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Sigyn
Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 10:12 PM
I know this has nothing to do with Germanic peoples, but since this seems to be the best race-related board out there, I figure I'd post my question about the Tatars here.

I've always wondered what "racial group" the Tatars belong to? I've gathered that they're the descendants of the Mongol hordes that used to rule large parts of Russia. But on the pictures I dug up, they don't look completely Mongol to me. They seem to be a strange mix of several races.

Could the professional Skadi anthropologists answer this question?

Here are a few pictures of these people:

http://img.dni.ru/binaries/v2_articlepic/233233.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6861/anthrd.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1049/abdrahimhasan.jpg

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8883/giray.jpg

Loyalist
Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 10:46 PM
I believe Tatars are a mixed, but primarily Turkic group driven west by the Mongols. Of course they spent centuries under the domination of, and in service with, the latter, so it is reasonable to assume a fair amount of mixing occured. As they migrated around Eurasia they likely absorbed further admixture from Slavs, Caucasians, Central Asians, and so on. Specific racial appearance probably depends on location and thus level of admixture; I would expect a Tatar from Poland or Ukraine to look decidedly more Europid than a counterpart from Kazakhstan or Siberia.

Alfadur
Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 11:04 PM
The Tatars of today are a race-mixed group, although they were originally a Turko-Mongol nomad people. Most of them live around the Volga river and are Muslims, although very secular ones. Tatars are known for training eagles to hunt for them, which I find rather fascinating.

They're a mixed bunch for the same reason as the Amerindians in the US. The Russians, when they conquered the east, miscegenated with the Tatars a lot. It's the same thing with several Amerindians, who are mixed with Anglo settlers to the point of looking "almost white". Both the Russians and the Anglo-Americans would push their mixed-race offspring below the color line into the non-white group, and so the Tatars were gradually "whitened" over the course of centuries. By now, most of the Tatars in southern Russia have a vaguely "Eurasian" appearance.

(This "whitening" didn't happen to the Negroes, because white-on-black rape wasn't so widespread, but mainly because the black genes are very dominant. The Tatars/Amerindians have recessive mongoloid genes.)

GeistFaust
Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 11:09 PM
The Tartars are one of the many Turkic Asiatic peoples that attempted to move into Europe or actually successfully did so. Anthropologically they are mostly of the Turanid stock but there are a few that have more Caucasian features. A lot of them started pushing their way in Europe during the assault of Eurasian Hordes ranging from the 5th to 14th century. There were various waves of them and their affiliation was mostly based on a tribal basis. Most of the characters you have posted up there would fall in the range from Turanid to Aralid with some falling somewhere in between.

GeistFaust
Wednesday, October 26th, 2011, 11:25 PM
The top woman looks like a good example of a Turanid.
The one guy below her looks like an Aralid.
The boy below him looks like a more Tungid variant of the Aralid.
The guy below him looks like a Turanid.
The guy in that depiction looks like an Aralid.

Sigyn
Thursday, October 27th, 2011, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the answers. I guess this solves the Tatar mystery.

So the majority of Tatars, who live in southern Russia, are basically mixed-race. While the original ones were entirely Mongol, which can be seen by the Tatar population in Central Asia.

Here's some more Tatar pictures I found on google:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/474/safina1.jpg

http://s58.radikal.ru/i161/0904/16/ecc3687f4367.jpg

http://www.shoppingood.ru/img/donory/donor_chulpan.jpg

http://i053.radikal.ru/0903/f7/1ffd38211d2b.jpg

Northern Paladin
Thursday, October 27th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Marat Safin, Tatar but very Europid-Cromagnid looking:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GK8DSVhGXcs/TeZ5e5Wr79I/AAAAAAAAHSQ/CZfgxjTeaI0/s1600/marat-safin-dubai09a.jpghttp://gototennis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Marat_Safin1.jpghttp://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheBWFYYXQGC2FMAW4=UGVVCGXLLVBLB3BSZQ= =/imgMarat%20Safin3.jpghttp://tennisinfoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/marat-safin-black-eye.jpg
In this picture he looks more mixed
http://handson.provocateuse.com/images/photos/marat_safin_03.jpg

A member of the Tatar minority in Poland, Selim Chazbijewicz, again very Europid-Gorid looking:

http://www.tolerancja.pl/files/b652e49f3ae84763.jpg
http://d.polskatimes.pl/k/r/1/e6/74/4bb4541040564_k2.jpg

