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Thread: Are the Irish, the Welsh or the Scottish Germanic?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God View Post
    ^ I'd never even heard of Ivernian!
    A very well kept secret. O'Rahilly went into it in depth in the 1940s. He was at Trinity and very well thought of a scholar, apparently.

    I suppose it's just not politically popular an idea, the fact that you (and my Irish half of ancestors) all spoke Welsh before you learnt Gaelic!

    The Wiki article should really have gone into the Ptolemy description of Ierne - the river names are solidly P-Celtic, apparently, with such obviously P-Celtic tribal names as Brigantes and Menapii in uncontested dominion.

    Later Irish tradition has the P-Celtic Fir Domnainn (Dumnonii), Fir Bolg (Belgae), and various remnants of Belgic Ui Bairche in southern Leinster. The very Ulaid and Erainn were originally Brythonic speakers according to O'Rahilly.

    I've never seen a decent refutation of the man's work either. It's just been deliberately ignored. Of course, none of it goes against the clear fact that the Irish stand apart as the least diluted UP group here in the West, but it does 'make you think' as they say!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    As far as I remember, Gaulish is believed to have been P-Celtic. In fact the same is true of all the Continental Celtic languages of Roman times, with the probable exception of a language then spoken in North-Western Spain.
    By the way, I've never seen any decent 'proof' of this Galician thing. Just conjecture and supposition - if rather solid in its good sense. Do you know of anything concrete to back it up? Placename and onomastic evidence in Hispania? :

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    Senior Member Ægir's Avatar
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    It is also important to understand that many of the Gaelic speakers in the western highlands and islands of Scotland are genetically Germanic. Professor Bryan Sykes has looked for example at the various chiefs of clan Donald (the great preserver of Gaelic culture) and has proven that they descended not form the Irish Kinks as their clan history states but from Norse Vikings. As well if you look at some of the most “Celtic” surnames in Scotland like MacLeod, MacLauchlan, MacSorley, MacRanald ect. ect. You will see that the base of the names if you remove the Mac prefix are in fact Norse and not Celtic. The area of the Celtic fringe in Scotland is Germanic. Now as for the lowlands and southern uplands in Scotland you find a genetic mix of British, Anglo-Saxon, Norman, and Danish ancestry . The language and culture in the in this area is clearly Germanic. So I would argue that Scotland is very Germanic and if it were not for disputes with England they would most of the population would probably agree.

    As for Ireland and Wales, well they are clearly culturally Celtic, however there has been a great amount of genetic and cultural influence which has come from Germanic peoples: Vikings, Normans or English. In Wales you can find the strongest Celtic culture as their language is strong, in Ireland they talk a good game about being Celtic but I have found very few who know much of their Gaelic language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    It is also important to understand that many of the Gaelic speakers in the western highlands and islands of Scotland are genetically Germanic.
    Sure, but don't overdo it! They did after all end up adopting the local language - which you don't do from corpses! Who did the new lords marry? Who were their peasants? Why is folk culture there more dominated by things with parallels in the rest of the Celtic world, or is that a false impression created by centuries of Celtomania?

    I would be the last to willfully diminish the impact of the Sons of Somerled, but these things have to be moderated.
    in Ireland they talk a good game about being Celtic but I have found very few who know much of their Gaelic language.
    Hehe, quite! None of my relatives over there know a damned thing of their history beyond some vaguely remembered stuff about Brian Boroimhe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    By the way, I've never seen any decent 'proof' of this Galician thing. Just conjecture and supposition - if rather solid in its good sense. Do you know of anything concrete to back it up? Placename and onomastic evidence in Hispania?
    It's been a while since I've read up on it, but yes I think the evidence was of that nature. I don't remember how conclusive it was though.

    On the question of Ivernian, perhaps Gaelic was the earlier language in Ireland, but then P-Celtic speakers introduced iron from Britain (and maybe the Continent in some cases). This latter language might never have displaced Gaelic among the native population; perhaps it was spoken as an elite language for some centuries in the areas conquered by the P-Celtic invaders (as well as being a first language among the descendants of the invaders themselves); this would explain why it completely died out in favour of Gaelic.

