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Digitalseal
Sunday, January 29th, 2006, 01:09 AM
According to the world factbook it says "composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types" in Ethnic groups in doesn't say which group is larger

But i've been often to spain and know a lot Spaniards and they normaly look more Nordic mostly by facial features and eye colour is more green and blue, and Brown seems is the most common hair colour. And the really looking Mediterraneans are usually those from Andalucia (southern spain).

Agrippa
Sunday, January 29th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Terms explained in this thread:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=43330

The Spanish are obviously more Mediterranid than Nordid, but both elements exist beside other types like Alpinoid.
Atlantomediterranids are closer to Nordids than Gracilmediterranids, but both (sub-) types are Mediterranid and the exact proportions of typical Nordids, typical Mediterranids and intermediate forms ('Atlantid') are hard to determine.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, January 29th, 2006, 02:50 AM
This is a strange one since most people instinctively associate Spain with Mediterranean. Iberia held one of the refuge sites for Europeans during the last ice age. Afterward, these people spread mostly north. Keltic peoples thrived in Spain where a whole culture was apparently based on chestnuts as a staple food. Later the Germanic Visigoths found a home there. Of course Spain has always had Med. peoples as well from the Neolithic onward. Throw in some Atlanto-Meds. and we have alot of confusion. But Spain is no different from this than most European countries. This is why Coon used the simplist countries in terms of ancient migration to make his arguments, Ireland and Norway. If you move anywhere else, you encounter seemingly endless migrations making anything and any argument possible.

garethMann
Tuesday, February 14th, 2006, 02:58 AM
Spain has had a long history of cultural contact and colonization from both the Middle East and Africa, but also, being part of Europe it naturally has a long history of
European migrations as well.

According to the National Geographic ‘Genographic Project’ (https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html (https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html)), Europeans with the Y-Chromosome M173 originally came to Europe 35,000 years ago, the M173 is now the dominant Y-chromosome in Europe. During the Ice Age, these people were forced to migrant into Spain, but once this Ice age passed they were able to return to the rest of Europe. From this one could presume that at the end of the Ice Age, Spain would have been populated by the same people as the rest of Western Europe, in fact most Western Europeans probably had originated in Spain.

However according to the same source, during the Neolithic, peoples from the Near East (with the M172 Y-chromosome) migrated across the Mediterranean bringing Agriculture with them. Thus at this point we would see a mix of European (M173) and Middle Eastern (M172) inhabitants.

In the Iron Age, Phoenicians from the Levant, followed by Carthaginians from North Africa (but genetically mainly of Near Eastern Origin), came and settled the South. Followed by the Romans, and then the Visigoths (a Gothic tribe). Then in the 8th century the Moors arrived, which were a mix of Native ‘Berbers’ of North Africa and ‘Arabs’ from the Middle East. During this period the ruling Arabs settled in the Cities of the South of Spain, and the “lower class” Berbers in the rural parts of Spain. The Muslim rulers of Spain were tolerant of other peoples but encouraged conversion by taxing non-Muslims a lot more. During this period many Jews migrated to Spain as well. Note that the Muslim faith does not forbid multi-religious marriages as long as the children are raised as Muslims. Since the Muslims controlled almost the whole peninsula except for a small slither along the Northern coast, it is likely that most Iberian families in the Muslim area eventually converted to Islam rather than migrating to the North (just as most of the peoples in other parts of the pre-Islamic Mediterranean World had). Thus at this point Spain would have been a melting pot of various ethnic groups that had come to the Peninsula over the course of millennia of history gradually converting to Islam over generations

The dominant held belief in Spain, and the most common historical theory is that during the Christian ‘Reconquest’, non-Christians were literally driven out of reconquered areas and new Christian migrants brought in, the Muslims and Jews were then forced to either convert or leave, those that stayed became known as ‘Moriscos’ who were allowed to stay until the seventeenth century when all racial ‘Moriscos’ regardless of religion were expelled from the Kingdom.

Most Spanish therefore consider themselves as ‘pure’ Europeans, descended from the Northern “slither” of Christian Spain or from other parts of Europe (many of the ‘Reconquistadors’ came from France and the Holy roman Empire). Thus they claim that none of them are descended from Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Arabs, Jews, or even Visigoths (apart from the few Visigoths that had either lived in or fled to the far North).
But can this really be true? Was there really no racial mixing in the long period of Muslim Domination? Well if it is true we would expect to find the following traits in the genetic record:

1) Basically no Non-European Genes at all. Since Muslim Spain was a melting pot and a culmination of millennia of migrations from 3 different continents including Europe, with no single group being the majority. A 10% of any single non-European gene group (such as ‘Berber’ for example) remaining today in Spain would probably indicate at least a 30% of the population being descended from the ‘pre-Christian Reconquest’ days.
2) No regional differences whatsoever in the genetic make-up of Modern Spain. Throughout Spanish History, Europeans were much more prevalent in the North, whilst Middle Eastern and North Africans dominated the South. However once the “Reconquest” occurred, none of this would matter, because virtually all these people were removed and the newly acquired territories were repopulated with migrants from the North.

