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Thread: The Genetic Map of Europe

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    Genetic Map of Europe Shows Little Diversity

    Interesting:
    Two international research teams have compiled a genetic map of Europe, revealing little genetic diversity between the various nationalities. But the differences are enough to tell which country an individual comes from.

    The data, published by Classic Biology, reveal a genetic barrier between the Finns and the rest of Europe. This is not surprising because the relatively small Finnish population for generations lived nomadic lives almost isolated from the rest of Europe.

    A second genetic barrier separates Italy from the other countries, which may reflect the role of the Alps in impeding free flow of people between Italy and the rest of Europe.

    A mirror of migration patterns

    The researchers found that the genetic map closely resembled the pattern of three major human migrations mainly from the south. Southern Europeans revealed more genetic diversity than Scandinavians, British and Irish, mirroring the migration waves of early humans from Africa about 35,000 years ago, post-ice age expansion 20,000 years ago and the population movements driven by farming methods emanating from the Middle East about 10,000 years ago.

    According to John Novembre, a US scientist who led one of the studies, the data "tells us that geography matters."

    Genetic differences can be traced to the birthplaces of Europeans. The map depicts a Spanish-Portuguese cluster to the southwest below that of France. The Italians are further southeast, while the Danish, Dutch, French and German clusters are centrally positioned.

    The researchers are confident that they can soon pinpoint to a few hundred kilometres the ancestry of individual Europeans.

    Such data can be useful for forensic medicine but also for anyone in the US, Australia or Canada wishing to trace their European ancestry.
    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...655263,00.html

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    It is seriously interesting how little overlap there is between some populations.

    Another poster will be able to link this post to the extrapolated map of Europe from the same research which was posted earlier.

    The overlaps which were present correlated with what I imagine to be the characteristics of the European nations, with some overlap between Austrian and the Czech republic, and very little overlap between Poland and Germany.

    Yet again, this data will correlate with the distributions of the sub-racial groupings defined by physical anthropologists, which should be very heartening to us, in our goodly fight against the poisonous pseudoscientists who reside in such disciplines (or perhaps pseudosciences) as psychiatry, psychology, sociology and social anthropology.

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    Senior Member Jute's Avatar
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    Genetic Map of Europe

    Comments:
    --Notice the Finns fit nicely with the rest of Northern Europe on "Eigenvector 1" (whatever that means). There is some horizontal stretching on the chart, exaggerating Finnish difference on "Eigenvector 2" (whatever that means). The horizontal-axis is 10cm=.20 units. The vertical-axis is 10cm=.14 units.

    --I doubt [m]any us really understands the meaning of this chart or are in a position to judge its merit, so we are placing a lot of trust on the compilers. Sort of like a priest-aristocracy that interprets the Word of God for the masses, and what can we do but accept it? However, Something is instinctually wrong with the idea that a Norwegian is "just as distant" from the darkest of South-Italians as to the average Finn. Logically absurd. (Another similar study showed a much different chart with different ethnic-interrelatedness implications. It is all in the presentation.)

    --If the Baltic Germans still existed [If Stalin had not destroyed their genepool in 1945], and if the other states on the eastern shore of the Baltic were tested, we would see the Finns fitting much better on this chart. The way it is now is really like testing every Northern European country and Portugal, then saying "Portugal does not fit in Europe!"

    --I wonder how concerned the testers of these 2,500 people were with only getting people with as close to 100% local ancestry as possible [i.e. all 8 great-grandparents local-born]. Otherwise this whole project is almost worthless from the start. A few persons of recent non-English origin (incl. even one grandparent) might explain the bizarre UK result. (How can be it be further away than Ireland?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jute View Post
    --I wonder how concerned the testers of these 2,500 people were with only getting people with as close to 100% local ancestry as possible [i.e. all 8 great-grandparents local-born]. Otherwise this whole project is almost worthless from the start. A few persons of recent non-English origin (incl. even one grandparent) might explain the bizarre UK result. (How can be it be further away than Ireland?).
    While I haven't read this study (written by Genopriests ), others that I have read always make note of trying to acquire genetic samples from individuals whose great-x grandparents (usually great-grandparents) had been born with a reasonably short radius of the area in question (10 or 20 miles, say).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jute View Post

    Genetic Map of Europe

    (How can be it be [..that the UK is..] further away than Ireland?).
    How about this? Given that the UK population is 10-15 times that of the republic of Ireland, it might be expected that it would contain greater degree of internal variation. However if you examine the graph carefully you will see that the bulk of the UK is not in fact farther from continental Europe than Ireland is but actually extends eastward somewhat beyond the Irish outline.

