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Runes & Sinnbildkunde Discussion of the runes, alphabets & symbols and their meanings, as well as rune magic and casting. This is a general forum for all systems of runes: the Elder and Younger Futharks, the Armanen rune system, and the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc.

Kenaz

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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #11
Gugnir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersir View Post
Sorry, but archaeology tells you wrong. There are a few magical runic inscriptions, and I mean really a few. Many insist on the magic esoteric theories about runes.
Archaeology is a constantly evolving science. If there were ANY magical uses of Rune, that means they were used for magic. Simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersir
Simply post a magic runic inscription here and proof your point. If you can find one, it better be very old and not just religious texts written in runes. There is a difference...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia article "Runic magic"
The Ansuz and Tiwaz runes in particular seem to have had magical significance in the early (Elder Futhark) period.[citation needed] The Sigrdrífumál instruction of "name Tyr twice" is reminiscent of the double or triple "stacked Tyr" bindrunes found e.g. on Seeland-II-C or the Lindholm amulet in the aaaaaaaazzznnn-b- muttt, sequence, which besides stacked Tyr involves multiple repetition of Ansuz, but also triple occurrence of Algiz and Naudiz.
Also see: http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heath...m.html#whatuse

Of course you can throw pretty much any inscription out and say it's about the words and not the Runic symbols, which is possible, but it still means the sounds - which the Runes represent - were important.

So you are throwing out the Sagas and the Eddas as legitimate sources. Okay, well then the show's over.

-Gugnir
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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugnir View Post
So you are throwing out the Sagas and the Eddas as legitimate sources. Okay, well then the show's over.

-Gugnir
Well, they are Scandinavian, not German. I guess that is what he meant.
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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #13
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Originally Posted by Granraude View Post
Well, they are Scandinavian, not German. I guess that is what he meant.
I had no idea we were talking about Germans at all. I was talking about the Runes, I don't know where anyone got Germans from my posts.

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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugnir
Archaeology is a constantly evolving science. If there were ANY magical uses of Rune, that means they were used for magic. Simple.
Science is based on observation, we can't base knowledge on "what could have been". If magical use of the runes were common, why don't we have evidence that supports it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugnir
Of course you can throw pretty much any inscription out and say it's about the words and not the Runic symbols, which is possible, but it still means the sounds - which the Runes represent - were important.
Like I said, 99,9% of rune inscriptions are not about magic, which the wikipedia article you quoted supports.

It also says:

Quote:
In the 17th Century, Hermeticist and Rosicrucian Johannes Bureus, having been inspired by visions, developed a Runic system based on the Kaballah and the Futhark which he called the Adulruna.[12]

The Armanen runes "revealed" to Guido von List in 1902 were employed for magical purposes in Germanic mysticism by authors such as Friedrich Bernhard Marby and Siegfried Adolf Kummer, and after World War II in a reformed "pansophical" system by Karl Spiesberger. More recently, Stephen Flowers, Adolf Schleipfer, Larry E. Camp and others also build on List's system.[citation needed]

Several modern systems of runic magic and runic divination were published from the 1980s onward. The first book on runic divination, written by Ralph Blum in 1982, led to the development of sets of runes designed for use in several such systems of fortune telling, in which the runes are typically incised in clay, stone tiles, crystals, resin, glass, or polished stones, then either selected one-by-one from a closed bag or thrown down at random for reading.

Later authors such as Diana L. Paxson and Freya Aswynn follow Blum (1989) in drawing a direct correlation between runic divination and tarot divination. They may discuss runes in the context of "spreads" and advocate the usage of "rune cards".

Modern authors like Ralph Blum sometimes include a historical "blank rune" in their sets. Some were to replace a lost rune but according to Ralph Blum this was the God Odin's Rune. The rune of the end and the beginning.
This is where the modern view of the runes comes from.

Eldred Thorsson's Runelore is another popular book, the writer is another crazy esoteric. And because he publishes these things under a pseudonym, even his other "normal" books are, rightfully so, under scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugnir
So you are throwing out the Sagas and the Eddas as legitimate sources. Okay, well then the show's over.

