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Thread: Heathen Opinions On Christian Ancestors

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    Heathen Opinions On Christian Ancestors

    As Heathens, what is your esteem for your ancestors who were Christian? No, I'm not referring to parents or grandparents, but I mean those in the Medięval period. For instance, I was a hardcore Heathen Viking enthusiast before I discovered some of my ancestors were Crusaders and not just pilgrims or knights, but actual Kings of Jerusalem and Emperors of Constantinople. I wonder if you think of such brave warriors as ZOG tools playing a fool's game and that it was all for naught, or if there was any merit to "Christendom". For myself, I find it intellectually disagreeable, but emotionally captivating, so the sentiments remain mixed and that's very frustrating. Just looking for some resolution from others, if you've got any. Thanks!

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    Blood runs thicker than water, be that holy water or the stuff you have in your tap. I am forever grateful for the sacrifices my ancestors made in order to secure the existence of their people and its future. Whether they had a different concept of spirituality and sanctity than I do, makes little difference. Even my Heathen ancestors probably had a widely different conception of it. We're just a part of a continuous flow that is ever changing and evolving, and I don't see it as my place to judge my forebears for how they went about things, at a drastically different point in time, as long as they did what they saw best for their family and Nation.

    As for the crusaders, I probably won't have the same gratitude for their campaigns as a Christian would, but I still find their efforts commendable, not for religious reasons, but as an effective and necessary bulwark against the Arab encroachment into European lands.
    A nation is an organic thing, historically defined.
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    By and large, I agree with you. I'm supposed to be descended from Bjųrn Stallare in the paternal line and he was on the side of Olaf at Stiklestad. On one hand, I disagree with the Hairfair state and Christian church having ruined old Norway, but to be tied to their establishment leaves me conflicted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    By and large, I agree with you. I'm supposed to be descended from Bjųrn Stallare in the paternal line and he was on the side of Olaf at Stiklestad. On one hand, I disagree with the Hairfair state and Christian church having ruined old Norway, but to be tied to their establishment leaves me conflicted.
    How does one even trace one's lineage that far back?

    Also, if your father is from Norway, you have ancestors from both sides of that conflict.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    How does one even trace one's lineage that far back?

    Also, if your father is from Norway, you have ancestors from both sides of that conflict.
    Domesday Book, Runestones, Sagas and Iceland genealogy. My forefather in England was born in the Swedish court at Uppsala, where Bjųrn served Olaf and the farm estate where they lived has their names on a stone. When Bjųrn died, his son was still in Uppsala and got safe passage back by enlisting in the service of Olaf's half-brother, which meant as Varangians together--my forefather's name is also found in SW Finland near Åbo. My forefather had a very rare name and it is easy to trace his service in the army of Haršrįši by his landlordship of Yorkshire manors in 1066, right outside the battlefield of Stamford Bridge. I can even go back to Audbjųrn Konge, but no earlier than the Fjords, save for my R1a haplogroup meaning that our lineage isn't native to Norden like yours. Just passing through, lol.

    This research took me about 15 years on the Scandinavian side of things to combine with my English knowledge, which in and of itself took only about the same amount of time. DNA really helped validate my understanding of stone and paper, verifying descent wherever I had gaps in the record. I thought at first that I would be either R1b or I1, maybe even N1, fearing the lack of resolution between English and Danish if that were the case, but am relieved that I match Norwegian Viking Iceland samples through Dad's haplogroup and subclade.

    Yes, I know I should take a broader view of my family tree than Dad's directly male heritage, but it's easier than trying to focus on my whole ancestry going back to those times. I'm satisfied with Mum's line being DNA traced only to Cambridgeshire, because I was curious if it would be Germany, Belgium or Gaul.

    My wife is descended from King Kristian I by his daughter, mother of King James IV of Scots. I don't remember which is the most recent King of Norway I'm descended from, because the civil wars were very confusing to follow. I know that Olaf is my 30th great-grandfather, at least.