However the genetic record seems to contradict this, there is evidence that small amounts of non-European genes still exist in Spain, furthermore, the further South you go, the more Non-European the genes appear to be.
Ironically, on some website, I found someone who was obviously ignorant of Spanish History trying to use this evidence to argue for the white racial purity of Spain (http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/spain.htm), when in fact that exact evidence appears to point to the opposite. That this “repopulation” of the South is only partly true, and that many of the ancient inhabitants of the region must have remained, converted to Christianity, inter-married and hidden themselves into the fabric of Modern Spain.

Katharsis
Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 07:37 PM
About "March of the Titans" and especially Chapter 22. I'm going to copy it here, but it is better if you read it in the webpage that have some images:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/titans_22_1.html


Refuting Arthur Kemp
March of the Titans, Chapter 22 (Part I)
Lessons in Decline - Spain and Portugal

Arthur Kemp writes
As to be expected, with both Spain and Portugal, the population changes are also evident - and are also directly linked to the leading and then reduced roles these nations have played in not only White history, but also of world history.
The truth
Both countries were a source of immigrants. From the XVI to the second half of the XIX century, both Portugal and Spain "exported" people. Only very recently, after the decolonization period, did some Africans settle themselves in Portugal. Even today they still make about 1% of the total Portuguese population, and the vast majority lives a much harder life than the average Portuguese. Mixed marriages are rare not only because the native Portuguese and the African immigrants are usually from completely different social layers, but also due to the immigrants usually turning to their own people and to their own culture when they decide to raise a family.

Arthur Kemp writes
The next people to enter the Iberian peninsula after it had been settled by the Neolithic Old Europeans were the Semitic/Indo-European /Old European mix known as the Phoenicians, who had established trading posts on the southern coast of Spain prior to 1000 BC, working from their base in the city they founded in North Africa, Carthage. The Spanish towns of Cadiz, Malaga and Cordoba all date from this time.
The truth
As usual, Arthur Kemp is highly inaccurate about historical dates and facts. The city of Carthage was founded by Tyrian (Phoenician) settlers as late as 814-813 BC. In reality, the Phoenician colonies were - just as Carthage was - controlled by the powerful Tyrian merchant class.

Arthur Kemp writes
Then the first pure Indo-Europeans arrived around 600 BC, when the Classical Greeks established colonies in the north eastern part of Spain. They later expanded southwards down into the modern day town of Valencia.
The truth
The only two known Greek colonies in Hispania were both located in the Catalan coast, and they were called Emporion and Rhodes. Both colonies were founded in the VI century BC.

Arthur Kemp writes
After the first Punic War between Rome and Carthage in 237 BC, the Carthaginians strengthened their bases in Spain, founding the cities of Cartagena and Barcelona. The Nordic Carthaginian general Hannibal used Spain as a jumping off place for his great invasion of Italy. The ultimate defeat of Carthage at the end of the Punic Wars saw all the Carthaginian colonies in Spain surrendered to Roman rule. It took 75 years for the Romans to finally establish strict control over all the Iberians, but after that they were to remain masters of Spain for the next five centuries. During this time the Romans were to create many of their long lasting architectural structures - the magnificent aqueduct at Segovia, which after 1,800 years still carries that town's water supplies, is a prime example.
The truth
The first Punic war lasted from 264 to 241 BC. I wonder how Hannibal, a north African general of Semitic (Tyrian) ancestry was Nordic, but my main concern is Portugal and I will refute only what is related to my country. At the end of the Second Punic War (220-202 BC), the Romans took control of the Carthaginean portion of the Iberian Peninsula, which they divided in two provinces: Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior.

Arthur Kemp writes
Although the Visigoths had subdued the Vandals and Suebians, relations between the latter two groups preceded to worsen over a number of domestic issues, and the two tribes went to war with each other around 420 AD.
The truth
From 409 to 411, the German invaders killed thousands of men, women and children, sacked cities and ruined one of the most prosperous provinces of the Roman Empire. This is corroborated not only by Roman writers and by the number of bishops and civilians who fled to north Africa, but also by the large number of hidden jewelry and Roman coins datable from those years.

