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Were We Stronger when We Were Pagan?

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Old Tuesday, April 17th, 2012   #41
Asgeir
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I think We were stronger because We were more Germans, more authentic, a nation is always more strong when It is more pure.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #42
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Originally Posted by Bearkinder View Post
Let's see, the holy days (holidays) keep their Germanic heathen names. They are (or at least were, I don't know what the church has changed in the last few decades) practiced in almost exactly the same way as the Germanic heathens did. The only thing that has changed is they say they do it for Christ now. I love to hear "Yuletide blessings" from Christians or having them invite me to their church's Halloween party (Winternights) or Easter egg hunt.

For that matter, they adopted Celtic paganism as well. There's the aforementioned Halloween (Samhain) parties -- dress-up and all, churches having St. Brigit's crosses hung on the doors in February (the goddess Brigidh -- her festival of Imbolc in February), and the good little Catholic girls running around in ribbons in their hand around a giant penis (maypole dancing). Nah, no mixture of paganism in Catholicism at all......

What protestants did was rush to return to Judaism, something Catholicism did with their priests and vestments long ago, but still persecuted jews. Nowadays the pope wants Catholics to embrace jews as brothers.
If your are going to Quote me try and Quote the entire quote.

here is what I said

Quote:
First of all NO the Catholics WERE NOT a mixture of Germanic Paganism and Christianity/Judaism, because most of the original Popes were in fact Jews.

They winked at Germanic Paganism, for converts and allowed some changes for that purpose, but they never really accepted the vast majority of Germanic Paganism and persecuted most of it.

So where does that get us, to Protestant, which IS a Mixture of Germanic Paganism and early Christian beliefs. Or more correctly it is Christianity that was bent to fit the early Germanic Tribes interpretation of "Christianity".

In any case BOTH are Germanic creations and distillations of earlier ideas and really have nothing to do with Historical Jesus apart for taking some of the ideologies.
Fact is the first 15 Popes of the Catholic Church were Jews, after that most of them were None Jews. Paganism in the Catholic Church come FROM NONE JEWS period. Early on the Catholic Church made concessions to appease the pagans/germanics which was later taken on as "Tradition".

Protestants was a type of reform movement, and was composed entirely of Germanic People and No Jews that I can see. Yes they routed out things they seen as "Pagan", but as a whole the things they instituted were mostly Germanic in origin.

Realistically the Catholic Church is more or less a Hodge poge of Roman Institution and Government that survived the collapse of the Empire, and incorporated Christianity as a whole.

Early Protestantism/Germanic Christianity is for the most part a legacy of early transmissions form the various streams of Christianity conveyed from christian groups that were part of the empire to Germanic populations via word of mouth trade and other such communications. So the official "Church" vs "Unofficial Church".

But back to the Topic at hand, that being the question of were the Pagan Barbarians stronger than Christianity. The answer to that should be pretty obvious, in the since that Christianity is the one that survived.

Therefor there it is though to claim the loser as "Strong" I would think.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #43
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Originally Posted by EQ Fighter
But back to the Topic at hand, that being the question of were the Pagan Barbarians stronger than Christianity. The answer to that should be pretty obvious, in the since that Christianity is the one that survived.
Christianity didnt survive because it was stronger, but because it made the strong weak. Riding on the sentiments of the poor, the sick, the forgotten, it gathered the masses behind it, infusing an instinct against the strong, proud and the self-confident.

Take for example the Vikings. They went out to conquer, and they did conquer a lot of European heartland, they even sailed to Paris, looted and took it... almost, because they got infected with christianity, were tamed, and shortly after ceased to exist. Look at Britain, the power structures between the regions (Essex, Wessex etc) was established by still Pagan Anglo-Saxons (more Saxon btw than Anglo, however), they imposed their culture and power structures onto whatever lived there. This exists still today, while christianity and the various schisms within christian power structure, Catholic or Anglican, did change naught on that, it only weakened the players on the power planes. When the Roman Empire fell apart, Pagan tribes re-conquered parts of the Roman empire in north Africa (via Spain), then they became christians and were re-absorbed into what was locally there. Etc etc etc.

Christianity is a force that levels everything down to the lowest common denominator. It isnt stronger, it just makes the strong weak and culls their ambitions.

