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Thread: Medical Policy Regarding Eugenics and Disability?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Have you ever even read anything about genetics, aside from diatribes about creating a superior race?
    Indeed, I have.

    You could have recessive genetic traits that are not expressed, you could be a carrier. Should we eliminate you? You could have the potential to give birth to an army of retards.
    If this hypothetical situation ever arose the child would not be born and I would never father another child. Let alone an army of "retards" as you so eloquently put it. One doesn't have to breed to benefit their race. Sometimes it is just as necessary not to have children.


    A women who is 25 has a 1 in 1000 chance of giving birth to a child with down syndrome. A 40 year old woman has a 1 in 30 chance. The longer you wait to have kids the more likely they will be retarded.
    And? I believe women should start families when they are young. A child needs a young vigerous mother and father.
    “Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs-Jon Jay, Federalist Papers

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    The world belongs to the strong and healthy, not the weak and sick. There shouldn't be state funding for people with disabilities and things like Down Syndrome. We should be spending more funds on finding cures for diseases which have a chance to be reversed altogether, not prolonging the lives of those suffering from diseases that can't be treated.
    I thought I'd chime in. Indeed, medicine itself as a scientific discipline in the modern age has become a dysgenic mechanism, as illnesses having hereditary basis are made less of a burden (thus increasing the reproductive success of afflicted):

    ...Dysgenic trends consist of medical advances that have preserved the lives of those with these disorders, enabling them to have children to whom thay may transmit the deleterious genes. This trend increases the prevalence of the genes in the population. These dysgenic medical advancements are of three principal types: surgical treatments, pharmacological treatments, and improved treatments of critically ill newborns.
    The first major dysgenic surgical treatment was developed in 1912 and consisted of an operation to correct congenital pyloric stenosis, a genetic defect in the functioning of the stomach. The next major surgical treatment was developed for retinoblastoma, a congenital eye cancer, consisting of cutting out the affected eyes. Later in the twentieth century a number of genetic disorders became surgically treatable by organ transplants, including those of the cornea, kidneys, liver, pancreas, heart, and lungs.
    The development pf pharmacological treatments has also contributed to dysgenics. For instance, the development of insulin in the 1920s made it possible to treat insulin-dependent diabetes, and the development of antibiotics in the mid-twentieth century made it possible to treat cystic fibrosis and other illnesses with some genetic component.
    From around 1970, medicine became increasingly successful in the treatment of critically ill newborn babies. Most of these babies are either premature, born between 22 and 25 weeks gestation, with very low birth weights, or else they have congenital disabilities that previously would have been fatal. Many of these babies can now be kept alive by intensive care, but their prognosis is often poor. They are likely either to die in childhood or, if they survive, to have various impairments and a poor quality of life. In the economically developed nations, about 6 percent of newborns are so critically ill that they fall into this category.
    --From "Eugenics - A Reassessment" by Richard Lynn

    I've thought of modern advances in medical treatment as that of putting a cup under a spot in the ceiling where it's dripping water. New holes - new cups, maybe an occasional pot. But what would be in place would be to patch the roof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    He exterminated himself because he wanted to do it before the Allies caught him, not because he considered himself inferior.
    A mind reader you are, even those minds of the dead, impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    From a documentary.
    Which one? It is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Moreover the Nazis were hypocrites because Hitler was 1/4 Jewish and Mengele's wife was also 1/4 Jewish.
    No, Hitler was fully Jewish, as was the whole NS leadership! eyes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flower View Post
    Where did you get this idea from?
    From my university.
    E.g. one of the reasons for Noma, seems to be malnutrition, something no one ever tested, if it was true, before Mengele
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    The world belongs to the strong and healthy, not the weak and sick. There shouldn't be state funding for people with disabilities and things like Down Syndrome. We should be spending more funds on finding cures for diseases which have a chance to be reversed altogether, not prolonging the lives of those suffering from diseases that can't be treated.
    The world belongs to those who want to live.

    I was born with Asthma. I died several times through having severe Asthma attacks. My Mothers arms were full of what she thought was 'a goner'

    Should I have been tossed into the Spartans abyss?