Ildar Ibragimov, pred. Mongoloid Tatar:

http://www.anatolykarpovchessschool.org/images/188_IldarIbragimov72-4x4.7.jpg
http://www.chessbase.com/news/2005/ibragimov01.jpg
http://saintlouischessclub.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2333&g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_ PMT
http://www.chesscamp.us/images/ildar_ibragimov.jpg

Æmeric
Thursday, October 27th, 2011, 10:21 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=109587&stc=1&d=1319750421
Charles Bronson was the son of a Lithuania Tatar. (http://www.celebrity-photos.buy-art-posters-prints.com/Charles-Bronson.html)

I would say the Tatars are basically a Eurasian blend. Tatar is just another name for "Turk". Ethnic Turks (natives of Turkey) are really Tatars with more Medish & Armenid admixture then their cousins in European Russia or Central Asia.

GeistFaust
Thursday, October 27th, 2011, 10:28 PM
I was going to say that guy looks like a blend between Baltic/Russian and Tartar sort of in between.

GeistFaust
Thursday, October 27th, 2011, 10:33 PM
The first collection guy in that picture looks more mixed sort of a North Pontid frame with Turanid influences. The other looks more Central Asian a Turanid/Pamirid hybrid of sorts. The two women look more like Eastern European/Tartar hybrids with the first one looking like a Turanid/Baltid hybrid and the second one looking like a Balto-Cro-Magnon/Turanid hybrid.

ProudAS
Thursday, November 10th, 2011, 08:55 PM
Tatar is a very broad term, if you mean the Volga Tatars (the ones in Tatarstan), they are descended from the Bulgars, and it is disputed whether or not the Bulgars are Turkic or Indo-European. Either way, I definitely see a strong European resemblence in many of them.

Todesritter
Thursday, November 17th, 2011, 08:39 PM
Also it is important to note, going with the interpretation of Tartar originally being a blend of Mongolic & Turkic elements, while the Mongols were in earliest recorded times a somewhat uniform Asiatic racial type, the original Turkic element may have already been to some degree Europid/Aryan.

The ancient Turks themselves were not of a homgenous type, at least by the time of recorded history, and their urheimat (the modern nexus of the greatest concentrated variance of Seperate Turkic languages & peoples) in central asia/modern western China includes many caucausoid if not Europid or even quasi-nordid inhabitants.

The typing of the Celts (at least during the period of recorded history forward) presents a similar problem, as they like the ancient Turks were already a super-ethnicity, though incorporating a much narrower band of what we'd consider north-, west-, ancient-Iberian, and central-Europid predominant elements in the Celtic peoples' case.

Because of the original 'pre-mixture' (pre-Russian era) or variable racial type, one can't make too many assumptions about the Turkic element - for example the the rarer Europid-seeming strain within the Uyghur people of west China may either represent quasi-nordid/Aryan old Tocharian blood adopted into the Turkic super-ethnicity & partially assimilated & homogenized though interbreeding, or a similar strain the mixed, or perhaps they are representative of the original 'Proto-Turkics', before the conquests & mixing began.

Uyghurs (rarer Europid looking examples):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

Uighur girl
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_uyghur_girl.jpg

Ethnic Uighur Chinese Officers
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/fowler218/2698.jpg
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/fowler218/xin__EWM_300605051700203232714.jpg

My reply may seem a bit digressive or overly complex, but it is simply to say, if one assumes Tartars to be part Turkic, the problem of parseing the Tartar racial identity component may be analogous to having no foreknowledge of the nature of the original milk or unmixed coffee and trying to examine the nature of a caffè latte.

With such a complicated situation both the modern known mixing, and the potential variability of the specific Turkic contributing element, it might be more productive taking it on a case by case basis.

I'd imagine a massive genetic sweep of 'Tartar' individuals would result in a an extreme degree of variation.

Ocko
Thursday, November 17th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Russians call the white rootrace Rus. (I guess in the 3rd Reich they were called Aryans.)

As Jews went into Kazarland they took over there. From there they spread their miscenegation program into other white (Rus, Aryan) area to destroy their culture and race. That led to a disintegration of the Rus into many groups/people. those separated groups then where subjected to miscenegation.

the Cossacks, which are still keeping a strong caucasian (white, Rus) appearance were lucky, the Tartars obviously not.

