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Thread: Socialized Medicine

  1. #31
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    The problem with socialized anything is that you don't have much of any recourse if you don't get what you need. 6 months to wait for a procedure? If you got told that in the US, you would simply go to another doctor, something you can't do in countries with socialized medicine.

    I don't know why Cuba keeps getting offered up as a 'success of socialized medicine' when they can't even supply basic necessities:
    If people weren't so avidly anti socialist here they would have seen that my reference to Cuba was based on the cost of a social medicine system IE a poor country with a comparable healthcare system to some far richer ones

    The rabid anti Cubanism expressed mainly by the Americans should give them the answers to why they are so hated around the world. Dinosaurs of the Cold War mentality. World opinion is against you on Cuba and has been for a long time. Look at the votes in the UN and so on concerning the trade embargo . The votes are like 148 to 3 in favour of ending the blockade. Israel is the only country in the world that has consistantly supported the US in this matter , not surprisingly.

    How can you expect any sympathy concerning the events of September the eleventh whilst you support and defend such barbarity towards others ?


    SOV , you know I could put many, many articles that would criticize the US healthcare system but what's the point ?

    And to criticize them for lack of medicines whilst ignoring the effects of the trade embargo which is the reason for the shortages in the first place just shows how much of a biased perspective you present on the subject

    For a " preservation " site what is becoming more and more apparent to me here is that most of the regular posters seek nothing more than to " preserve " the right to exploit , thinking about their pockets and purses. Everything else seems to be secondary............... hence the many negative views on social medicine.

    To claim to be " nationalist " and not to care about whether your countrymen are dying through lack of medical treatment smacks of BS to me.


    Oswiu............. it's not such an " odd " comparison if you take into account the context of that comparison which was concerned with making the point that if a poor country can have a decent healthcare system it is ridiculous to suggest that a far wealthier country finds the cost of a social medicine system too much to afford. That was the end of the comparison .

    If we want to do more realistic comparisons to Cuba we have to look at the healthcare systems of countries of approximately the same income. Other Third Worlders if you like............. I'm more than happy to go down this route as it would support what I am saying even more dramatically
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

  2. #32
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Nobody dies because of lack of basic medical treatment in the US, the problem comes when everyone thinks they are entitled to procedures that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for free. Most of the new medical procedures and drugs originate from here, and the companies that develop them couldn't do so unless they were guaranteed some kind of return. If socialist systems like Cuba are so great, why haven't they invented any new drugs or procedures?

    The problem with socialized medicine is that it provides no incentive for people to put more effort into upgrading the system, nor does it have any incentive for people to regulate their own behavior and limit how much they attempt to take from the system. A socialized medicine system is mainly capable of shuffling around resources, not of creating any new resources, and eventually the system decays and falls apart.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Nobody dies because of lack of basic medical treatment in the US, the problem comes when everyone thinks they are entitled to procedures that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for free. Most of the new medical procedures and drugs originate from here, and the companies that develop them couldn't do so unless they were guaranteed some kind of return.
    No they die of cold in the parks outside the Whitehouse because they are homeless but that's another thread entirely.

    It seems an obsession for some Americans to compare every country to their own so I will phrase it differently this time.

    How many countries , with an income approx the same as Cuba , have a healthcare system that is worthy of comparison ?

    What about infant mortality rates and immunisation programmes and so on ?

    Now consider this.

    Cuba is the only nation that has had economic strangulation to contend with ( by the US and its cattle) at the very same time. Medical supplies , which you skillfully avoid talking about , have been directly affected by the said trade embargo and have played a major role in undermining Cuban healthcare. That's the desired goal of them

    The very fact that Cuban healthcare is in anyway comparable to richer industrialized nations is remarkable in itself. You just can't ( won't ) see that.

    If Cuban healthcare is so good why don't they come up with medical discoveries themselves ?

    Well they do........................which will be a bitter pill for you to swallow no doubt.

    Do you really believe the mainstream US media would cover any aspect of Cuban industry that is enlightening western scientists ?

    How could they rely on you to toe the party line if such things were common knowledge in the US ? eyes:

    Anyway.............

    Recent Cuban discoveries on the Hepatitis C virus

    Havana, October 27. Recent discoveries at the Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology (CIGB), Havana, Cuba, on the life cycle of the Hepatitis C virus (HCV) have contributed to a better understanding of this infectious disease. Cuban scientists have found for the first time nucleocapsid-like particles in the nucleus of hepatocytes from a chronically HCV-infected patient. The HCV core protein was also detected in the nucleus and the nucleolus of hepatocytes [Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 2003, Oct 10:310 (1): 54-58]. Detection and localization of the HCV antigens in the liver could be important to study the host-virus interactions at the cellular level.
    full article......http://gndp.cigb.edu.cu/NEWS/News%20...atitis%20C.htm

    or


    HAVANA -- Cuban researchers have developed the first synthetic vaccine against a bacteria that causes pneumonia and meningitis, a breakthrough aimed at lowering the cost of immunizing children in poorer countries.
    The vaccine protects against haemophilus influenzae type B, a bacteria that causes upper respiratory infections, mainly in children up to five years of age. The disease is a leading cause of meningitis, an infection of the brain and spinal cord coverings that can cause brain damage, deafness or death.

