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Germanic Lands: Around the World Dedicated to general historical, social, linguistic, political and cultural topics pertinent to the Germanic New World/Colonies.

Colonials as Europeans

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Old Saturday, December 17th, 2011   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
I posted the following in an earlier thread but thought it could work here as well:

Immigration from Germany to America was intended to spread German culture, a way to bring Germany to the world. The first wave that immigrated to Texas considered themselves to be Germans. Just because they set foot on American soil does that mean they automatically stopped being so. I have no doubt that they were still considered to be fellow Germans by the friends and relatives they left behind. The first group of children born of these immigrants were just as German as their parents and also considered Germans by friends and family back in the Fatherland. In fact Texas Germans married only other Texas Germans well into the twentieth century. They spoke the German language, ate traditional German food, and proudly celebrated their German heritage.
At what point do you suppose Texas-Germans stopped being actual Germans and irreversibly became Americans?

I feel that a German-American has every right to call themselves German if:

1. They’re blood is mostly German with no exotic admixture.
2. They learn to speak German fluently.
3. They celebrate their German heritage, and not just on specific dates, but every day.
4. They proudly proclaim their ancestry from Germany without a hint of shame.

If a German-American meets these requirements then they don’t have to be born, raised, or even live in Germany to qualify.
That is the exact description of my father's side of the family. Texas land-grant and all. I would be the first one that would be sort of a half German. Speak some of the LAnguage. Eat the food, proud of the heritage, still have the farm. Grandpa is 1st Gen. GRandma 2nd.
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Old Monday, December 26th, 2011   #232
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I've a few questioning marks about the Transylvanian Saxons in the US or Canada. They are no doubt proud of their ancestry and heritage, they've cultural events and festivals. I was surprised very pleasantly to see they take regular trips to see how their homeland looks like and immerse in the communities here.

But my doubts are especially about some of the youth who take part in such groups. I've the feeling maybe they have a little bit Saxon ancestry but they're mixed, some even racially.

Here for example a group photo which enforces it:



These peoples aren't European, mixed or not. They've grown up and had their mentalities formed in a new country. I view them as maybe our cousins. They're still Transylvanian Saxon by ancestry and heritage, but they've something different from us. A big difference I've noticed is the modernity. The modernity came to Romania slower than in their lands and that affected the perception and mentalities a little bit. Maybe some North American Saxons would feel strange in the small rural Saxon communities here.
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Old Saturday, January 14th, 2012   #233
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Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
Immigration from Germany to America was intended to spread German culture, a way to bring Germany to the world.
Well it obviously didn't result too well now. In fact it's going viceversa, Americanism is being spread to Germany.

Quote:
I feel that a German-American has every right to call themselves German if:

1. They’re blood is mostly German with no exotic admixture.
2. They learn to speak German fluently.
3. They celebrate their German heritage, and not just on specific dates, but every day.
4. They proudly proclaim their ancestry from Germany without a hint of shame.

If a German-American meets these requirements then they don’t have to be born, raised, or even live in Germany to qualify.
Good conditions but which are not met by most so-called German-Americans. Once more, there is no both German and American. You are either, or. You have to choose your loyalty, you can only be part of a nation but not two.
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Old Wednesday, April 18th, 2012   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schnadelbach View Post
Our only quarrel with them is over south Tyrol, and that is only important to the (pan)german or austrian nationalists among us. Ahem. No one thinks it is worth fighting and dying over. Otherwise, our opinion of the italians is directly dependent on how far down the peninsula they live. We have no problem with Venetians or Milanese. We don't think as much of neapolitans or sicilians. We don't think that they are subhumans or anything, we think that they are quite hospitable and friendly, we just think that latins in general are rather too ...easy going... for our taste. But northern italians are not your typical latins. That is why northern Italy is comparable in living standards to northern europe, and southern Italy is relatively speaking poor and lives off subsidies from the northern provinces. And from the European Abomination, excuse me, Union.

