoleonic Wars? WW1? WW2?

    How many non-Germanics were assimilated during the expansion of German tribes to the South and the East? How many people crossed this territory from East to West and from South to North in the last hundreds of years alone? How many non-Germanics immigrated and settled in a German city? No, I'm not talking of late 20th century immigration. I'm talking of Medieval and industrial age (im)migration.

    In other words, European Germanics are exactly as pure as American Germanics.

    Nowadays, every year about 200,000 Germans leave Germany, and as many non-Germans move in. The German people will be able to assimilate all Germanic immigrants, compatible European immigrants, but the rest will not become a part of the German people. It's no different in America ... or Australia, or New Zealand, or amongst the Boers.

    What about the blacks? The Indians? The Hispanics? Chinatown? Look at your own big cities. What about your blacks, your Turks, your Bosnians, your Arabs, your Somalis, your Tamils or whatever you might have? The former are as American, as the latter are German, English, Dutch, or Scandinavian.

    So let's not confuse ourselves. American Germanics recognize Americans by looking at them and by talking to them, as much as European Germanics know their countrymen by doing precisely the same.
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    Funding Member Dagna's Avatar
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    On Americans.
    I believe some Europeans are afraid that we are trying to steal their legacy. They are under the impression that we want to be Germans or Scandinavians or whatnot. We do not. I am and will always be an American, and I am not ashamed of it, quite on the contrary. I am proud to have been born of a nation that stuck closest to the Germanic spirit of freedom. Our founding fathers were true democrats who cared for their kin. Our nation was founded by Germanics. I don't believe however that I should deny my ethnic heritage just because it offends a German from Germany. There certainly are some Americans who try to be what they are not. I believe the worst kind are the anti-American Americans, who believe themselves to be European and nothing else, and try to dissociate as much as possible from their country. Their identity crisis manifests through slurs directed at their own Germanic kin, denying their Germanic heritage and their right to preservation. Disappointing and quite a nuisance.

    To Thorburn, very wise explanation. I am glad that there is finally a firm stance uttered on this topic.


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    I see American Germanics on the same eye-level as European Germanics but I feel a little bit uncomfortable when the history of German/European Germanics is put on the same "mixed" level with the history of American Germanics. So with all due respect Thorburn : I can´t share the full extend of your opinion.

    You say "In other words, European Germanics are exactly as pure as American Germanics.", but that´s not correct from my point view.

    Thanks to local church birth-books I can trace my family-line more than 11 generations back. The only visible "foreign" influence is a Swedish man (possibly a soldier) who married one of my female ancestors during the Thirty Years' War some centuries back. My father has put some efforts into his genealogy hobby and so he was able to find ancestors from the time before the American continent was even colonisized by European settlers. Many people here have a smiliar familyline.

    While I acknowledge that especially European city-regions always had some form of mixing it´s proven that the population of more remote European regions remained without too much mixing for the very most time. Sometimes even millenias.

    The key to this information is DNA genealogy. Only recently anthropologists from the University of Göttingen could trace two Northern German family lines back to the Bronze Age - around 3000 years ago. The sensation is that the decendants of some of the Bronze Age skeletons are residing in the same region where the ancient graves were found. This means that there wasn´t much foreign genetic influence during these 3000 years, mainly because the specific region was always a more remote one. (I try to find the source for this information again.)

    Furthermore it´s clear that the ethnogenese of our Germanic tribe lies in Europe, not in America. Europe is the birthplace, the home. Because of this alone I think it´s not correct to state that European Germanics are exactly as much mixed as American Germanics. While the quantity of the pilgrims (like on the Mayflower) and settlers to America was relatively low, a possible race-mix with a Negro or a Native American with one of the childs of the first settlers has much more impact to their mass of descendants than it´d have to European Germanics in the same situation because of the far more different family-lines there.

    And we should keep in mind that not less of the settlers were people with a more "special" fate. Some groups of pilgrims and settlers to America were sects and religious cults who tried to escape prosecution and punishment back in Europe. Some of these cults (not all, of course. Some were quite near to the old Germanic kind of living) became more alienated to the old Germanic breed and traditions than "normal" Catholics here in Europe.

    We shouldn´t divide each other because European Germanics and American Germanics should stay together, but I think it´s simply not true that both sides are exactly mixed to the same extend. Generalisations are not good. There are mainly Germanic regions in (rural) Mid-West USA for example, and there are mainly Germanic regions in (rural) Europe. Of course there are mixed regions in the USA as well as in Europe.