    The research on the new vaccine, which has already been tested and put into production in Cuba, will be presented on Wednesday to experts from the world over at a biotechnology congress in Havana.

    This is the first vaccine for humans made with a chemically produced antigen, Cuban scientists said. The available, conventional vaccine is made using a difficult and more costly process of growing antigens in a bacterial culture.

    "It took us six years," said Dr. Vicente Verez, head of the University of Havana's Synthetic Antigens Laboratory. "But what could be more precious for society than to have healthy 2-month-old babies," he said.
    more............http://www.globalexchange.org/countr...Meds/1513.html

    Not bad for third worlders , eh ?

    For the less biased that might be reading this there follows a review of Cuban healthcare by an international medical journal and it is quite revealing about how the mentality of the social medicine advocates differs from those who support private healthcare.

    a snippet

    The Program’s Impact

    The National Program, begun in 1962, has resulted in internationally noteworthy results over the last 42 years, including the elimination of the following diseases:

    Poliomyelitis (1962)

    Diphtheria (1979)

    Measles (1993)

    Rubella and Mumps (1995)

    The following severe clinical forms were also eliminated:

    Neonatal tetanus (1972)

    Pertussis (Whooping Cough) (1994)
    full
    http://www.medicc.org/publications/m...spotlight.html

    ^^^ These people are medical people who are, lets' just say, outside the US propaganda bubble.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

  4. #34
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    No they die of cold in the parks outside the Whitehouse because they are homeless but that's another thread entirely.
    Of what, a drug overdose?

    It seems an obsession for some Americans to compare every country to their own so I will phrase it differently this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    How many countries , with an income approx the same as Cuba
    There's the problem right there: Why does Cuba have the income level it does? Even if they have a relatively high level of health care for for countries of their income level, they lag behind in other areas to compensate for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    have been directly affected by the said trade embargo
    Weren't you arguing in other threads that free trade with the US negatively effects 3rd world countries, and now trying to claim lack of trade with the US negatively effects this country? Which is it? Is trade between 3rd world countries and the US good or bad?

    Socialist countries can do well in one or two areas by directing all of the country's resources towards that end, for example North Korea has a powerful military, but on the whole a system which lacks incentives to produce or restrict consumption will deteriorate over time.

    Regarding the earlier point about insurance companies hiring people whose purpose is to deny claims: how else are you supposed to prevent fraud? Is it any wonder that in the US it is the socialist systems (Medicare&Medicaid) which are the most subject to fraud?
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  5. #35
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Of what, a drug overdose?
    Well maybe the drugs in question are the only drugs all Americans have access to.

    There's the problem right there: Why does Cuba have the income level it does? Even if they have a relatively high level of health care for for countries of their income level, they lag behind in other areas to compensate for it.
    No ,they have a high level of healthcare even in comparison to much richer countries.
    So in what areas do the Cubans " lag behind " when compared to countries of a similar income ?


    Weren't you arguing in other threads that free trade with the US negatively effects 3rd world countries, and now trying to claim lack of trade with the US negatively effects this country? Which is it? Is trade between 3rd world countries and the US good or bad?
    Yep , " free trade " agreements between third world nations and the US , imo ( and many others ) has a history of robbing the people of the third world nations.
    It is not lack of trade with the US that is the problem for Cuba. It is the lack of trade with other nations that is the problem. Surely , you are aware that the US bullies any nation that wishes to trade with Cuba ? That's the problem.
    Even sections of the US business community are against the embargo imposed upon Cuba not to mention business interests within the EU.
    Socialist countries can do well in one or two areas by directing all of the country's resources towards that end, for example North Korea has a powerful military, but on the whole a system which lacks incentives to produce or restrict consumption will deteriorate over time.
    North Korea also falls into the catagory of countries that have US imposed trade sanctions. There are always such problems for countries the US seeks to destroy simply because they wish to employ a different ideology to the US.
    It's a balancing act. Cuba chose to develop healthcare and education first , North Korea has chosen defence as the priority. 1980's Nicaragua tried to use its funds for social development but due to the attacks by the US it had to divert those funds towards defence.
    Regarding the earlier point about insurance companies hiring people whose purpose is to deny claims: how else are you supposed to prevent fraud? Is it any wonder that in the US it is the socialist systems (Medicare&Medicaid) which are the most subject to fraud?
    It's not surprising that you have chosen to revert to earlier points raised now that your most recent point concerning Cuba's lack of contribution to medical research has been debunked. The silence was deafening.

    As regards fraud , if healthcare is free and universal there is no need to become a fraudster.

    Seeing as we are now going backwards I would like to pick you up on your claim that nobody in the US dies through lack of healthcare.

    05/22/2002 - Updated 04:54 AM ET
    18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance

    By Steve Sternberg, USA TODAY

    WASHINGTON — More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.

    The 193-page report, "Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," examines the plight of 30 million — one in seven — working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care.

    About 10 million children lack insurance; elderly Americans are covered by Medicare.

