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Germanic Urheimat Among the Goths

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  • Germanic Urheimat Among the Goths

    What occurs to me from looking at prehistoric maps of the Germanic Urheimat, is that it is identical to the expanse of the folks with Gothic demonymy. If Jylland, Goetaland and Gotland are combined, this is the region most commonly depicted as the so-called matrix or womb of folks as related by Jordanes. As Odin or Woden has been said to be the Allfather, while his and their tribal name, along with "god", all share the etymology of the word "ingot", then perhaps we ought to consider ourselves as Goths on the whole, with nuances and variances. While Goths are said to have been East Germanic and Jutes West Germanic, the Geats are supposed to be North Germanic, but this would have to be the only tribe universal between branches of Germanic.

    This is also the most widespread, literate and Christian group of Germanic tribes. Arianism functioned as a proto-Protestantism, Goths otherwise being key to Christian dissemination in places like Rome and Canterbury. Runic is traceable to the Alps among Italic scripts, whilst the Gothic alphabet was an amalgamation of these and Greek--the latter had come alongside the Arian faith. Goths of one name or another were in all the major provinces of Rome, dominating in those well known for wealth and gravitas upon which surrounding areas were dependent. The Gothic settlements of Eastern Europe, even as far as Crimea, have been coveted timelessly by following eras of Germanic lands in the Ostsiedlung and Baltic Crusades, into the 20th century.

    It seems as though hair-splitting on pronunciation and spelling is the usual approach to discussion of the splinters of this tribe and this invariably leads to dissipation of focus. A common origin ought to most assuredly be asserted for understanding the root of all Germanic folks in general. As Shakespeare wrote: "A rose by any other name..." It should not matter what designation is chosen. Perhaps the usual European spelling of Goth can alternatively be exchanged for Jute, or even Geat, because it must be stressed that the East Germanic branch was not the only one, that they and we have not become extinct. So, why not reclassify North Germanic as Geatish, West Germanic as Jutish and East Germanic as Gothic?

    Who else can understand Our Lord's Prayer in Gothic and attest to the Protestant Reformation aligning as well with your family origins as with any other, regardless of where you come from? Maybe "Germany" is the Latin name, kind of like Allemagne, while Teutonic might be restricted more to the Teutonic tribe that had less of a presence across the lands, just made the first impressions upon Rome before the time of Augustus. Of course, tribal gods like Odin for the Goths also included Tyr for the Teutons, Yngvi-Freyr for the Anglo-Frisians, maybe Thor for the Thuringians. This accounts for our days of the week, while even the name of Saturn might have been vaguely similar enough to Surtr for conflation.
    https://forums.skadi.net/filedata/fetch?type=thumb&filedataid=113340

  • #2
    Germanic culture came from Northern Germany (Jastorf culture) but was likely largely developed amongst the area where the Goths would come to dominate, yes.

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    • #3
      Battle Axe too?
      https://forums.skadi.net/filedata/fetch?type=thumb&filedataid=113340

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Baorn View Post
        Battle Axe too?
        That too, but it only ever become "Germanic" when R1b-U106 moved in.

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        • #5
          Prove it. There is no evidence, only conjecture.
          https://forums.skadi.net/filedata/fetch?type=thumb&filedataid=113340

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Baorn View Post
            Prove it. There is no evidence, only conjecture.
            From Eupedia (probably the most reputable active source on this entire field):

            "The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106 or M405). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards."

            In future though, if you want evidence, DIY - you can't expect me to cite everything, and certainly you don't for some of your more ridiculous claims.

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            • #7
              Those are just assertions without evidence and you are making an appeal to authority which is a logical fallacy.
              https://forums.skadi.net/filedata/fetch?type=thumb&filedataid=113340

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Baorn View Post
                Those are just assertions without evidence and you are making an appeal to authority which is a logical fallacy.
                I think I'm done talking to you, words just seem to go right through.

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                • #9
                  The feeling is mutual. Those people make a bunch of anachronistic guesses about test tubes from modern populations.
                  https://forums.skadi.net/filedata/fetch?type=thumb&filedataid=113340

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Anglo-Briton View Post
                    That too, but it only ever become "Germanic" when R1b-U106 moved in.
                    Greetings, but no, you are wrong, the Jastorf culture is a Germanic culture level from the pre-Roman Iron Age, also around 600 b.C., which means this is not the first Germanic culture level, this is more in the so-called Donau civilization to seek (5000 b.C. - 3500 b.C.) , from which later the pile-dwelling culture or also burial mounds emerged. What is interesting, the Danubian Zvilisation is also considered the primordial culture of the Mionic, the first Greek and since again interesting, that all mentioned, as well as the Goths have their origin between Baltic and Friesland.


                    ....

                    In the end, sorry for my rather moderate English, that's because, unfortunately, this is not my mother tongue, but this is the German.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Anglo-Briton View Post
                      From Eupedia (probably the most reputable active source on this entire field):

                      "The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106 or M405). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE (probably alongside R1a-L664), thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE). R1b-S21 would then have blended for more than a millennium with preexisting Scandinavian populations, represented by haplogroups I1, I2-L801, R1a-Z284. When the Germanic Iron Age started c. 500 BCE, the Scandinavian population had developed a truly Germanic culture and language, but was divided in many tribes with varying levels of each haplogroup. R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards."

                      In future though, if you want evidence, DIY - you can't expect me to cite everything, and certainly you don't for some of your more ridiculous claims.
                      So what about the Y-Haplogroups E, I, J then? They also seem to be appearing in Germanic nations alongside R Y-Haplogroups.

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                      • #12
                        I would only say that I, R1 and N fit in Germanic countries. The others you wrote, plus Q, have to be foreign not only to Germanic, but Europe as well.

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                        • #13
                          The Proto-Germanic Urheimat was in North-Germany. In Scandinavia lived the Pre-Germanic Finno-Ugors. In South Germany lived the Proto-Italicus (Latins, Samnis, Sabins, etc.) and the Kelts. B.C. 100 the Goths moved to North to nowadays South-Sweden and after they moved to Noth-Poland.
                          sigpic
                          "Remember that, even when those who move you be kings or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus,"or that virtue "was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."
                          /King Baldwin IV in the Kingdom of Heaven/

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