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Ross
Tuesday, December 31st, 2002, 11:50 AM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V13.htm

Another Bronze Age event of racial movement was the gradual disappearance through amalgamation of the Corded people and of the Danubians, and the emergence of an intermediate long-headed form. This latter, which inhabited the immense stretch of territory from Germany and Austria to the Altai Mountains, occupied an intermediate position in the total roster of greater Mediterranean racial variations.

In Austria and Bohemia the high vault and narrow face of both Corded and Danubian strains persisted, but from southern Russia over to the Altai, the vaults were lower and the faces broader. Two variants thus appeared, a western and an eastern. There is evidence that the eastern group, at least, was partly if not prevailingly blond. Both eastern and western divisions may with some confidence be compared to the "Nordic" peoples who appeared historically during the Iron Age.

At the end of the Bronze Age, for a period of two or three centuries, the pall of cremation falls over the racial history of Europe. When the smoke has lifted during the Early Iron Age, we shall see what changes have taken place during this period of darkness.

Ross
Tuesday, December 31st, 2002, 12:03 PM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI7.htm

If the evidence of literary sources makes the early Slavs Nordic in stature and pigmentation, that of ostcology makes them the same in the metrical and morphological sense. In brief, all of the earliest Slavic skeletal material, dating mostly from the eighth to the eleventh centuries, falls, by ,groups if not as individuals, into one or more of the Nordic categories already found to be characteristic of Iron Age Indo-Europeanspeaking peoples.

That from Poland, the eastern half of which was included in the home of the Slavic peoples before their period of dispersion, is not very abundant. Altogether less than 40 male crania may be assembled, and few of these have complete measurements.103 (See Appendix I, col. 46.) These skulls are all predominantly dolichocephalic; the mean cranial index is 73, and not a single round-headed example is included. Among these Polish skulls are some notably long and large specimens Nvith long. narrow faces. The noses of the ,group, as a whole, are fully leptorrhine. On the whole, the ancestral Slavs of Poland were Nordics, within the range of the Indo-European group; these skulls lean to the longer- and larger-headed Corded extreme, and resemble in many respects, the Hannover series, and by extension, the Anglo-Saxons.

...In intermediate parts of Germany, particularly in western Prussia and Pomerania, the Old Slavic skulls are higher vaulted, and closer in this respect to the Polish sub-type.105

Those in Bohemia are for the most part the same as the Wend crania in Germany, except for one series of Matiegka (see Appendix I, col. 48); in this, the vaults are extremely high, nearly reaching early Corded dimensions. This is true to a minor extent of a small group from Slovakia and of individual skulls.106 Thus, in Bohemia, the Slavs included three sub-types, with Hallstatt, Polish, and Keltic analogies.

Some of the Slavic crania from Styria, recalling the Polish prototype, are extremely large and powerful. We have, unfortunately, no data with which to trace the further progress of the southern Slavs into the Dinaric mountain stronghold, and thence into Old Serbia and the Kossovo plain. We rnay, however, study a third Slavic movement, that which penetrated Russia.108

The skulls of these invaders belong to a generalized Nordic form, with a cranial index of 75 to 76, and an intermediate vault height. The Ukrainian skulls from the eighth to the ninth centuries A.D. do not greatly diverge from this general standard, but the early Slavic crania from the Moscow region in Russia, dated from the eleventh to twelfth centuries A.D., are, in fact, almost purely dolichocephalic, with a mean cranial index of 73.5.

Actually, Coon is speaking here about Slavo-Baltic mix. Further to East Slavs retained their Corded Race with BHI 100

On the whole, the Slavic racial type, as exemplified by skeletal series from Poland, Germany, Bohemia, Austria, and Russia, was reasonably uniform.

That's due to Germanic, Keltic and Baltic non-Corded admixture

In view of its geographical location, the Polish group probably represents most nearly the original form, while those who expanded southward and westward absorbed local Keltic and other Indo-European-speaking populations.

True, new materials also evidence that Slavs were of the Corded racial type

The Slavs, like all the other Indo-European-speaking peoples whom we have been able to trace, were originally Nordic, and there is no suggestion in their early remains, in the regions studied, of the numerically predominant brachycephalic racial increments which today are considered typically Slavic.

Up to 50% of Russians are dolicho-mesocephalic, the rest is mainly sub-brachycephalic

Most of the Slavs retained their original dolichocephalic cranial form until at the earliest the thirteenth, and the latest the fifteenth, century. At that time, those who inhabited Russia and central Europe grew progressively brachycephalic, at a rapid but consistent rate. Well-documented series from Bohemia and the Moscow government show how this change progressed from century to century, so that normal means of 73 to 75 rose as high as 83 by the nineteenth. Few Slavs were spared this change, which was parallel to that which affected the southern Germans and other peoples of central and eastern Europe

And where were Northen Germans and Swedes? On the Moon???

Although it took place in the full light of late mediaeval and modern history, no one fully satisfactory explanation has vet been offered.

That's what is called EVOLUTION

Glenlivet
Thursday, May 22nd, 2003, 08:15 PM
Earnest Albert Hooton (PhD at Wisconsin in 1911, studied anthropology as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, hired by Harvard resurrect Physical Anthropology Program) wrote in 1926 about race:

"A race is a great division of mankind, the members of which, though individually varying, are characterized as a group by a certain combination of morphological and metrical features, principally non-adaptive, which has been derived from their common descent."

A people is not the same as a race; race is a purely biological term, and although we can all understand that it has social implications, this doesn't mean that the term itself is only of social value. Language, nationality, culture and belief systems exist irrespective of one's race. But, in the case of race, we have a folk, which is the bonding of the same blood (meaning race), soil (but not always, if a group emigrated and yet kept the old traditions), the same language, culture and customs and history.

A division of races of the always mobile human race is in broad outlines and is resistant to perfect deliniation, newer or older. Race is given to flowing transitions on one hand, and much local deviation in isolated groups, on the other hand. This is at least the case with the draw up of races within the greater racial groups (e.g. Europid and Mongolid). Some mixture and variation is inevitable.

On the whole, as elsewhere, both dogmatism and pure scepticism yield little use - one must realise the relative and merely pedagogical value in many racial groupings.

Racial names should end in -id, thus Nordid or Mediterranid race instead of Nordic or Alpine (which also designate geographical regions).

Nordid is a convention (not meaning that it doesn't exist in reality, but an agreement of which convergent set of features make up the type), like all races, and not all types who look Nordid need to have a clear cut common root (but it is likely that they share more with each other than other types). It’s the same outward appearance that we see, and the idiotype (hereditary formation can differ from one individual to the other).

"The designations "Nordid skull" and "Nordid race" were first employed and carefully described by Fürst in his publications from 1910 and 1912. The basis of the term "Nordid race" is in part its geographical association with the north, in part its inclusion of the three characteristics dolichocephaly, tall stature and fair complexion." [The Nordic skull and the Nordic Race, a Retrospect by KE Schreiner, "Crania Norvegica II" (1946)]

The big-bodied, long-skulled and blondish group in the so called Nordid race, in spite of all polymorphism:

Bertil Lundman considered that it arose from a mixture of southwestern Cro-Magnoid low-skulled and southeastern high-skulled, probably mostly with incoming groups together with the Proto-Indo-Europeans (PIE). It's also noticed on the fairly stongly dropping Height-Length Index (HLI) from Estonia to Jylland and Friesland, evidently irrespective of other mixtures. The low-skulled element is widely predominant, with the exception of all the easternmost groups, so the Nordid race is therefore put in together with the low-skulled Western Europids.

The Europid race can be divided into two general types: a low-skulled Atlantic and a higher-skulled "Caspian" circle. There is no such tangible and compelling example for the Negrid and Amerind racial group.

The base of the Scandinavian Stone Age humans came from Central Germany, from the transition region between the eastern high-skulled and the western low skulls, although they stand closer to the latter. The oldest agriculture culture in Sweden is also thought to have been initiated in Central Germany based on archaeological views (Lindqvist), in other respects much earlier than thought before or nearly 3000 BC. Later, we had increments of Battle-Axe people from southeast, as well as via Skåne (Scania) as through Estonia, SE Finland and Åland to Eastern Sweden.

Type variation within the Nordid race has been so considerable since its origin that one can nowadays hardly exclusively connect every one of all of its modern variations and sub-variations to a particular one of the probable forefathers. The facial form in the Nordid race is not in relation with the extremely non-changeable HLI.

Think of the both very narrow-faced and low-skulled western Swedes and many similar types in England and also Friesland.

Lundman developed the opinions of Scheidt (1924, especially about the head lenghts significance) and Saller regarding the descendants of the Cro-Magnon (meaning "big cliff", represents the earliest modern humans from western Europe).

In 1868 a fossil skull was discovered in the rock shelter of Cro-Magnon in southwestern France, (http://faculty.uca.edu/~benw/biol44...e12b/sld021.htm) and Brünn (or Brno in Mähren/Moravia/Morava is a southeasten Czech city and archaeological site where Upper Palaeolithic skeletal remains were discovered). The Cro-Magnon race in south France was approximately 175 cm (5'9), sometimes more, Breadth-Length Index (BLI) approximately 74; HLI approximately 70-71; broad face and strong chin, etc. The Brünn (sometimes called Aurignician because of scattered finds in France) was approximately 165 cm (5'5); BLI appoximately 70-71; HLI approximately 75; broad face, but sometimes more narrow than the previous one; chin less strongly developed, etc.

Their mutual age is uncertain, but the eastern group perhaps go back the furthest in time and at times it even show Neanderthaloid features. It is considered in general that they both came eastwards, so a closer relation with the Neanderthals would not exist. One might refer in this respect to the highly developed type, almost without interference of more primitive forms, for Cro-Magnon especially on its developed chin, for Brünn on its high crown.

The Breslau anatomist Klaatsch considered the Cro-Magnon to be a crossbreed of Neanderthal and Brünn, his views have met opposition, however, mainly for bio-geographical reasons. The high-skulled Brünn race in Eastern Europe was mainly tied to the steppe regions, so one can hardly doubt that it's identical with the kernel of the high skulls that pushed towards the northwest from Asia and then north of the then Aralo-Caspian ocean, but also to some extent westwards into North Africa. The reach of the Brünn race into the westernmost part of Europe was not sufficiently strong enough to reatain its own type, but assimilated with the native people and Cro-Magnon came about because of this. The HLI of the two parental races is approximately 62 and 75, and for Cro-Magnon approximately 70. Whether there were once "original races" can hardly be affirmed today; at least our present state of knowledge does not justify us in making definite assertions which lack convincing proof. From this it appears that the concept of race does not describe something fixed and unchangeable, but something in a perpetual state of flux, something continually being made over. So one scheme might not be more correct than the other, and we have to simplify all the local variations of the isolated elements within the folk stocks according to the average type.

Race is ever changing, thus a dynamic phenomenon, and strict bio-geographical zones are very simplified. Saller emphasised the facial forms nonvariability and underestimated the head height importance as a more constant racial marker. The last contribution in these questions are from Perret, he develop more finite, completely morphological viewpoints, and have hardly incorporated the other scientists’ pioneering investigations.

From Lundman's scheme of the Nordid from "Jordens Folkstammar" (The Ethnic Groups of the World, 1988):

More or less blond:

Long-skulled, tall stature: Nordic race (better: Nordid race) with several sub-races, among others the Skando-Nordid, the broad-faced Falid and the dark-haired (but light-eyed and light-skinned) North-Atlantid. The Skando-Nordid (long-skulled and low-skulled) can be divided into the Göta (Gothic in English, first coined by Flodström, also called Österdal or Østerdal by Bryn, named after a valley in Eastern Norway, skeletal remains were discovered in the Austrian village Hallstatt, thus sometimes called that as well), Västmanland and Trönder folk stocks (named after regions where the respective types dominate), which are variations of the Nordid race. The Trönder type in Southern Norrland (e.g. Hälsingland) have more of the high-skulled element which is a trait of the eastern group, thus being closer to the East-Nordids (long-skulled and high-skulled).