-Gugnir
That's not what I wrote. My point is why should our Nordic culture and history be public domain. A German should have a German identity, not a Norse one. A large problem today is that we become strangers onto to ourselves. In earlier times we inherited our identity, now we make our own.

Good books on runes are the German Klaus Düwel - Runenkunde and Elmer H. Antonsen - Runes and Germanic Linguistics.
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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #15
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You know, really, I just don't care enough about this argument to carry it on. You feel the Runes weren't used for magic, I think there is evidence they were. What's the problem with that? And just to answer your first point: I'm not basing it on "What might have been." I showed you an example, and you yourself have said there were magical uses in some cases. It is not "common" because the magical arts were practiced by the few who sought such knowledge, not the masses. There is evidence also, again, of Skallagrimsson twice using Rune magic - once for healing, once to shatter the drinking horn.

Moreover, why would you derail my thread about a completely different topic and go off on this "Runes weren't used for magic" thing? Why don't you start a new thread if that's what you want to discuss?

As for Germans having German identity - I'd love to, if there were preserved sources from German Heathenry. Besides that, we know that the Anglo-Saxons, Norse, and Germans honored the same gods anyway, so probably the myths are pretty much the same except for names and details, so who cares?

-Gugnir
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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #16
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Well, you asked what Kenaz symbolized, and he replied that it does not necessarily symbolize anything in the way modern "pagans" believe.
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Old Sunday, April 29th, 2012   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granraude View Post
Well, you asked what Kenaz symbolized, and he replied that it does not necessarily symbolize anything in the way modern "pagans" believe.
That's a very borderline argument (no offense; I'm not directing any ill will at you here). Yes, I suppose you could make that argument, but then again, it was pretty clear that I was asking why Kenaz is interpreted as a creativity Rune when the poems say it's a death-Rune, so technically maybe you're right, but I really think it's a case of splitting hairs to come in and start saying that it's all completely false.

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Old Monday, April 30th, 2012   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gugnir View Post
Is it just more, or do 99% of Heathens have Kenaz totally wrong? I keep hearing about how it's a Rune of "creativity" and "directed fire" -
They probably have. Even more so those who state it was only used for magic and divination. There might be some evidence for some use in a magical or religious context, but the bast majority of the surviving, found and published inscriptions where a bit more mundane. Not every time one carves or writes a < does one preform magic. In most cases it is just a K .

But one could argue an etymological link between knowing and the rune name kenaz. And the anglo saxon rune poem talks about fire, which is primairly linked with the anglo-saxon futhark.

Quote:
yet the poems make it pretty clear that it causes sickness and death. The Havamal says it can be used to kill a person in vengeance.
And Jan de Vries links that specific verse with a certain part of the saga of Grettir, but as far as I know only von Linst as his followers has made links with those verses and specific runes. But if one takes the verses that allegedly talks about different runes and their magical-religious meaning one has 18 verses. So one has to puzzle about which runes has been left out, or added on depending which futhark the composer had in mind. Or if verses where lost. Assuming that those verses are about certain runes in the first place.
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Old Wednesday, June 13th, 2012   #19
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arvak shows some promise.

The rune kenaz is represented as a torch a hand held fire this makes it the fire man holds which is the fire of the sun linked to the solar sun. When man holds fire he holds the power of the goddess in his hands.

Sjyofna is the goddess of love and when you work with her power, the first thing that is taken is blood, your blood and the blood of animals.

When it comes to karma she returns like for like and is the goddess of vengence, I know as I have used this energy as such.
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Old Saturday, June 16th, 2012   #20
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I think Gungnir is on to something here.
It has been suggested that the kennaz meaning attested in the poems as 'boil', 'sore', was treated metaphorically as a sore being like a fire or a burning torch thrust inside - a burning pain.

A trend to abstraction (and later New Ageism) has the rune become a 'torch', then 'fire', then even more distantly, 'creativity'.

I tend to go to the dark side of the runes, which can be glimpsed in the poems, Eddas and Sagas.
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