    I was born with an extreme propensity for acts of violence and depression.
    From an early age I have had to suffer intolerable fuckwits with Phd's thinking they knew my head and my reasons for being full of anger.

    Should I be locked away for the probable time I decide to act upon my primal urges?

    As I grew older, I became addicted to drugs and Alcohol. It broke up my relationships with my close family and destroyed all who knew me.
    As with a current situation I am in; I am again turning to alcohol and drugs to fill that big black hole that can't be filled.

    Should I be sectioned as a 'Lebensunwertes Leben?'



    They say that you should judge a society on how they treat their animals.
    I think it should be said "judge a society upon how they treat their old and sickly"

    Be honoured that you live in a world today where you don't have to leave your old and sick behind to be attacked by the Bears and the Wolves.
    For one day it may be you who is old and sickly.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    The world belongs to those who want to live.
    Sounds like a shallow phrase. Those who do not want to live, certainly are not long enough on this world to lay any claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I was born with Asthma. I died several times through having severe Asthma attacks. My Mothers arms were full of what she thought was 'a goner'

    Should I have been tossed into the Spartans abyss?
    This is a decisions your parents would have to make, they shouldn't expect any help from the state to prolong the life of the ill and the weak, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I was born with an extreme propensity for acts of violence and depression.
    From an early age I have had to suffer intolerable fuckwits with Phd's thinking they knew my head and my reasons for being full of anger.

    Should I be locked away for the probable time I decide to act upon my primal urges?
    Well, I am very skeptical when it comes to "behavioral disorders", it is simply personality, which is bad or good, depending on the circumstances (incl. genetic ones), I mean it is not the fault of the asshole to be an asshole, and still I don't have to invent illnesses for assholes to justify them or anything.
    However, generally speaking, people who can't control their primal urges are of the lower kind, and putting them away might be a good idea.
    Now when you say you decided to act on your primal urges, then this sounds paradox to my ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    As I grew older, I became addicted to drugs and Alcohol. It broke up my relationships with my close family and destroyed all who knew me.
    As with a current situation I am in; I am again turning to alcohol and drugs to fill that big black hole that can't be filled.

    Should I be sectioned as a 'Lebensunwertes Leben?'
    So it would have been better for the nation, the community and your family if you did indeed fall into the spartan abyss, and your parents would have tried again with a healthy child.

    Anyways, at least I wouldn't give you a license to marry and thus to have children of your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    They say that you should judge a society on how they treat their animals.
    I think it should be said "judge a society upon how they treat their old and sickly"
    This holds some truth, it should indeed be a goal of the socialized medicine to let people die peacefully and quick, I said that already twice, but it can't be repeated often enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Be honoured that you live in a world today where you don't have to leave your old and sick behind to be attacked by the Bears and the Wolves.
    For one day it may be you who is old and sickly.
    If I am old and sickly, I would want to die, what life would it be to be a breathing vegetable?
    Anyways, the truth does not depend on the personal situation.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Sounds like a shallow phrase. Those who do not want to live, certainly are not long enough on this world to lay any claim.
    It isn't shallow. It is, if anything, the truth. I want to live; therefore I have a claim to being on this Earth.

    If someone didn't want to live then I would happily recommend that person killed themselves. If they cannot go through with that then they will receive the care and attention of the community to see the error of their ways, rebalance the chemical imbalance afflicting their mind and be given a sense of love, worth and purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    This is a decisions your parents would have to make, they shouldn't expect any help from the state to prolong the life of the ill and the weak, though.
    It is not the choice of my parents. They are my guardians. If they want to cede their right to be my guardian then so be it but, they didn't. They kept me and nurtured me through to adulthood. They witnessed my Asthma disappearing and me becoming a vibrant and active member of my generation.

    I was the top fastest kid in my year. The only person able to beat me was a Scot with flame red hair. (bastard)
    I was fit and able to join the Army at 17, but was failed on my admittance to having smoked cannabis.
    I then get even more fitter and applied for the Marines. They were ready to accept me till I then failed the medical. My history showed asthma and they decided not to risk it.
    Their mistake as I still don't have any asthma throwbacks. I'm 28. That would have been 10 years of service. Ah well.