The Västmanlandid type can be considered to be a Falid variety, so what is left of the true (or what make it specific) Skando-Nordid is the Göta type, which is only numerous and dominant in SW Sweden (Västergötland) and perhaps the neighbouring parts of SE Norway.

Coon's Keltic Nordic is Lundman's North-Atlantid.

The sub-races above are all in the low-skulled Cro-Magnoid or Atlantic racial circle, while the so called East-Nordids (and the Scandinavian Trönder could be put in this group, as it is higher-skulled, HLI of at least 71-73) are thought to have their origin in the Brünn race. But the Swedish Trönder folk stock is in a so called bipolar Nordid-Alpinid stock, not meaning that the Trönder type itself is mixed with a brachycephalic element, as Alpinid, rather that it's a mixed folk stock. Some types of the East-Nordids are the Aistins and/or various Baltid types like Valdai-Ilmen type, which can be divided into Valdai and Ilmen-Dnepr types, although a strong brachycephalisation process occured, and the latest one was in the Middle Ages. The Corded-Ceramic people are generally regarded as a rather important component of the Indo-European core. As Lundman wrote in the chapter "The Racial History of Europe: An Outline" of his "The Races and Peoples of Europe",

"This proto-Indo-European East-Nordid race has now almost disappeared. This is evidently a consequence of the forceful - one might say "explosive"- expansion of the Indo-European peoples. Some living high-skulled Nordid types in Poland, Russia, Finland, and the East Baltic region can be derived from the proto-Indo-European East-Nordids. Thus, not all of the living high-skulled peoples of this part of Europe can be regarded as mixtures of the Scando-Nordid (or East-Mediterranean) and East-Baltid (or Dinarid) races."

Stríbog
Sunday, June 22nd, 2003, 04:56 AM
There has obviously been more work on this topic than I can possibly recount. So, I just want to get an idea what others think.
Coon and Grant say that Nordics are depigmented Meds and not UP at all. More specifically, Coon says that Nordics are the original IEs, a hybrid of Danubians and Battle Axe people, both of whom he says are divergent Meds.
I doubt this theory for a couple reasons. First, it seems unlikely that Nordics evolved their blonde/blue depigmentation and then migrated en masse in a northward direction. If they migrated first and THEN evolved the depigmentation, that would have taken longer than is currently accepted for the presence of Nordics in Europe.
Linguistically, Meds were originally non-IE, as evidenced by remnants of the Basque and Pictish languages. In contrast, Baltic languages are the closest to ancient Indo-European of any language existing (excepting Sanskrit, perhaps). Both Germanic and Slavic languages seem to have come from Baltic languages.
More recently, genetic evidence also indicates that Nordics are much more similar to UPs than they are to any Meds.


So, what I am curious about is:
How close are Nordics to Neo-Danubians? I suspect they are closer than many currently believe. The SNPA description of ND's as 'peripheral nordish' is a political choice reflecting an anti-Eastern bias, not a valid anthropological decision.
Did Nordics and Neo-Danubians originate in the same region of southern Russia and Ukraine? Are either of them tied to the darker Pontids in any way? I tend to be skeptical of this. Where do Battle Axes tie in to Nordics and ND's?
How closely, and by what path, are the robust UP's related to the more gracile Nordics, ND's and BA's?
Why is the Hallstatt site right in the middle of the *ALPS* listed as a hub of the Nordic race? Was some strange migration route taken to get there? If so, why is there not more evidence of Nordics in Austria, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
I will probably think of more questions as this thread progresses, hopefully. I just wanted to introduce some topics for discussion.

cosmocreator
Sunday, June 22nd, 2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Fionn mac Cumhaill

Linguistically, Meds were originally non-IE, as evidenced by remnants of the Basque and Pictish languages.

And also Hebrew, Arabic, Pheoncian, Egyptian -- all non-IE Med as well.

Vojvoda
Sunday, June 22nd, 2003, 05:06 PM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V7.htm

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV2.htm

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV8.htm

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IV9.htm

Corded is depigmented Pontid

Why do you think that Meds were not originally Indo-European speakers? I thought UPs were not IE speakers.

Stríbog
Sunday, June 22nd, 2003, 05:42 PM
Basque and Pictish have been shown to be non-IE. Indo-European languages were brought relatively late to the western Mediterranean by invading tribes from the East.
It seems possible or probable that western UPs spoke non-IE languages, but Baltic types spoke a language that was the closest to old IE of any in Europe.
I'm tired of reading the same old stuff from SNPA, it's not terribly accurate. Coon is quite biased, and ignorant of Eastern Europe. His claim that Nordids are depigmented Meds has been disproven by modern genetics. I was hoping for fresh perspectives... ;)

torrent
Sunday, June 22nd, 2003, 08:52 PM
Corded and Danubian type


What puzzles me is on what criteria one distinguishes so immediately
a Corded from a Danubian type, since the Danubian type who some
reckons as Nordic(Reche), while others rank it as Proto-Mediterrenean
(Vallois, et.al.), interesting would also be the validation of the
Danubian in relation to the Corded type.
How would one be expected to seperate them properly, since deviation
diagrams of several series of Corded and Central European LBK series
allow for biological continuity, hence in the course of centuries
some Danubians evolved into the Corded Ware type; not all Danubians
were small build, some like the Genay type attained an average of
175cm and the Corded is as a rule tall.
The Danubians were medium to high-vaulted and this characteristic is
repeated in the Corded, albeit, that Kossinna very interestingly,
describes them as flat-topped and the raised vault would be the
consequence of mingling with restants of Danubians and in a later
phase with the Bell Beaker folk, another effect are the nevertheless
exceptional
shorthening of the cranium.
Both Danubians and Corded, and you may count in the Aunjetitzer
Nordics, have a rounded ellipsoid head form, with flattened
parientals, the so-called "Kokonform".The main difference lay in the
head dimensions, the Corded is much more longer-headed, but the
Danubian tends to narrower head breadth.
The Danubian has a very narrow face, but the Corded is higher; both,
however, are mesorhine.
One is to believe that the Corded perpetuals the incipient Nordic
strain in the Danubian LBK- population, while the smaller version
mayhave gone through a processus of alpinisation to a virtual high-
headed, infantilized but blondish Gorid type which permeates part of
the Slavonic population in Central and East Europe in the Alpine and
Carpathian mountain range and thus as far as deep into Massif
Central of France!
Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic and
Proto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early
Neolithic LBK folk, may vouch for the "Altindogermanisch" nature of
the Danubians, the more since the area occupied by them show in
terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and
are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE
languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has
been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.
Literature:

Lothar Killian, De l'origine des Indo-Européens, Paris, 2OOO.
John V. Day, Indo-European Origins: The Anthropological Evidence,
Washington D.C., 2001.
Gustaf Kossinna, Ursprung und verbreitung der Germanen in vor -und
fruehgeschichtlicher Zeit, Leipzig, 1936.
FG

as we can see both corded and danubeans were high vault. the central, halstat, type is low vault. Coon just underestimates the UP contibution to his nordic.
coons east baltic is high vault coon considers it to be a mixture of danubean (mediterranean) and mongoloid before a depigmentation took place.
in fact, Coon is just sometimes diplomatic in his expressions. he sees danubeans as the gracilizing agent in the upper paleolithic gene pool. i definitely dislike this word gracilization and sometimes asked people to define gracilization, but let me simply explain it is the decrease in the bony structure and seems to be narrowing of the face. sometimes a thin face is considered to be gracile than a fleshy face, that is definitely untrue. we cannot talk abut gracilization unless it is proven that there is bony gracilization. this is a bit sensitive situation, for sometimes the difference between a dinaric and an arabid is just the fleshy part of the face.
Coons nordic is UP gracilized (altered, as i said i dislike this word GRACILIZATION) by mediterranean. in this sense troender is very central it lies between Halstat and west baltic and perhaps east baltic .(HL)
coons mediterraneans, the danubeans, are ancient mediterranean mixture. it has nothing to do with the %2 mediterranean mixture in germany.
because gracilization or brachycephalization we talk about can only take place by natural selection, for we have not been able to prove that any aquired feature is coded genetically to pass the offspring. narrower faces than would have to be able to produce more offsprings on the basis of ,say ,sexaul selection, who cares about a narrower face in a world of broad faces. this is as meaningfull if we consider the chinese point of view about those northern tribes. or once there was a massacre for some people were broader faced some people were narrower faced.

Vojvoda
Tuesday, June 24th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Fionn mac Cumhaill
Why is the Hallstatt site right in the middle of the *ALPS* listed as a hub of the Nordic race? Was some strange migration route taken to get there? If so, why is there not more evidence of Nordics in Austria, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
I will probably think of more questions as this thread progresses, hopefully. I just wanted to introduce some topics for discussion.

Fionn, this is interesting,

"The Hallstatt culture spread in many directions, including the southeast, where it penetrated Bosnia, and eventually Albania. It moved slowly northward, until it reached the Scandinavian and North German area, bringing iron to these regions relatively late; while to the southwest, it crossed France and penetrated Catalonia. To the immediate south, it likewise spread over the Alps into Italy, where the invading Illyrians split into a number of local tribal groups, including the Veneti. It would be foolish to claim that every site with Hallstatt cultural remains carries the bones or ashes of Illyrian speakers. This may only with certainty be asserted for the central area, and for the regions immediately adjacent, while in the west it is fairly certain that some of the peoples in a Hallstatt level of culture were actually Kelts. "

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm

Azdaja
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 01:22 AM
Excellent topic.

I also doubt the theory about Nordics being med-derived. After reading TRoE I rather stupidly believed Coon's theory without really checking out any other points of view.
It would be interesting to read about some of the tests you mention, Fionn. Do you have any links or sources you could post?

Coon does not always state his theories plainly, but based on certain 'hints' he gives I feel that he was of the opinion that the original Danubians were a 'northern' (relatively-speaking) strain of the 'Med Proper' group that entered Europe during the Mesolithic, and the "Battle Axe" type was a northern strain of the "Megalithic Med" group.
(Note: I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. I'm only interpreting what I believe Coon's views to be on the topic).

As far as a close tie between Nordics and NDs goes, I think it would depend on what exactly the origins of the Nordic type are. If Coon is correct then obviously the Nordic and ND types are closely related. One could even say that both are Danubian derivatives: Nordic = Danubian + BA and Neo-Danubian = Danubian + Ladogan.
However if the Nordic is UP-derived, then I would say that the NDs and Nordics are not very closely related at all (at least when compared to the relationship between Nordics and Brunns).

BTW: Very nice post, Asparukh! You seem to know a lot about this very interesting topic.

Stríbog
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 01:42 AM
while in the west it is fairly certain that some of the peoples in a Hallstatt level of culture were actually Kelts

I have been inclined towards believing this for some time. The Hallstatt and La Tene sites are in the vortex of Celtic cultural development. I find it odd that if Nordics emerged in the east (southern Russia), that they should migrate far to the west before moving northward.

William the Conqueror
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 06:49 PM
What are your opinions on the Nordic Tarim mummies from 2000-1000BCE? The evidence would suggets that Hallstatts resided in both Central Asia and the Alpine region of Europe simultaneously before their migrations into Scandanavia; and yet what place can be posited as the original geographical nucleus of the type (for surely there was one)?
http://www.crystalinks.com/mummychina.jpg

What about Roman descriptions of Celts (part. the British Celts - erf. Caesar's Conquest of Gaul) as 'tall and blond', where now the 'Keltic Nordic' subtype is somewhat shorter and more brunet(te)?

Allenson
Wednesday, June 25th, 2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by William the Conqueror
What are your opinions on the Nordic Tarim mummies from 2000-1000BCE? The evidence would suggets that Hallstatts resided in both Central Asia and the Alpine region of Europe simultaneously before their migrations into Scandanavia; and yet what place can be posited as the original geographical nucleus of the type (for surely there was one)?


I tend to think that the Tarim mummies are of Corded derivation and are probably the remains of the Tocharian speakers who lived in central Asia. This thought of mine is based solely on geography though and has no root in physical type. It would be really interesting to see these mummies up close and perhaps be able to get a good look at what remains of their phenotypes.