Look at the crusades. Several onslaughts against the meanwhile Muslim Palestinians, but while wasting hundreds of thousands crusaders, Jerusalem is not conquered and not cleansed from Muslims, it does not become christian. It is diplomacy, not crusades, that establish access for christians to the sites. The crusaders rarely returned to Europe, many died, and those who survived stayed and were absorbed into the populations there.

The countries that were Catholic over centuries had an established Pagan Roman power structure, they already were part of the Roman empire. The reconquista of Moorish Spain, on the other hand, took christianity almost 500 years. This is not exactly a convincing proof of strength.

Same for Germania. While there were conquests and mass killings of "evil" Pagans all the time over centuries, Germania was not conquered, it was included into the power structures through conversion, so it fell from within, through traitors to their tribes.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #44
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Originally Posted by velvet View Post
Take for example the Vikings. They went out to conquer, and they did conquer a lot of European heartland, they even sailed to Paris, looted and took it... almost, because they got infected with christianity, were tamed, and shortly after ceased to exist. Look at Britain, the power structures between the regions (Essex, Wessex etc) was established by still Pagan Anglo-Saxons (more Saxon btw than Anglo, however), they imposed their culture and power structures onto whatever lived there. This exists still today, while christianity and the various schisms within christian power structure, Catholic or Anglican, did change naught on that, it only weakened the players on the power planes. When the Roman Empire fell apart, Pagan tribes re-conquered parts of the Roman empire in north Africa (via Spain), then they became christians and were re-absorbed into what was locally there. Etc etc etc.

The countries that were Catholic over centuries had an established Pagan Roman power structure, they already were part of the Roman empire. The reconquista of Moorish Spain, on the other hand, took christianity almost 500 years. This is not exactly a convincing proof of strength.

Same for Germania. While there were conquests and mass killings of "evil" Pagans all the time over centuries, Germania was not conquered, it was included into the power structures through conversion, so it fell from within, through traitors to their tribes.
Scandinavia was converted, and for quite a time only superficially, to Christianity only after the Viking period had already ended or at least was in decline for more than two centuries.
But even then Christian Normans conquered an equally Christian England in 1066, just like their Pagan cousins tried to, and for a time, did, conquer it.

The Vandals and their allies, the Alans, had already been Christian for a long time(since before they crossed the Rhine in 406, actually) when they invaded Roman Africa. As had been most Germanic tribes who invaded or migrated into the Roman Empire after 400 AD, by the way.
The Vandals even tried to convert(a relatively unique behaviour among the early Germanic tribes) their residing Trinitarian subjects to Arianism.
Their disappearance however has more to do with the fact that they were but a tribe of around 100.000 people among a subject population of several millions or that they were defeated in battle by the Eastern Roman general Belisarius, who correspondingly deported them to the mountains of Africa or the frontiers of the Eastern Empire.

What does all of this prove anyway?
I'm hardly a friend of Christianity from either a spiritual or political point of view but everything has to be seen in comparison, very few things are only black-and-white.

In my opinion both Christians and Pagans on this forum vastly overestimate the influence their respective faiths had on ancient/medieval politics.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #45
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Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
Scandinavia was converted, and for quite a time only superficially, to Christianity only after the Viking period had already ended or at least was in decline for more than two centuries.
But even then Christian Normans conquered an equally Christian England in 1066, just like their Pagan cousins tried to, and for a time, did, conquer it.

The Vandals and their allies, the Alans, had already been Christian for a long time(since before they crossed the Rhine in 406, actually) when they invaded Roman Africa. As had been most Germanic tribes who invaded or migrated into the Roman Empire after 400 AD, by the way.
The Vandals even tried to convert(a relatively unique behaviour among the early Germanic tribes) their residing Trinitarian subjects to Arianism.
Their disappearance however has more to do with the fact that they were but a tribe of around 100.000 people among a subject population of several millions or that they were defeated in battle by the Eastern Roman general Belisarius, who correspondingly deported them to the mountains of Africa or the frontiers of the Eastern Empire.

What does all of this prove anyway?
I'm hardly a friend of Christianity from either a spiritual or political point of view but everything has to be seen in comparison, very few things are only black-and-white.

In my opinion both Christians and Pagans on this forum vastly overestimate the influence their respective faiths had on ancient/medieval politics.
So where are they today?

Every Germanic tribe that failed to secure Germanic living space before they converted to christianity disappeared forever. All Germanic lands were founded by pagans. Does that tell you anything?