Arthur Kemp writes
One of the first laws which the Gothic kingdom in Spain established was a ban on all mixed marriages. Goths were only allowed to marry Goths, and punishment for violating this ban was burning at the stake.This overtly racial law kept the intermixing of Goths with all others to an absolute minimum - and particularly with the growing Jewish population.
The truth
From the Visigothic Code (http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/vg3-1.htm) (forum judicum) of the gothic king Flavius Recesvintus (652-672 AD)II. It shall be as Lawful for a Roman Woman to Marry a Goth, as for a Gothic Woman to Marry a Roman.The zealous care of the prince is recognized, when, for the sake of future utility, the benefit of the people is provided for; and it should be a source of no little congratulation, if the ancient law, which sought improperly to prevent the marriage of persons equal in dignity and lineage, should be abrogated. For this reason, we hereby sanction a better law; and, declaring the ancient one to be void, we decree that if any Goth wishes to marry a Roman woman, or any Roman a Gothic woman, permission being first requested, they shall be permitted to marry. And any freeman shall have the right to marry any free woman; permission of the Council and of her family having been previously obtained.Considering that the Goths were a minority (5-10% of the Iberian population), they had every interest in mixing with the locals. In fact, a recent anthropological study in a Visigoth graveyard (http://www.geocities.com/refuting_kemp/visigoth.html) located in present-day Portugal corroborates my statement. I believe no more comments are necessary in regards to this issue.

Arthur Kemp writes
Gothic Spain settled down into a period of relative peace and resultant prosperity, with the only discordant note being sounded by the large Jewish population.
The truth
Gothic Hispania was always an unstable kingdom thanks to the lack of an hereditary law of succession: kings were elected, and this often led to wars (in the last one, the Goths ended up asking the Moors for ,military assistance and thus caused the Muslim invasion of the Iberian Peninsula (http://libro.uca.edu/stanislawski/Chapt10.htm)). The Muslims were greatly helped by the Jews. Thanks to their expertise as traders, bankers, scientists and advisors, Muslim Hispania became the most sophisticated land in Europe (http://www.xmission.com:8000/~dderhak/index/moors.htm), at a time when the rest of the former Western Roman empire was facing the worst period of the Dark Ages (partly as a result of the barbaric invasions).

Arthur Kemp writes
The period of reconquest of Spain by the White Goths made up yet another great race war in Europe, a duel fought to the death which finally ended in 1492 AD when the last Moorish citadel, Granada in the south, surrendered to the White armies.
The truth
Thanks to king Recesvinth's law allowing marriages between Romans and Goths, by 1492 there were no ethnic Goths left. If we add to this 150-780 years of Moorish presence, that ruins Mr. Kemp's case even further. Let us not forget that the bulk of the Gothic aristocracy abandoned king Rodrigo by defecting to the Moorish side . The reader will notice how Arthur Kemp remembers the presence of the Moors when he addresses the downfall of the two Iberian Empires. Arthur Kemp claims that there were pure Goths 1000 years after their arrival in the Peninsula, and yet he says that the Portuguese people of 1500 is not the same as the Portuguese people of 1990. Logical isn't it? Of course not.

Arthur Kemp writes
Although a certain amount of mixing with the Moors in Southern Spain had taken place, by the time of the expulsion of the last Moors from Spain, the majority of Whites had not mixed with the Muslim invaders, and remained true to their Gothic lineage, absorbing only a number of Sephardic Jews who had truly converted to Catholicism.
The truth
The Goths represented 5-10% of the total Iberian population. In 1492, there are no reasons to believe that the core of the Iberian population was visibly any different than what it was during the Roman rule (or prior to that, for that matter). The Carthagineans were a minority, as were the Greeks, the Romans, the Germans and the Moors. Their genetic contribution was proportional to their diminute numbers. The Moors had a particularly small contribution due to the fact that the descendants of the Iberians that converted to Islam or that mixed with the Muslim invaders later fled to Granada or to Morocco during the Reconquista. While it is reasonable to assume that some might have been forcefuly baptised and eventually absorbed, the Moorish contribution has been largely over-estimated.

Arthur kemp writes
The Spanish word for gentleman, hildago, in fact means literally the "son of the Goth" and the great Spanish rulers Ferdinand and Isabella, who led the liberation from Moorish rule, were both red headed Goths.
The truth
"Hidalgo" means literally "Hijo d'algo" (son of someone - "someone" meaning someone of importance). In Portuguese the word is "fidalgo", because in Portuguese the word for son is "filho" rather than the Castillian "hijo". If Arthur Kemp knew any Portuguese or Castillian he would know that in both languages the word for "Goth" is "Godo" - completely different and unrelated to "Hidalgo" or "Fidalgo". Ferdinand and Isabella were both brown haired and brown eyed [see picture]


Arthur Kemp writes
In 1492, the Lombard Germanic Christopher Columbus succeeded in persuading the Spanish royalty that the earth was indeed round (...)Financed by the Spanish court, Columbus sailed west, discovering not a new path to India but instead finding Central America
The truth
Columbus did no such thing. He was able to persuade the Spanish queen that he could reach China by sailing West. According to his estimates it would take him 3 weeks. He was obviously wrong, and the only reason why his crew didn't starve to death was thanks to the accidental finding of the island of Hispaniola, modern Haiti (not central America, Mr. Kemp). Furthermore, apparently Columbus didn't even find that... (http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/pilgrim_chapter_12.htm)

