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Japetos
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 08:53 AM
What's your opinion about Theosophy?
Do you belong to Theosophical Society?

Milesian
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 09:52 AM
I'm not really clued up about it but I see adverts at times for Madame Blatvsky's Theosophical Society.

I believe it is a spin off of the Illumati, League of the Just, and other proto- and pseudo-Masonic sects.
Not really my sort of thing, I leave the New Age stuff to others to confuse and confound themselves with ;)

Siegfried
Monday, July 5th, 2004, 11:04 AM
I don't know much about Theosophy, but isn't it related to the New Age movement? I vaguely recall reading that the mission statement of the Theosophical Society included the promotion of interracial brotherhood, equality and other gay stuff I don't believe in.

Oskorei
Monday, August 23rd, 2004, 05:22 PM
I don't know much about Theosophy, but isn't it related to the New Age movement? I vaguely recall reading that the mission statement of the Theosophical Society included the promotion of interracial brotherhood, equality and other gay stuff I don't believe in.
They also believed in the existence of several, evolving, Root-races, of which the Aryan was the most recent, and highest. I also think that they are into Hierarchic thinking.

Many Occult Racialists have relied heavily on Theosophy, like the Ariosophists, Madole of the NRP, and today Varg Vikernes.

Oskorei
Monday, August 29th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Here is a nice summary of the Theosophist theory of "root-races"

The Theosophical Root Races

In the fractal (http://www.kheper.net/cosmos/fractals/fractals.htm) divisions of Theosphy each stage and cycle and plane is divided into seven subdivisions of the same. This goes for the evolutionary cycles of man as much for everything else. If then we take the Earth globe (era) of the present evolutionary or cosmic Round, this is made up of seven great Racio-Spiritual divisions, called "Root Races", which represent teh racpitualtion of the Rounds (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/HBP-Rounds.html) as a whole. These are as follows
1) Polarians (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/HBP-Polarian.html)
2) Hyperboreans
3) Lemurians
4) Atlanteans
5) Aryans
6) 6th Root Race
7) 7th Root Race
The first root race (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/HBP-Polarian.html) was primarily spiritual (Astral/Etheric), and did not leave physical remains. The second (tee Hyperborean) were also non-physical (etheric).
The Lemurians were the first with physical bodies. They were described as a race of three eyed giants and inhabited a "lost continent" of Lemuria which is where the Indian and Pacific oceans now are. Mdern theosophistts identify Lemuria with the actual ancient supercontinent of Gondwanaland (http://www.kheper.net/gaia/geosphere/geography/Gondwana.htm).
The Atlanteans are generally considered to have had great occult and/or technological powers, and inhabited the lost continent of Atlantis, which was destroyed due to their abuse of psychic powers or whatever (the versions of this late 19th/early 20th century myth of hubris and the arrogant Atlanteans, given by Blavatsky, Leadbeater (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Leadbeater.html), Steiner (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Anthroposophy/Steiner.htm), A. Bailey (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Bailey.html), Edgar Cayce, and others all differ in detail). The survivors became the present fifth or Aryan race.
The Atlantean Root Race consisted of the following sub-races
1) Rohmahls
2) Tlavatlis
3) Toltecs
4) First Turanians
5) Original Semites
6) Akkadians
7) Mongolians
It was from the 5th sub-race of Atlanteans, known today as the Semites, that the first Aryans emerged (not the rigid symbolism, the 5th subrace becomes the 5th race), migrating to India and producing what was known in those distant times as the Rama Empire. According to one interpretation they were rivals to the Atlanteans in the leadership of the ante-dilluvian World and it led to a war between the two empires, including ancient nuclear warfare.
The Fifth Root Race - the Aryan
According to Theosophical doctrine we are presently at the fifth stage, referred to as the Aryans. A few words about this term. Ethnologically, the Ayrans (the word means "noble" in Sanskrit) were the original Indo-European nomadic tribesmen, a war-like race of horsemen that moved east to India and West into the near East and Europe. Feminist historians argue that when they got to Europe they destroyed the peace-loving earth-wisdom pagan matriachial societies and replaced them with war-like sky-god worshipping patriarchial societies such as we still have today. It is unfortunate that the term "aryan" was adopted and perverted by Hitler and his intellectual predecessor's fantasies of an "Aryan" Overman, and is still used today by right-wing white power extremists. It has actually been suggested (by Trevor Ravenscroft in his classic work "Spear of Destiny) and by others as well, that Hitler and his inner circle were actually black magicians and perverted the genuine symbols, e.g. turning the swastika (a solar symbol) counter-clockwise (we are asumming here the trailing edges are "blown back" and pointing the opposite direction to the rotation), in order to focus on destruction and negativity (note the swastika on the Theosophical logo spins "clockwise"). Other critical historians and history of occult scholars tend to pooh-pooh or downplay the idea of Hitler having occult knowldge. He did consult astrologers, but that doesnt make him an occultist. Also swatsikas in India, Tibet, and elsewhere are represented counter-clockwise as well as clockwise anyway. Taking the middle way perhaps the best explanation my own opinion here lies midway between the believers and the critics. In any case it should be understood that Aryan when used in the Theosophical context has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler or Nazism, and the sort of racist ideology espoused by white power etc woudl be abhorrant to every Theosophist.
This is not to say that the early orthodox and heterodox theosophists like Blavatsky, Leadbeater (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Leadbeater.html), and Steiner (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Anthroposophy/Steiner.htm) were totally free of racism. In fact their writing are just full of the entrenched white colonial european ethnocentricism that dominated the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The current Root Race, the apex of human evolution, is still European. At least one passage in Blavatsy's writings point at anti-semitism (the Jews are referred to as an unatural bridge between the 4th and 5th races). Tribal peoples are referred to by Leadbeater (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Leadbeater.html) and Steiner (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Anthroposophy/Steiner.htm) as "the savage", the lowest rung on the human evolutionary ladder, and Leadbeater (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/Leadbeater.html) goes into some detail comparing the aura of the "savage" with that of the civilised (European) man. According to Gregory Tillet in his excellent biography (Elder Brother), Leadbeater was also a mild racist who hated being in India where the Theosophical headqurters were (the Adyar Branch in Madras). Interestingly, Steiner rejected the term Aryan for the fifth Root Race, prefering the clumsy "Post-Atlantic". Nevertheless his writings reflect eurocentric prejhudice every but as much as his predecessors.
The constituent "sub-races" of the Aryan (5th or present) race are as follows
1) Hindus
2) Sumerians
3) Egyptians
4) Hellenes
5) Europeans
6) Nova men
7) ?
These exact same stages were used by Rudolph Steiner (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Anthroposophy/Steiner.htm) as the seven culture periods of the Post-Atlantic (current) era.