    The probability that an US Germanic has some Irish, Native American or French blood in his venes is higher than in rural Skandinavia. Because it wasn´t Central or Northern Europe where settlers from the most different European countries landed to raise cities and constitute a (proud) nation.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    The Godfather "Friend of Germanics"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen Angel View Post
    Nah, what I meant was that on the Althing, there used to be some folks who didn't believe that the Germanic Americans deserved the same courtesy and protection that Germans or Danes or whatever did. There were folks who didn't give a damn about preserving Germanic heritage in the USA, and so they thought it was acceptable to bash it and label it as a "non-Germanic country" or "melting pot" and the like. I'd like to know what the new owner Forseti thinks about such things.
    The "Melting Pot" is a play written by Israel Zangwill in the early 20th century. Its artistic merit is... debatable. The ideas or hopes its author sprouted remain unfulfilled until this very day. My approach is very pragmatic: I would wish that on this board members of Germanic heritage enjoy precisely the same respect and treatment, no matter which Germanic roots they have and no matter where they live.
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    I wouldn't worry about it, it wasn't really much of an issue on the Althing aside from occasional flare-ups and some cultural differences regarding such things as capital punishment, firearms ownership, and the desirability of a market economy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    I see American Germanics on the same eye-level as European Germanics but I feel a little bit uncomfortable when the history of German/European Germanics is put on the same "mixed" level with the history of American Germanics. So with all due respect Thorburn : I can´t share the full extend of your opinion.


    You say "In other words, European Germanics are exactly as pure as American Germanics.", but that´s not correct from my point view.
    Well noted but I shall still win this discussion if you don't mind.

    Thanks to local church birth-books I can trace my family-line more than 11 generations back. The only visible "foreign" influence is a Swedish man (possibly a soldier) who married one of my female ancestors during the Thirty Years' War some centuries back. My father has put some efforts into his genealogy hobby and so he was able to find ancestors from the time before the American continent was even colonisized by European settlers. Many people here have a smiliar familyline.
    That's a lot, but then again, church books tell nothing apart from the fact that your ancestors were Christians (and probably Catholics). They do, with all due respect, not tell whether one of your female ancestors enjoyed a few pleasant moments with a non-Germanic tradesman (without having ever confessed them to her husband), nor do they list whether one of your female ancestors was raped during the many inter-ethnic wars and occupations that happened alone from the 16th century onwards. Even many Jews got baptized to gain the same social and economic privileges Christians enjoyed, and if they tipped the paper shuffler or the priest they could freely choose their name.

    While I acknowledge that especially European city-regions always had some form of mixing it´s proven that the population of more remote European regions remained without too much mixing for the very most time. Sometimes even millenias.
    True to a large extent if one overlooks that in the early medieval ages it used to be a tradition that after tribal conflicts the winners took the young women and daughters of the killed men as a prize and their genes were absorbed.

    And Europe, as it is today, wasn't always fully settled either. Scandinavia, for example, used to be only scarcely settled and, as a rule of thumb, the more remote a region was, the emptier it used to be. When Iceland was settled, the Norsemen simply took Celtic women from today's British Isles with them which leads to the remarkable phenomenon that until this very day the mitochondrial DNA of Icelanders is overwhelmingly of "Celtic" origin, while their Y-chromosomes carry almost exclusively "Germanic" markers.

    But in any case: What's your point? It used to be overwhelmingly precisely this rural population which migrated to the New World because until the 1900's and the begin of the industrial age, literally everywhere 90+% of the population were farmers or farm workers and lived, so to speak, on the country-side.

    The key to this information is DNA genealogy. Only recently anthropologists from the University of Göttingen could trace two Northern German family lines back to the Bronze Age - around 3000 years ago. The sensation is that the decendants of some of the Bronze Age skeletons are residing in the same region where the ancient graves were found. This means that there wasn´t much foreign genetic influence during these 3000 years, mainly because the specific region was always a more remote one. (I try to find the source for this information again.)
    That's interesting, but what the study probably will not reveal is whether the carriers of these genes were Germanics 3,000 years ago. My guess is they were not. In the late Bronze Age, Northern Germany was inhabited by the Urnfield culture, and most scholars consider them ancestors of the Celts. Or they could have belonged to the Lusatian culture of which also burial fields in (North-)Eastern Germany were found -- and they were proto-Slavs. So while the genes might have stayed around in the area, the probability is large that at some stage their carriers might have been culturally and linguistically Germanicized -- during the Iron Age or maybe even only much later.

    Furthermore it´s clear that the ethnogenese of our Germanic tribe lies in Europe, not in America. Europe is the birthplace, the home.
    Objection. Strawman. Nobody argued otherwise.

    Because of this alone I think it´s not correct to state that European Germanics are exactly as much mixed as American Germanics. While the quantity of the pilgrims (like on the Mayflower) and settlers to America was relatively low, a possible race-mix with a Negro or a Native American with one of the childs of the first settlers has much more impact to their mass of descendants than it´d have to European Germanics in the same situation because of the far more different family-lines there.
    Exactly is unlikely, you are right. I retract, your honor. It's as likely as if one dropped a coin to the floor and it would come to a rest on its edge.

    But now we are actually jumping to an entirely different topic, namely possible admixture with non-European racial strains. What I argued is that I consider it unlikely that American Germanics as a whole possess more racially European but ethnically non-Germanic influences than European Germanics as a whole. The reason is that European Germanics -- all the Germans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Netherlanders, and the Scandinavians -- already possess a good deal of originally non-Germanic admixture. Whole population groups were over the ages even entirely Germanicized.

    American Germanics do finally originate from European Germanics and while some of them in America continued to absorb non-Germanic Europeans, the same process continued in Europe, too.