Katharsis
Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 07:55 PM
More:

http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/paulswain.html


" MARCH OF THE TITANS " HISTORY ? OF THE WHITE RACE

Many of you have heard of a book called "March of the Titans. The History of the White Race" That you can download from http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/, that tries be an overhaul of the history of all the present and past nations of white race. Until here nothing to say, further more, is one of the scare initiatives made inside the racialism world. But gives a slanted, interested and even clearly manipulated vision of the history of the aryan nations that do not form part of the nordic - germanic field. There is a deviationism to nordic thesis, although in the complete sense of the word, it's not nordicist, because he accepts the original mediterranean white race as compatible with the nordic one, so the mix of both had gave place to the great mediterranean cultures, the greek and roman the base of our Occidental culture, but of the type that consider the south - europeans not as descendants of this mix between original mediterranean people and nordics, but of this nordic - mediterranean that have been infiltrated in a disproportionate way by non white african races

Chapter 22

The chapters dedicated to Spain and Portugal start praising the role that these countries had had in the history of Europe, but his splendor fell down in the moment they lost his racial purity

a) The first inhabitants of Spain.

Tell this book that the first inhabitants of Spain, apart form the primogenial people of European race that inhabit the Peninsula (we must understand for this Iberos and Ligures, although they are not mentioned in the book) were the Phoenicians, and after them the Greeks, following his theory the first pure indoeuropean that arrived to Spain round the year 600 B.C. This people was followed by waves of Celts that occupied big areas of Spain and mixed themselves with the other tribes they found (the problem is that the first Celtic waves arrived in the 800 B.C., 200 years before the Greeks). After that, he talks about the arrival of the Carthaginians, Vandals, Alanos, Suevos and Visigoths, and logically the muslims. It's curious that he mentions in a separate space the Sephardims but not the Romans, so we suppose this is to avoid facts of interest.

Our Replay:

First of all, the invasions of indoeuropean people happened in the same dates as the first contacts of the Phoenicians with the Iberians in the meridional coast and the spanish Levant. Nevertheless, the contribution that made the Phoenicians to the Iberian population was in essence a cultural contribution: the Phoenicians didn't arrive with his families neither with human contingents of importance. No, they were just limited to establish commercial bases to exchange his products with the native population.

Obviously the first 'pure' indoeuropeans that arrived to Spain were not the greeks, but the same inhabitants of the Peninsula, the ones that concede his name: the Iberians. We must make a brief mention of the resemblance between the language, the divinities they praise, the funeral rites, the structure of the Iberianusociety and the values that rule it, that had an incredible similitude, with those people consider as indoeuropeans.

This fact of considering the Iberians as a non - indoeuropean nation, comes from the studies that Schulten made in the firsts 20's years and that for an interpretation error, placed the Iberian as originals of the North of Africa. This theory has nowadays been rejected by the historians. The Iberians, as the Ligures or the Ilírios were aryan populations that settle down in specific european zones much time before the arrival of the Celts or other Germanic tribes.

Even so we want to highlight that the Celtic language, or for being more exacts, a subdivision of this language, was spoken in the Peninsula a century before the Celtics invaded the north of Italy, what gives a clue of the importance, profundity and drench that the celtic culture had in the Iberian Peninsula. Furthermore, the first known cultural manifestations of the Peninsula, as the 'Culture of the Argar' or the 'Culture of the Campos de Urnas' have complete syntony with centereuropean cultural manifestations

More presence in our land had the Carthaginians than the Phoenicians, because not in vain they recruited enormous amounts of Íberos and Celts soldiers for his warlike campaigns (in fact, the father of Anibal was assassinated by a celtíberian member of his personal guard) although their racial inheritance has been null in the Spanish people, something stated by a great number of historians of relevance and enormous prestige (Apart from that it is not not clearly known the origin of the Carthaginians and at least it is knew that the leader caste belonged to the Aryan race).

The Roman and germanic invasions we will leave it apart since it is an aspect that does not need any discussion, but we want to make a note on the abolition of the prohibition of marriages between Hispanic-Roman (although it would be better to indicate, Celtiberian ) and Visigoths which it is mentioned in the book as a fact of racial degeneration. What it was advocated with this measurement was the integration of these nucleus of population giving Spain a unique racial and ethnic configuration. Something, that on the other hand, responded to a concrete reality: the relations between Visigoths and Hispanic-Roman had improved considerably and the symbiosis between both nations was total, and so did not have sense going against the will of both nations. The prohibition did not affect to the dispositions against the Jews, because the Church established well clear the prohibition of marriages between Jews and Christians. Furthermore this prohibition was not only abolished but was dictated a law that called urgently to the fusion between both nations (Hispanic-Roman and Visigoths).

b) The Spaniards after the Reconquest

This chapter is essential within the space that destines Spain. It is spoken in broad features of that the Spaniards remained pure in the north but there was a bastardization in the south. Also it is spoken of the abundant Jewish population that was in Spain.