As for the other notions being discussed in this thread; I too can't help but believe that the western Nordics are indeed largely derived from the post-glacial UP populations of NW Europe and hence from the Cro-Magnon folk....with indeed some accretions of Corded blood from the east.

All of this is very difficult to determine and quite speculative on any of our parts as none of us (that I know of) actually is 'out there' examining skulls from 40,000 years ago to the present. All we can rely on is old phys-anth books and the folks that we see with our own eyes today.

William the Conqueror
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 05:52 PM
That is a plausible theory when examining it from a purely geographical perspective, but metrically, the Tarim mummies are perfect Nordics - and they are far too low-vaulted to be racially Corded.

Allenson
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by William the Conqueror
That is a plausible theory when examining it from a purely geographical perspective, but metrically, the Tarim mummies are perfect Nordics - and they are far too low-vaulted to be racially Corded.

Right, hence my caveat. It's interesting that you say they are metrically Nordic...in the western Nordic sense with lower vault heights. Do you know if there have been published studies on their craniometrics and if so, where?

I didn't think "they" did that sort of thing anymore. :)

cheers

torrent
Thursday, June 26th, 2003, 08:20 PM
the thocarians are told to be read haired which is a property of the upper paleolitihic low vault people. so i think most thocarians were UP and they do not look corded-iranoafgan looking from reconstructions. and from Coon we see that shythians were low vault so clearly upper paleolithic nordics not even high vaulted west baltic or troender nordic. thocarians are perhaps scythians i do not agree that they are even celtic they are clearly indogermanic.
in fact the nordic looking mummies are a minority among takhlamakan mummies most of the rest are a blend of mongoloid and eastern european race. and i am in love with this eastern european race classification they were so eastern of the europe
that takhlamakan is even east of central asia.
i do not want to be hurting my greek brothers or serbian brothers but byzance and serbia were almost conquerred at the same time a hundred years time interval in fact and from what i see the serbs and greeks almost claim that turks were far more crowded than they were. turks were either very fast in assimilating (who)or came in masses. and in no record turks of those days are described as any other people than kumanid (not kumid) or pseudoarmenid.
turkish dinaricization has nothing to do with dinarics or armenids for those days armenians and turks were seperate things after istanbul was conquerred mehmet ll allowed armenians to migrate to istanbul where they were never allowed to migrate and fall of istanbul has nothing to do with jews in fact.
i do not want to load this thread much but what they say an obscure eastern european race is the corded that is why futhark looking alphabeth was used around yenisay and in mongolia. turks are a blend of iranoafgan and mongoloid and i am afraid UP originally otherwise it is not so easy to explain the broad faces.
here i do not agree with Coon for coon says corded spoke altaic. no, altaic is a blend of corded and some native asiatic language.
perhaps the language of the corded was really agglutinative and that is the agglutinative language we seek to incorporate in the indoeuropean for i have never been to see a proper explanation for the finnougric mixture in indoeuropean. even finnougric may be taken in this perspective, for perhaps the first finnougric was spoken by depigmented mongoloids the ladogans, for i when i see dark ladogan i cannot otherwise classify as mongolid than anything.

BTW: Very nice post, Asparukh! You seem to know a lot about this very interesting topic
that is very kind of you. i am away from having alot of knowledge my most knowledge is derived from the various contributors of these lists whom in fact i am gratefull to. that pasted article is taken from Franz the chief of an anthropology club(and i am a loyal follower of him). HL is Hans.
this post of mine is getting totally out of control (may be i was so moved after having been treated good, but i want to express my gratitude to Volks too and i want to give credit to nordhammer because my fist anthropology knowledge is acquired by reading his posts under the name of STB. i would like to thank, obscessively, many other contibutors but i will stop now.
regards

Von Braun
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by cosmocreator
And also Hebrew, Arabic, Pheoncian, Egyptian -- all non-IE Med as well.

So anyone who lived or lives in close promixity to the Meditteranean Sea was/is a "Med" to you? :rolleyes:

Azdaja
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 02:27 AM
No, Cosmo is right. The racial types associated with those cultures/people are mainly Med.

William the Conqueror
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by asparukh
so i think most thocarians were UP

I disagree - their bodies are far too gracile, and their heads far too dolichocephalic for one to seriously consider them UP. UP red-heads tend to display a brownish-red shade known as 'auburn', rather than 'orange'. A red-haired Hallstatt Nordic:-

http://tv.dreamworksfansite.com/bandofbrothers/images/Damian_Lewis_Two.jpg

http://www.redandproud.com/images/DamianLewis2.jpg

Compare with a blond-haired Hallstatt (Max von Sydow):-

http://www.woody-allen.de/SYDOW.JPG

Scáthach
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 06:36 PM
that red head looks almost like jimmy stewart! who is he,may i ask?

William the Conqueror
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 06:56 PM
Exactly, and Jimmy Stewart is a Hallstatt himself. That is one of the actors from Band of Brothers; he is English, and his name is Damian Lewis.

torrent
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 07:53 PM
I disagree - their bodies are far too gracile, and their heads far too dolichocephalic for one to seriously consider them UP. UP red-heads tend to display a brownish-red shade known as 'auburn', rather than 'orange'. A red-haired Hallstatt Nordic:-
i vehemently disagree. the halstat central type is a reduced upper paleolithic (phalian is a nonreduced UP). the reducing agent is either danubean or corded or both.
for the lowering of vault from the that of corded, halstats definitely need to have stayed in europe to mix with the upper paleolitihcs.
i do not disagree that thocarians may be Halstats but still if they are halstats the destination is from continental europe.
we may assume that there used to be upper paleolithics in parts of asia but his would, in the end, be contradicting that mongoloids and Upper paleolitihcs have seperated 35ooo years because the UPs and mongoloids living in the central asia would have mixed and would be more or less continuous (perhaps it is as we can see from the pictures LG send us) which would mean that the real seperation (hmm isolation is important for formaton of subraces)
and isolation could only have occurred after the corded or the neolithic expansion more or less divided eastern and western Upper paleolithics to form the phalians, the easteren ones as mongoloids (with various danubean mixture and polynesian mixture please compare koreans and chinese in gereneral appereance).
if ideal nordic was a pure pontic and corded mixture there is no other way than being high vault, that is west baltic, northpontic (a broader faced pontic darker than west baltic) types which you can find in baltic region and russia.
if ever thocarians were halstats (that is clearly posssible) still their homeland is continental europe and must be grouped with the UPs.

Allenson
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 07:58 PM
I just checked out the book "The Tarim Mummies" from my local college library. It was written by J. P. Mallory and Victor Mair. There is a chapter called 'Skulls, Genes and Knights with Long Swords'....so I'm hoping that there will be some indication as to the physical type of the Tarim Mummies. In my brief perusal of this chapter, there is a section on craniometry....very surprising to see in a book published in the year 2000....

cheers

Von Braun
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Azdaja
No, Cosmo is right. The racial types associated with those cultures/people are mainly Med.

Are you saying that Joseph Goebbels was close to being arabic or jewish?

torrent
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 08:10 PM
just checked out the book "The Tarim Mummies" from my local college library. It was written by J. P. Mallory and Victor Mair. There is a chapter called 'Skulls, Genes and Knights with Long Swords'....so I'm hoping that there will be some indication as to the physical type of the Tarim Mummies. In my brief perusal of this chapter, there is a section on craniometry....very surprising to see in a book published in the year 2000....
that is great, we would be gratefull if you would inform us about the craniometry of the mummies and perhaps after you have read it we may ask you a few questions if you would not mind.
best regards

Allenson
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by asparukh
that is great, we would be gratefull if you would inform us about the craniometry of the mummies and perhaps after you have read it we may ask you a few questions if you would not mind.
best regards


I'd be more than happy to pass along what anthropological info I can discern from this book. And of course, all questions are welcome. I'll get started reading it tonight. :)

William the Conqueror
Friday, June 27th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by asparukh
i vehemently disagree. the halstat central type is a reduced upper paleolithic

I never said that the Tocharians evolved in Central Asia. But I cannot see how the most famous of them (i.e., the most well-preserved) can be considered UP; perhaps proto-Tronder/Saxon, but not preserved UP.

Also, how can Faelish be a non-reduced UP - that would make it a UP surely! Hallstatts must have pushed upward through Europe, making Borrebys a fringe type (in N Germany, Denmark, and Norway-Sweden), creating a stabilized blend of the two types in the 'Faelian' type found in Northern Germany in great numbers. This helps to explain the disappearance of Brunn from the continent (who must have numbered less than Borrebys), namely, that they were absorbed by migratory Hallstatts, creating the Anglo-Saxon type.

He http://www.gruner.com/flight/appendix/aviators/lindbergh.jpg moves northward and meets the older, http://www.spikemagazine.com/reviews/fearandloathinginamerica.jpg the blending of said types resulting in the elongated but 'husky' http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/06.07/photos/13-lithgow.jpg

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2003, 02:47 PM
Kossinna (Ursprung und Verbreitung der Germanen in vor -und
fruehgeschichtlicher Zeit, 1936) connects the Nordic races to three
distinct UP races: Cro Magnon, Combe Capelle and Chancelade, all
contributed in different degrees and solutions to the formation of the
Nordic race and its subtypes.

From Cro magnon the Nordic inherited its dolichoid strongly jutting
dome-like ending skull shape, the prolific chin and beakyness of the
nose, Combe Capelle allies with the Nordic in its receding forehead
and manifest browridges as well the long face, Chancelade's ellipsoid
rounded skull emerges among the Corded Ware type, though Montandon in
his in 1943 published L'Homme préhistorique et les préhumains
recalls that the Cromagnids had a rather similar skull form and that the
pentagonoid contour of the Old Man of Cro Magnon was more exception
than the rule; the medium height of the skull and hipsicephaly of
Combe Capelle and Chancelade will find its analogy in the Corded type,
however,both the Elb-Saale group in Thueringen as in Bohemia and the
Oder group in Central Schlesia are flat-topped to moderately high,put
down to either the shortheads of the Bell beaker population or to the
Danubians.

In any event, about the fourth to third millenium BC three nordiform
skull types are to be found amoung the Northeuropean population:

1. a dolichoid with dome-like backhead, low or medium long face with
equal dualistic measurements for the upper facial parts, steep
forehead, with beaky nose, angular slant-like orbits, but unlike Cro
Magnon the browridges are strong(finds: Mysinge,Öland, Swedish
megalithic burials, Hunnebo in West Sweden).

2. a dolichoid type with receding forehead and marked browridges,
long-faced but with roundish backhead(finds: Visby, Gotland).

3. the Avigny type: a dolichoid with long face and rounded backhead,
but unlike the Capellids with steep forehead, lacking browridges(finds: Denmark, North France).

The typical Nordic long-headed skull became in pre-war literature
inDenmark associated with the Cro Magnon race on behave of the
flattened skull top that never quite reach the same primitive plane
condition as in the Upper Paleolithic precedent; further the
stricture of the shull shape towards the lower rear leading to a dome-
like jutting appendage, the beakyness of the nose as well finally the
alveolar prognathy(while present in the Old Man of Cro Magnon, in
general the Cromagnids were orthognatious!) applied for such
relationship, but the nearly fleeding forehead behind well-developed
browridges fail to sustain that analogy in every aspect, the malars
don't protrude but retract, which again is very unlike Cro Magnon,
the angularity of the chin sympathisizes nevertheless with its
pointive prominence in Cro Magnon, the narrow and medium long face
can't be ascribed properly neither to a Combe Capelle-Chancelade
(except in their mutual higher face) nor to the definetely
euryprosopic Cro Magnon(FI 83!), the narrow bizygomatic breadth
allows a Predmost element moulded into the Nordic race, albeit that
Predmost was mesoprosopic, euryene to mesene, while his face width
was broad down to narrow, coalescing with the Nordic average of 135mm.
The forehead is as a rule broad, smooth and sideways slightly bowed;
in combination with the tapering backhead a Keilform is attained.

For Central Germany, South Germany and Austria the ellipsoid form is
more common and in later eras adhered by the Corded Ware people, both
types are by Kossinna juxtapositioned against the Mediterrenean(Ibero-
Insular?) race which skull is ovoid with narrow forehead and
broadened backhead.

