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ChrisDownUnder
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 07:09 AM
After reading the 'Favourite Tolkien Character' thread, I thought I would mention something that was bothering me from Peter Jackson's movies. Specifically, the charge of the Rohirrim horsemen, both at the Battle for Helm's Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, as depicted in the film.

On both occasions the Rohirrim charge a dense line of Uruk-hai/Orc pikemen, and are able to apparently break the line fairly easily.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_TTT_01.jpg
The Battle for Helm's Deep

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_RTK_01.jpg
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

In computer games I have played (latest being Rome:Total War), a similar practice has resulted in significant losses for my horsemen. This leads me to question the accuracy of these scenes in the film.

It also appears that the Rohirrim, despite having a culture closely based on horses and horsemanship, seem in the films to display little tactical expertise in handling horses in battle. For example, they charge the mumakils in a straight line, a simplistic tactic that would surely not be the most effective, and would result in heavy casualties. :scratch:

Vanir
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 08:16 AM
After reading the 'Favourite Tolkien Character' thread, I thought I would mention something that was bothering me from Peter Jackson's movies. Specifically, the charge of the Rohirrim horsemen, both at the Battle for Helm's Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, as depicted in the film.

On both occasions the Rohirrim charge a dense line of Uruk-hai/Orc pikemen, and are able to apparently break the line fairly easily.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_TTT_01.jpg
The Battle for Helm's Deep

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_RTK_01.jpg
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

In computer games I have played (latest being Rome:Total War), a similar practice has resulted in significant losses for my horsemen. This leads me to question the accuracy of these scenes in the film.

It also appears that the Rohirrim, despite having a culture closely based on horses and horsemanship, seem in the films to display little tactical expertise in handling horses in battle. For example, they charge the mumakils in a straight line, a simplistic tactic that would surely not be the most effective, and would result in heavy casualties. :scratch:


You hit the nail on the head, the Battle of Helm's Deep was one of the worst parts of the Trilogy IMO, it was rather weak, to put it mildly, the way Aragorn, Theoden, and a mere handful men charged out into what looks like 20,000 Orcs, and the Orcs just melt away from them like Dominos. I shouldn't criticize, as I couldn't exactly produce a movie like that myself, but that part was really badly done and so unrealistic it bordered upon appalling.

ChrisDownUnder
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 11:09 AM
.. it was rather weak, to put it mildly, the way Aragorn, Theoden, and a mere handful men charged out into what looks like 20,000 Orcs, and the Orcs just melt away from them like Dominos. I shouldn't criticize, as I couldn't exactly produce a movie like that myself, but that part was really badly done and so unrealistic it bordered upon appalling.Yes, if you watch this scene in slow-motion, it looks rather comical, too obviously done with CGI.

In the book Saruman's forces (Uruk-hai and wild men from Dunland, the movie only featured Uruk-hai, approximately 10,000 strong) were ultimately defeated psychologically rather than by feat of arms. A combination of Helm Hammerhand's horn, and the arrival of Gandalf, Erkenbrand and the men of the Westfold.

page 564:
"The Orcs upon the rock, hearing the rumour of dismay (the Horn), wavered and looked back. ... Many of the Orcs cast themselves on their faces and covered their ears with their claws."

page 565:
"The White Rider (Gandalf) was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again."

This scene, in abbreviated form, of the Uruk-hai retreating into the 'forest' of Huorns, is shown in the Extended Edition of The Two Towers.

Like you SURT, I am not criticizing Jackson's movies. I still think they are brilliantly done, just pointing out a few minor flaws. ;)

Death and the Sun
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 12:11 PM
After reading the 'Favourite Tolkien Character' thread, I thought I would mention something that was bothering me from Peter Jackson's movies. Specifically, the charge of the Rohirrim horsemen, both at the Battle for Helm's Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, as depicted in the film.

On both occasions the Rohirrim charge a dense line of Uruk-hai/Orc pikemen, and are able to apparently break the line fairly easily.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_TTT_01.jpg
The Battle for Helm's Deep

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/Christopher1488/Web%20Photos/LOTR_RTK_01.jpg
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

In computer games I have played (latest being Rome:Total War), a similar practice has resulted in significant losses for my horsemen. This leads me to question the accuracy of these scenes in the film.