Later they are made mentions to the expulsions of Jews and moriscos, our Empire... and he says that with the expulsion of the 250.000 moriscos in the days of Felipe II the contribution of the Muslim invaders to the " dark look " of the Spaniards is insignificant. And within this it appears a subparagraph in which was the slavery policy in Spain and in which it is mentioned that not less of a MILLION of black slaves (as you read it, a MILLION) were imported to Spain and as a result of this, the Spaniards mixed themselves with them ,and that is the reason of why the Spanish have the hair brown and the skin darker than the Nordics (already he takes for granted that in Spain there are no people with Nordic appearance, the hair and the eyes of clear color and with the extremely white skin).

Here you can read some parts of the original text : "EXPULSION OF 250,000 MIXED RACE PEOPLES BY PHILIP II The Moors had occupied Spain for over 700 years, so it was inevitable that they would have mixed with the local population over whom they ruled. In this way a not insignificant amount of Moorish - in reality mixed race Arabic/Black - blood entered a few Spanish families in the southernmost parts of Spain and Portugal. The Gothic Spaniards did however recognize this as an issue, and in 1609, the Spanish king, Philip III, ordered the physical expulsion of some 250,000 "Moriscos" or Christianized Moors from the country, purely on the basis of their race and not their religion - a marked difference to the earlier expulsion of the Jews, who, if genuinely converted to Catholicism, were allowed to stay. The vast majority of these Christianized Moors were in reality of mixed race - part Moorish, part White Spanish (hence their adherence to Christianity). This remarkable example of the expulsion on racial grounds was a major reason why the infusion of Moorish blood into Spain was not as significant as it could have been, and thus played only a minor contributing role in the creation of the dark looks for which some Spaniards are still known today. "

IMPORTATION OF BLACK SLAVES - IN EXCESS OF 1 MILLION

Spanish colonial policy was different from colonial policies being pursued by other White nations in Europe (with the exception of Portugal, which followed the Spanish example). Instead of colonizing their acquisitions with millions of their own people, the Spanish used their colonial possessions purely as economic resources. Spanish men who went to South America, the Caribbean or even North America, did not take families or Spanish women with them.

The result was a massive degree of mixing with the local populations in the Spanish colonies, producing an overwhelmingly mixed race population still prevalent in Central and Southern America. In addition to this, the Spaniards, like most other European nations, became users of Black slaves in its colonies - millions of Blacks were imported to South and Central America, adding a further dimension to the racial mix in those territories. However, also in common with Portugal and again differing with the other European nations, a huge number of Black slaves were imported into Spain itself. Although it has never been established what were the exact numbers of Black slaves imported into Spain, the figure was certainly in excess of one million. Almost all of these Blacks from deepest Africa were then absorbed into Spain, significantly altering vast numbers of the Spanish population. The infusion of this huge number of Black slaves into the Spanish population finally created the very dark element in Spanish society to this day, quite incorrectly referred to as part of the "Mediterranean" population of that country. [...] It would however be incorrect to class every single Spaniard with this same brush - many Spaniards did not mix with either the Moors or the Black slaves. These people remained strongest in the north of Spain. "

Our Replay:

The simplification of the Reconquest as a fight between the semitic element and the aryan element is a thing that any historian with a minimum of rigor rejects. First of all because the predominant element between the Spanish population was the aryan (and with this we are not talking about the aryan features that in more or less way could have the andalusians governors of arabic origin) and the fact that the aryan population of Al-Andalus was bigger that the population of semitic origin. Neither we can forget that the major part of the components of the muslim army were Berbers, and even, descendants of Vandals and Alanos (in the first arrivals). It's true that in Al-andalus was settled a non-aryan population, of the kind of nobility rulers or slaves (black slaves imported from Sudan) but it's also true that the presence of troops and different north african tribes was temporary, and that they returned to the North of Africa once they were overthrown, precisely, for the arrival of other 'magrebish' invader tribes

The Granada Kingdom, the last focus of muslim resistance, in the moment of his fall, had a population of 200.000 people, people that came to establish themselves in Granada from other lands that have fallen under Christian domination. After the conquest of Granada, and during the next years to the fall they were migratory processes towards Africa that didn't have many continuity in the time due to the famine and the pest that suffered the north of Africa. Nevertheless, the finishing stroke to these social group (the muslims) came with the expulsions of Moriscos in 1609

We have to explain that what was ejected between 1609 and 1614 were the descendants of the muslims converted to Catholicism (moriscos). They were ejected several generations of muslim descendants, with independence of his race (over the 250.000, although some authors spoke of a number of 180.000) something that produced great losses to the spanish economy and that affected seriously to the depopulation of some regions of Spain, specially the Kingdoms of Aragon and Valencia. The governors of these days preferred the racial and social stability interests to the economical interests. Also, the ejection's processes of moriscos were already made during the revolt of the Alpujarras in 1571

The bibliography about this subject is enough extensive and documented, so we will not make more comments. Anyway we have to make a brief mention about the repopulation process followed after the reconquest that formed an Andalusia of a net Castilian character; apart from the important human apportions of the Kingdoms of Navarra and Aragon, and the colonist arrived from Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria and Vasconia, we must talk about the province of Jaén that was repopulated with German country mans, and more than 40 villages and cities (like 'La Carolina') were founded thanks to this repopulation.