Viewed from behind the Nordic skull appears "fünfeckig", Predmost and
Mladec assumed a similar proclivity.

The North German skulls adhere to the Denmark finds but with reduced
dimensions, in Northeast Germany the vault height is higher, likewise
the orbits and face and nose are broader than usual in the Nordic.

The Ostdorfer Seeinsel type was in a previous entry described.

The Northwestern Germanic or megalithic type are at best typified by
the 14 measurable remaining skulls from a <<Steinkammergrab>> in
Warburg, Brandenburg.

The skulls are partially long or medium long, notably smaller
compared to the Northern and Northeastern types, but as the former
low vaulted; the backhead doesn't profusely juts out, the
<<Kegelform>> is still sustained, though; only three individuals show
a rounding-off.

The Keilform embraces three slightly deviating skull forms:

1. seven indivuals with a steep forehead and the Kegelform for the
backhead.
2. four have receding foreheads with Kegelform.
3. The last three have a steep uprising forehead with rounded
backhead.

Narrow and medium long faces are in the majority, outwitting the mere
two individuals with broadish faces.

H.F.K. Günther follows in Beknopte Rassenkunde der Germaansche Volken
(Amsterdam,1942) Otto Reche's hypothesis that the Nordic race started
from the Chancelade-linked form and refers to the finds at the
Pritzerber Lake in Brandenburg, Oberehausen in the Rhineland and near
Hochlarmarck in Recklinghausen. In this concept Central and Northwest
Germany becomes the hearthland of the Nordic race; this stands
correct, except that the contribution by the high-skulled and
dwarfish Chancelade should perhaps be downweighed insofar that its
qualities goes in the direction of refining the pre-Nordic types and
administer the higher placed face, while in other characteristics
these early Nordics are stronger related to Predmost, which modern
representative is undoubtedly the Continental Paleo-Atlantid race
(though limbs proportion differ!).

A final note, Volksdeutsche, the sharp boundary between an "Atlantid" and Caspian" zone must have occured not before the Bronze Age onward; in the Parisian Basin during the Seine-Oise-Marne culture, the mean LHI was 75, thus on the verge of hipsicephaly.

With exception of the Chancelade people in the Magdalénian period, high-headeness was seldom the case in Europe; the Bruenn female should be counted out, since we deal with a single case and within a population a whole range of indices may exist side by side while the influence of admixture would be dismissed, hence while the mean for Australian Aboroginals is indeed low, few individual measurements reveal ortho -and hypsicephaly and let's face the facts, the samples from Bruenn are really scant and not quite foreshadowing the racial condition of eastern and central Europe.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2003, 04:17 PM
Hello Frans, your knowledge (albeit a bit too advanced) is very much appreciated, as always. So could you tell me more about the racial condition (mainly the Nordids) of Eastern Europe? I'm mostly interested in Russia. Not all are very high-skulled, right? I think about the types which can be found in the southern Eurasian steppe belt. Please add some sentences about the so called Aisto (old)-Nordid as well. Where do you draw the line between the Danubians and Cordeds?

Could we say that the East-Nordids have less or none of the Cro-Magnid (the blonder Falid in mostly western Germany and Netherlands, and the darker Tydal/Old Atlantics and their Berid (many are Alpinised in N Spain and S France) brethren in all of Western Europe (extending from remnants in Norway and Sweden to the British Isles, Belgium, France and Spain).

How do you explain the facial similarities of the Pontid (although the type should be high-skulled, but not as much as Armenoids?, HLI ~ 78) and the North-Atlantid type? Is the resemblance coincidental?

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, July 2nd, 2003, 04:39 PM
Hello there, old pal, I will for the moment a partial answer, because as i reminded everyone lately I am experiencing with some nuisances by health problems.

I wrote at New POES on the issue of Corded and Danubians the following threatise:

What puzzles me is on what criteria one distinguishes so immediately
a Corded from a Danubian type, since the Danubian type who some
reckons as Nordic(Reche), while others rank it as Proto-Mediterrenean
(Vallois, et.al.), interesting would also be the validation of the
Danubian in relation to the Corded type.

How would one be expected to seperate them properly, since deviation
diagrams of several series of Corded and Central European LBK series
allow for biological continuity, hence in the course of centuries
some Danubians evolved into the Corded Ware type; not all Danubians
were small build, some like the Genay type attained an average of
175cm and the Corded is as a rule tall.

The Danubians were medium to high-vaulted and this characteristic is
repeated in the Corded, albeit, that Kossinna very interestingly,
describes them as flat-topped and the raised vault would be the
consequence of mingling with restants of Danubians and in a later
phase with the Bell Beaker folk, another effect are the nevertheless
exceptional shorthening of the cranium.

Both Danubians and Corded, and you may count in the Aunjetitzer
Nordics, have a rounded ellipsoid head form, with flattened
parientals, the so-called "Kokonform".The main difference lay in the
head dimensions, the Corded is much more longer-headed, but the
Danubian tends to narrower head breadth.

The Danubian has a very narrow face, but the Corded is higher; both,
however, are mesorhine.

One is to believe that the Corded perpetuals the incipient Nordic
strain in the Danubian LBK- population, while the smaller version
mayhave gone through a processus of alpinisation to a virtual high-
headed, infantilized but blondish Gorid type which permeates part of
the Slavonic population in Central and East Europe in the Alpine and
Carpathian mountain range and thus as far as deep into Massif
Central of France!

Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic and
Proto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early
Neolithic LBK folk, may vouch for the "Altindogermanisch" nature of
the Danubians, the more since the area occupied by them show in
terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and
are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE
languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has
been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.

In studying the neolithic populations in the Elbe-Saale, A.Raache
denies on the grounds of osteological comparisons that the Danubian
make-up was distinctively gracile and thus foreign to the mesolithic
stocks, but undoubtly Nordic, despite heterogentity.

Von Eickstedt mentions a Alpo-Cromagnoid form as second important
pilar of the Danubians.

If the Corded descend or have been mixed with the later, it explains
the brachycephaly of the Baltic race in Eastern Europe, since the
cromagnoids are by Schliz and Schuchardt acknowledged as conveying
the strain of broadheadedness over to new, either succeeding types or
in blends, as well the uncannyly un-Nordic broad nose of the Corded
and the shorter snub-noses of some Baltics.

Lothar Killian in his turn that the Corded Folk contained low-orbit
Phalian types, while Rach stresses the anthropological concordance
between different archaeological groups, like Trichterbecherkultur
(TRB) and Corded-Danubians.

Examinating the population of Walternienberg-Bernburg(TRB) and the
Corded similarities were thrown into light which vouch for
connections with the Danubians in terms of sifnificantly reciprocal
indices.

Killian dismisses in a further note Lundman's claim of an East Nordic
subrace, because with exception of the high-headedness, which as I
previously in an article asserted was not the rule, TRB and Corded
people are genuinely alike, and Corded merit to be both culturally
and in physical aspects as so-to-speak standard-bearer of the TRB-
Indo-european wave over Europe.

And on the plausible or refuted link between Kurgan People and Corded types, I made these statements:

The movements of the Aisto-Nordics of the Corded Ware
culture must have originated from northern Central
Europe, while it makes it appearance much later in
Northeastern Europe, where they would have undergo
some alteration due to contacts with Ladogan-like
groups, attaining lower and less profiled faces(Bunak:
"Es ist danach anzunehmen, dass der ursprunglche
schnurkeramische Typus der Fatjanovo-Gruppen durch
osteuropaeische Typen modifiziert wurde").

Principal component analysis of 39 series of the early
Bronze Age and Neolithic puts the CW of Central
Germany, Poland and Czechoslowakia together in one
cluster opposite to the Yamna series(=Kurgan culture),
which sufficiently denies an alledged origin of Kurgan
signature on the CW, btw, CW have high and narrow
crania and a narrow face, on the other hand, the Yamna
group sets apart by low and broad crania and a
broadish face.

In fact, CW shows continuity with the series corresponding with the Early Neolithic of Central Europe , especially east German and Czech CW are
particularly close to LBK.

Though, deviation diagrams putting CW in relation to LBK and Yamna
suggest that CW doesn't fit well between those two and with exeption
of orbital height and orbital index, the Kurgan contribution to CW is
quite rightly contested.

Corded Ware is divided in an earlier A-horizon and later B-horizon,
whereby A deviates more strikingly from Yamna for its higher, narrower
and longer crania, but geographically closer to the Kurgans located CW
show some similarities, the same parallel have to be drawn from a
comparison between Yamna and Catacomb Culture series with later
Central German CW, which hints on Kurganisation after the beginning of
CW and by entering groups from the East.

Other correlations with the Baalberg-complex in Central Germany and
Bohemia, next to the Baden complex in the Carpathian Basin insist,
despite Kurgan-influence(steppe groups entered Central europe as far
as Eastern Hungary), on cranial and metric continuity with local
predecessors, though facial flatness and skeletical robusticity crop
up in the Baden series, nevertheless the eastern series give evidence
that their roots must lie in the local population before any Kurgan
invasion can be attested, since they resemble more the Central
European Roessen complex and even LBK:

CRANIAL BREADTH:

Kurgan Baalberg LBK-Roessen
141,4 137,1 136,5

BIZYGOMATIC BREADTH:

Kurgan Baalberg LBK-Roessen
137,3 126,4 129,2

Anyway, the effect of Kurganisation decreases from East to West.

The facial similarities between Pontids and North Atlantids may rely in the mode of convergence, however Pontids should be likelier be associated with Atlanto-Mediterrenids, since this race was introduced to Western Europe by seafaring Cardial groups from the Eastern Mediterrean basin about 6000BC, although their progress inland on the Continent to the north was slow-moving and rather a case of acculturation by local mesolithic elements.

In North France "they" met the justly incoming finer-build, relatively tall and more Nordoid and rather lower vaulted(compared to their eastern counterparts) Danubians; according to Vallois, the North Atlantid race consitutes an important element in this region, perhaps in the Black Sea region a similar event produced the Pontid race, albeit that the Danubians and the Nordic elements in the Starcevo culture, which precedes Linear Pottery, ought to be considered "Caspian" in characteristics.

Unregistered
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 03:28 PM
http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol2no3/jvd-europeans.html

In Quest of Our Linguistic Ancestors
The Elusive Origins of the Indo-Europeans

John V. Day

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Proto-Indo-Europeans, they say, were the herdsmen who changed the world. But these days even the majority of well-educated people in the West have never even heard of them. They might tell you that the Aryans, who were Proto-Indo-Europeans under another name, had some connection with Adolf Hitler, but this information stretches their knowledge to the limit. This widespread ignorance among Westerners is cause for great shame, but it should be expected. For decades, educators in schools and universities have neglected Proto-Indo-Europeans. And although several scholars in recent years have written general books about them, readers seldom come across these works in bookshops.1 Non-readers never have the chance to learn about Proto-Indo-Europeans, either. It appears that neither the TV companies nor Hollywood have made a single documentary or movie on the subject. And yet, as the history of the world turned out, these Proto-Indo-Europeans may have been the most important people who ever lived.

Now, this is not Erich von Däniken's “Chariots of the Gods” or some other fanciful idea dreamed up by the unhinged or those wanting to sell mountains of books for a quick buck, although it must be admitted that over the years one or two misguided souls have tried to locate Proto-Indo-Europeans in such unlikely places as Tibet, the Sahara, Antarctica, and outer space. The real story of the Proto-Indo-Europeans has been pieced together from meticulous work by brilliant linguists, mythologists, archaeologists, and anthropologists over the last two hundred years.

Scholarship understands a lot about Proto-Indo-Europeans, and yet they are still the most elusive of peoples. For one thing, nobody can pin down precisely where they lived—or even precisely when they lived, although it must have been at least four or five thousand years ago. Nobody knows what they called themselves or what their neighbors called them. "Proto-Indo-Europeans" is our modern term. None of the Proto-Indo-Europeans' literate neighbors recorded what they looked like or which customs they practiced. And we have no documents, not even a single word, written by the Proto-Indo-Europeans themselves. In all probability, they had no writing.