    The graph appears to be consistent with the view that Ireland was populated in the distant past by people coming from continental Europe, most of whom arrived via Britain. This would explain how the UK seems to contain almost all of the Irish variation within it.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhobot View Post
    Everyone knows that southern Italy was colonized by Greeks (Magna Graecia); less well known is that the colonists were largely from southern Greece (Euboea and the Peloponnese). Greek-speakers continued to migrate into southern Italy, particularly Sicily and Calabria, during the period of East Roman rule (especially during the Slavic invasions of Greece), and Greek dialect has persisted to this day in some villages of Calabria and Apulia.
    Apulia was not a part of Magna Grecia: unhabitants were Illyrian (Japigi, Messapi).

    Greek dialect in some villeges derives from greek-byzantin immigration (post-Roman Empire)

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    If the Baltic Germans still existed [If Stalin had not destroyed their genepool in 1945], and if the other states on the eastern shore of the Baltic were tested, we would see the Finns fitting much better on this chart. The way it is now is really like testing every Northern European country and Portugal, then saying "Portugal does not fit in Europe!"
    There are a lot of Prussians (50,000) who moved to Milwaukee, WI around 1860. I am not sure how mixed they are these days, but I think their Y chromosomes could still be tested. I am also not sure if they are original Prussians, or Germanics from other areas who happened to be living in Prussia.

    The great share of the Germans (52,983) came from Prussia.
    http://www.scils.rutgers.edu/~dalbel...ographics.html

    This is not surprising because the relatively small Finnish population for generations lived nomadic lives almost isolated from the rest of Europe.
    Baltics range well into Russia. I think if they tested some Baltic Russians as well, they would find that these genes are not isolated at all.
    Last edited by Leonhardt; Tuesday, November 18th, 2008 at 06:17 AM. Reason: added last sentence.

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    I thought I'd have a play... If you're not in the Red Zone, you will be banned...

    Minus the distortion caused by nonGermanic Brits, it's interesting that we do form a pretty rounded blob, without the odd tentacles and extremities that some other ethnic groups show here. We show the beginnings of stretching out to the northwest, northeast and south, but nothing major...

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    What the DW-World.de article doesn't mention is the sample size of the study.

    This NYT article however does:

    Dr. Kayser's team tested almost 2,500 people and analyzed the data by correlating the genetic variations in all the subjects. The genetic map is based on the two strongest of these sets of correlations.
    In my view it is a relatively small sample size. 2500 means an average of not a lot more of a hundred individuals sampled for each country.

    In addition, as you can see in the right map below, the sampled populations are concentrated in one, at most two, locations for each country. What makes the selected locations for population samples a good choice? We are not told.

    The map shows, at right, the location in Europe where each of the sampled populations live[....]


    All in all it is an interesting study, which should be repeated in order to overcome its limitations .

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    Senior Member Jute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    There are a lot of Prussians (50,000) who moved to Milwaukee, WI around 1860. I am not sure how mixed they are these days, but I think their Y chromosomes could still be tested. I am also not sure if they are original Prussians, or Germanics from other areas who happened to be living in Prussia.
    I would be surprised if there is any American still alive who has 100% East-Prussian ancestry. Maybe someone very old. (If I understand this study, it tests many alleles and not the clumsy Y-chromosome test).

    There are still old people from 100%-Eastprussian stock within West Germany today (who were exiled as children in 1945). I hope that someone tests them before they all die, even if just for science, because after they die the Eastprussian stock is gone from the Earth (it exists but now scattered among West Germany mostly).


    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Baltics range well into Russia. I think if they tested some Baltic Russians as well, they would find that these genes are not isolated at all.
    I see what you mean, but you have used a wrong label, There are no "Baltic Russians". There are only Russians, who live near the Baltic; but no Baltic Russians. There are many Russian colonists in Latvia/Estonia (40% of their nations, thanks to Russian resettlements of their own people), but these are like Turks in Germany in terms of racial stock difference. When they created St.Petersburg on an empty swamp less than 300 years ago, it was right in the middle of Finnic territory they had recently conquered. Since then, they wiped out the Ingrians in that area, and tried to wipe out the Estonians 1940-1991.

    The entire eastern side of the Baltic Sea was the hearthland of Balts (Latvians, Lithuanians, Old Prussians, and other minor peoples) and Finnics (Estonians, Finns, Ingrians, and other minor peoples). The only Slavs around came as invaders/conquerors in the 1700s (Peter The "Great"), and then in 1940-1944.

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