Finally we must highlight one of the thesis of this writer, he says that the Muslim invasion (714 A.C.) was in part a reply to the action of Carlomagno (that was crowned in the year 800 A.C.), what makes the muslims of Tarik, the first tribe of cameleers able to guess the future with a pair of generations of advance...

Now we go with the black slaves subject

According to what says the historian Mr. Juan F. Cabestany in a book: " In the XVI century (kingdoms of Carlos I and Felipe II) there were like 100.000 slaves in all the Iberian Peninsula. Those were or of oriental (mainly Slavic) origin or black africans; while the first descent and were extinguished during the XVIII century, the second group increased to substitute the Slavic. The slaves of oriental origin many times reach the freedom converting themselves to Christianity, as they could not exist christian slaves. This rule wasn't valid for the blacks, being very difficult for them to reach the freedom. The slavery was abolished by the Royal Decree of 7 of October of 1886"

So the black slaves never were 1.000.000 as Mr. Kemp says, but only reached the tenth part, a number of 100.000 and in this number were both blacks slaves and white Slavic slaves. It's also curious that the Spanish Church, took much time in abolishing the slavery, even more than the anglosaxon countries, traditionally more pro slavery. We have to remember than in Spain, during many time, the Church said that the blacks didn't had soul. It's said by Mr. Cabestany that the number of black increased, but also that they could difficulty reach the freedom, as they could not even convert themselves to Christianity, because following the doctrine of the Church they didn't have soul, so they could not be persons as they didn't have souls, an therefore there couldn't be christian "animals", so with many difficulties they could mix with the rest of the population. Now then, if we take the year 1886 as the date in which starts the freedom of blacks, and supposing they were 'diluted' (as Mr. Kemp says) between the spanish white population, the descent will be still evident in our 2001 year. Because any racial anthropologist or geneticist knows, that in a relative short time (115 years), and in more longer periods (according to the 'Laws of Mendel') the descendants of the union of an individual of white race and other of black race clearly present black features, as the black race is genetically dominant ( for this reason there are blacks in the USA that have a 28% of white genes)

The economical situation that existed in Spain during the XVI and XVII centuries didn't need of any use of the slavery, neither there are data that prove the importation, in a so high sum, of a Million of black slaves, it's only refereed in no important data. Be aware that Mr. Kemp is talking of data of a similar grade like the number of slaves imported to the hole U.S.A. The unique mentions made to the blacks in Spain in these centuries are inside the 'knavery literature', and in counted exceptions, and they are refereed to mere individuals, always in pejorative terms and associated to the lowest of the society (this can be seen in the book "El Buscón" of Quevedo, where with sluggishness he relates that a kid was fill of a whore and a black)

Now we'll talk a little bit about the slavery in the colonies.

First of all we must remark that the importation of american indigenous to Spain was forbidden. In 1886 they didn't existed high groups of slaves, black or of any other color in the present Spanish territories. Although not by law, in the practice the slavery in the colonies had been limited to the colonies of the Caribbean (and within these there were more in Sto Domingo and Cuba than in Puerto Rico), being non existent even in the Philippines, in where, in spite of the existence of a plantational system, this worked on the basis of colons and non enslaved indigenous workers . The lack of "soul" of the black slaves was not discussed in the colony, but this didn't impeded that in the Cuba of the XVIII Century were more free blacks that in the one of XIX Century, and in fact in the war of Independence of the U.S.A. free black regiments combated under the flag of Carlos III; and in the period of Carlos IV, and with the intention to protect Florida of the Americans (badly thankful in spite of the money lent by Carlos III for its independence) he offered the freedom to the black slaves that will convert themselves to the catholicism, and when Florida was finally sold to the U.S.A., they were removed from the peninsula of Florida and established as free blacks in Cuba, where several generations after, continue living blacks with english surnames that descend from the escaped from Alabama and the Carolinas...

The subject with the Spanish colonial system until the last period of the Borbones and the unfortunate action of the almost masons of the Society of Friends of the Country, and other illustrated of the Spanish Imperial system, was a stamental system in which the citizens, or the subjects, were not alone in front of the Crown or under the Crown, but were necessarily, part of a social estate equipped with its own rules, laws and judges. The Indian, the free black, or the Spanish never was unprotected front to the power of the crown, but that within their class they had a series of rules that defend it and make it an active part of a greater reality: the Empire. In the period of the Spanish colony, first in Southamerica and after in Cuba the interracial weddings were seriously legislated and controlled, they needed a special permission and they were rare at least until the times of Fernando VII.

