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View Full Version : If not 'Neo-Danubians', then what?


QuietWind
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 03:19 AM
I have read lately that some people do not believe in a Neo-Danubian classification. If this is true, then what would those people who have previously been classified as ND be? For example, the people on Nordish.com? What type or types would they fit into if not Neo-Danubian?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 05:17 AM
Polak does not believe in Neo-Danubians as a valid sub-race. He is from Poland and the Polish plains were said to be an area of great concentration of Neo-Danubians. He is there, he is certainly qualified, he says no. It is hard to dispute his observation.

Nordraserei
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 09:16 PM
Polak does not believe in Neo-Danubians as a valid sub-race. He is from Poland and the Polish plains were said to be an area of great concentration of Neo-Danubians. He is there, he is certainly qualified, he says no. It is hard to dispute his observation.
I don't think she asked who or who doesn't believe in the existence of Neo Danubians. I also don't think she was trying to dispute whether they do or do not exist. From what I saw, she asked a question about what people previously classified as Neo Danubian would be in the eyes of people who don't believe in that classification. :)

WestPrussian
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 10:51 PM
I have read lately that some people do not believe in a Neo-Danubian classification. If this is true, then what would those people who have previously been classified as ND be? For example, the people on Nordish.com? What type or types would they fit into if not Neo-Danubian?Good question! I tend to agree with the grandiosely named 'Society for Nordish Physical Anthropology' on this issue and would certainly be interested in hearing what other ideas are out there. Here is the definition of neo-danubians according to that site
Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.along with some pics http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm
(I disagree that Nastassja Kinski who is also shown as representative of neo-danubians is of the same type)

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe314a.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe314c.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/baiul.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/kourni.jpg

Are you sure that people disagree with classifying these people as neo-danubians, however? I think there might be some objections to claims that this type is typical for the Polish. Again, I would emphatically agree that it is not.

cruhmann
Saturday, October 16th, 2004, 03:44 AM
When I look at pictures of certain Slavic groups, especially central and eastern Polish, Byelorussian, Slovak, and some Ukrainian groups, as well as some Finno-Ugric groups, I see among them people who look Danubian + Ladogan. You can call this type whatever name you want to, but it does exists. There are also a small number of Czechs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovenes and even east-central Germans and eastern Austrians who belong to the same type. It may be similar to, or overlap with other designations, such as Gorid or Vistulian.
The East-Baltic race, which occurs in the Baltic nations, northern Poland and parts of Finland, and to a lesser degree in northeast Germany, is Ladogan (or Neo-Danubian) + Borreby, and in some regions Corded or Nordic.

Glenlivet
Saturday, October 16th, 2004, 07:12 AM
Lundman also saw a relation between Borreby and East-Baltic.

Lundman (Nordens Rastyper, 1940) wrote, "Vi återgå nu till Danmark. Liknande dem i Mecklenburg, ehuru mindre primitiva äro några fynd från Danmarks yngre stenålder (med Skåne, som denna tid i allo hörde ihop med Danmark). Det är den s. k. Borrebytypen som, ehuru i allmänhet mycket uppblandad, influerat på typen hos en stor del av de från denna tid över 200 bevarade stenålderskallarna. Borrebytypen är tydligen närbesläktat med i Östbaltikum funna stenålderstyper, ur vilka den ostbaltiska rasen framgått. Danska stenåldersfolkets huvudmassa hörde dock knappast hit."

My translation of the quote above from Swedish to English:

We now return to Denmark. Similar to them in Mecklenburg, albeit less primitive are some discoveries from Denmark's younger Ston Age (with Skåne, which at this time belonged to Denmark in all ways). It is the so-called Borreby type that, although generally speaking very hybridised, influenced
the type among a large part of the from this time over 200 preserved Stone Age skulls. The Borreby type is evidently closely-related with in the East Baltic found Ston Age types, that out of the East Baltic race come about. Nevertheless, the Danish Stone Age folk's main mass hardly belonged here.

As for the Neo-Danubian, the facial morphology is very Gorid (short - and high-skulled) looking. Gorid is present in Southwestern Poland and Czech Rep., and the type is short, stocky and dark (but light eyes are not uncommon). I do not know how numerous the look is, or exactly how it arised, but there is something there. The type is also somewhat similar to Biasutti's Carpathian example of Baltic (East-Baltic). There is a woman (with a Slavic accent) on CNN International who has this look. I forgot her name. I would say that the look even exist in parts of Ukraine (Chernigov in the north is supposedly Gorid land), but not among Great Russians or Northern Poles.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, October 16th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Ladogan as "simi-Mongoloid"? What is the evidence for this--the genetic evidence? Also, there is a problem with Ladogan being a major component in the Neo-Danubian without some sort of paedomorphic factors being involved. I have never seen a picture of the Lake Ladogo fossils but my understanding is that they are UP with an upturned nose. To "get down" to a ND takes some work or an intermediary form such as East Baltic, but it still has the paedomorphic problem. Coon said this happened due to the infusion of Med. genes. Now, this seems suspect. Polak says ND in Poland is lacking. Poland is Slavic country, no doubt. So, if we are to understand the ND phylogeny or lack thereof, we really must go to some new evidence--genetic evidence. In my opinion, there are several people here: Euclides, Agrippa, Njord, who are pretty good with this science, but, I think Polak is "The Man" in genetics. For this reason, he should be found and brought to Skadi justice until he divulges all he knows concerning this topic.