We don't have much good to say about italian soldiery. Neither does anybody else.
Why would South Tyrol, which has been ethnically Germanic since the Migration Period and afterwards German, be less important than, say, Alsace or Eastern Prussia?
You don’t strike me as someone who would be against the return of these, and especially the latter, to Germany.

Excuse me but why do you think you could speak for actual Germans anyway?
From all your posts it’s evident that you’re someone who wasn’t raised in German culture, who wasn’t born to German parents on German soil, who knows nothing about the situation in Europe or how Germans feel.
Please leave it to Germans to speak for themselves.
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Das halte fest mit deinem ganzen Herzen.
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Ein schwankes Rohr, das jeder Sturm zerknickt
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Old Thursday, April 19th, 2012   #235
Tom Schnadelbach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
Why would South Tyrol, which has been ethnically Germanic since the Migration Period and afterwards German, be less important than, say, Alsace or Eastern Prussia?
You don’t strike me as someone who would be against the return of these, and especially the latter, to Germany.
Juthunge, I wrote"Our only quarrel with them is over south Tyrol, and that is only important to the (pan)german or austrian nationalists among us. Ahem. "

The "ahem" is put in to include me in the group of (pan)german nationalists of which I spoke. I would be very satisfied if Südtirol were to return to a unified "Gesamtdeutschland"/complete Germany. I consider that to be part of the natural order. But most german germans of my acquaintance are not upset that it is under the control of the italians. If the italians were to behave now as they did during the fascist period, and even later, it would be different, but most people do not see the Südtiroler as being particularly oppressed. They certainly would not think that bringing Südtirol "Heim ins Reich" under the present circumstances is worth dying for.
Emphasis following added by me
Quote:
Excuse me but why do you think you could speak for actual Germans anyway?
From all your posts it’s evident that you’re someone who wasn’t raised in German culture, who wasn’t born to German parents on German soil, who knows nothing about the situation in Europe or how Germans feel.
Please leave it to Germans to speak for themselves.

In what way have I angered you?
I was born in the US. At the time of my birth, my father held the german citizenship. Jus soli has no place at all in the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetzes (RuStAG), of 1913.
Jus sanguinis alone, and that through the father. Therefore, I was born a german citizen.

As far as knowing nothing of the situation in europe, I lived most of my adult life in Germany, Munich, and know quite a bit about it, thank you
I know about the Heinselmaenchen and the Mainzelmaenchen, about the Herr Karl and about Rudi Dutschke, about the Waehrungsreform/currency reform and how the shops had nothing in them on Friday when everybody had lots of money and how on Monday when they opened the shops there was everything to buy, without ration points, and nobody had more than 40 marks. I learned the german "Komm Herr Jesu und sei unser Gast".. meal blessing as a child and about the "Lieber Jesus, mach mich fromm, das ich in dein Himmel komm", night prayer. I learned german from my grandparents and the reason that I make many grammatical errors is because I did not have the "blessing" of a german education. Of course that means also that I did not have the germanness educated out of me in favor of paneuropeanism.
I worked in a german Intercontinental hotel as a concierge for years and dealt with people from all over europe and the world.

I do indeed know something of which I speak.
Mit freundlichem DEUTSCHEM Gruss/With Friendly GERMAN greeting,
Thomas
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Old Thursday, April 19th, 2012   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Schnadelbach View Post
Juthunge, I wrote"Our only quarrel with them is over south Tyrol, and that is only important to the (pan)german or austrian nationalists among us. Ahem. "

The "ahem" is put in to include me in the group of (pan)german nationalists of which I spoke. I would be very satisfied if Südtirol were to return to a unified "Gesamtdeutschland"/complete Germany. I consider that to be part of the natural order. But most german germans of my acquaintance are not upset that it is under the control of the italians. If the italians were to behave now as they did during the fascist period, and even later, it would be different, but most people do not see the Südtiroler as being particularly oppressed. They certainly would not think that bringing Südtirol "Heim ins Reich" under the present circumstances is worth dying for.
Sorry but “ahem” usually indicates derision, at least around here.
Most Germans nowadays are upset by few things concerning their people or country, at least on the outside, as long as they can quietly go on with their usual lives.
That doesn’t make it right though.

