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Thread: Kieser Training - Strength Training, from Switzerland?!

  1. #11
    Senior Member Leonhardt's Avatar
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    Large major muscles are pointless without conditioned stabiliser muscles. Free-weights and cables are the only ways to ensure a balanced development.
    Good point. The switch from the machine bench to the free weight bench can be dramatic.

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    Thanks Jaeger and Cythraul.

    Bikram Yoga is my main interest at the moment, but I will be switching back to ashtanga vinyasa yoga fairly soon. Weight training is not really my interest at all, but I am so sedentary in my daily life that I feel that I need to have a go at my body now and again, so that I feel a bit sore, lest I waste away entirely, despite my efforts in hatha yoga, so it is really just perfunctory, although that might change.

    I think that my body needs a bit of a shock twice a week. I tried with free weights before and it whacked my body out for yoga. I was following the Iyengar method at the time, which was very time consuming and exhausting and restorative in equal proportions.

    After doing lunges one day there would be no possibility of my performing a proper standing sequence, and the sciatica could easily return if I were to bear weight on an accidentally curved spine, which happened more than once or twice, as I am rather flexible and disproportionately weak around the core. I cannot really lift anything particularly heavy up from the floor without a small risk of twanging, no matter how much I tuck my tailbone under, engage the abdominals, and even the perineum, I WILL end up twanging!!!

    I do not think that the Kieser people are promising the world, but they are promising to set me exercises which will not set off my sciatica or immobilise me through exhaustion all week so that I cannot practise yoga. (Actually, I do not know if I will be exhausted or not, but I think that what they do it quite mild, just enough to stimulate)

    Nevertheless, I would probably want to progress to free weights after a while, but experience has shown me that ... SNAP ... and I become crunchy and sciatic again!

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    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    One of my favorite articles from Muscle and Fitness was by a doctor whose opinion was that the joints and tendons are not designed to go beyond 90 degrees (right angle). Beyond that they get shearing forces. Good form and sensible weight amounts should avoid most injuries, I agree.
    joints are designed to go to whatever angle they will go to without being injured, and the tendons, ligaments and muscles in them are designed specifically for those joints. how could you even apply the 90 degree concept to the majority of joints, which move in multiple planes of motion and in circular patterns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    joints are designed to go to whatever angle they will go to without being injured, and the tendons, ligaments and muscles in them are designed specifically for those joints. how could you even apply the 90 degree concept to the majority of joints, which move in multiple planes of motion and in circular patterns?
    I think that the point is that it is risky to bear heavy training weights on muscles and put them through their full range of motion, which anatomically speaking are never designed to to take our bones beyond 90 degrees in any direction. Multiple planes of motion are facilliated by different muscle on the same joint, working on a different plane from 90 to maybe 0.

    Think of the arms:

    Are there not (two) different sets of muscle which take the arms from 180 to 90 and then from 90 to 0? Hang on... perhaps they work over degrees lesser than that like 45 to 0.

    I am not an expert on anatomy, but if I were to design the human body from scratch, I would consider it more efficient to design it that way.

    I mean really, what sort of Kermit the Frog would have muscles which work from over 180 degrees, except in peripheral capacity.

    I am just guessing, but I think that I am probably right.

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    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortis_in_Arduis View Post
    Think of the arms:

    1) Are there not (two) different sets of muscle which take the arms from 180 to 90 and then from 90 to 0? Hang on... perhaps they work over degrees lesser than that like 45 to 0.

    I am not an expert on anatomy, but if I were to design the human body from scratch, I would consider it more efficient to design it that way.

    2) I mean really, what sort of Kermit the Frog would have muscles which work from over 180 degrees, except in peripheral capacity.

    I am just guessing, but I think that I am probably right.
    1) Absolutely not. The biceps and brachialis are the primary arm flexors throughout the full range of motion at the elbow joint, and the triceps is the primary extensor.

    2) Most poeples knee joints extend slightly past 180 degrees.