The 6th race constitute a new coming racial expression, which will demonstrate a group consciousness and telepathic rapport, high intelligence and intuitive skills, combined with numerous other qualities. This formualtion, very innovative and forward looking when it first appeared, now seems very dated, as the future of nanotech (http://www.kheper.net/topics/nanotech/nanotech.htm), cyborgs, genetic engineering, transhumanism and the Singularity (http://www.kheper.net/topics/singularity/index.htm) seems like drastically overtaking any theosophical version of a coming race.


http://www.kheper.net/topics/Theosophy/root_races.html

Nick the Pilot
Monday, February 19th, 2007, 01:58 AM
Hi everybody!

Is anybody here still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a member of Theosophy for many years, and would like to hear other people's take on Theosophy.

Fortis_in_Arduis
Monday, February 19th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Yeah! My mum is into Steiner, and wanted to send me to a Steiner school.

Steiner said that the the parsnip was the new potato. I am anti-potato too, and I don't like potato people either. Do you want to take it from there? :D

Moody
Monday, February 19th, 2007, 01:12 PM
Steiner

Steiner's movement was Anthroposophy, not Theosophy, however.

The Anthroposophists certainly have some interesting ideas, including notions of Europe's spiritual evolution through history, for example.
Of course Steiner was influenced by Theosophy which came out of the 19th century

I wouldn't describe Theosophy as 'New Age' as it clearly pre-dates all that, and was actually part of the Occult revival.

It certainly had a racial in outlook as has been shown above, although these elements may be toned down today.

There is a Theosophical society in London too, and they give lectures on a regular basis.

I suppose there is a general resistance today towards systems of thought, like Theosophy, which are all-encompassing - metaphysical systems, if you like.
They are hard to accept as we tend to be cynical about such things and are far more fragmented in our thinking.

I have long had Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine', but have found that - while I can read some of it - it never really grabs me for long enough, certainly not for the length of time needed to make a committment to it.
This probably says more about me than about Theosophy, however.