Germanic tribes invaded from southern Scandinavia and all of the other lands that are Germanic today were taken from Celts and Slavs. There is no reason why that could not have continued beyond the Rhine. What happened is that they converted to an alien and universalistic religion, lost the will to survive as a people and ultimately disappeared. As you say, they became religious fanatics and took up christian crusades and conversions. End of story, end of Germanic expansion.

Anyway, whats the point in apologising for christianity when hardly anyone in NW Europe believes in it any more?
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #46
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Originally Posted by Germania Magna View Post
So where are they today?

Every Germanic tribe that failed to secure Germanic living space before they converted to christianity disappeared forever. All Germanic lands were founded by pagans. Does that tell you anything?

Germanic tribes invaded from southern Scandinavia and all of the other lands that are Germanic today were taken from Celts and Slavs. There is no reason why that could not have continued beyond the Rhine. What happened is that they converted to an alien and universalistic religion, lost the will to survive as a people and ultimately disappeared. As you say, they became religious fanatics and took up christian crusades and conversions. End of story, end of Germanic expansion.
That’s not only a logical fallacy but also simply untrue.

It’s a logical fallacy because you only take their faith into account, whereas you disregard all other factors and circumstances(size of the subjugated peoples, size of the invading Germanic peoples, environmental and socio-cultural factors for migration, political alliances etc).

It’s untrue because I can name, from the top of my head, eastern Germany, eastern Prussia(the Slavs weren’t even around in Pagan times or at least not significant, by the way) or most of Austria and Switzerland, as examples to the contrary, which all were only (re)gained in times when Germany was Christian but above all, politically united.

Other, more “recent”, examples are the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc.
The current state of these countries is irrelevant in this aspect, since the European Germanic, originally Pagan, lands are not much better off than them.

Quote:
Anyway, whats the point in apologising for christianity when hardly anyone in NW Europe believes in it any more?
That has little to do with anything I said and is actually another logical fallacy.
To make an example by the same reasoning: Hardly anyone believes in Paganism either nowadays so why propagate it?

Just because I'm not dismissive of the last 1000 years of our history it doesn't mean that I support Christianity by the way.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #47
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the recent examples don't mean anything. It was overwhelmingly dependent on technology, definitely not on fighting spirit.

Whenever fighting against a group on similar technology, Christians will lose. There is nothing in Christianity promoting fighting, only promoting meekness and refuse of power. Christianity itself is against any worldly power and therefore relies on the Christian God to give them their victory. But the God is Jewish and decides on the base of that to whom he gives support.
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Old Monday, April 23rd, 2012   #48
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That’s not only a logical fallacy but also simply untrue.

It’s a logical fallacy because you only take their faith into account, whereas you disregard all other factors and circumstances(size of the subjugated peoples, size of the invading Germanic peoples, environmental and socio-cultural factors for migration, political alliances etc).
Failure to take other empirical causes into account in an explanation of events wouldnt count as a logical fallacy.

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It’s untrue because I can name, from the top of my head, eastern Germany, eastern Prussia(the Slavs weren’t even around in Pagan times or at least not significant, by the way) or most of Austria and Switzerland, as examples to the contrary, which all were only (re)gained in times when Germany was Christian but above all, politically united.
OK there are exceptions to the rule but the rule remains true that the vigorous expansion of the Germanic tribes came to an end with christianity. Im looking at the general pattern not just at the exceptions.

Germanics werent simply politically united, we became the governing political force of the christian empire, which was multi-ethnic. That way our energy was expended on multi-ethnic christian "order" rather than Germanic expansion.

Quote:
Other, more “recent”, examples are the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc.
The current state of these countries is irrelevant in this aspect, since the European Germanic, originally Pagan, lands are not much better off than them.
I think that the current state of our recent colonies is relevant, it indicates a failure to secure Germanic living space, whatever the condition now of christianised traditional Germanic homelands.

I respect that you are not a christian and I accept that this one could be argued back and forth like a ping pong game with the available data lol.
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Old Tuesday, April 24th, 2012   #49
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Originally Posted by Juthunge
Just because I'm not dismissive of the last 1000 years of our history it doesn't mean that I support Christianity by the way.
This last 1000 years led us where we are: a multiracial hellhole like the Roman empire was. A happy rainbow nations "United States of EUSSR".

It's not about being dismissive, but about seeing the errors in that history, the errors that led us there. We've taken some wrong paths in the past, and one was to "adopt" a universal religion.