Language of the Proto-Indo-Europeans
Yet scholars have identified the Proto-Indo-Europeans mainly by their spoken language. This language may not have been written down, but as groups of Proto-Indo-Europeans spread further afield in antiquity and lost contact with each other, so their original language diversified into daughter languages, and linguists can reconstruct a good deal of Proto-Indo-European from these daughter languages that “were” preserved in texts.

Consider, for example, some words in ancient languages that mean mother.2 The word mother in ancient Greek was meter, in Latin it was mater, and in Sanskrit, a language spoken in northern India over 3,000 years ago, it was matar. All these words correspond so well that linguists can reconstruct from them the original Proto-Indo-European form for mother as mater. (The modern English word mother, incidentally, derives from Proto-Indo-European via another route altogether, from its Germanic branch in ancient northern Europe.) Similarly, linguists can compare Greek nephos, Latin nebula and Sanskrit nabhas—all words meaning mist, fog or cloud—to obtain the Proto-Indo-European form for cloud. These words indicate only that Proto-Indo-European people recognized their mothers and experienced cloudy days. But linguists can go much further. Among the hundreds of Proto-Indo-European words that have been reconstructed are the numbers one to ten; the other family members of father, brother and sister; the body parts of eye, ear, nose and mouth; such trees as ash, birch, pine and willow; and such domestic animals as cow, sheep, goat and pig. Proto-Indo-European vocabulary was so precise, linguists tell us, that it even distinguished between words for breaking wind audibly and inaudibly.3

Furthermore, the parts of grammar that survive in Proto-Indo-European's daughter languages closely resemble one another. Pupils who study Latin often begin by learning amo, amas, amat ─ I love, you love, he loves. These verb endings of -o, -as, and -at find parallels in other languages, such as the comparable verb endings in modern German of -e, -st, and -t.

Linguists use a similar comparative method to determine that Proto-Indo-Europeans sorted nouns by gender (masculine, feminine, or neuter) and number (singular, plural, or dual [for two of a kind]). Each noun, moreover, had eight cases, depending on its purpose in a sentence, and each one had a different ending. Thus every Proto-Indo-European who opened his mouth to speak a few words realized that a noun like mother or cloud had 72 possible endings to choose from. Proto-Indo-Europeans may not have used writing, which was being invented by their contemporaries in the highly centralized economies of Egypt and Mesopotamia to count goods and register taxes, but they evidently did not suffer from low IQs.

The daughter languages of Proto-Indo-European can be grouped into such branches as Celtic, Greek, and Germanic, so that in the modern world English, Dutch, and German languages, for example, all belong in the Germanic branch. We know from ancient written texts that Indo-European languages—the languages that the original Proto-Indo-European developed into—have for thousands of years covered much of Europe and Asia.

During this period, Celtic languages were spoken across vast regions from central Europe to Iberia. Consider the linguistic map of Europe and Asia during the 1st millennium B.C., the period in which some of the earliest evidence for the location of early Indo-European languages appears.4 Across northern Europe, running from west to east, were Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic branches, while the so-called "Iranian" branch was spoken on the steppe before moving southward into Iran itself. In Italy existed the Italic branch, its best-known member being Latin, and further east in ancient Europe there were Thracian, Illyrian, Greek, and Albanian branches. During early historical times, the Armenian branch was sited in Asia's far southwest and the Indic branch in south central Asia. Languages descended from all these Indo-European branches of Europe and Asia survive today. But some other branches have died out, such as the Anatolian and Phrygian in Anatolia (which is what prehistorians call Turkey) and the Tocharian in northwest China.

As noted above, this particular survey of Indo-European languages dates to roughly the first millennium B.C. Any such map can have only a rough date, because, for a variety of reasons, the extent of languages will change over time. For example, Celtic used to be spoken over much of western Europe but is nowadays confined to Brittany and the fringes of Britain and Ireland. This doesn't necessarily mean that Celts themselves were driven to Europe's western rim by Romans invading continental Europe and Anglo-Saxons invading England. More probably, ancient Celtic-speakers and their descendants stayed put on the land, and, over time, simply changed their speech. When natives have new rulers who speak an alien language, it must be in the natives' interest to start learning it.

Race and Indo-European Languages
Incidentally, ideas about mass migrations being common during prehistoric times arose in the Victorian age, when Europeans really were migrating en masse to the Americas and the colonial empires. But prehistoric people had no guns, railroads, or steamships, and would have found it much harder than nineteenth-century European colonists to migrate and to conquer natives. Anthropologists rarely find skeletal evidence of mass migrations in prehistory, because the skeletal record largely speaks of biological continuity. So too does Europe's genetic record, for the most part, even going as far back as the Ice Ages.

The discovery that ancient and modern Indo-European languages were spoken over a vast area came as a big jolt to educated people in the nineteenth century. They were staggered that all these languages were descended from a single ancestor. Indeed, the great French linguist Antoine Meillet likened the impact of the discovery of the Indo-Europeans to Columbus's discovery of the New World.

Meillet was right. For one thing, because scholars can reconstruct a good deal of the Proto-Indo-Europeans' language—and, by similar comparative methods, their customs and mythology—we moderns can glimpse a prehistoric mentality. No longer restricted to such humdrum archaeological finds as stone tools and charred seeds, we can get inside the minds of the distant Proto-Indo-Europeans and understand their outlook on life.

Many people also find something intriguing in the idea that one fairly small prehistoric population and its descendants somehow managed to expand across most of Europe and much of Asia, disseminating their language and culture on the way. After all, the Proto-Indo-Europeans' descendants provided much of the language and culture for the civilizations of ancient India, Iran, Greece, Rome, and Celtic and Germanic Europe.

Not surprisingly, Proto-Indo-Europeans were greatly admired by such earlier racial historians as the Count de Gobineau and Madison Grant and, of course, the Aryans were also the favorite people of Adolf Hitler. This enthusiasm for Proto-Indo-Europeans as the ancestors of the white race and European culture has contributed to the contemporary taboo against Westerners identifying too closely with their racial origins.

The racial origins of the Proto-Indo-Europeans are, like race and IQ or race and crime, a red-hot subject. Take the case of Professor Wolfram Nagel of Berlin University, who in 1987 argued in the journal of the German Oriental Society that Proto-Indo-Europeans must have been racially northern European.5 He didn't say they were a master race or destined to conquer the world, just that they were northern European. Although Professor Nagel had reached the top of his profession, his reasoned arguments based on ancient texts and artworks so appalled the learned society that they fired the journal's editors and debated whether to expel him (although in the event they allowed him to stay). This incident offers an insight into the totalitarian climate that intellectuals work under in "democratic" Germany.

Similarly in France, two intellectuals whose books and articles describe Proto-Indo-Europeans as racially northern European—Alain de Benoist,6 the leading figure of the French New Right, and Professor Jean Haudry—are routinely vilified as Nazis. Westerners are living in a strange world, when discussing the origins of their people and culture can land them in so much trouble.

The Search for the Proto-Indo-Europeans’ Homeland
As noted above, the location of the Proto-Indo-European homeland has long been the subject of speculation. One might begin the search for it by deciding if the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language offers any clues about where or when its speakers may have lived. Proto-Indo-European had words for houses, for taming animals, for wagons and for pottery, implying that its people must have lived during the Neolithic or even later, which gives us a general time-frame for the period of archaeological cultures and skeletal material that prehistorians should be examining.7 In addition, the earliest words from one of Proto-Indo-European's daughter languages, Hittite in Anatolia, appeared around 1900 B.C., and so Proto-Indo-European itself must have existed at least a few centuries earlier, before developing into Hittite, and so perhaps before about 2500 B.C.

Proto-Indo-Europeans can therefore be placed vaguely in time. But prehistorians struggle to pin them down geographically. Over the years, scholars and cranks alike have offered dozens of apparent solutions to the problem of the Proto-Indo-European homeland. Many seemingly ingenious proposals have seized on just one reconstructed Proto-Indo-European word, such as beech or salmon, to determine where these occurred in prehistoric times and delimit the homeland, but so far no proposal has worked. All these proposals turn out to be too vague. (One Icelandic linguist offered an especially bizarre idea, arguing that the harsh sound of some Proto-Indo-European words imitates seabirds living around the Baltic.)

Turning to more serious matters, once ancient people had given up hunting and gathering, which necessitated roaming across wide territories, and had taken up the Neolithic, including farming and settling down into hamlets and villages, becoming more or less rooted to the soil, their populations became relatively isolated from one another, and over time their languages also became isolated, accumulating more and more differences from one another. Judging by parts of the world that even now have a Neolithic way of life, the original homeland of the Proto-Indo-Europeans would have been more or less the size of, say, Poland.8

In tracing Proto-Indo-European origins, anthropology offers three main kinds of evidence in Europe and Asia. First, the genetic data, though so far almost all our data comes from modern populations. Second, the masses of information from ancient times about physical types, and most important of all about hair and eye pigmentation—information that comes from texts, artworks and mummified corpses. Finally, the ancient skeletal remains. Now, anthropologists cannot immediately deduce from any archaeological culture's skeletal remains that, in life, its people spoke Proto-Indo-European. All we can do with ancient skeletal material is determine cases of population movements, and then decide if any such movements match the relevant period of Indo-European expansions and the relevant lands penetrated by Indo-Europeans. Likewise with modern genetic material, we can use it only to locate ancient population movements that might correspond with Indo-European expansions.

The ancient texts and artworks recording human pigmentation offer a different kind of evidence. After all, these texts and artworks come from, or are about, historical societies that were certainly Indo-European-speaking, and so some, if not all or even many, of the people in these societies were descended from Proto-Indo-Europeans, as I hope to show later.

Anyway, let's begin with the genetic evidence. Any similar article written in 2020 will discuss at length the evidence of ancient DNA. Ancient DNA taken from human teeth and bone will revolutionize the study of prehistory. It will tell us about the sex of individual ancient humans, their familial relationships and their biological affinities and ancestries. Geneticists might one day draw up a family tree for all the populations of ancient Europe and Asia. And once geneticists have located the genes controlling hair and eye colors, we can speculate about the likely pigmentation of ancient human populations. We shall also use DNA from ancient domesticated crops and animals to explain how early farming expanded.

At present, though, ancient DNA has revealed only that modern humans are not, as Carleton Coon once believed, descended from Neanderthals.9 But as for Indo-Europeans, current studies of ancient DNA tell us next to nothing.

Many prehistorians have used modern genetic data to work out where Proto-Indo-Europeans came from and how they expanded, but most of their ideas are chasing down blind alleys.10 For example, many analyses try to match modern genetic boundaries with modern or ancient linguistic boundaries, arguing that neighbors who speak different languages rarely marry each other, and so over time their populations have diverged genetically. But populations divided genetically and linguistically are also often separated by such physical boundaries as mountains and seas, and this factor complicates matters inextricably.11

This article touches very briefly on a few of the more important findings from genetic studies. First of all, it turns out that, in genetic terms, modern Europe is very homogeneous, and northern Europe even more so. Genetic distances between northern European populations are usually low—between English and Germans, for example, English and French, and English and Irish. In contrast, many genetic distances in southern and eastern Europe are a good deal higher, such as those between Greeks and Hungarians, and Greeks and Yugoslavs.12

Genetically, Greek and Yugoslav populations are among the least typically "European." And the significance of this impinges on Colin Renfrew's hypothesis that around 7000 B.C. Proto-Indo-Europeans were farmers in Anatolia, and indeed farming so well that their big population increases enabled them and their descendants to spread across most of Europe in the course of thousands of years, mixing with indigenous Europeans on the way.13 Yet it seems odd that Greeks should be divided by fairly large genetic distances from Hungarians and Yugoslavs if Anatolian farmers really had expanded via southeast Europe en masse. One might expect such a large-scale population movement to have homogenized gene pools in southeast Europe.