    It is the second in a planned series of six reports by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examining the impact of the nation's fragmented health system. The IOM is a non-profit organization of experts that advises Congress on health issues.

    Overall, the researchers say, 18,314 people die in the USA each year because they lack preventive services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care.
    Sourcehttp://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...nce-deaths.htm

    So who is telling the truth, SOV ?
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

  6. #36
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Well maybe the drugs in question are the only drugs all Americans have access to.
    Nearly every town in the US has access to these:

    http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catal...romPageCatId=0

    The list of eligible drugs in the $4 Prescriptions Program — available at Wal-Mart, Neighborhood Market and Sam's Club pharmacies nationwide — represents up to 95 percent of the prescriptions written in the majority of therapeutic categories. The affordable prices for these prescriptions are available for commonly prescribed dosages for up to 30-day or 90-day supplies. Ask your pharmacist or physician about switching to 90-day prescriptions for appropriate medications.


    The same place offers 90 day prescriptions for most of these for $10. So, for most prescription drugs, anyone in the country can walk in and with little to no wait pick them up, for a cost of $40/year. Mind you, this it the total cost of supplying the medication for one year. How many socialist countries can supply a year's worth of drugs to someone for $40, when you factor in the costs to not only produce and supply the drugs, but administer the program, collect the taxes to pay for it, administer the tax collection program, etc?


    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    No ,they have a high level of healthcare even in comparison to much richer countries.
    So in what areas do the Cubans " lag behind " when compared to countries of a similar income ?
    The economy as a whole is performing poorly, most people there don't own cars, they don't have much in the way of food or entertainment options, or much of anything else for that matter.




    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Yep , " free trade " agreements between third world nations and the US , imo ( and many others ) has a history of robbing the people of the third world nations.
    It is not lack of trade with the US that is the problem for Cuba. It is the lack of trade with other nations that is the problem. Surely , you are aware that the US bullies any nation that wishes to trade with Cuba ? That's the problem.
    Even sections of the US business community are against the embargo imposed upon Cuba not to mention business interests within the EU...
    North Korea also falls into the catagory of countries that have US imposed trade sanctions.
    Well yeah, business interests tend to be in favor of free trade. But that still doesn't answer, why is free trade blamed for the problems of countries with with the US/EU etc trades with freely, and lack of free trade blamed in the case of Cuba and North Korea? If Cuba's national resources are not being 'looted' by international trade, and socialism is such a great economic system, why don't Cuba and North Korea have an economies similar to South Korea, Tawain, or Singapore? You in other posts blamed international trade with the US/EU for poverty in Africa, why aren't Cuba and North Korea prospering due to the lack of 'exploitive' trade with the US/EU?


    It's not surprising that you have chosen to revert to earlier points raised now that your most recent point concerning Cuba's lack of contribution to medical research has been debunked. The silence was deafening.

    Medical Patents Granted 1996-2000
    http://www.crisisstates.com/download...en(table2).pdf

    USA: 18251
    Cuba: 8


    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Seeing as we are now going backwards I would like to pick you up on your claim that nobody in the US dies through lack of healthcare.

    Sourcehttp://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...nce-deaths.htm
    Few, if any, people die from lack of basic healthcare

    From the article you posted:

    The estimated death toll includes about 1,400 people with high blood pressure, 400 to 600 with breast cancer and 1,500 diagnosed with HIV.
    HIV is not something that can be cured, and while effects can be mitigated to some extent, it is certainly resource-intensive to provide no matter who picks up the bill, as is any type of cancer. Also, HIV and 'high blood pressure' (caused by obesity/eating bad foods and lack of exercise) are 'lifestyle' health problems, if someone has an unhealthy lifestyle it is extremely unfair to take resources away from those with healthy lifestyles to care for those with unhealthy lifestyles. Figures for what exactly the rest of those people died of are not listed, I suspect they are of serious injuries and illnesses requiring complicated procedures that are not even available in other countries. What we don't have here is hundreds or thousands of people dying in disease epidemics, people dying after accidents because there's no ambulance or hospital available, etc.

    As to the amount of people without health insurance, many of these are younger and lower middle class people who have the ability to purchase health insurance but don't want to. I was offered the ability to purchase health insurance by some of my employers over the years and I opted not to take it, what pisses me off though is the college I am attending forces me to buy health insurance for $2500/year, money I would like to have to spend on other things, I have never once used it, and even if I did chances are it would be well below the combined $7500 I have spend so far on the insurance. Even if it was provided 'free', I'd be forced to pay into that system whenever I was working full time, not only for myself but for everyone else in the system, even if they weren't working and never had any intention to.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    Your thoughts? (I'm anticipating one of the more left leaning discussions that would take place around here, but we'll see.)
    The problem is the Government, whatever it controls becomes nuisance, Obamascare is a good example.
    ....and I'm adding other problems like all the illegals freeloaders.................

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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    The problem is the Government, whatever it controls becomes nuisance, Obamascare is a good example.
    ....and I'm adding other problems like all the illegals freeloaders.................
    Yeah. We know all about how working people get screwed cause we don't get any medical help. They claim we make too much money.
    Not all in life is at it appears to be.

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