Quote:
In what way have I angered you?
I was born in the US. At the time of my birth, my father held the german citizenship. Jus soli has no place at all in the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetzes (RuStAG), of 1913.
Jus sanguinis alone, and that through the father. Therefore, I was born a german citizen.

As far as knowing nothing of the situation in europe, I lived most of my adult life in Germany, Munich, and know quite a bit about it, thank you
I know about the Heinselmaenchen and the Mainzelmaenchen, about the Herr Karl and about Rudi Dutschke, about the Waehrungsreform/currency reform and how the shops had nothing in them on Friday when everybody had lots of money and how on Monday when they opened the shops there was everything to buy, without ration points, and nobody had more than 40 marks. I learned the german "Komm Herr Jesu und sei unser Gast".. meal blessing as a child and about the "Lieber Jesus, mach mich fromm, das ich in dein Himmel komm", night prayer. I learned german from my grandparents and the reason that I make many grammatical errors is because I did not have the "blessing" of a german education. Of course that means also that I did not have the germanness educated out of me in favor of paneuropeanism.
I worked in a german Intercontinental hotel as a concierge for years and dealt with people from all over europe and the world.

I do indeed know something of which I speak.
Mit freundlichem DEUTSCHEM Gruss/With Friendly GERMAN greeting,
Thomas
You didn’t “anger” me as such but I believe this is long overdue.
The soil part wasn’t the most important part of my enumeration and this is not about citizenship at all, by the way.
It’s indeed about descent and culture. But judging from your own statement you’re only half-German by ancestry and grew up in the USA. That's not sufficient to call you a German in my eyes.

To be honest with you, I believe you’re overidentifying with Germany or “being German” and it’s getting a bit tiresome.
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„Ans Vaterland, ans teure, schließ dich an,
Das halte fest mit deinem ganzen Herzen.
Hier sind die starken Wurzeln deiner Kraft,
Dort in der fremden Welt stehst du allein,
Ein schwankes Rohr, das jeder Sturm zerknickt
.“
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Old Saturday, April 21st, 2012   #237
Tom Schnadelbach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
To be honest with you, I believe you’re overidentifying with Germany or “being German” and it’s getting a bit tiresome.
Emphasis added by me.
As opposed to so many "Bundesburger" who identify with the congolese and sinti and roma and somalis and everybody else EXCEPT the germans? I suppose that is something unusual to you. God knows that I wish that that were otherwise. Perhaps I do lay on the Deutschtumelei a bit too much. That is how I am. For me, Germany is everything.
Tom
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Old Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012   #238
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I think this is a bit unfair.

Especially considering the leader of Blood and Soil during the Third Reich, Richard Darré, was born in Argentina, and only about half-German himself. He moved to Germany when he was 9. His last name was not even German.

Rudolf Heß was born in Egypt, and he did not move to Germany until he was 14.

Think of all the national heroes of certain nations who were not even 'full-blooded'. Napoleon is adored by every Frenchman and is the national hero even though he was Corsican, and never even identified as French.

Knut the Great of Denmark was half Polish. Queen Victoria of the British Empire was German. Alexander the Great was only half Makedon.

So if all of these great people have been accepted by their nations as leaders, why is Mr. Schadelbach being rejected as a layman?

I've made some observations about this. A half-Hungarian/Ukrainian I know who does not speak Hungarian (grew up in 'Slovakia'), has been completely accepted by Hungarian nationalists and ultra-nationalists. A half-Russian who did not grow up in Russia I know has been accepted by Russian nationalists. A half Serb has been accepted by Swedish nationalists. I, myself, have never been told by Swiss nationalists that I 'overidentify' with my Swiss heritage (even though I am 1/4 German ).

Is this all because people get sick of Americans, who have a great great grandmother who was German so they call themselves Germans yet have no family in the country at all? Because I understand that. But if someone is half, or a quarter of a certain nationality, say German, and has strong frequent contact with his/her family there, why should he be told he can never belong there? At least if the person in question is Germanic on his non-German side, I don't see why they shouldn't be, if they are seriously committed to 100% embracing the culture, language and customs of said group.
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Old Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012   #239
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Originally Posted by Krähe View Post
Especially considering the leader of Blood and Soil during the Third Reich, Richard Darré, was born in Argentina, and only about half-German himself. He moved to Germany when he was 9. His last name was not even German.