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    Senior Member Huginnsanvil's Avatar
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    I think the differences between them are say less than between the Greeks and Germanics. They shared common continental borders, an Indo European root for the languages - daoine is folk/people which is related to diot/theodiscus, Tarann was the God of thunder and a great deal of other traits be they physical, sociological or otherwise. If anything the ancient Gauls whose animism was also prevalent amongst the Germanic tribes were far in advance of the Germanic tribesmen of the 1st century BC. The Gauls worshipped a panoply of deities most of whom are forgotten but Belenos in Gaul became Beli in Ancient Britain. Maponos became Mabon and so on. Interestingly there is a theory that one of Heimdall's names Rig might have been borrowed from the Irish or some Celtic source as that is a Celtic word for king and many of the tales mirror each other in their underlying meanings and content. In the mythopoetic night all cats are grey and all that. they have even found plaid patterns in Jutland before the time of the Romans.

    Are they Germanic though - the answer must be no but it would be impossible to untangle these two cultures which are inextricably bound by blood and history. Modern Icelanders can testify to that. Good old Kjartan.

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    Senior Member NatRev's Avatar
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    I'd say it's hard to say, I've met Welsh, Irish and Scottish that look 'Germanic' and basically 'English looking'. Yet I've also met Irish and Welsh that are darker in eyes and hair.

    Rachel Allen, an Irish TV chef, is in my opinion, one of the most beautiful women alive today. She seems to me very Germanic and I think if one could trace her ancestry far back, it may even be Viking in origin:



    James Martin, an English TV chef, again in my opinion, seems to have a very 'English' look about him. He's from the north of England so again his ancestry could be Viking too:



    60's Scottish pop star Lulu to me looks typically Norse. Would she look 'out of place' in Stockholm or Oslo perhaps?




    Catherin Zeta Jones has a distinctive Welsh look about her, maybe even pre-Celtic Mediterranean types:




    Linguistically, I think Scottish and Irish people 'sound' Germanic or partially Norse.

    I have a German friend who has lived in England for over 25 years yet I first thought he was Scottish!
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    I consider myself Nordic/Celtic, I think there is a grand distinction.

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Why not the Cornish?

    On this subject, of how Germanic one might consider various Celtic populations:

    If one goes back with our magic time window further to the bronze & iron age, there is substantial evidence this flow has at times gone the other direction, or been harder to describe simply as nominally Celtic folk being nearly wholly traceable to some mid-range point of Germanic/Norse genetic influx, as the Germanic gene pool itself has often been a stabilized mix with original Germanic flowing from the heartland and fusing with the older Celtic stock to the West, and South (and possibly the East as well, with East Germanics from the north & later West Slavs from the east pushing over but not eliminating original Celtic stock - there seems evidence that some of the best looking of the rural Slovaks for instance may be genetically almost wholly unaltered bronze age eastern Celtic or East Germanic, though now culturally/linguistically West Slavic); e.g. the charming Allemanic folk on either side of the Swiss border I don't think any modern German who is not some sort of weird eugenic fetishist would label 'less German' seem to be able to trace their predominant characteristically unique <within the Deutschsprachgebiet> skull shape a hallmark to being predominantly descended from the original pre-Roman, pre-Germanic Celtic people, though with substantial ancient Germanic admixture and thoroughly Germanized culturally and linguistically long before the Roman Empire was done.


    Not that I disagree with your statements on the basis of what I've read on this period, but rather, just wanting to add my two cents to parsing the complexity of the interrelationship over time between various Celtic & Germanic peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NatRev View Post
    Catherin Zeta Jones has a distinctive Welsh look about her, maybe even pre-Celtic Mediterranean types:

    There is nothing distinctively Welsh about her. Her type is found nearly all over Britain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I want to know if the Irish, Walesh or the Scottish are germanic? I don't think so.But of cos they're using a lingual term which is not racially significant. Well just a thought I hope no one pissed of with me.
    You are right, in this sense that the Irish, Welsh and Highland Scottish are predominantly Celtic (Atlantic branch). The most common Y-DNA haplogroup amongst them is R1b-L21 which was brought there by Indo-European Celtic speakers in the Bronze Age via Central Europe. By the end of the Bronze Age, over 90% of British and Irish males belonged to the R1b-L21/S145. However they do have a Germanic admixture due to a long time co-mingling with their Germanic conquerors (Sassenach/Anglo-Saxons) who are from England and Lowland Scotland where the most common Y-DNA haplogroup is the R1b-S21/U106 as it is in the Netherlands, Northwest Germany and parts of Denmark.

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