Cult is what brings forth culture, and cult is what fuels culture. Luckily, christianity became paganised to a degree that it could not damage too much of our culture. But it's a decadence religion, a religion, like Buddhism, for a dying people. What christianity didnt manage in all those centuries, was at last managed by an ideology, a christian - Hegellian - Kantian - Lockean ideology stripped off the divine: cultural marxism, eradicating one bit after another of culture, leaving us rootless and aimless.

Christianity could not only not prevent this, it is one of the main sources for it. So why keep it? It's a source of danger that we cannot effort to have anymore.

Religion, as a function of society, is both a necessity and a human desire. So we should have one, as an offer for those who desire a religion. And as a well of cultural drive. As a container for our ancient history. As the embodiment of the things and achievements that we take pride in. That we celebrate. That we honor. That's why Paganism is the only appropiate choice. It belongs to us. It is what we brought forth when we were still ourselves.

There actually is no such thing as a "universal" religion, despite that the superstition of millions of people in the last centuries made them believe so. There are only folk gods. Most people here freak out when one appreciates another people's products (things to use which dont make you Chinese, Japanese, Indian, whatever), but when it comes to religion, the same people readily accept another people's god, worship their history instead of our own, learn their "divine" genealogies instead of our own, worship their folk heroes instead of our own, etc. And I wonder why? This is what really is a danger to our culture, and in fact to our people, countries and race. Where is the consistency? Where is common sense? What are we going to "preserve" when all that defines us, that makes up our history, the replaced ancient and the based on that replacement more recent one alike, are only partly our own, in which countless other people claim their part? The Greek, the Romans, the Jews..., who claim to be source of all civilisation, to which their countries are living proof to the contrary, but people here, christians and christian apologists, still believe it?


The thing that christianity proved is that you can even invent a religion at large from scratch, impose it on people and once they believe it, it's a self-runner and a great tool to keep people under control. Religion is a political tool. Now, as a "preservationist" (that's actually not the right word maybe, as I have a vision and am not overly interested to preserve the status quo...), I dont want religion as a tool to subject and suppress, but as a tool that serves the wellbeing of my people, their advancement as a people and as a tool to create a "we" in the mess that is "them", an identity that is our own and only our own. That's not a "brotherhood of all people" but a Germanic identity. We also dont need to invent everything from scratch. We know a lot, and what we know needs to be teached. And those with religious desire will believe in it, they will believe in our gods, and in some decades it will be the most natural thing again because people will fill it with life again. It will fuel our culture again, it will influence art, poetry, literature and our will to live.

I believe that it is one of those things that need to be done in order that we as a people will survive, and not only survive but grow once more. We were an "immature" culture, just awakening to our strength, and with leaving out the "adult" phase, we've been thrown into the decadence phase of a dying people, an old people that thinks it has seen and done everything and now is ready to leave the stage. But this is not the case. The Awakening in the 19th century was proof that there is still a life force within us. I dont know, maybe it was bombed to death and cant be awaken once more. But if we dont try, there is no point in calling yourself a "preservationist", a "nationalist" or whatever, you could just accept the decadent world as it is, enjoy the things that it offers and dont care about anything. If you think though that we can actually do something, and indeed should, then you're of course free to develop your own vision for the future, this above is mine, one part of it at least.
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Old Tuesday, April 24th, 2012   #50
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Take for example the Vikings. They went out to conquer, and they did conquer a lot of European heartland, they even sailed to Paris, looted and took it... almost, because they got infected with christianity, were tamed, and shortly after ceased to exist. Look at Britain, the power structures between the regions (Essex, Wessex etc) was established by still Pagan Anglo-Saxons (more Saxon btw than Anglo, however), they imposed their culture and power structures onto whatever lived there. This exists still today, while christianity and the various schisms within christian power structure, Catholic or Anglican, did change naught on that, it only weakened the players on the power planes.
I think you are leaving out a few historical events.
One is that Constantine attacked the pagans of Europe in an attempt to convert them.

As such they were under major pressure to respond in some sort of way. Vikings in a since were a small band of Elite warriors that were created as a response, but the real power they had was something called the "Long Ship" which takes on almost mystical properties to these guys.

Warriros Viking - Terror 1/5


The Long Ship gave the Vikings a technological edge in almost every conflict they had. Because it was light, very fast, and could be sailed up rivers, which made the Vikings Highly mobile, a feat armies in those days just did not have.

The problem here is you cannot defeat ideas with swards or weapons such as that, If that were true, things like Germanic Paganism would for sure be dead.
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