In short that non only was no million of black slaves in Spain but furthermore in the Colonies they didn't had many occasions to mix themselves until very late in the XIX Century, in which the religious or stamental taboos were substituted by social and economical taboos, as hard as the previous ones.

It is evident that in this tale of Mr. Kemp with the black slaves of Spain has happened just like to the creators of 'Popeye the Sailor' with the spinach, that added a zero to the amount of iron in grams that this vegetable contains. We don't know who has been the 'illuminated' that has told Mr. Kemp such a foolish, but we should recommend to Mr Kemp's informat, that has such an imaginative mind, that do not waste it creating humbugs and lies about the history of Spain, because he could have a very good future giving ideas to science fiction books.

Continuing with Chapter 22

GYPSIES - SPAIN'S FIVE CENTURIES LONG IMMIGRATION INVASION

As if the Black slaves and Moorish occupation was not enough, Spain's racial character has also been significantly affected by a five century long immigration of Gypsies, dark wandering nomads who had their origin in India itself. The Gypsies spread throughout Europe but concentrated in Spain and Romania, where their numbers are in the millions.

In Spain, the Gypsies occupied large areas to the point where significant parts of what is thought of as Spanish culture - for example the "Flamenco" dance - is in fact Gypsy in origin. In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy, and it can be argued with a fair degree of certainty that the Gypsy element in Spain's current mixed race population is very high - possibly even a majority, given that the Spaniards expelled both Moors and other mixed race elements during that country’s history. The official 1992 estimate of the number of Gypsies in Spain was around 600,000 - like all official figures, it is most likely an underestimation and does not include the vast number of mixed race Spanish/Gypsy people who display the classic "dark" appearance so incorrectly associated with true Spaniards.

It would however be incorrect to class every single Spaniard with this same brush - many Spaniards did not mix with either the Moors, Black slaves or the Gypsies. These people remained strongest in the north of Spain.

Our Replay:

If we want to talk about the gypsies and their culture is necessary to explain the characteristic and history of these nomads.

The first gypsies appeared in Spain in the XV century, among the pilgrim that went to Santiago de Compostela. The first document that reflect their presence is dated in 1425, in Aragon. But in 1499 is dated the first decree of the Catholic Kings against the gypsies. Between the XVI and XVIII centuries they suffered important prosecutions, and was in the Constitution of the 'democratic' Spain in 1977 where they were recognized for first time as citizens by right (with all the rights), equals to any Spaniard. One example of this legal discrimination is that in the regulations of the Guardia Civil (a police corps with militar structure) till 1976 we could find articles that allow this policeman to act randomly with the gypsies, and for example they could obligate the gypsies to proof with bills that the clothes they were wearing were of his property. The gypsies have his own idiom the 'caló'. The whites in this idioms are called 'payos' that means silly / churl. His religion its based in a God creator, a series of devils and the ancestors that keep the morality and the behaviour of their descendants. This is mixed with the Christianity and the devotion to Saints and Virgins. They have their own laws to resolve the problems of the community.

More important is their familiar structures, they are divided in clans / lineages; the union of the families come of agreement, a gypsy girl had assigned a future husband in his childhood, and she gets married with 13 or 14 years old, and had his first child one or two years after getting married. Those who didn't want to follow the clan rules will have many problems, and we'll be expelled from the community. Also if they have relations with a person different from his/her assigned partner it would be consider as a stain in the honour of the fammilly. They live in a patriacharl society, and also very sexist. This has been maintained since 40 or so years ago, when the gypsies went to live to big cites and the customs were relaxed. In all the studies about racism at the question about: What races do you reject? or With which neighbours you won't would like to live? The gypsies appear always in the first position in the opinion polls, in Spain is the collective that more rejection and racial prejudices provoke. Even nowadays, in spite of the moorish and black invasion were are suffering, they maintain his 'privileged' position.

So as you can image, this facts made very difficult the mix between white spanish and gypses. The most important concentration of gypses has been historically located in Andalucia. In this region the gypses sheltered the moriscos that scaped from the prosecutions in other regions, and mixed with them.

Now comes the cultural question, in your book we can read "In Spain, the Gypsies occupied large areas to the point where significant parts of what is thought of as Spanish culture - for example the "Flamenco" dance - is in fact Gypsy in origin. In this way, much of what is regarded as Spanish is actually Gypsy,"

Well the Spanish culture is not only the Flamenco and bull-fighting. In the regions of the north like Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria or Vasque region you could find folklore with celtic links, like the traditional dances with bagpipes, and we don't think that the bagpipe was invented by a gypsy. Also in Aragon, Cataluña or Valencia they had his own dances and culture.