    I tried one last time, but was told it was noted I had asthma. "Sorry son"

    But I was not the weak child that could've been tossed into the Spartans pit. I became strong. I became active and healthy.
    There are many, many cases of these same scenarios.

    You cannot discard a life by judging the weak child which enters this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Well, I am very skeptical when it comes to "behavioral disorders", it is simply personality, which is bad or good, depending on the circumstances (incl. genetic ones), I mean it is not the fault of the asshole to be an asshole, and still I don't have to invent illnesses for assholes to justify them or anything.
    However, generally speaking, people who can't control their primal urges are of the lower kind, and putting them away might be a good idea.
    Now when you say you decided to act on your primal urges, then this sounds paradox to my ears.
    Your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Anyways, at least I wouldn't give you a license to marry and thus to have children of your own.
    I wouldn't require a license to marry. I'm sure I would just procreate and rear healthy children to just simply annoy the status quo.

    I'm all for authority controlling most of my life, but I will not bow to anyone deciding if and when I can marry.
    If I choose to marry I ask no one but the woman I love. If I decide to dress her in an outfit fit for a princess and place my hand into hers and vow to be with her for eternity, then no stuffy bureaucrat can say otherwise.

    Love, however ill fitting and repulsive it may be at times, is free and uncontrollable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    If I am old and sickly, I would want to die, what life would it be to be a breathing vegetable?
    I would want you to live.

    You can teach the next generations your wisdom and your experiences.
    You can regale them with your loves, hopes and dreams. You would have so much to give and so little to take from the younger generation.

    If you were that uncomfortable in life and couldn't face the pain and wanted to die, then I am sure we could arrange for your freedom to end it all.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    It isn't shallow. It is, if anything, the truth.
    It is truth, a tautology, that's why it is a shallow phrase, even if it is a true one.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    If they cannot go through with that [suicide] then they will receive the care and attention of the community to see the error of their ways, rebalance the chemical imbalance afflicting their mind and be given a sense of love, worth and purpose.
    If they have the will, but can't do it, it lacks courage, cowards.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    It is not the choice of my parents.
    I know, but it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I was the top fastest kid in my year.
    Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I tried one last time, but was told it was noted I had asthma. "Sorry son"
    Too risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    But I was not the weak child that could've been tossed into the Spartans pit.
    Then who would do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    There are many, many cases of these same scenarios.
    I don't know any.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    You cannot discard a life by judging the weak child which enters this world.
    I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Your opinion.
    That people who cannot control their primal urges are of the low kind?
    That's what puts us above all other animals, reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I wouldn't require a license to marry.
    You would.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I'm sure I would just procreate and rear healthy children to just simply annoy the status quo.
    Then you just have to keep it a secret, or face the consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I'm all for authority controlling most of my life, but I will not bow to anyone deciding if and when I can marry.
    This is of course just a mind experiment, however, you couldn't do much against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Love, however ill fitting and repulsive it may be at times, is free and uncontrollable.
    We are back at controlling primal urges I see

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I would want you to live.

    You can teach the next generations your wisdom and your experiences.
    You can regale them with your loves, hopes and dreams. You would have so much to give and so little to take from the younger generation.
    There are surely things the elderly can do, and this is why they get taken care of by the community.
    However when you said "sickly", this implied to me a state of vegetation (at least the German equivalent "siechen", is very clear in this regard).
    And when it comes to a state where you are totally dependent on others, this is something no free man could endure.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    If you were that uncomfortable in life and couldn't face the pain and wanted to die, then I am sure we could arrange for your freedom to end it all.
    That's what I said.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    I think this argument could go on for eternity and end up with one of us dwelling beneath a bridge.

    But, out of my own interest I would like to give a scenario to you.

    You and your partner procreate.
    9 months later (give or take) you are blessed with the arrival of your Daughter. Weighing in at 6lbs 7ounces. She is perfect. Her little fingers are so delicate and look like they would break even if you were to just touch them with your warm lips. Lying there on her Mothers breast, you can see her looking tentatively around at the new sensations she is experiencing. Bright lights. Blurred figures. Loud noises.
    You take the first ever picture of your baby girl.

