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Ross
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 09:08 PM
Take a look at CI and FI distribution maps:

http://www4.stormfront.org/whitehistory/mapspart2.htm

It seems that only about 15% of Germany is dolicho-mesocephalic, another 25% is sub-brachycephalic (81-83), and the rest is brachycephalic (in the Southern half).

Also, only one third of Germany is in the zone of FIs 86-89.

What Nordish sub-type has FI less than 86? It's Borreby, but they are not common in Central and Souther Germany.

It seems that Guenther's "Nordische" stands not for "predominatly Nordic" but for "Nordish".

So according to his estimation Gemany is on 50-55% Nordish.

What do you think?

cosmocreator
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 09:39 PM
I think parts of Germany is definitely Alpine. I don't think any anthropologist would doubt that. Nordic supremacist might deny it.

NordicPower
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 10:25 PM
The North is definitely predominantly Nordish, but the south is questionable. But then nobody ever said the south is Nordic.

Here is what racial compact has to say about Germany:

Germany = 25% Borreby (most common in the Rhine and Ruhr valleys and the north), 20% Fälish (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in Baden and Bavaria), 15% Noric, 6% Keltic Nordic (most common in the old Frankish country in the southwest), 5% Anglo-Saxon (most common in the northwest), 5% East Baltic, 5% Dinaric, 4% Hallstatt Nordic = 80% Nordish (60% central and 20% periphery types)

Nordish.com says pretty much the same thing.

Ross
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 10:50 PM
Good, so for areas with low FI we exclude "Borreby" and "Faellish" and "Anglo-Saxon" types, because of geography, and Nordics, Norics and Dinarics (because their FIs are high). It leaves only Alpines (and Sub-Nordics?).

So perhaps Guenther was too optimistic with his 50-55%.

And 20% for Norics and Dinarics are questionable. Where is the line? As a rule, Noric must be blond. I doubt that half of Southern Germany is blond and long faced (they are short faced).

15% for Alpines? Who are those with FIs 83-86 and CIs 81-85+ (80% of Germany)? Some are Faellish/Borreby, but surely not majority...

As I recall, Coon in TRoE was very prudent...

NordicPower
Sunday, December 29th, 2002, 11:39 PM
Southern Germany does not have such homogenous types on average although there are pockets of relatively homogenous subtypes still surviving. You have to remember the the south is the borderline between nordic and the southern races, so you should expect more sub-nordics.

But Falian, Borreby, Anglosaxon and even Hallstatt are present and still concentrated in certain regions in southern Germany.

NordicPower
Monday, December 30th, 2002, 05:47 AM
But what about the FI's? Faulty data perhaps? All the Germans I've ever known have in general had long faces.......

Maybe you should learn some geography before you make such allegations about Germany..........:Bouncing

Of course, had Germany been alpine they would never have produced such great men as Gutenberg, The Grimm brothers, Nietzsche, Georg Simon Ohm , Benz, Bismarck, Charlemagne, Mozart, Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit, Nobel Prize winner Robert Koch, Ernst Mach, Rommel, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Nobel Prize winner Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, Goethe, Wagner, Beethoven or Bach, now would they?

Hellstar
Monday, December 30th, 2002, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by NordicPower88
But what about the FI's? Faulty data perhaps? All the Germans I've ever known have in general had long faces.......

You cant have known that many then.

Of course, had Germany been alpine they would never have produced such great men as Gutenberg, The Grimm brothers, Nietzsche, Georg Simon Ohm , Benz, Bismarck, Charlemagne, Mozart, Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit, Nobel Prize winner Robert Koch, Ernst Mach, Rommel, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Nobel Prize winner Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, Goethe, Wagner, Beethoven or Bach, now would they?
Yea But some of these people were Alpines:rolleyes:

NordicPower
Monday, December 30th, 2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by HELLSTAR
You cant have known that many then.

Yea But some of these people were Alpines:rolleyes:

Yeah, of course! Famous, intelligent and creative people always are....... :rolleyes:

catchmeifyoukhan
Sunday, January 30th, 2005, 12:29 AM
Germany is no such alpine as France. If brown brachicephals are to be found in Germany, they are very diluted with nordics, borrebies, norids, and faelids, and in any case, are much taller than the French brown brachicephals. In France, on the countrary, some regions can be considered as purely alpinids, such as "Auvergne" and the "Midi Pyrenees" (south-center and center west). In other regions, peripheric to the former ones, alpinids are somewhat fairair in complexion and taller, such as in Britanny, Burgondy, Savoie and Lorraine. There we can speak about a "reduced borreby type". For leaving among them, (and for sharing a part of my ancestry), I would say, that we can, like for nordish people, divide the alpins into two branches :

- a "central alpine type" (Auvergne, Midi Pyrennées, northern toscany, and the west of the Po valley in Italy, some parts of Albania, eastern Hungary and techecoslovakia) : which has a brown complexion (but no jet black hairs), brown to green eyes, is very brachicephalic, with a wide face, large and straight nose, short size (but still taller than western mediterraneans), stocky but not robust at all ;
- a "peripheric alpinid type" or "reduced borreby" (Britanny, Burgondy, Franche Comté, the Donau valley from Wurtemberg to slovakia, western hungary) which is light brown or dark blond with hazel to grey eyes, large face, often concave nose, a bit taller, but still much smaller than borrebies, and far less robust.