Other thing are the ancients origins of Flamenco, the gypsies do not invented the flamenco, they just gave his own interpretation to pre-existent chants and dances. There are references in the classic chronicles, like the ones of the latin poet Décimo Junio Juvenal, that wrote about the girls of Cadiz, that danced a dance called "cantica Gaditanae” to amuse the intellectuals contemporaneous of Tito and Trajano. Other classic athours like Estrabón, Estacio, Marcial or Plinio talk about this "cantica Gaditanae”and the tartessian 'metric-tunable' laws. With the pass of the centuries there was an evolution and in Andalucia, this ancient chants were mixed with Visigothics chants, the Mozarab chants( jarchya and zéjel) and after the prohibition of muslims chants in the reconquered regions, with the romancer. The gypsies in the XVII century adopted these chants and dances.

This dances and chants were not called 'Flamenco' till 1780. It's also interesting that the word 'Flamenco' is not of gypsie orign, it was used to refer, in a praising sense, to the singer that stood out, in asociation with the excellent singers of Flemish orign that performed in the XVI century in the Spanish chatedrals. It was also used to refer to the 'Flemish Tercios', which songs were known as 'chants of the flemish'

So the gypsies made of this art one of their ways of life, they went to the villages markets with their carts selling their products and amusing the people. They started also to act in roadside inn, taverns, saloons, and 'singer-cafes' so the Flamenco become very popular. So that is the reason of why the Flamenco is identified with the gypsies. During Franquist regime the Flamenco exhibitions, bull fighting, religious events and soccer were boosted and used to entertain the people so they do not think of their conditions of live and organize a revolt, this produced an identification of the flamenco as the most important Spanish cultural manifestation, but as we have said, in Spain there are more things apart from Flamenco.

An important fact that proves that the Flamenco is not Gypsy in origin, is that in Romania, wich is the country with more numbers of Gypsies, the flamenco do not exist, and they have their own 'zingar' dances, very different from Flamenco. Neither it exist in the gypsies communities of Yugoslavia or of the countries of the east of europe.

The official 1992 estimate of the number of Gypsies in Spain was around 600,000, but the population of Spain is of 40.000.000 of habitants, so there are no more of the 1,5%

As we have previously told most of the people do not want to have gypsies as neighbour, due to their ancestral relation with thief and crimes, and their low cultural knowledge (the 70 % of the gypsies are analphabets), so if they are not wanted like neighbours it's difficult to think that they have been accepted as wife / husband or son-in-law through the last five centuries, so their influence to the Spain's racial character has not been very important, and it has had only some importance in the region of Andalucia, where is concentrated half of the gypsy population.

Chapter 23 " The third great racial war: the Moorish invade Europe "

This chapter is curious, in it Mr. Kemps contraditics himself with the theories exposed in chapter 22

"THE WHITE RECONQUEST

During the period of Muslim dominance in Spain, a few regions managed to hold out against the Arabs even at their height. In this way Barcelona was never occupied by the Arabs, as were some northern regions. These regions banded together in a broad anti-Muslim alliance, and began pushing south, slowly but surely driving the Muslims back. This was a painfully slow process and lasted many hundreds of years - more than enough time for a certain amount of mixing between parts of the White population and the Arab rulers to have taken place, helping to create the "dark" Spanish look which can be seen amongst many inhabitants of Spain today. This mixing process in Spain was, as in Greece and Rome, not as complete as in the regions of North Africa or the Middle East, and large numbers of Whites remained intact on the European side of the Mediterranean. However, enough Arabic blood was mixed with the locals in the southernmost parts of Europe that the distinctive dark look, which is today mistakenly called the "Mediterranean" look, is the lasting evidence of the Muslim invasion."

Here our friend says that the 'dark look' of many Spanish and most of the south europeans nations it's not due to our ancestors of mediterranean white race, but for the infiltration of muslim blood. So lets us see it Mr. Kemp, what is your final decision? we are 'dark' owing to your One Million of blacks slaves or owing to the moorish? Well, as you can see this guy talks of Muslims, Arabs and Moorish in equivalents terms, like if they were the same thing.

With these we have tried to give a shallow response to these malicious topics

Agrippa
Sunday, June 11th, 2006, 02:23 PM
In this way a not insignificant amount of Moorish - in reality mixed race Arabic/Black - blood entered a few Spanish families in the southernmost parts of Spain and Portugal.

I just wonder about that, because in fact they were mostly North African indigenous people (Berberid, Southern Mediterranid) and Arabs (Orientalid), with a subsaharan component (Negroid) being very weak. Most of them weren't that mixed race at all, just non-European Europids/Caucasoids with Negroid admixture - degree depending on family. We should not forget that even at this time they were less Negroid influenced (speaking of free Moorish families) than today.