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    I aproached this issue from a personal perspective, as a heathen I need to train as a warrior to be of any value to "my tribe" so I joined the Australian Army, I got trained! My ancestors probably did the same and remember that the Valkyrie choose the Einhera from all sides of a battle! Is this just another Xtian guilt trip?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawx View Post
    I aproached this issue from a personal perspective, as a heathen I need to train as a warrior to be of any value to "my tribe" so I joined the Australian Army, I got trained! My ancestors probably did the same and remember that the Valkyrie choose the Einhera from all sides of a battle! Is this just another Xtian guilt trip?
    What do you mean by "guilt trip"? Like Thor of the Eider, I appreciate my Christian ancestors for being my blood, whilst understanding that my ideas on Heathenry are not likely the same as my pre-Christian ancestors. It's weird, but it means we're post-Heathen and post-Christian; there's no way to freshly identify with either era of ancestors in isolation or 100% conviction to the exclusion of either. I wish that Christianity never left the Syriac population or that Julian was able to reclaim Rome for Neoplatonism, that Persia kept Zoroastrianism instead of being forced into secondary Mohammedans as Shi'a. Our world would be better, but I cannot deny the God of War compelled my Crusader ancestors and it's hard not to see Germans having this understanding about Prussian ancestry. It would be funny if Jerusalem was merged into the Holy Roman/Austrian Empire (instead of Hungary) like how Prussia was into the German Empire.

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    I don't consider myself a Heathen, though I think Heathenism a healthy form of spirituality, but my opinion is that most people aren't theologians, or theoreticians. They just generally adhere to whatever the dominant milieu is they're born into without thinking much about it. The fact that so many pre-Christian cultural relics survived Christianization, that most people throughout the middle ages (across class lines) couldn't read the Bible and likely just grasped the most basic concept of what Christianity was, and then, as soon as it became widely accessibly, i.e. the Renaissance and further, started to abandon at least mainline Christianity for more niche variants like the 100 different Protestant denominations (most of which, admittedly, are even more Semitic than Catholicism, but are more like Judaism than Christianity is), or rationalism, or whatever eccentric occultism tells me most people never truly in their hearts bought anything but, as I said, a simplified version; that there's a supreme creator who rewards and punishes, and then attached assorted pre-Christian practices onto that concept. It's like Russians and communism. Not sure many people bought into the true orthodox theory of it, and once the system of power was removed, even if there's some Soviet nostalgia, the social views of most people definitely aren't Marxist.

    As for the Crusades, frankly (haha, Frank, *ba-dum-tss*) I think they were a waste of time. I admire the warrior spirit, but I think if it was really about defending Europe from the Muslims, more effort should have been spent on Iberia, rather than Rome and Byzantium trying to dupe each other (one hoping to get a bargaining chip to convert the other to Catholicism, the other hoping they'd snatch back their old Middle Eastern holdings for them by teasing them with the prospect of conversion) and using Germanic blood to oil the machine. Honestly, it's pretty depressing reading Bernard of Clairvaux bragging about French villages completely empty of men, and the wailing of "widows whose husbands are still alive." Not sure what sort of number that did on the birthrates but I imagine it was significant. Not to mention the intellectual class essentially becoming genetic dead ends by joining the Church (notwithstanding those who just ignored the rules on clerical celibacy, see my original point).

    There's a lot in Western history, from Rome, to the Crusades, to imperialism, that are romanticized but in reality are a bunch of damn spooks that have done more harm to the Germanic, and overall Nordic-Aryan race than good. Certain acts of valor, and the men themselves are often certainly admirable, but, just like the First World War, when viewed on a larger scale, was a whole lot of spilled blood for a whole lot of nothing.

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    @Reborn_Sun,

    Thanks for your POV. At this point, the way it seems to me, is that most of our ancestors were ignorant of liturgical languages and therefore, not genuinely Christian. Hence, the confusion of Reformation: Sure, the Evangelical Lutherans brought intelligibility to Christianity, but then taking it to heart meant awareness as to how close or far "Christendom" was to the founding documents of the Bible; with Calvinist Reformers trying to fully address those differences and close the gaps to no daylight between them; Anabaptist Radicals reserving the right to exercise discretion independent of vacillating authorities in a non-coercive society.