My impression is that, "central alpinids" are a mixed between mediterraneans and "reduced borrebies", who themselves owe their reduction (when compared to real borrebies) partly to mediterranean admixture.

It is my view, to be debated, that there is a north east / south west continuity between Germany and Spain, where more or less pure borrebies can be found, northern and eastern France and Belgium, where you find the so called "reduced borrebies", south of France where you find the typical "central alpines", northern half of spain, where you find the so called "berids" (stocky western mediterraneans) and southern spain and Portugal, where you find the typical western mediterraneans.

cruhmann
Sunday, January 30th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Yes, but "Central Alpines" do occur in some parts of your "Peripheric Alpine" areas, namely in the inner Black Forest, central Bavaria and Bohemia, among the "Peripheric Alpines". I don't agree that Peripheric Alpines are reduced Borrebies. There is a so-called Walloon Type that occurs in Belgium among Walloons, and some neighboring parts of northern France, west-Central Germany and the southern Netherlands. It is mainly a mix of Borreby and Alpine, in many areas mixed with varying degrees of Keltic Nordic and perhaps other elements. The taller blond and partially blond Alpines of southern Germany, northern and central Switzerland, northern and eastern France, and parts of Saxony and Czechia are Sub-Nordics (Alpine + Hallstatt Nordic and/or Keltic Nordic). they are frequently also mixed with Dinarics. In some, but not most, of these areas a slight Borreby influence is also present. In Bohemia, slight Neo-Danubian and Pontid elements are present as well.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Sunday, January 30th, 2005, 06:18 AM
Coon describes it this way: He says that during the period of Germanic expansion, Nordic types migrated from north to south following the river valleys. He holds up the Reihengraeber type (row-grave from their type of burial) as almost identical to Swedish recruits from the most Nordic areas of Sweden. Coon describes Germany in total as having a heavy Nordic component which overlies older components in that population. All the original, pre-Nordic, Borreby, Alpine, etc. variability described by posters above is certainly present in Germany. So Germany, like most European countries is incredibly complex in the sub-racial sense. This is why Coon spends so much time on the less complex, less trodden, lands of Ireland and Norway. They are simply easier to figure out. And if they could be figured out, then we could use this knowledge to move on to the more centrally located and complex areas of Europe.

catchmeifyoukhan
Monday, January 31st, 2005, 10:24 PM
Yes, but "Central Alpines" do occur in some parts of your "Peripheric Alpine" areas, namely in the inner Black Forest, central Bavaria and Bohemia, among the "Peripheric Alpines". I don't agree that Peripheric Alpines are reduced Borrebies. There is a so-called Walloon Type that occurs in Belgium among Walloons, and some neighboring parts of northern France, west-Central Germany and the southern Netherlands. It is mainly a mix of Borreby and Alpine, in many areas mixed with varying degrees of Keltic Nordic and perhaps other elements. The taller blond and partially blond Alpines of southern Germany, northern and central Switzerland, northern and eastern France, and parts of Saxony and Czechia are Sub-Nordics (Alpine + Hallstatt Nordic and/or Keltic Nordic). they are frequently also mixed with Dinarics. In some, but not most, of these areas a slight Borreby influence is also present. In Bohemia, slight Neo-Danubian and Pontid elements are present as well.
Well even in the Schwartzwald or in the Donau Valley, you will not reach a percentage of 80% alpines such as the one found in the French Massif central. For sure, I recall very well some pretty brunettes with high cheeks in dirndltrachts from these areas, but they were rather remote from the typical French cevenole type. The first description of the alpine type was made by either Broca or de Quatrefage in 1880, and he renamed it "race cevenole", from the Cevennes area, whereas, one of his collegues, assuming that this was the typical type of the ancient Gauls (by contrast with their blond belgian compatriots), renamed it "race celtique" (not to be confounded with Coon's keltic nordic). You're surely right in assuming that a cat is a cat, and that a borreby, is not to be confounded with let's say a "walloon". And I agree with you. But, my main purpose was to emphasise some selective factors such as gracilisation and alpinisation. To me, the alpin type is a "type", but not a stabilised race in the same meaning than the UPs or the classical mediterraneans. Alpins are rather a transitional form between meds and UPs. I'll try to promote a thread on this issue, in the coming days.