Rudolf Heß was born in Egypt, and he did not move to Germany until he was 14.
Richard Darré was three quarters German and one quarter Swedish, grew up in a German expatriate community and was educated in the local German school. One of his ancestors in the 17th century was a Huguenot immigrant to Germany and that's were the French name comes from.
All of this hardly makes him non-German, especially since, as you said yourself, he came to Germany at the age of nine and was before that educated in a German manner by his parents.

Rudolf Heß was fully German on both sides and his "family lived in luxury on the Egyptian coast near Alexandria, and visited Germany often during the summers, allowing the Hess children to learn the German language and to absorb German culture."

Quote:
Think of all the national heroes of certain nations who were not even 'full-blooded'. Napoleon is adored by every Frenchman and is the national hero even though he was Corsican, and never even identified as French.

Knut the Great of Denmark was half Polish. Queen Victoria of the British Empire was German. Alexander the Great was only half Makedon.

So if all of these great people have been accepted by their nations as leaders, why is Mr. Schadelbach being rejected as a layman?
The French understanding of ethnicity(will to live together, regardless of ancestry) is vastly different from the German(descent and culture) understanding and I have no reason to doubt that Napoleon considered himself French.
But that just as a side note, as the example is irrelevant to me. Which is also true for your examples of nobility, which are obviously special cases since they were a special social group.
For the vast majority of the population the circumstances were entirely different than for the nobility, nor did they have the choice to choose them as leaders.

Quote:
I've made some observations about this. A half-Hungarian/Ukrainian I know who does not speak Hungarian (grew up in 'Slovakia'), has been completely accepted by Hungarian nationalists and ultra-nationalists. A half-Russian who did not grow up in Russia I know has been accepted by Russian nationalists. A half Serb has been accepted by Swedish nationalists.
This only tells me that their definition of nationality/ethnicity is flawed.

Quote:
Is this all because people get sick of Americans, who have a great great grandmother who was German so they call themselves Germans yet have no family in the country at all? Because I understand that. But if someone is half, or a quarter of a certain nationality, say German, and has strong frequent contact with his/her family there, why should he be told he can never belong there? At least if the person in question is Germanic on his non-German side, I don't see why they shouldn't be, if they are seriously committed to 100% embracing the culture, language and customs of said group.
Yes, it's mostly because of the situation outlined in your first sentence.
But I also disagree with what you said below it, as I have no reason to consider someone, who is only half or let alone only a quarter German, the same as myself or others of my kin who are fully German.

Mind you though, I never said that I wouldn't accept someone who is very predominantly of German descent, has no non-European ancestry, was educated in a German manner and speaks the language as well as a real German. Which was the case for both Darré and Heß by the way.
But that's certainly, at least nowadays, the exception rather than the rule and I don't see that being the case here.
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Das halte fest mit deinem ganzen Herzen.
Hier sind die starken Wurzeln deiner Kraft,
Dort in der fremden Welt stehst du allein,
Ein schwankes Rohr, das jeder Sturm zerknickt
.“
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Old Wednesday, May 2nd, 2012   #240
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Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
Yes, it's mostly because of the situation outlined in your first sentence.
But I also disagree with what you said below it, as I have no reason to consider someone, who is only half or let alone only a quarter German, the same as myself or others of my kin who are fully German.

Mind you though, I never said that I wouldn't accept someone who is very predominantly of German descent, has no non-European ancestry, was educated in a German manner and speaks the language as well as a real German. Which was the case for both Darré and Heß by the way.
But that's certainly, at least nowadays, the exception rather than the rule and I don't see that being the case here.
'educated in a German manner'
- Not sure what you mean. Thinks and acts like a German?

And, so they must be more than half to be German? Would you consider groups such as Flems, Dutch, Swiss, as racially part of the 'German' definition.
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