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Thread: Are the Irish, the Welsh or the Scottish Germanic?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untersberger View Post
    The Vikings are not celts nor were the Normans or Anglo-Saxons so lines are obviously crossed here as to what I am actually wanting to discuss.
    That's why we have a nice little category entitled Germanic Enclaves & Influences, which is where such threads should go. This is a section for countries which are either predominantly not Germanic but have visible Germanic influences, or indeed self-contained Germanic enclaves.

    It is undeniable that several Germanic groups had a profound influence upon the Hibernian island. It may even well be that there is one or the other isolated village which descends directly from Germanic settlers, and of course it would be a folly if the descendants those settlers called themselves anything but Germanic.

    However since it is by and at large not a Germanic country, we cannot make a dedicated section. This doesn't mean that we wouldn't welcome topics about Germanic heritage (or whatever is left) in Ireland. Quite to the contrary, we quite encourage it. But that should go into abovementioned section.

    As you will have noticed, we don't have a dedicated section for Normandy, even though we consider it largely Germanic. Any topics of pertinence to Normans should go into "Germanic Enclaves & Influences" likewise. And that's with Normandy arguably having a greater claim upon being an "exclusively" Germanic region than Ireland.

    And so on and so forth. If we made a sub-section for each enclave or influenced region, then the index would about three miles long, with about a handful of threads in each. That's why it is collectivised at current, the index is already large enough I should think.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
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    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  2. #182
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    Thank you for your words of wisdom. I do feel personally that Ireland should be put together *with Scotland* as one subsection so that it doesn't take up further space down the list. Easily done with the flags of Scotland and Ireland flashing in sequence as same on sub section Die Deutschen Länder. When compared to New Zealand the island of Ireland more than qualifies and I had not even mentioned the Ulster plantations which adds extra weight to its Germanic status and further justification. The flag of Northern Ireland is mostly Germanic in symbology.

    I do of course understand everyones point of view whom has contributed and will accept of course recommendations made and I thank the moderators also for your input even if I feel it is unfair.

    I just can't get around the justification given to New Zealand's status as Germanic. I think your experts may need to take another look at this as this country certainly is not a Germanic nation and I am interested to know what percentage of the country is actually of English descent. The Maori/Islanders, Celt's, Others, etc etc NZ population far outnumbers them but hey!!! I stand to be corrected if you feel I have gotten that wrong. Please do enlighten !!!..

    But for me the case for Germanic Ireland to share sub section Scotland is now closed!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Untersberger View Post
    I just can't get around the justification given to New Zealand's status as Germanic. I think your experts may need to take another look at this as this country certainly is not a Germanic nation and I am interested to know what percentage of the country is actually of English descent. The Maori/Islanders, Celt's, Others, etc etc NZ population far outnumbers them but hey!!! I stand to be corrected if you feel I have gotten that wrong. Please do enlighten !!!..
    New Zealand has a population of about 4.3 million, of which approximately 78% identify with European ethnic groups. Most European New Zealanders are of British and Irish ancestry, although there has been significant Dutch, Dalmatian, Italian, and German immigration together with indirect European immigration through Australia, North America, South America and South Africa.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Demography

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    Percentage of Irish speakers by county of the Republic; the six counties of Northern Ireland are not portrayed distinctly here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Holle View Post
    I'm afraid this chart is ridiculously optimistic. 99% of all the so called "Irish speakers" in Ireland only have what is referred to as "a cupla focail" (a couple of words) of Irish. The vast majority can speak Irish about as well as the average Englishman a few years out of school can speak French or German. It is a bit of a disgrace to say that 93 years after independence most of us can't speak our own language, but that is the current situation.
    Close observation may result in feelings of horror, wonder and awe at world you find yourself inhabiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untersberger
    So that means in full effect of the Vikings and the Normans and the Anglo-Saxons and the Irish Palatinates whom are all Germanic peoples and all settlers to Ireland are to be completely ignored by Skadi as being non-Germanic because they have 'Assimilated'.
    The difference here though is that a significant proportion of Australians and New Zealanders are descended exclusively from ethnic groups considered by Skadi to be Germanic, and so they are seen as ethnically germanic. In the case of Ireland, there is no longer an "Irish Viking" group ethnically distinct from the rest of the country; the Irish are basically an ethnic group of their own (and not a truly Germanic one in my view), even though they are composed of what were once a number of separate groups. It's extremely unlikely that any born and bred Irishman would be say, more than 50% Viking in ancestry.

    But for example Afrikaners are ethnically/culturally distinct from the native South Africans, even though the latter vastly outnumber them. However, if the Afrikaners and natives had merged to become one people the story would be different, even though the resulting ethnic group would be partially Germanic.

    In this case South Africa would (presumably) not have a Germanic section of its own.

  7. #187
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    There are some Irish names believed to be of Viking origin;

    Viking surnames:

    * Doyle, MacDougall, McDowell (Dubh Gall)
    * Harald (Haraldsson)
    * Higgins (h-Uiginn, i.e., a Viking)
    * MacAuliffe/Auley/Cauley (Olsson)
    * MacCottor (Ottarsson)
    * MacKitterick (Strigsson)
    * MacManus (Magnusson)
    * Wood (Wode, meaning mad; described Beserkers)
    Source.
    Of these, Doyle is the most common and the 12th most common surname in Ireland with about 19,000 households and around 50,000 people or about 1% of the population of the Island.

    http://www.doyle.com.au/today.htm
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  8. #188
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    How does having a Viking surname prove predominant Germanic ancestry? There are surnames of Germanic origin in Spain too, but Spain isn't Germanic either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bärin View Post
    How does having a Viking surname prove predominant Germanic ancestry?
    I'm not suggesting that Ireland is "predominantly Germanic". However if a significant percentage of a countries population bare names of a given ethnic origin whether it is Viking, Huguenot, Germanic or whatever else, then clearly it indicates that there is also a percentage of genetic heritage in the country originating from that source.

    There are about 50,000 Doyles in Ireland and there are a number of other surnames believed to be Viking as well.

    The number of names of Viking origin in Ireland though, is completely dwarfed by the number of Norman names. In certain places on the east coast there would be nearly as many people with a Norman name as with a Gaelic one.However as the Normans in Ireland didn't actually come direct from Normandy but through Britain, just how "Germanic-Norman" they were by the time they got here, is debatable.
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    The issue here, of being Germanic or not, is first of all a cultural one. The Irish are culturally Celtic, so even if the Irish have a considerable amount of biological influence from Germanic people, that doesn't make them Germanic.

    In terms of biological "Germanicness", there are a few things one has to realize first. By the time the Germanic peoples began to distinguish themselves as a distinct people, during the Nordic Bronze Age, people from haplogroups I, R1a, and R1b had already intermixed with each other to form this distinct group. Also, the notion that R1b denotes Basque ancestry from the Paleolithic is no longer the current view. See dna-forums.com for more info.

    It's my opinion that Ireland has a significant amount of Germanic ancestry, beginning with the possibly Germanic Belgae aka Fir Bolg around 500 BC, and certainly continuing with the Vikings, English, and Normans. I think this is especially so in Munster and Leinster, where most of these peoples were arriving and conducting their business.

    By the way, I think that if Scotland has its own section of the forum, that Ireland should as well, as it also has a rich history of Germanic influence.

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