Nick the Pilot
Monday, February 19th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Fortis,

Yes, Steiner was a proponent of Anthroposophy, not Theosophy. Anthroposophy was an off-shoot of Theosophy, and many of the concepts are the same.

Moody,

Yes, European culture's spiritual evolution, and the spiritual evolution of the entire human race is a key Theosophical concept.

You said,

"I wouldn't describe Theosophy as 'New Age' as it clearly pre-dates all that, and was actually part of the Occult revival."

--> Imagine, if you will, the religious scene in New York City in 1875. Reincarnation and karma were unheard of, religions like Buddhism and Hinduism were virtually unknown, and “New Age” bookstores had yet to appear. Into the middle of all this, Madame Blavatsky brought her new and revolutionary ideas.

Today, karma and reincarnation are familiar words to most Americans. Not so in 1875. Theosophy takes credit for popularizing the ideas of karma and reincarnation in the western world.

On the "occult" topic, I wonder if you are usijng the word occult as it was meant in Blavatsky's books, or as it is used today. Occult today means witchcraft. Not so in Blavatsky's books of the 1800's. Then, she meant concepts that were unknown to the average person, such as karma, reincarnation, pantheism as a central Christian teaching, etc.

On the "New Age" topic, I give Blavatsky credit for being one of the most important people for starting the entire New Age movement. We owe her a great debt for starting it all, way back then.

"It certainly had a racial in outlook as has been shown above, although these elements may be toned down today."

--> I would still describe Theosophy as radical, although, as you say, it has become more accepted since the 1800's. The mere fact that words like karma and reincarnation have become everyday words shows that progress is being made.

"I suppose there is a general resistance today towards systems of thought, like Theosophy, which are all-encompassing - metaphysical systems, if you like."

--> People want religion that is easy, and does not make them think too much. As a matter of fact, I think that is the general trend in religion today, the simplifying of religion. Theosophy, however, goes in the exact opposite direction. Dogmatic religions actually try to quash questioning and open-thinking. Theosophy is dedicated to questioning and open-thinking.

"There is a Theosophical society in London too, and they give lectures on a regular basis."

http://www.theosophical-society.org.uk/

"They are hard to accept as we tend to be cynical about such things and are far more fragmented in our thinking."

--> Blavatsky predicted that Theosophy would not be popular, and she was right.

"I have long had Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine', but have found that - while I can read some of it - it never really grabs me for long enough...."

--> The Secret Doctrine is a very difficult book to read. A person cannot just sit down and read it — a great deal of pre-study is required. I have prepared a study guide, if you are interested.

Moody
Tuesday, February 20th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Imagine, if you will, the religious scene in New York City in 1875. Reincarnation and karma were unheard of, religions like Buddhism and Hinduism were virtually unknown, and “New Age” bookstores had yet to appear. Into the middle of all this, Madame Blavatsky brought her new and revolutionary ideas.

Although such eastern ideas had already appeared in the philosophy of Schopenhauer [1788-1860] - an important cultural influence, not least on Wagner and Nietzsche.

Today, karma and reincarnation are familiar words to most Americans. Not so in 1875. Theosophy takes credit for popularizing the ideas of karma and reincarnation in the western world.

I would agree there, although what of the controversy which suggested that Blavastky had palgiarised many of her ideas?
Also, Vivekananda toured the USA in the late 19th century and had quite an impact.

On the "occult" topic, I wonder if you are using the word occult as it was meant in Blavatsky's books, or as it is used today.

The former; as has already been mentioned, Theosophy had an important influence on people like von List, Lanz and Crowley.

The Secret Doctrine is a very difficult book to read. A person cannot just sit down and read it — a great deal of pre-study is required. I have prepared a study guide, if you are interested.

I'm certainly interested.

Aupmanyav
Tuesday, February 20th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Those interested in Theosophy, Brahmo Samaj, Integral Yoga of Aurobindo in India, or Radical Humanism, were always a small minority. The number has further decreased from that time.

Nick the Pilot
Tuesday, February 20th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Aupmanyav,

I suppose a decrease in the number of students is unfortunate, but not surprising. But we strive for quality, not quantity.

Moody,

You said,

"...such eastern ideas had already appeared...."

--> Correct. This is why I say Blavatsky popularized the ideas, without actually introducing them.

"...what of the controversy which suggested that Blavastky had palgarised many of her ideas?"