A particular kind of DNA is mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), which has nothing to do with shaping physical or personality traits. Both males and females carry mtDNA, although only mothers pass it on, and when it is inherited there are occasional mutations. In consequence, geneticists can examine mtDNA lineages to determine how they evolved into new types. And comparing lineages from different populations allows us to work out where various lineages arose and, if we estimate mutation rates, when they arose.

Bryan Sykes and others classify modern European mtDNA in nine major lineage groups. Sykes finds that eight of these nine groups arose in Europe as long ago as the Upper Palaeolithic, during the time of the Ice Ages.14 But one lineage group which originated in southwest Asia entered Europe during the last 10,000 years and currently occurs across much of Europe, perhaps comprising 17% of modern European lineages, although another study puts it at more like 10%.15 This lineage group, Sykes argues, ran in two streams—one common along the Mediterranean coast to Spain, Portugal and from there along the Atlantic coast to Cornwall, Wales and western Scotland, the other common in the river valleys of central Europe. And these two streams, he suggests, reflect ancient Anatolian farmers spreading northward and westward across Europe.

As for the problem of Indo-European expansions, Sykes's deduction makes a neat solution. It explains how Indo-Europeans managed during prehistoric times to advance across most of Europe and part of Asia. However, his theory doesn’t makes any sense—at least, not as far as Proto-Indo-Europeans are concerned. Proto-Indo-Europeans appeared later on. For one thing, the age and distribution of the mtDNA stream along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts might be an echo of another migration altogether—the migration that thousands of years later took megalithic tombs around the coasts of western Europe.16

Sykes's hypothesis also runs into difficulties with the skeletal remains.17 Several studies of early Neolithic skeletal material find that, contrary to his hypothesis, remains from the Balkans don't really resemble remains from southwest Asia. So were these two populations related? In addition, we cannot be certain that early Neolithic remains from central Europe closely match remains from the Balkans. So this apparently unstoppable advance from Anatolia via the Balkans to northern Europe is, judging by the skeletal record, by no means proven. But even if it took place, such a population movement might still have no connection with the expansions of Indo-Europeans.

Indeed, linguists can apparently reconstruct Proto-Indo-European words for items of material culture that first appear in the archaeological record, as far as we know, only from the fourth millennium B.C. onwards. Some of these words are for wagon, axle, wheel, and reins.18 But if Proto-Indo-Europeans still existed as a unified population at this late date, then they cannot have begun separating as long ago as 7000 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were still unknown.

Unregistered
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 03:30 PM
http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol2no3/jvd-europeans.html

In Quest of Our Linguistic Ancestors
The Elusive Origins of the Indo-Europeans

John V. Day

The pattern of languages tells a similar story. Archaic languages that preserve Proto-Indo-European forms are often found on the edge of the Indo-European world. Many correspondences link, for example, Germanic in northern Europe and Tocharian in central Asia. Indeed, the Indo-European branch retaining the highest percentage of reconstructed Proto-Indo-European words—about 67% of them—is Germanic, followed by Greek with 60% and Baltic with 54%.19 Again, if farmers had taken thousands of years to migrate across Europe from an Anatolian homeland, one might expect that Germanic and Baltic would have the fewest original words, because migrants traveling ever further into new country for thousands of years, and marrying with natives on the way, would find their original vocabulary becoming more and more diluted.

Consider also the similarity between Indo-European mythologies. Scholars of religion consider the three great reservoirs of Proto-Indo-European mythology to be Rome (think of Mars and Jupiter, Romulus and Remus), Scandinavia (think of Thorburn and Odin), and India (think of Indra the warrior-god and Agni the fire-god).20 Yet, just like the most archaic languages, these three regions sit right on the edge of the Indo-European world, thousands of miles apart. But if Anatolian farmers and their descendants had trekked across Europe and Asia, think how much Proto-Indo-European mythology would have been lost by the time, thousands of years after setting out, that they eventually settled in such distant lands as Rome, Scandinavia and India. So perhaps Indo-European settlers made fairly swift expansions to their new lands, where they established themselves.

Ancestral Clues From Antiquity
Information about how pigmentation was distributed in antiquity provides crucial evidence in understanding where Proto-Indo-Europeans originated and how they expanded, and is far too useful to be disregarded. Many students of Proto-Indo-European origins examine genetic data, and some even consider skeletal remains. But very few in recent years have said anything about ancient texts and artworks recording pigmentation. Linking Proto-Indo-Europeans with a specific pigmentation became a huge taboo once the National Socialists began promoting their doctrine of "blond Aryans," even though similar ideas go back as far as the 1820s.21 But we should ignore taboos of political correctness.

Yet ancient sources about pigmentation are often scarce. A further problem is that the earliest useful texts from each Indo-European branch vary so much in period. The earliest useful texts about pigmentation from India come from the mid-second millennium B.C., whereas those from Ireland and Scandinavia were composed two thousand years later. Ideally, ancient peoples would have compiled anthropological surveys, but these simply don't exist. Descriptions of historical figures provide a rough population sample, although even the Greeks of the classical period virtually never reported the coloring of their greatest men. And so anthropologists must also examine the pigmentation of mythical figures and deities, working on the assumption that their physical appearance mirrors the real-life people who admired or worshiped them.

The Indo-European world covers so many lands and eras that this article will consider just six of the many regions where Indo-European-speaking peoples lived in antiquity: Ireland, Rome, Greece, Iran, India, and Xinjiang (which used to be known as Chinese Turkestan) in northwest China.

For evidence of how the Celts described themselves, we might turn to the highly traditional society of early medieval Ireland. One excellent source from Ireland is the epic Táin Bó Cuailnge, otherwise known as The Cattle Raid of Cooley, probably composed as late as the seventh or eigth century A.D. and lying at the heart of early Irish literature. The Táin and other Irish works contain some valuable descriptions of mythological heroes.22 In the world they depict, beautiful women generally have fair hair and blue eyes, and the great warrior-heroes, although varying more than the women, also tend to have fair hair and, when bearded, always fair beards. Moreover, early Irish tales often regard men who have dark hair as somewhat alien, because some ugly giants and male slaves are dark-haired, and even a few important dark-haired warrior-heroes are regarded as marginal figures.

In ancient Rome, some valuable descriptions of physical traits are embedded in the biographies of early emperors. The earliest nineteen Roman emperors, from Caesar up to Commodus at the end of the Age of the Antonines in A.D. 192, offer a small but exceptionally useful population sample.23 Of these nineteen emperors, four have no descriptions and two are described only as gray-haired. But whereas one or perhaps two of the remainder have dark hair, five are described as having fair or fairish hair. And whereas three have dark eyes, nine have blue or grayish eyes, and indeed five of the first seven have blue or grayish eyes. For example, Augustus and Nero had fairish hair and blue eyes, Caesar had dark eyes, and Hadrian had dark hair and blue eyes. Although upper-class Romans tended to have a light pigmentation, they were greatly outnumbered by the Roman masses, who overwhelmingly had dark hair and eyes.

In Greece, Homer's two epics from the eighth century B.C., the Iliad and the Odyssey, are among the earliest texts in Europe containing useful information about pigmentation.24 When characterizing his Greek warrior-heroes, Homer says nothing about the coloring of Agamemnon, but he does picture Achilles, Meleager, Menelaus, and Odysseus as fair-haired—a coloring that coincides with their youthfulness. Certainly by classical times, however, the great majority of Greeks had dark hair.

Useful information about real rather than fictional Greeks comes from Polemon, the second most important Greek writer on physiognomy, who wrote as late as the second century A.D..25 Polemon explains that "the pure Greek" of his time has fair skin and red hair, and resembles the man inclined to literature and philosophy, who has fair skin and fairish hair. Polemon may have drawn these ideas from Pseudo-Aristotle, the most important Greek physiognomist, who in his third century B.C. Physiognomica declares that the most perfect male type is the lion with its fair mane.26

Fair Indo-Europeans from the Caspian to Turkestan
Turning to Iranians, I remarked earlier that speakers of Indo-European's so-called "Iranian" branch must have lived on the steppe before infiltrating southward to Iran, where non-Indo-European Elamites already had a civilization. Now, Greek and Roman writers in the centuries before and after Christ stated that Iranian-speaking peoples north of the Black Sea and Caspian had fair or reddish hair and blue eyes.27 One especially trustworthy source is Ammianus Marcellinus, because he had visited the Black Sea region, unlike the writers who simply relied on others' reports, and he portrays the Alans with fairish hair.

From Iran itself, although nowadays housed in the Louvre in Paris, comes the Archer Frieze of glazed bricks, which was created about 500 B.C. to represent the bodyguards of Darius I.28 Most of the eighteen or so archers on the frieze have dark skin, hair, and eyes, but a few have blue eyes. This frieze originally stood outdoors, causing the pigment for archers' skins to darken over time. But we do have some brick fragments showing paler skin, and Annie Caubet, the director of the Louvre's Department of Oriental Antiquities, told me in a letter that pinkish skin probably came from the frieze's portrayal of Darius himself.

Many similarities in language, as well as in mythology and culture, are shared by the Indo-European's Iranian and Indian branches, which implies that, wherever the Proto-Indo-Europeans had their homeland, the Proto-Iranians and Proto-Indians must even then have been neighbors who resembled each other physically. One similarity is that the Indo-European peoples in Iran and India both referred to themselves as Aryans. The Iranian king Darius I, in a famous rock inscription, calls himself "an Aryan of the Aryans," and the very word Iran developed from Aryan. These days, more and more linguists are returning to the older opinion that the term Aryan occurred throughout the Indo-European world, cropping up, for instance, in the Old Irish word aire meaning "noble, free," and hence Ireland's name of Eire. To the Proto-Indo-Europeans, it seems, Aryan meant peer or comrade or perhaps an ethnic term.29

In India, the earliest known Indo-European text, coming from the later second millennium B.C., is the religious work, the Rig-Veda.30 Only one god in the Rig-Veda has anything like a human pigmentation, and he is the great warrior-god Indra. In personality and attributes, Indra resembles the Germanic god Thorburn, and even his fair hair and beard resemble Thorburn's red beard.31 Throughout the Rig-Veda, Indra often helps the warlike Aryans—the Indo-European invaders of India—to battle against the native Dasas and Dasyus, who are portrayed as dark-skinned. In contrast, the Rig-Veda refers to Aryans as white and having an "Aryan color."

Later works from ancient India also offer useful sources, and one of them is the very long Mahabhasya, composed in northern India by the grammarian Patañjali in the second century B.C. 32 In this work, Patañjali, making a philosophical point about objects having and lacking attributes, casts around for an illustration that makes obvious sense to his readers. Nobody, Patañjali says, would look at a dark-skinned man and imagine that he was a brahmin, from India's highest caste. Instead, he goes on, everyone knows that brahmins have fair skins and kapila-kesa hair, which translates as "brown" or "reddish-brown."

Finally, abundant evidence comes from Xinjiang in northwest China, the home of people speaking Indo-European's Tocharian branch. Unfortunately, ancient Chinese sources rarely comment on the physical appearance of foreigners. But they do record that the Yuezhi, who may have been Tocharians under another name, had fair skins, and that the Wusun's descendants, again possibly Tocharian, had green (or blue) eyes and red beards.33

Some of the best evidence for Tocharians is artistic, because they were painted on murals in Xinjiang during the later first millennium A.D. One example is the so-called Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers at Kizil.34 Of these sixteen knights, five have white hair and eleven have light red hair. Marianne Yaldiz, the director of Berlin's Museum for Indian Art, where the murals are now housed, told me in a letter that the eyes are a sort of gray-green-blue. Although the men wear Iranian-style dress and stand in an Iranian-style pose, historians generally regard them as Tocharians.

Still, all of these sixteen figures are stereotyped. To find individual portrayals, we must turn to other murals in Xinjiang that are three hundred miles further east at Bezeklik.35 Murals at Bezeklik chiefly portray typically Chinese faces, although all these Mongoloids are stereotyped. In contrast, the minority of Caucasoids on the murals are rendered as individual portraits, as in one cave at Bezeklik which portrays about six or seven Buddhist monks who have Caucasoid features. These Caucasoid monks are apparently a distinct ethnic group—unlike the Mongoloids, they all have heads shaven on top, and all wear similar gowns—and are almost certainly Tocharians. One or two of these Caucasoid monks have dark hair and brown eyes, but most have reddish-brown hair and blue or green eyes.