    3) If you were to do say curls for a few years, only going down to 90 degrees, after a while your tendons would shorten up and you would be unable to straighten your arm out all the way. I've seen it happens. You would literally cause yourself to have a minor deformity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    1) Absolutely not. The biceps and brachialis are the primary arm flexors throughout the full range of motion at the elbow joint, and the triceps is the primary extensor.

    2) Most poeples knee joints extend slightly past 180 degrees.

    3) If you were to do say curls for a few years, only going down to 90 degrees, after a while your tendons would shorten up and you would be unable to straighten your arm out all the way. I've seen it happens. You would literally cause yourself to have a minor deformity.
    I have seen people who have curled up as well. Hunched over from boxing/canoeing/sit-ups and it is freakish.

    Surely there are different parts of the muscles which have specialized in different parts of the range though?

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    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortis_in_Arduis View Post
    I have seen people who have curled up as well. Hunched over from boxing/canoeing/sit-ups and it is freakish.

    Surely there are different parts of the muscles which have specialized in different parts of the range though?
    Nope, the smaller stablizer muscles involved in different parts of the range of motion may differ, but the prime mover does not. The contractile units in muscle tissue are fibers which run the entire course of the muscle, and can only be turned on or off like a light switch.

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    Senior Member Leonhardt's Avatar
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    joints are designed to go to whatever angle they will go to without being injured, and the tendons, ligaments and muscles in them are designed specifically for those joints. how could you even apply the 90 degree concept to the majority of joints, which move in multiple planes of motion and in circular patterns?
    The article I read was over 10 years ago in a magazine, so I have to look for related articles on the internet. It looks like it was an upper body article, and squatting deep is OK.
    To squat deep, or not to squat deep? That is the question.
    John T Timmerman
    http://poznaisebya.com/newsengall/bu...55-07-143.html
    http://www.bodybuildinguniverse.com/routine10.htm
    As a 2005 issue of the NSCA's Performance Training Journal confirmed, shoulder injuries are one of the more common sports injuries.

    The authors of the NSCA paper offer several modifications of common exercises. If you've been diagnosed with shoulder instability or have frequent shoulder pain when lifting, consider using these modifications.

    * Bench presses Normally, when bench pressing, the bar is lowered all the way to the middle chest. This causes the elbows to drop below the level of the body and places excessive stress on the shoulder joints. If you have shoulder problems, lower the bar only until your elbows are bent to 90-degree angles.

    * Barbell shoulder presses If you have shoulder problems, do not perform barbell shoulder presses behind the neck, because this lift can create extreme shearing forces throughout the shoulder joints. Instead, perform your shoulder presses only to the front or with dumbbells. Also, avoid lowering the bar or dumbbells below the point where your elbows are even with your shoulders.

    * Chinups and pulldowns If you have shoulder problems, do not perform chinups or lat pulldowns behind the neck, which also can create extreme shearing forces. As with shoulder presses, perform your chinups and pulldowns only to the front.

    * Dips When doing dips, most bodybuilders lower their bodies as low as possible. This extreme range of motion can create shearing forces on the shoulder joints. To make dips safe and effective, lower your body until the elbows are bent to no more than 90-degree angles.

    --Jim Stoppani
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...3/ai_n16033979

    This article has some advise for the lunge. It has to be long to keep the knee at least at 90 degrees.
    The 7 Deadly Sins of Strength Training
    by Diet Detective Editorial Staff
    http://www.dietdetective.com/content/view/864/157/

    Five Tips for the Primary Lift Series
    http://www.gotstrengthblog.com/?page_id=91
    This author recommends light squatting for young people.
    An exercise professional should not confuse sports extremes with fitness.
    http://www.gainingweight.info/can-sq...or-your-knees/

  9. #19
    Senior Member Leonhardt's Avatar
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    When I was thinking about this 90 degree idea, I was thinking about extensors, and not flexors.
    I do not think it applies to every single lift either, but to many of them to help avoid injuries. I was thinking closely along to what the NSCA paper says, and also the information on lunges.

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