    *Flash* Attachment 4666

    Doesn't she look beautiful! Lying there all helpless and vulnerable. Her whole life ahead of her; with you as her guardian. You as her rock at times of trouble. Together till the day she leaves to rear her own family. And even then she will still come back to you and your arms.

    In the hospital you are daydreaming about her first smile,her first cruise around the room; her first steps on her two feet; her first words; her first birthday. You even think of the excitement she will have at the arrival of her little sibling in years to come.

    Attachment 4667
    Attachment 4668
    Attachment 4670
    Attachment 4669

    But wait! What is this? The Nurse has just come over to you and whispered gently and hurriedly within your year that there is something wrong.

    "What can be wrong?" you say out loud. You rush over to where the nurse has hurriedly scurried over too.
    She points at the screen and there in black and white is a the words '
    Tay-Sachs Disease'.

    Your heart falls below your stomach line. You know what will be happening now. The Doctor comes through the door. Goes up to your wife holding your delicate little baby girl. Your Daughter, and calmly says "Your baby is a defect. You must hand her to me for destruction"

    -------------


    I can only guess the one sound that would be heard in that room. I wish to never hear it. And I wish for not one soul on this Earth to ever have to hear it.

    That sound would be the sound of a Mother screaming in agony as her baby is taken from her arms all in the name of perfection.

    You watch as your precious daughter is carried past you. You take one last look at those beautiful eyes and those delicate little fingers that look as if they would break at the slightest touch of your lips.

    And you do nothing.

    Or would you?
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    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    On the other hand, whenever one child is disabled, the parents (and usually the rest of the family) spend all their time, energy, and resources taking care of the retard.

    It's the same problem as with socialist medical systems in general: if you have a society which devotes enormous resources towards those at the bottom of the natural order, society will deteriorate over time because those at the middle and top of the natural order are being deprived of these resources.
    Contact Congress on immigration
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    If you have a society which devotes enormous resources towards those at the bottom of the natural order, society will deteriorate over time because those at the middle and top of the natural order are being deprived of these resources.
    But if you strike a good balance which we do......

    Societies do not overly suffer through accommodating their 'weaker' members of society. If anything, it makes them stronger.

    The Greeks and Romans, as well many other European societies, did very little to accommodate the elderly or infirm, choosing to kill them as the ultimate cure for their ailments. Hospitals were unheard of in common history, save for the medic’s tent in the battlefield, until about AD 399 when a hospice was set up for the sick and needy by St. Fabiola near Rome.

    However, the Irish had hospitals by the time Christianity came to Ireland. Legend tells of Queen Macha Mong Rhuadh who set up a hospital called Broin Bherg (House of Sorrows) in Emain Macha in BC 377, which remained in operation until it was destroyed in AD 22.

    The Brehon Laws stated that a hospital was to be available in all tribal localities. It was to have four doors and be placed near a stream of running water and be maintained by the local assembly of people, free of taxation. Caretakers were hired to keep away stray dogs and to ensure that the patients were not disturbed by anyone who could cause any problems (including nagging women!).

    The Laws also detailed provisions for sick maintenance in the way of costs and who was to pay for it. There was even a form of workers’ compensation in the form of the Law of Torts, which stated that “Full sick maintenance [must be paid] to a worker injured for the sake of unnecessary profit…”

    Strict rules were also applied to practitioners of medicine, which are similar to the laws regarding physicians and medical professionals today. A physician was liable for any exacerbation of the patient’s condition under his care and could essentially be “sued for malpractice”. Physicians were even allowed to take occasional sabbaticals to upgrade their knowledge.

    This alone tells us that the Celts had very strong values when it came to human life and life in general. The sick were treated with due care and strict laws were in place to ensure that care was optimal.

    The Celts also had very strong values when it came to personal responsibility. Offences against the person carried consequence and required compensation. The compensation was calculated through a very complex classification of a person’s rank in society.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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