Levashov, a russian physicist and healer (he has many awards in both areas), talks about it.

In most histories, the influence of Jews are omitted, so the history of different people are basically brainwash programs. They do not reflect the real influences behind the scenes. Early documents, especially in the russian sphere but also in the western hemisphere (through christianity, a jew controlled 'religion') have been destroyed so that people over the centuries lost their memory of their great past and were willing to be dumbed down.

That said, I believe that the Tartars once have been an aryan/Rus/caucasian people which has been destroyed.

Alfadur
Thursday, November 17th, 2011, 11:56 PM
I notice Tatars are often confused with Mongols, although they are a Turkic people from Central Asia. The term "Turko-Tatars" is sometimes used as well.
They're closely related to the Uzbeks, Tajiks, and the original Turks (who used to be slant-eyed and much more "Asiatic" before they picked up lots of foreign genes in their conquest of Anatolia and the Balkans).

Tatars are a Central Asian people (with some white admixture). Mongols, on the other hand, are East Asian.

As Jews went into Kazarland they took over there. From there they spread their miscenegation program into other white (Rus, Aryan) area to destroy their culture and race. That led to a disintegration of the Rus into many groups/people. those separated groups then where subjected to miscenegation.
Nope, the Tatars weren't created by Jews. :D They're a people of their own.

The Khazars were a semi-mongoloid Jewish empire from the 7th century, who specialized in slavery. Originally from Asia Minor, the Khazars were the product of race-mixing and Judaization over a process of centuries. (Made up of Semitic, European and Mongoloid elements, the Khazars probably had a close resemblance to modern-day Eurasian mixes). At this time, what we know as "Russia" didn't exist yet. It was a loose union of Ruthenian tribes, ruled by a Viking aristocracy.

I'll quote March of the Titans (which is sometimes an unreliable book, although not in this case) for the remainder of the story:

In 964, Oleg's grandson, Svyatoslav, became ruler of the Rus. A fierce warrior who adhered strictly to his Scandinavian pagan upbringing - even refusing to become a Christian after his mother had converted - Svyatoslav set as his first task the destruction of the Jewish Khazar empire in the south. In 965, the Rus army under Svyatoslav, crashed through the Khazar borders and utterly defeated the Jewish slave-trading empire forever.

The Khazars who survived this great assault were scattered throughout the region, with many moving west and dispersing into Europe. There they re-established Jewish communities and absorbed some Nordic elements (mainly through marrying Jewish women to non-Jewish men), creating the basic stock of today's modern European Jews, known as the Ashkenazim.

To make a long story short; the Khazars were destroyed before the Russians even came into contact with the Tatars. It wasn't until the Late Middle Ages that the Tatars appeared on the scene.

That said, I believe that the Tartars once have been an aryan/Rus/caucasian people which has been destroyed.
Rather the other way around - they were once a Turkic Asian people which were gradually "whitenened" by Russians. Same thing happened to many Amerindians in the USA.

Ocko
Friday, November 18th, 2011, 12:00 AM
Kazars were never destroyed, they are alive and kicking. they do today what they did through the millenia. Same thing, always.

they are the missing piece in history. Because you don't read about them, does not mean they didn't do anything.

their method is always to get influence at the top of a people and then force them to do things against their people.

Missing and non regarding their influence is naivite.

Egrestu
Wednesday, December 7th, 2011, 05:32 AM
That said, I believe that the Tartars once have been an aryan/Rus/caucasian people which has been destroyed.

I believe that you may be correct in this.

I've read in more than one place that the Tartars come from the same people as the Magyars (Hungarians) originally, which were the people that are commonly called 'Aryans'.

And every Hungarian I've ever met has, with very slight exception, blue or green eyes, very light skin, and mostly 'Germanic' features. Though the hair can run a bit darker, though never black.

Catterick
Thursday, April 7th, 2016, 11:57 AM
Tatars might possess more of a Mongoloid strain than the Turks of Anatolia but most of them still look Caucasian from what I've seen. If those tribal confederacies were strictly nations by blood rather than coalitions then all Turks would look more Chinese or Korean, but what happened is people underwent language shifts and assimilated where they conquered.