In recent years, archaeologists working in Xinjiang's Tarim Basin have excavated more than one hundred Caucasoid mummies, thanks to a desert climate and salty soil’s having preserved corpses. Even some mummies 3,000 years old look as though they were buried days ago. These Caucasoid mummies have typically northern European faces, with prominent noses, unslanted eyes, and hair that is usually fair or light brown.36 Although the mummies' eyes have long since perished, we know that two infants were buried with stones placed over their eyes, one with green stones and one with blue, colors perhaps representing their irises.37 Judging by the mummies' location, historians conclude that at least the great majority of these Caucasoids were ancestral Tocharians.

Origins on the Steppe?
Does this brief survey of pigmentation in ancient Ireland, Rome, Greece, Iran, India, and Xinjiang tell us anything? I think it clearly does. Light-haired and light-eyed types were found all over the ancient Indo-European world, even in lands which at present are overwhelmingly dark in pigmentation, such as Rome and India. And traces of these northern European types occurred especially among the warriors who comprised each society's ruling class.

Ireland had an abundance of fair-haired warrior-heroes. Most of the early Greek warrior-heroes had fair hair, too. In fact, most of the early Roman emperors had fair or fairish hair and blue eyes. The Iranians who lived on the steppe north of the Black and Caspian Sea were also described by foreign observers as having fair or fairish hair. Indian Brahmins have been characterized as having fair skins and brown or reddish-brown hair, and the Indian warrior-god Indra apparently had fair hair as well. Finally, the mummies and murals of Xinjiang reveal that most Tocharians had fair or brownish hair and blue or green eyes.

Moreover, Indo-Europeans often seem to have been small minorities in the countries they penetrated: the Celtic warrior-class in Ireland; the Roman patricians; the few Homeric heroes and the so-called "pure Greeks" of later years; and the Aryans battling against the many natives in India. Then again, the majority of Tocharians in Xinjiang apparently had light pigmentation, as did most Iranians living on the steppe.

Indeed, many prehistorians believe that the Proto-Indo-European homeland lay on the steppe, which, if true, might explain why steppe Iranians retained the Proto-Indo-Europeans' northern European physical type. A steppe homeland, moreover, would have been a good basis for Indo-European expansions. Steppe groups during the third millennium B.C. and earlier lived mainly by cattle and sheep herding, and by at least the third millennium B.C. they had also domesticated the horse. Down to historical times, such other steppe pastoralists as the Huns and Mongols have been highly mobile horseriders and warlike, too, living in the midst of poor farmland and consequently raiding neighbors for food supplies. So if Proto-Indo-Europeans did originate on the steppe, they may also have been highly expansionist.

To confirm that Proto-Indo-Europeans did originate on the steppe, we must find traces in the skeletal record of prehistoric steppe groups expanding across the known Indo-European world—to Xinjiang, Iran, India, Greece, Rome, and northern Europe. The evidence of pigmentation surveyed above implies that Indo-Europeans were usually minorities in the lands they entered, and must have expanded from their homeland in smallish groups. This finding tallies broadly with the skeletal record, which in general points to continuity in prehistoric Europe and Asia, where population movements on a large scale were the rare exception.

But prehistoric steppe groups did extend as far east as southern Siberia and Xinjiang, as demonstrated by both archaeological evidence and the remains of robust skeletal types.38 At present, though, traces of these steppe groups have not been found entering Iran or India, and neither can they be located as far west as Italy. In the northern Balkans, prehistoric steppe groups are certainly represented by skeletal and archaeological remains, but did they penetrate as far south as Greece? Archaeological traces of steppe groups largely peter out before Greece, but the renowned Grave Circle B at Mycenae resembles steppe tombs, and the very rugged nobles buried here also resemble steppe groups.39 Steppe groups definitely expanded as far westward as central Europe as well, judging by the three thousand steppe graves known in eastern Hungary, and, although the females buried here seem lightly built, the males are similar to robust steppe types.40

But did steppe groups reach northern Europe? It is there that several important Indo-European peoples first emerge into history: Slavs, Balts, Germans, and Celts. The archaeological record is ambiguous: there are many disputed parallels between the Late Neolithic culture of northern Europe, known as Corded Ware, and Neolithic steppe culture, although vague cultural parallels can't automatically be attributed to migrating groups. The skeletal remains are less ambiguous, however, because they show no traces of steppe groups reaching northern Europe. The typically Corded Ware skulls from Germany, Czechoslovakia , and Poland are high and have narrow faces, whereas steppe crania are low and have broad faces.41

The archaeological and skeletal evidence seems to leave us with three possibilities. First, that steppe groups did reach northern Europe, but in such small numbers it makes it nearly impossible to detect them. Second, that steppe groups didn't reach northern Europe, which proves that, at least in this region, steppe groups were not transmitting Indo-European speech. Third, that steppe groups didn't need to reach northern Europe, because Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in a vast homeland that encompassed the steppe and northern Europe.

The puzzle remains. But steppe groups must somehow be implicated in Proto-Indo-European origins. They, and they alone among prehistoric groups, expanded to much of Europe and Asia where Indo-European languages were known to have been spoken. Perhaps one day archaeologists and anthropologists will determine exactly the prehistoric links, if any, between the steppe and northern Europe. Scholars might also have a clearer picture about Indo-European influences in eastern Asia—on the civilizations of China, where Indo-Europeans may have introduced bronze-working and the chariot, and Japan, whose mythology bears unmistakable affinities with Proto-Indo-European mythology.42

What we can declare is that Indo-Europeans tended to expand in small groups, and that in the great civilizations of Ireland, Rome, Greece, and India they and their descendants were heavily outnumbered minorities who were concentrated in the ruling classes. I take it that Indo-Europeans were ruling these lands because they had somehow dominated the natives by force of arms, although the archaeological evidence for this assertion scarcely exists. So far, prehistorians have found it perplexing to explain from the archaeological record how Indo-Europeans arrived in any land and established themselves as the commanding power.

And what happened to these Indo-Europeans? It appears that at least Europe and southern Asia were so densely populated by Neolithic times that small groups of newcomers would have made little biological impact on the natives. Since Proto-Indo-Europeans began expanding about five thousand years ago, two hundred generations have passed, and the few drops of their original blood have been lost in an ocean of non-Indo-Europeans. Traces of light hair and eyes crop up now and again in modern Iran and northern India, and even in Xinjiang, where Dolkun Kamberi, a local expert on the Caucasoid mummies, has green eyes and light brown hair. Light hair and eyes are more common in modern Greece and Rome and especially Ireland, although in northern Europe most traces probably predate any incoming Indo-Europeans.

In a journal about the West and its future, it is fitting to end this article by briefly recounting the fate of the Roman upper class. Among Indo-European peoples, the Romans offer an especially useful example because they left masses of records, enabling later historians to determine what became of them. The evidence found in ancient texts implies that this class descended largely from Indo-Europeans who had a decidedly northern European physical type, although that isn't something one reads in modern books about Roman history. In Rome, though, the upper class was always a tiny minority. Instead of protecting its interests, it allowed itself to wither away. Consider a bleak statistic. We know of about fifty patrician clans in the fifth century B.C., but by the time of Caesar, in the later first century B.C., only fourteen of these had survived.43 The decay continued in imperial times. We know of the families of nearly four hundred Roman senators in A.D. sixty five, but, just one generation later, all trace of half of these families had vanished.44

If we in the West want to avoid a similar fate, we must learn from Indo-European history.


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John V. Day, Ph.D., is the author of Indo-European Origins: The Anthropological Evidence (The Institute for the Study of Man, 2001) and is the editor of the forthcoming anthology, The Lost Philosopher: The Best of Anthony M. Ludovici.


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End Notes
1. For an excellent introduction to the subject, see Shan M.M. Winn, Heaven, Heroes, and Happiness: The Indo-European Roots of Western Ideology, Lanham, MD: University Press of America, 1995. See also John V. Day, Indo-European Origins: The Anthropological Evidence, Washington, DC: Institute for the Study of Man, 2001.

2. In the interests of clarity, linguists have transliterated the Greek, Sanskrit, and Proto-Indo-European words in the following examples into the Roman alphabet, removed any accents, and used only the root of each word without any suffixes.

3. For a survey of modern English words that ultimately derive from Proto-Indo-European, see Calvert Watkins, The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1985.

4. It is not only Indo-Europeans that had a wide language family. Uralic, for example, comprises Finnish, Lapp, Estonian and Hungarian and various languages of northwest Asia. But in modern Europe the only significant peoples who do not speak Indo-European languages are Basques, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, and Georgians. Together, these non-Indo-European-speakers number only about 25 million out of over 500 million Europeans.

5. Wolfram Nagel, "Indogermanen und Alter Orient -- Rückblick und Ausblick auf den Stand des Indogermanenproblems," Mitteilungen der Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft 119, 1987, pp. 157-213.

6. Alain de Benoist, "Indo-Européens: à la recherche du foyer d'origine; quatre remarques finales," Nouvelle École 49, 1997, pp. 13-105.

7. Day, pp. 4-6.

8. Day, p. 8.

9. Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve, New York: W.W. Norton, 2001, p. 126.

10. Patrick Sims-Williams, "Genetics, Linguistics, and Prehistory: Thinking Big and Thinking Straight," Antiquity 72, 1998, pp. 505-27.

11. Day, pp. 253-66.

12. L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, and Alberto Piazza, The History and Geography of Human Genes, Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1994, p. 270.

13. Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, London: Jonathan Cape, 1987.

14. Day, p. 277; Sykes, pp. 184, 196.

15. Day, pp. 279-80.

16. Day, pp. 278-9.

17. Day, pp. 221-33.

18. J.P. Mallory and D.Q. Adams, eds., Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, Chicago: Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997, pp. 481, 625-8.

19. Day, p. 24.

20. Jaan Puhvel, Comparative Mythology, Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, paperback edition, 1989, p. 39.

21. Day, p. 125.

22. Day, pp. 107-13.

23. Day, pp. 102-6

.24. Day, pp. 87-92.

25. Day, p. 94.

26. Day, pp. 94-5.

27. Day, p. 57.

28. Day, pp. 134-6.

29. Puhvel, p. 45; Mallory and Adams, p. 213.

30. Day, pp. 74-9.

31. Day, pp. 79, 115-16.

32. Day, pp. 80-2.

33. Day, pp. 58-9.

34. Day, pp. 137-8; J.P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair, The Tarim Mummies: Ancient China and the Mystery of the Earliest Peoples from the West, London: Thames & Hudson, 2000, plate XII.

35. Day, pp. 138-9; Mallory and Mair, Plate XIII.

36. Day, pp. 351-5; Mallory and Mair, pp. 181-200.

37. Day, p. 352 n. 1.

38. Day, pp.184-7, 190-4.

39. Day, pp. 199-200.

40. Day, p. 209.

41. Day, p. 206.

42. Mallory and Mair, pp. 324-6, 327-8; Michael Puett, "China in Early Eurasian History: A Brief Review of Recent Scholarship on the Issue," in Victor H. Mair, ed., The Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia, Washington, DC: Institute for the Study of Man; Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Museum Publications, 2 volumes, 1998, pp. 699-715; C. Scott Littleton, "The Indo-European Strain in Japanese Mythology: A Review of Some Recent Research," Mankind Quarterly 26, 1985-6, pp. 152-74.

43. Arnaldo Momigliano and Tim J. Cornell, "Patricians," in Simon Hornblower and Anthony Spawforth, eds., The Oxford Classical Dictionary, New York: Oxford University Press, 3rd edition, 1996, p. 1123.

44. James Paton Isaac, Factors in the Ruin of Antiquity: A Criticism of Ancient Civilization, Canada: no publisher, 1971, p. 421. See also Nathaniel Weyl and Stefan T. Possony, The Geography of Intellect, Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1963, pp. 106-9; Ilse Schwidetzky, Das Problem des Völkertodes: Eine Studie zur historischen Bevölkerungsbiologie, Stuttgart: Ferdinand Enke, 1954, pp. 43-53.