It also appears that the Rohirrim, despite having a culture closely based on horses and horsemanship, seem in the films to display little tactical expertise in handling horses in battle. For example, they charge the mumakils in a straight line, a simplistic tactic that would surely not be the most effective, and would result in heavy casualties. :scratch:


I think Theoden's rousing speech and the following cavalry charge in RotK is probably the most uplifting and openly pro-European moment in the entire trilogy, so there's no way I'm going to condemn it, despite it being admittedly unrealistic. :viking4:

Although the way they change the Mumakils was badly done, I agree. They basically just throw themselves into the spikes and spears attached to their tusks, instead of more sophisticated tactics such as flanking or surrounding them.

Also the scene where …owyn rides under the Mumakil and manages to hamstring it with a few swipes of her sword was pretty laughable. :D

In reality the creature probably would not even have noticed …owyn's attempts to pierce its skin.

Zyklop
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Also the scene where Éowyn rides under the Mumakil and manages to hamstring it with a few swipes of her sword was pretty laughable. :D


Still this can´t keep up with the scene were Legolas single-handedly takes out a whole Mumakil + crew...:rolleyes:

Nordhammer
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 01:08 PM
They make movies with the idea of what affect it will have on people. So while the scene you mention isn't very strategic, it is the emotional response, the epic charge, that they are going for.

Just like in many martial arts movies the big jump kicks are for flash and not something real martial artists would do. Not only is it a waste of energy it also leaves you wide open.

JŠnos Hunyadi
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Still this canīt keep up with the scene were Legolas single-handedly takes out a whole Mumakil + crew...:rolleyes:

And then he rides down it's trunk like a slide!!! :P

Gimli: "It still only counts as one!!"

newenstad
Sunday, July 17th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Gimli: "It still only counts as one!!"
:rotfl:

JŠnos Hunyadi
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 12:22 AM
:rotfl:

Even better was when he rode his shield down the stairs at Helm's Deep like a snowboard killing 4 Uruk-hai with his bow on the way down!! :laugh:

Fox
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Rassenhass, do you play R:TW and/or Battle for Middle Earth online at all?

Death and the Sun
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 09:44 AM
Even better was when he rode his shield down the stairs at Helm's Deep like a snowboard killing 4 Uruk-hai with his bow on the way down!! :laugh:

I think his best trick was in the final battle scene in FotR: he sticks one Uruk in the eye or throat with an arrow, pulls it out and then immediate shoots the same arrow into another Uruk. :viking1:

Legolas is the good role Orlando Bloom ever played, and even in that role he left something to be desired. The elves were somewhat androgynous, yes, but that to me does not translate as being just a pretty boy.



I wish there had been more skull-splitting axe action starring the magnificent Gimli!

I don't think he even once screamed the Dwarvish battlecry: :viking4:Khaz‚d ai-mÍnu!:viking4:

Nordgau
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Legolas is the good role Orlando Bloom ever played, and even in that role he left something to be desired. The elves were somewhat androgynous, yes, but that to me does not translate as being just a pretty boy.

I find the Elrond they presented in the movie, outwardly, a rather obscene choice. Hugo Weaving looks rather like a rouged pimp than giving an idea of the noble top elf. :gay:

When the film came out in 2001, I remember having read a comment by Jackson (or an other high fellow who was responsible for costumizing the folks in LOTR, but I think it was Jackson himself) that he wanted to break up a bit the extremely high idealistic-aesthetic image of the elves in Tolkien's work. I don't remember anymore if he said it so direct, but it came in any case through that he found Tolkien's idea of the elves a bit "racist" inspired ...

http://www.menteabierta.org/html/articulos/gifs_articulos/LOTR_II_Elrond.jpg
http://www.laurelindorenan.com/Elrond%202.jpg

Nordhammer
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 11:29 AM
I'm actually quite surprised they didn't have more semi-white mongrels in these roles... Jackson and staff did a decent job keeping it racially appropriate.

JŠnos Hunyadi
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 05:51 PM
I'm actually quite surprised they didn't have more semi-white mongrels in these roles... Jackson and staff did a decent job keeping it racially appropriate.


Well, believe it or not. . . .

Vin Diesel actually tried out for the role of Aragorn. Needless to say, he was turned away on the first day!! :D

JŠnos Hunyadi
Monday, July 18th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I find the Elrond they presented in the movie, outwardly, a rather obscene choice. Hugo Weaving looks rather like a rouged pimp than giving an idea of the noble top elf. :gay:

I just kept on thinking about Agent Smith every time I saw him. :coffee:

I'm suprised that he wasn't offered a role in the Star Wars prequel Trilogy in addition to the Matrix and LOTR! :rotfl:

Also, what the hell was with casting Liv Tyler as Arwen? I wouldn't even give her a job at McDonald's let alone a part in the LOTR Trilogy!! :annoysigr