    If we talk now about non-European admixture, then American Germanics might have absorbed a little Indian and Negroid blood in the past. Not all too much, because socially and culturally the "one drop rule" was implemented: If someone had one Negro ancestor in his family line, no matter how many generations back, he was still considered a Negro (although, genetically seen, this individual could have been 98% Europid) and taboo. This was not only accepted by the Europeans, but also by the blacks. Such individuals, indeed, considered themselves blacks, associated with blacks and married blacks.

    Germanics in Europe, however, similarly absorbed non-European genes. The Hunnic Empire stretched over almost the complete area of today's Germany (almost, and that's important). The Turks stood at the gates of Vienna twice. Scandinavians came into contact with the Sami. There are still three whole countries in Europe which speak languages which originated in Central Asia (Hungary, Finland, and Estonia), and they lived right next to Germanics, partly intermingled with Germanics, and had a close cultural, social and bureaucratic relationship with them.

    But I want to come back to my "almost:" The Germanics which migrated to America came, to wit, predominantly not from the areas which were ever occupied, savaged and raped by the Huns and Turks. They predominantly came from England, the Netherlands, and Northwestern Germany. Neither the Huns, nor the Turks had made it that far. So in compensation for having absorbed maybe a bit of Indian and Negroid blood, they got less of a dose of Central Asian genes. And it's not so that no sub-Saharan markers can be found amongst European Germanics either. Less than amongst Southern Europeans, for sure, but they are not absent.

    And almost all of the offspring of African and European sexual intercourse in America, never made it into the American Caucasian genetic pool in the first place. About 30% of European genes made it into the average "African-American," however.

    So taking everything as whole, I think it's a bit problematic to argue that European Germanics are "less mixed" than American Germanics. There are some Germanic groups in Europe who might have less non-Germanic cultural and non-Europid genetic influences than some Germanic groups in America. But the opposite holds true as well: if one were to believe in stereotypes, then the Midwest beats the s*** out of the modern European Alemanns by what a lay would consider a "prototypical Germanic" by a long shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    But I want to come back to my "almost:" The Germanics which migrated to America came, to wit, predominantly not from the areas which were ever occupied, savaged and raped by the Huns and Turks. They predominantly came from England, the Netherlands, and Northwestern Germany. Neither the Huns, nor the Turks had made it that far.
    The short-lived "Hunnic Empire" also included Germanic tribes who simply paid tribute to the Huns without being regularly subjected to rape. I think your assertions are inspired by WW1 propaganda of the British, who also conveniently excused themselves from the very same ancestry. The difference is that their claim is more believable than the idea that 50,764,352 Americans of self-reported German ancestry stem mostly from people who escaped the effects of a supposed Hunnic mass mongrelization that occurred fourteen centuries prior to their emigration. In Baden alone, 5% of the population emigrated to the United States.

    I don't feel the need to comment on the massive influence the Turks must have had on the narrow strip between Vienna and the Hungarian border.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    The reason is that European Germanics -- all the Germans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Netherlanders, and the Scandinavians -- already possess a good deal of originally non-Germanic admixture. Whole population groups were over the ages even entirely Germanicized.
    In a bird's-eye perspective, though, Germanics as an meta-ethnic group on the whole share a unique genetic profile, as demonstrated by numerous scientific studies over the past years, i.e. they are distinct from other meta-ethnic groups in Europe.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full.pdf

    http://www.mankindquarterly.org/samp...ccorrected.pdf

    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    Germanics in Europe, however, similarly absorbed non-European genes. The Hunnic Empire stretched over almost the complete area of today's Germany (almost, and that's important). The Turks stood at the gates of Vienna twice. Scandinavians came into contact with the Sami.
    The non-European genes were largely absorbed in the non-Germanic, multi-ethnic meltingpot of Eastern Europe. The Finno-Ugric and Germanic populations in Scandinavia have always lived separated (coast vs. inland, the Germanic south vs. the Finno-Ugric north etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
    So taking everything as whole, I think it's a bit problematic to argue that European Germanics are less mixed than American Germanics.
    I agree, and I think this forum should leave its archaic focus on traditional European nationalism (i.e. territorialism), and focus on the overwhelming importance of a transatlantic, supranational Germanic identity.

    We have seen some consequences of the European bias here for some time now, when anti-Americanism kicks over the traces and goes astray in russophilia, leftisms and other ridiculous delusions.

    And I say this as a European honouring and respecting my kinsfolk and distant relatives in America.

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    What good does it to either American Germanics or European Germanics to bicker like this over who has the most non-germanic or even non-European admixture. It inevitably ends in Americans pointing out this and that possible source of admixture for Europeans and Europeans doing the same for Americans. A mutual character assassination in other words. When will you be satisfied? When the other side conceeds that he is a bit more mongrelized than your own "hunnish/turkish/jewish/black-soldier infested and rape-plagued" gene-pool? Is that the kind of idea that you want to instill in your fellow Germanics?

    What good can possibly come out of this?

    Since nobody is presenting any figures, percentages, numbers, maps or graphs which would bring some reasonableness to this discussion, all we get is unsubstantiated and generalized claims about the other side's mongrelized nature. I'd give it up if I were you.

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