--> I feel this is due to the huge amount of slandering Blavatsky endured, slander coming from Chrisitan church leaders. I believe Blavatsky is the most slandered person of all time. She attacked the church establishment, and they attacked back with their slander.

The word "occult" definitely seems to have a different meaning and usage than in the 1800's. I am sure Blavatsky would use a different word were she to write her books today.

Here is a study guide. Please note this is advanced study, so it may be difficult reading.

http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/stanzas.htm

Lyfing
Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 06:16 PM
I find theosophy to be pretty interesting..

I particularly like The Masks of Odin at..
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/odin/odin-hp.htm

..and The Theosophy of the Far North at..
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ancientlandmarks/TheosophyOfTheFarNorth.html

I've not found much along these lines ( other than what I've put together myself.. ) so..umm.."Does anyone know where I can find some more..??"

-Lyfing

Moody
Saturday, February 24th, 2007, 10:46 AM
I've not found much along these lines ( other than what I've put together myself.. ) so..umm.."Does anyone know where I can find some more..??"


http://www.erbzine.com/mag11/sword05.jpg
Helena Blavatsky



Interesting piece from a Theosophical source;

THOR


I am the God Thor,
I am the War God,
I am the Thunderer!
Here in my Northland.
My fastness and fortress,
Reign I forever!

Here amid icebergs
Rule I the nations;
This is my hammer,
Mjöllnir the mighty;
Giants and sorcerers
Cannot withstand it!

LONGFELLOW

Lightning darted in jagged steps across the sky. Thunder began to roll in the distance and the waves dashed in wild fury upon the cliffs of the fjord. A yeoman hurried into his slate-roofed house shouting orders to his family inside, bidding them to act smart and put things in order before Thor arrived to awaken Mother Jörgyn. He told his wife to put the jar of mead on the table so that the god would have something to drink, and his two sons were admonished to rub the plowshares until they shone, for Hlorridi (the Heat-Bringer) was coming early and it would be a fruitful year. Bustling about at these tasks and absorbed in thinking of Thor, they were yet unprepared for the abrupt violence of his arrival. Wingthor drove from the west in all his fury. He struck the ridge of the roof with his hammer Mjöllnir, which splintered its supporting pillar and penetrated a hundred miles below the clay floor. A cloud of sulphurous vapour seeped up into what was left of the room, and was met by the stupefied gaze of the family. But the yeoman shook off his paralysis and rose from his stone bench, saying, "Wingthor has been gracious to us, and now has gone on to fight against the Frost and Rock Giants. Do ye not hear the blows of his hammer, the howls of the monsters in their caverns, and the crashing of their stone heads as though they were nothing but oatmeal dumplings? But to us he has given rain, which even now is falling heavily, rain that will melt away the snow and prepare the soil to receive the seed we shall later sow. The tiny sprouts will grow rapidly, and grass and herbs and the green leek will reward us for our industry. Preserve the golden ears of corn for us, O Thor, until the harvest time."

In his temple at Thrandheim, Thor's celestial progress was depicted in a powerfully anthropomorphized image showing the thundering deity adorned in gold and silver. He "was arranged to sit in a chariot, he was very splendid. There were goats, two of them, harnessed in front of him, very well wrought. Both car and goats ran on wheels. The rope round the horns of the goats was of twisted silver, and the whole was worked with extremely fine craftsmanship." This description from the Flateyjarbók continues to explain how the rope could be manipulated to produce movement and a crashing and grinding noise resembling thunder rolling across the heavens. Just as his presence was asserted in dramatic and impending natural phenomena, so too the dynamism of Thor was ritually manufactured in his worship. He was closely felt and his cult was the most widespread of all the gods and goddesses of the Nordic pantheon. Known as Donar to the ancient German tribes and Thor throughout Scandinavia, his sacred day was dies Iovis (associated with Jupiter) or Thor's-day, considered to be a holy day in Europe and the North well into the Christian era, and also observed as the day upon which the General Assembly of Iceland was opened for many centuries thereafter.

The cult of Thor was still flourishing amongst the eleventh-century Vikings in Dublin. With the ascendancy of Christianity, it was Thor who was thought to be the chief adversary of Christ.....

