Stauffenberg was indeed a German hero. German nationalists should remember and honour him. :)
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Stauffenberg was indeed a German hero. German nationalists should remember and honour him. :)
@Thorburn
I don't quite agree with your view on Stauffenberg. The failed attempt to assassinate Hitler showed the allies that Germany was internally divided and that Hitler could not even trust his own officers. The effect was that allied confidence was raised and the demand of unconditional surrender remained standing until the bitter end.
Besides, I seriously doubt that the allies would have agreed to any proposals made by another German government - Nazi, Conservative or whatever. From the Anglo-British and Russian point of view the complete destruction of Germany made sense after all. Only by bombing Germany into pieces and significantly reducing her territory and population could another third world war "out of Germany" be prevented. As we all know, this ‘Morgenthauoid‘ strategy worked out very nicely; and it would have been rational - especially for the US - to pursue it in any case - with or without Hitler.
In the actual case Germany at least went down with all flags flying and the Wehrmacht regained its honor by defending her to the end.
Absolutely, I understand better now what you previously tried to bring across. We should break with dead-end Nazi fascism and embrace true patriotism, which is not self-destructing. Germany has learned from the errors of Nazism, I'm sure ... but unfortunately a small handful still don't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorburn
Every country taking part in WWII had a draft force, there were no pure volunteer-armies. As is reasonable, for it isn't possible for any "system" to build up a military force of ten millions only consisting of voluteers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorburn
Aren't the US talking about a draft even now?
So what's the point of "recruits being affected"? All soldiers are recruits when they enter the army.
Civilians? The blockade of the German coast and the seizure of German freighters was a violation of the Geneva Convention, which stipulated that war must not be directed against civilians. But any blockade of Germany would result inevitably in the starvation of hundreds of thousands, as it did in WWI, and was hoped to do so in WWII.
In WWII, however, there was no starvation, even no famine in Germany, for Hitler had taken appropriate precautions. These precautions were not taken by the reactionary Prussian military clique in WWI. So, one can only say, that Hitler was far more careful and had deeper insight into the nature of war than all those Barons of... , Dukes of... , and Kings of ... together.
Yes. The USA had some 40 Aircraft carrier-vessels, and Germany had none. But the US had to deploy most of these ships in the Pacific theatre against the Japanese.Quote:
Only a fool could have missed that in 1944 Germany was outnumbered at ratios between 1:4 and 1:20,
And the Japanese began to attack these very ships from October 1944 on (so three months after the Stauffenberg putch) by Kamikaze. The Americans were frightened and enraged by these Kamikaze. They called them 'Bakas' ('idiots').
Today, it is always claimed, that the Kamikaze achieved nothing, it was only criminal by the Japanese leaders to resort to this etc.
But, dear Thorburn, I have seen an American war-movie made during the war, with Spencer Tracy playing the main role: a US-bomber pilot.
In this film, the US pilot finally is carrying out a Kamikaze attack onto a German aircraft carrier!
Dear Thorburn: the Germans had no aircraft carrier - not a single one -, and there are no reports whatsoever that any American Kamikaze attacks ever took place...
It was the fear of Kamikaze attacks en masse after the invasion of the Japanese main islands, that led to the decision of the atomic bomb drops.
At least this is the reason, Churchill gives for them.
The atomic bombs were so heavy, that they had to be transported by ship from the USA to a Pacific island air base. But the US Navy cruiser transporting the bombs was sunk by a Japanese submarine.
On the way back. Had it been sunk on the way to, the US had lost all their atomic bombs at that time available. For they had only two.
And it would have taken them more than one year to produce one or two new bombs.
During that time, the Wunderwaffen in Germany and in Japan could have been completed.
What you do, Thorburn, is telling history ex post.
If Germany - and with her Europe as a whole - is to remain a US dominion, you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Slayer
Such a sterilized type of would-be-"patriotism" (in German we have the ugly word "Verfassungspatriotismus") is after all an integral part of the FRG's self-definition under the de-facto occupation statute that is its 'constitution' (or rather "basic law"/"Grundgesetz").
Apart from that there are many ways of being a nationalist. Not all of them are "dead-end Nazi fascism" (whatever that may mean).
What price did we pay for "going down with all flags flying"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervitinist
Life is no opera! WWII was not "Götterdämmerung". A responsible leader would have stopped a war without any hope of victory and a leader who cares for his people wouldn't have started a war in the first place! Thus Hitler was neither responsible nor did he care for our German people in the end [because the Russian people had shown they were stronger].
As ironic as it is, by fighting to the bitter end, the Germans affirmed their dignity and purpose of their lives. Something which even an American buffoon can understand.Quote:
What price did we pay for "going down with all flags flying"?
Life is no opera! WWII was not "Götterdämmerung". A responsible leader would have stopped a war without any hope of victory and a leader who cares for his people wouldn't have started a war in the first place! Thus Hitler was neither responsible nor did he care for our German people in the end [because the Russian people had shown they were stronger].
The end of WWII has nothing to do with an opera. The rationale behind the Anglo-british style of warfare in WWII included the reduction of Germany's population and territory, just as the German strategy included the reduction of Polish and Russian populations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lönebergar
This is no Wagnerian tragedy but the dry logic of warfare.
Read the McNamara quote in my signature and you will find the same spirit. The Vietnam war is (from the US perspective) another good example of how to deal with enemy populations in mathematical rather than humanistic terms.
It is time people woke up and smell the coffee. In the modern reality of the 21st century, America and Europe need each other like never before. If the USA will not come to our help in Europe, we will soon be completely swamped by Islamism. Add to that the undoubted, but silent, rise of China and India, Europe and the USA will need to form an ever closer alliance against the Asian hordes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervitinist
Heros should know self-sacrifice, he was too much of a coward.
He could have just used his gun, the chances he had, but he was too scared as it seems, therefor he paid, the NS "Führerprinzip" (leaders principle) worked perfectly :)