    Only with Renaissance and Enlightenment were our ancestors equipped with such liberties to engage in decisions about worship in the public square, as well as the legitimacy of engaging in any activities with respect for compatibility with the nations of states. After all, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin societies all engaged in editing the Bible and governing how they saw fit, so it's hypocritical to say that we are forbidden as Germanics from exercising equal jurisdiction over our own beliefs. Are we just animalistic barbarian savages disallowed our preferences like any other world civilization?

    Judging by the disinclination of our world to identification with Christianity, that is because the Bible itself reflects the interests of abject foreigners and there's no reason to prefer it versus any other external belief system. All would have been better had it never been forced upon the peoples of Europe. It's not like we want to be a Muslim monoculture, but putting a Christian one on a pedestal is the precedent upon which such an undertaking would be commenced. The same goes for Aryan Persians under the Ayatollah decrying Christians, instead of promoting Zoroastrianism and protecting Parsees who never gave up the faith and fire of their ancestors.

    If you believe Christendom should have happened, then you should see more of the same in the form of Islam by an evolutionary process. If you're opposed to the furtherance of Christendom in the West, you may rightly oppose Islam. Be consistent in how you deal with Jewish religions and their political manifestations. Since it's practically impossible to find hair or hide of a Jew in my family tree, I've no business being involved in their ideas.

    I'm willing to be courteous and open to Indo-European pagans and their ideas from both East and West, far more than Muslims or Christians and that is without any sectarianism regarding the Jews themselves. All of it's irrelevant to Indo-Europa, not just Jewry and/or Islam for us on a mere regional basis in the West, as Jewry and/or Christianity in the East. Both East and West Indo-Europa are usurped from indigenous paganism by order of Jewry and complacency--divided and conquered by Abraham worshipers at the expense of the Sky Father. Either take a stand or grab your ankles and bend over with your head in Middle Eastern sand.

    Furthermore, it once bothered me that the Archbishop of York and Presiding Bishop of the United States were both Negroes, but it's now amusing to pass off this spiritual sickness to the Darkness and just leave it behind. We can't possibly care about them being bogged down by the MENA volksgeist in Subsaharan life. Christians and Muslims both invested so much in converting them, why not just go back to normal? Are we bent or broken by Judaizing in the form of Joshua and Mohammed? If our spirits aren't broken, we can get back in shipshape, then be just all right.

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    I'm having serious trouble reconciling cognitive dissonance in my sentiments.

    1) I glorify Heathen ancestors that are known from time immemorial before the 11th century, having gone about the whole first millennium since Christianity arose without the latter. I have no realistic way to experience communal Heathenry for living out faith, so much of this adoration for the old life is moot beyond aesthetics, despite its purity and nobility of purpose.

    2) I defend Catholic ancestors that stood against the 16th century Reformation from the beginning with the Pilgrimage of Grace, Rising of the North and Gunpowder Plot, but only attended and tithed the established Protestant Church as a result of threats and extortions into the 19th century and yet, have English Catholic ancestors as recent as the upbringing of two grandparents, with my own personal investment beginning at 17 when it came to picking a church. I do not ascribe to the presumptions of Christianity's superiority, but value the traditionalist foundations of the Catholic Church in America associated with my English kin who founded Maryland as refuge from Protestant persecution--even if nonplussed with immigrants or foreigners to the point of feeling common cause with White Anglo-Saxon Protestant brethren (in truth, two of my grandparents come from Puritan rather than Papist origins, so my attitudes may seem bipolar in extremes).

    3) I find myself to be something of a 'politique': liking to be a part of traditional religious festivities, although with interest steeped far more in metaphysical contemplations in harmony with scientific observation, than rituals and creeds of mankind that may or may not honour ancestors' ancestors depending upon the choice of affiliation--think of being more of a Pythagorean or Socratic-Platonic-Aristotelian than an Olympian worshiper. If I make a choice between 1 or 2, this necessarily invalidates the other, but denying all the blood that makes me, either way and it's spiritually crippling to do so.

    4) I don't know what to do. I've felt conflicted every time bothering identifying with and practising religion, but despise atheism for its deconstructionist nihilism and agnosticism for its cowardly, wilfull ignorance.
    full stop

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