For full article see link;Thor (http://www.theosophytrust.org/tlodocs/articlesSymbol.php?d=Thor-0488.htm&p=22)

Info on Icelandic Theosophical section, link;
A Short History of the Icelandic Section (http://www.gudspekifelagid.is/english/icelandic.section.htm)

From a hostile but revealing review article;

... Insisting that the Aryans descended from the polar "Hyperboreans" (who had allegedly inhabited first the lost Continent of Atlantis and then the Nordic Thule, ("aryosophic" and supposedly Runic notions, inherited from the Theosophy of Elena Blavatska), Wirth maintained that the primordial wisdom from Atlantis had been preserved (by the "Mahatmas") in Buddhist Tibet. Such Theosophy was combined even further with Nordic mythology from the Edda (and with "Runic wisdom") by Rudolf Gorsleben (1883-1930) - to the effect that in Tibet was to have been preserved something of the occult abilities to dominate nature, abilities once in the possession of the Arctic "primordial race" (Urrasse) of Aryans...

Link to full article;
Hitler, Buddha, Krishna (http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/H-B-K/bookreview.en.htm)

http://www.homeoint.org/morrell/images/steine02.jpg
Rudolf Steiner


On Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy;

....Steiner, who lived from 1861 until 1925, believed in the existence of a spiritual world that is accessible to pure thought only through the highest faculties of mental knowledge. Long ago, he held, humans possessed the ability to fully take part in the spirit world, but they had lost the ability due to an undue attachment to the material world. Anthroposophy, which Steiner called a "spiritual science," was designed to train people to rise above the material and once again focus on the spiritual world.

According to Steiner, people existed on Earth since the creation of the planet. Humans, he taught, began as spirit forms and progressed through various stages to reach today's form. Humanity, Steiner said, is currently living in the Post-Atlantis Period, which began with the gradual sinking of Atlantis in 7227 B.C. (According to legend, Atlantis was an island-continent that sank into the Atlantic Ocean many ages ago.) The Post-Atlantis Period is divided into seven epochs, the current one being the European-American Epoch, which will last until the year 3573. After that, humans will regain the clairvoyant powers they allegedly possessed prior to the time of the ancient Greeks.

In 1902, Steiner was elected to the leadership of the German Theosophical Society, a movement founded in 1873 by spiritualist leader Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. Blavatsky believed that humankind was moving through a series of stages that would result in the creation of purely spiritual beings. The key to advancement, she believed, was found in the "ancient wisdom" of early cultures such as the Egyptians and Greeks. Such wisdom was often said to be "occult" or hidden.

Link to full article;
Anthroposophy (http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Anthroposophy_AU.html)

Another hostile view, this time of Anthroposophy, but revealing nonetheless;


In June 1910 Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy, began a speaking tour of Norway with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in Oslo. The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology." In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the "Nordic spirit." The "national souls" of Northern and Central Europe were, Steiner explained, components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race," the world's most spiritually advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of the highest of five historical "root races." This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was naturally the "Aryan race."[1]

If this peculiar cosmology sounds eerily similar to the teutonic myths of Himmler and Hitler, the resemblance is no accident. Anthroposophy and National Socialism both have deep roots in the confluence of nationalism, right-wing populism, proto-environmentalist romanticism and esoteric spiritualism that characterized much of German and Austrian culture at the end of the nineteenth century. But the connection between Steiner's racially stratified pseudo-religion and the rise of the Nazis goes beyond mere philosophical parallels. Anthroposophy had a powerful practical influence on the so-called "green wing" of German fascism. Moreover, the actual politics of Steiner and his followers have consistently displayed a profoundly reactionary streak...

Link to full article;
Anthroposophy and Ecofascism (http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Staudenmaier.html)

Nick the Pilot
Saturday, February 24th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Lyfing,

There are several references to Norse Mythology in The Secret Doctrine.

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm

It is amazing how all of these references show that Norse, Buddhist, and Christian mythologies all come from the same source.

Here are some quotes.