Unregistered
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 03:31 PM
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----------------------------------------------------

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Polak
Thursday, September 4th, 2003, 08:42 PM
First of all, Max Von Sydow is a not a Halstatt, he is a perfect Cord. And funnily enough, Sydow clearly is a Slavic name.

But here is my theory about Nordics. It is quite simple, but I think makes a lot of sense.

The European race evolved somewhere in west/south Asia and then moved north in great numbers about 35,000-40,000 years ago.

The northern branch, both in Europe and Asia, became relatively depigmented, but included all sorts of types skeletally speaking - UPs and Nordics - from Europe to Central Asia. Obviously, their ratios varied from place to place, from ethnic group to ethnic group, and from period to period, but they were all there more or less.

This is not such a far fetched idea considering Europeans are all so close to each other - even the Y-chromosome genetic markers Eu18 and EU19, which mark off western Europe from Eastern Europe are often regarded even today as the same Haplotype R.

Thus, with the genetic material being pretty much the same, or very similar, from Spain to Western China, we had micro-evolution happening via natural and social selection. And do not forget that the enviornment also plays a significant role in how genes are expressed. This is particularly seen in populations which unrego significant changes in economic and living standards.

Add to that the significant mobility of the white populations from ancient times to the present...

So then we saw Nordic-like populations dominating in such places as western Europe, northern Europe, eastern Europe, and even central Asia. All of these were derived from the CroMagnid type, and often lived very close - both in terms of geography and history - to UP-like people.

The fact that the mummies in western China have low vaults doesn't mean they are more closely related to the Irish than the higher headed Nordics of Central Asia. In fact, I bet that if we did a detailed genetic study on them, we'd find that the opposite was true.

Note that low vaulted Nordics are not confined to western Europe. Even today they are pretty common in eastern Europe and southern and central Russia. They live here alongside the more common high vaulted Nordic. But there's no evidence most of them are derived from western sources (though some probably are). Their genetic markers are the same as those of the high headed locals.

I don't think there's any need to look for some mystery links between ancient Egyptians and Swedes (Meds and Nordics), or the Irish and those Chinese mummies (low skulled whites). The links are pretty clear - they come from the same stock. Maybe in the past, when genetic research was just a pipe dream, such theories were plausible, but not today.

Unregistered
Sunday, September 7th, 2003, 11:54 AM
And here is some info I found on another forum. Not sure if I agree with it, because I was under the impression that the Kurgans conquered the Dniepr-Donetsk people...but maybe I'm wrong.

First were Dniepr-Donetzk tribes, original Indo-Europeans. Tall, robust, broad faced, very high skulled, dolichocephalic.

Skeletal remaines were found in burials in Vassilievka and all over Eastern Europe.

Vassilievka I
L 195.2
B 133.6
H 144.7
FB 140.6
NA 32.3''

Vassilievka III
L 194.1
B 137
H -/-
FB 141
NA 35.2''

Kirsna (Latvia)
L 193
B 133
H 142
FB 129
NA -/-

Zveineki (Latvia)
L 192
B 133.8
H 141.2
FB 137.6
NA 36.3''

Later they evolved to the Battle-Axe/Baltic type, with somewhat less broad face, bt still broad, and even longer skull. This type occupied territory from Visla to Kama. It were northern Indo-Europeans, the northern branch. To south there were Southern Indo-Europeans, more gracile and (at least on later stages) rather narrow-faced, with lesser craniums.

Northern IEs started moving into Europe, and became Proto-Germanics, proto-Celts, proto-Italics, proto-Hellas etc., but were mainly absorbed by local narrow faced Danubians (LBK culture). Thus Central European CW culture appeared. Southern IEs became proto-Iranians and proto-Indo-Aryans, and started moving into Asia.

Due to later Germanic, Italic and Iranian influence on the westren periphery of the Baltic/Battle-Axe world Slavs appeared, as Slavic was the western branch of the Baltic (or Balto-Slavic) language. Slavs started moving (or rather it was historical migration of Baltic BAs) in all directions. A lot of Iranians were "Slavicized" and became Antes. Later some of them moved to Balkansand became Croats and Serbs. Some Slavs, or rather westren Balts,started moving into Central Russia. Later there was influx of Southern Slavs (Vyatiches and Severyanes), who used to be Antes(Slavo-Iranians).

Thus homogenous Slavic region was formed (from Visla to Volga, and from Novgorod to Chernigov).

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 04:12 AM
Corded or Battle Axe people were gracile UP. I asked a Professor of Indo-European Studies about the physical anthropology of Corded people and she said "they were gracile Cro-Magnons". She was not a physical anthropologist so she did not make the distinction between Cro-Magnons and the bulk of the Upper Paleolithic population, through geography and time, but her meaning was clear. She was a Hungarian and had done extensive excavation in central and eastern Europe. She had dug up many Corded sites. For those interested, George Bush (senior) is an almost perfect Corded type.

Besides Corded people we must consider the probability of Ladagonian people contributing to the general Nordic gene pool. I say this because with a little infantilizion (neoteny) this type becomes Danubian. Also, without any infantilization, the Ladagonian holotype, with its sloping forehead yeilds, with the Corded, the Scythiians, who, with a little Danubian accretation yield a Hallstatt Nordic, almost identical with the later German Reihengraeber series which originally came out of southern Sweden aprox. 1000 years later during the Volkswanderung period.

Polak
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 09:45 AM
Corded or Battle Axe people were gracile UP. I asked a Professor of Indo-European Studies about the physical anthropology of Corded people and she said "they were gracile Cro-Magnons". She was not a physical anthropologist so she did not make the distinction between Cro-Magnons and the bulk of the Upper Paleolithic population, through geography and time, but her meaning was clear. She was a Hungarian and had done extensive excavation in central and eastern Europe. She had dug up many Corded sites. For those interested, George Bush (senior) is an almost perfect Corded type.

Besides Corded people we must consider the probability of Ladagonian people contributing to the general Nordic gene pool. I say this because with a little infantilizion (neoteny) this type becomes Danubian. Also, without any infantilization, the Ladagonian holotype, with its sloping forehead yeilds, with the Corded, the Scythiians, who, with a little Danubian accretation yield a Hallstatt Nordic, almost identical with the later German Reihengraeber series which originally came out of southern Sweden aprox. 1000 years later during the Volkswanderung period.


Indeed, I have seen archeologists refer to Kurgan people as gracile Co-Magnons.

Basically, I see this as evidence that northern European Nordids and UP types were closely related, and not foreign populations that came into contact suddenly during the Aryan invasions.

torrent
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 03:06 PM
Indeed, I have seen archeologists refer to Kurgan people as gracile Co-Magnons.
hello,
Basically, I see this as evidence that northern European Nordids and UP types were closely related, and not foreign populations that came into contact suddenly during the Aryan invasions.
corded is high vault, danubean was originally high vault the only low vault danubean was found in a unique location. so corded cannot be both a gracilized cromagnon and a highvault specie. you just interchagebly use corded and kurgans. indeed corded is kurganid too but refers to a specific time. the kurganid defined as gracilized cromagnon (protoeuropid with various mongoloid deviations) are another type.
best regards

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, September 30th, 2003, 02:20 AM
Besides the cranial differences, Corded people were taller and had more robust bodies. The Corded people lived in hill forts and apparently spent much time hearding and at war. The Danubians lived more of a farming life and, at least sometimes, lived in large villages almost like those of the Near East. Some of the earliest bone evidence for the domestication of pigs, cattle and horses can be found in Danubian sites. Some of it even predates sites in Turkey. Clearly, these two cultures lived by different means and it showed in them physically. If and when these two peoples came together to form Nordics some things could be expected other than a simple combination of traits, regressing back to a mean. This is because of heterosis. The Corded people were not Med. while the Danubians were. Anytime two very different races interbreed hybrid vigor comes into play. The resulting offspring can exhibit extreme variation. This might be of selective value and could have resulted in altered allelic frequencies resulting in one type of Nordic.

cosmocreator
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 10:17 PM
I am currently reading the Races of Europe by Coon.

He writes that the ancient Egyptians were similar in type to Danubians. He also writes that the Corded (Battle Axe) type is similar to ancient people from East Africa, Sumer, and SE Europe. Battle axes found in Europe attributed to these people have also been found in Southern Iraq. I find it hard to believe that these people are not Mediterraneans. As far as I know they didn't exist before the Neolithic.

Corded are tall and more robust but so are Atlanto-Meds.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 05:41 AM
I am currently reading the Races of Europe by Coon.

He writes that the ancient Egyptians were similar in type to Danubians. He also writes that the Corded (Battle Axe) type is similar to ancient people from East Africa, Sumer, and SE Europe. Battle axes found in Europe attributed to these people have also been found in Southern Iraq. I find it hard to believe that these people are not Mediterraneans. As far as I know they didn't exist before the Neolithic.

Corded are tall and more robust but so are Atlanto-Meds.


On further consideration I wonder if all Meds at one time were fair-skinned. Coon is indeterminate whether there were some fair and some dark. But perhaps, they were originally all fair, and the dark ones are such because of mixture.

Vojvoda
Thursday, November 20th, 2003, 07:03 PM
the Starcevo culture, which precedes Linear Pottery, ought to be considered "Caspian" in characteristics.

What about Lepenski Vir?

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, November 20th, 2003, 07:13 PM
What about Lepenski Vir?

With Caspian I meant Caspid: high-vaulted.

The Lepenski Vir in its mesolithic phase seems to cluster with mesolithic North Africans, but in the early neolithic it's indistictive from the mediterrenean series in South ans SW Europe and yet other results are again incongruent, aligning the mesolithic series with Northen Europe, Brittany and the Ukraine.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, April 5th, 2004, 07:20 AM
I am currently reading the Races of Europe by Coon.



Corded are tall and more robust but so are Atlanto-Meds.

Yes, and there may really be little difference in the skull. My impression is that the whole concept of Atlanto-Meds. was useful in explaining the Megalithic monuments and the fact that such diverse sub-races were being found in the British Isles and Western Europe. I always think of George Bush, the elder, as a Corded but he might fit into the Atlanto-Med. profile also. It is my understanding that the genetic evidence shows that Atlanto-Meds. are not Meds. as Southern European Meds. but are as fully European as any other sub-division.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, April 5th, 2004, 03:59 PM
Yes, and there may really be little difference in the skull. My impression is that the whole concept of Atlanto-Meds. was useful in explaining the Megalithic monuments and the fact that such diverse sub-races were being found in the British Isles and Western Europe. I always think of George Bush, the elder, as a Corded but he might fit into the Atlanto-Med. profile also. It is my understanding that the genetic evidence shows that Atlanto-Meds. are not Meds. as Southern European Meds. but are as fully European as any other sub-division.

This is true overall, but there are traces of a contribution from North Africa, which was assimilated more completely than in (pre-Moorish) Iberia.

It may have appeared as early as the Mesolithic tool industries, if the Azilian and Taedenoisian are made by the assimilation of Capsians migrating to their north.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, April 5th, 2004, 04:49 PM
This is true overall, but there are traces of a contribution from North Africa, which was assimilated more completely than in (pre-Moorish) Iberia.

It may have appeared as early as the Mesolithic tool industries, if the Azilian and Taedenoisian are made by the assimilation of Capsians migrating to their north.

Paradoxically, there is little to sustain a ceasura between the European Mesolithic population until the Neolithic with the vast majority of new, less primitive and some even very modern types of Mediterrenanids arriving from a mainly SE direction, but by the time the Chalcolithic period begins, these are decline in favour of more rugged and alledgedly cromagnoid races who all the sudden after centuries of seemingly replacement re-emerge.
The Near Easter Capellid and the high-skulled Capsian Mediterrenid are e.g. typical in there Med. strain in a less sloping but bulging, rounded forehead, whereas the so-called Archeomorphic Meds(term applied by Riquet) of Brittany, Aquitania and so on have receding foreheads and otherwise might be llinked to Chancelade and Laugerie, the latter a smaller version of the European West-Cro Magnon.