cruhmann
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 12:21 AM
Yeah, I agree, but 80% is still significant. In the Schwarzwald, even for such a small area, there is variation. The Wolfach area is said to be the purest Alpine, the southern part has significant Dinaric mix plus some Nordic, and going east, west or north, the Nordic increases, and in the northern Schwarzwald there is a slight Borreby admixture. I'll guess that those pretty girls you saw were Dinaric-Alpine, maybe in some cases with Nordic mix. That kind of mixture seems to produce a beauty that surpasses either the Alpine or Dinaric by itself.

cruhmann
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 12:26 AM
I'm sorry, I misread what you said the first time. You said it doesn't approach 80%, and you are right. I would guess 50-60%, maybe more in a few places, like the Wolfach area example I gave.

catchmeifyoukhan
Tuesday, February 1st, 2005, 09:28 PM
Yeah, I agree, but 80% is still significant. In the Schwarzwald, even for such a small area, there is variation. The Wolfach area is said to be the purest Alpine, the southern part has significant Dinaric mix plus some Nordic, and going east, west or north, the Nordic increases, and in the northern Schwarzwald there is a slight Borreby admixture. I'll guess that those pretty girls you saw were Dinaric-Alpine, maybe in some cases with Nordic mix. That kind of mixture seems to produce a beauty that surpasses either the Alpine or Dinaric by itself.
Hi Cruh ! Do you have some sample pictures of these Dinaric-alpine-nordic mixes ? I am quite interested.

cruhmann
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2005, 12:06 AM
I see them in "Volksmusik Videos" from southern Germany and Austria mainly. Do a search for "Bettina und Patricia" and look at their website. Also the "Isartaler Hexen". They are, I believe, a 7-member all-girl band. 3 or 4 of them are good-looking brunettes or brown-haired. The one blond in the band is not that great.
Gitti und Erika, in their younger days, were nice, and still not bad in their 40s.

cruhmann
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2005, 12:31 AM
Check out these two pages of the following website:
http://www.mergelmusiland.nl/mergelmusiland_fotoalbum_algemeenV.html
mostly from Austria, Switzerland, Suedtirol (German-speaking area in northern Italy) and southern Germany.
http://www.mergelmusiland.nl/mergelmusiland_fotoalbum_algemeenS.html
This one also has some from other parts of Germany and I think, a few from the Netherlands.
There are pictures on the right side of the page, and you can find many more if you click on the individual artist names on the left side of the page.
You can also get whole pages of pictures by clicking on letters of the alphabet near the bottom of the pages.
Some of the pictures don't do justice, but if you click on the name below the pictures it takes you to their website (if they have one) with more pictures.

Check out a lady named Monika Martin. She is a dark blond with the most beautiful blue eyes. And Margitta & ihre Tochter (Margitta and her daughters). The mother has blond hair and hazel eyes, and two daughters are blond-haired, blue-eyed, the third daughter is hazel- or brown-eyed brunette.

cruhmann
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2005, 01:12 AM
http://www.mergelmusiland.nl/mergelmusiland_fotoalbum_algemeenV.html
This one is the better of the two, and more applicable to the types you wanted to see.

Welund
Saturday, June 4th, 2005, 10:01 PM
I think I've noticed most white American brachycephaly coming from Germany.

Is that accurate?

Jenainsubrica
Thursday, July 7th, 2005, 08:11 PM
;)

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2333/razzeuropa6xc.th.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=razzeuropa6xc.jpg)

http://www.tldm.org/News6/Ratzinger.jpg

Hardwig
Friday, July 8th, 2005, 03:25 AM
Nonsense.To think that Germany is Alpine is so mad as say that England is Med due to its Atlantid element.Ridiculous.Who says that never went in Germany.

Night Ocean
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I allways regarded the average german as a nordid-UP blend

distinct_rebel
Friday, September 30th, 2005, 04:37 AM
You cant have known that many then.

Yea But some of these people were Alpines:rolleyes:

Please enlighten me, how many of these people are actually pure Nordid? Only 4% of Germans are found to be Hallstatt Nordic, meaning 96% aren't pure-bred Nords.

Your friend Hitler definitely wasn't Hallstatt Nordic, either. Or Keltic Nordic. Or Anglo-Saxon. In fact, he displayed obvious Alpine and/or Mediterranean characteristics. :-O

fareast
Wednesday, May 17th, 2006, 01:53 AM
I feel Germans are more blond than British.If FI is the only factor to verify nordid,Hitler is a pure Halstatt.