“The adoption by the Latin Church of such symbols as the water, fire, sun, moon and stars, and a good many other things, is simply a continuation by the early Christians of the old worship of Pagan nations. Thus Odin got his wisdom, power, and knowledge, by sitting at the feet of Mimir, the thrice-wise Jotun, who passed his life by the fountain of primeval Wisdom, the crystalline waters of which increased his knowledge daily. Mimir "drew the highest knowledge from the fountain, because the world was born of water; hence primeval wisdom was to be found in that mysterious element" ("Asgard and the Gods," 86). The eye which Odin had to pledge to acquire that knowledge may be "the Sun, which enlightens and penetrates all things; his other eye being the moon, whose reflection gazes out of the deep, and which at last, when setting, sinks into the Ocean." (Ibid.) But it is something more, besides this. Loki, the fire-god, is said to have hidden in the water, as well as in the moon, the light-giver, whose reflection he found therein; and this belief that the fire finds refuge in the water was not limited to the old Scandinavians. It was shared by all nations and was finally taken up by the early Christians, who symbolized the Holy Ghost under the shape of Fire, "cloven tongues like as fire" -- the breath of the Father-SUN. This "Fire" descends also into the Water or the Sea: Mar, Mary. The dove was the symbol of the Soul with several nations, it was sacred to Venus, the goddess born from the sea-foam, and it became later the symbol of the Christian Anima Mundi, or the Holy Spirit.”
The Secret Doctrine vol I 402-403

“In the Norse cosmogony it is ... "In the beginning was a great abyss (Chaos), neither day nor night existed; the abyss was Ginnungagap, the yawning gulf, without beginning, without end. ALL FATHER, the Uncreated, the Unseen, dwelt in the depth of the 'Abyss' (SPACE) and willed, and what was willed came into being." (See "Asgard and the Gods.") As in the Hindu cosmogony, the evolution of the universe is divided into two acts: called in India the Prakriti and Padma Creations. Before the warm rays pouring from the "Home of Brightness" awake life in the Great Waters of Space, the Elements of the first creation come into view, and from them is formed the Giant Ymir (also Orgelmir) -- primordial matter differentiated from Chaos (literally seething clay). Then comes the cow Audumla, the nourisher,* from whom is born Buri (the Producer) who, by Bestla, the daughter of the "Frost-Giants" (the sons of Ymir) had three sons, Odin, Willi and We, or "Spirit," "Will," and "Holiness." (Compare the Genesis of the Primordial Races, in this work.) This was when Darkness still reigned throughout Space, when the Ases, the creative Powers (Dhyan Chohans) were not yet evolved, and the Yggdrasil, the tree of the universe of Time and of Life, had not yet grown, and there was, as yet, no Walhalla, or Hall of Heroes. The Scandinavian legends of creation, of our earth and world, begin with time and human life. All that precedes it is for them "Darkness," wherein All-Father, the cause of all, dwells. As observed by the editor of "Asgard and the Gods," though these legends have in them the idea of that ALL-FATHER, the original cause of all, "he is scarcely more than mentioned in the poems," not because, as he thinks, before the preaching of the gospel, the idea "could not rise to distinct conceptions of the Eternal," but on account of its great esoteric character. Therefore, all the creative gods, or personal Deities, begin at the secondary stage of Cosmic evolution. Zeus is born in, and out of Kronos -- Time. So is Brahma the production and emanation of Kala, "eternity and time," Kala being one of the names of Vishnu. Hence we find Odin, the father of the gods and of the Ases, as Brahma is the father of the gods and of the Asuras, and hence also the androgyne character of all the chief creative gods, from the second MONAD of the Greeks down to the Sephiroth Adam Kadmon, the Brahma or Prajapati-Vach of the Vedas, and the androgyne of Plato, which is but another version of the Indian symbol.”
The Secret Doctrine vol I 427

“Odin's black ravens fluttered around the Goddess Saga and "whispered to her of the past and of the future." What is the real meaning of all those black birds? They are all connected with the primeval wisdom, which flows out of the pre-cosmic Source of all....”
The Secret Doctrine vol I 443

“In the Norse Legends, one recognizes in Asgard, the habitat of the gods, as also in the Ases themselves, the same mystical loci and personifications woven into the popular "myths," as in our Secret Doctrine; and we find them in the Vedas, the Puranas, the Mazdean Scriptures and the Kabala. The Ases of Scandinavia, the rulers of the world which preceded ours, whose name means literally the "pillars of the world," its "supports," are thus identical with the Greek Cosmocratores, the "Seven Workmen or Rectors" of Pymander, the seven Rishis and Pitris of India, the seven Chaldean gods and seven evil spirits, the seven Kabalistic Sephiroth synthesised by the upper triad, and even the seven Planetary Spirits of the Christian mystics. The Ases create the earth, the seas, the sky and the clouds, the whole visible world, from the remains of the slain giant Ymir; but they do not create MAN, but only his form from the Ask or ash-tree. It is Odin who endows him with life and soul, after Lodur had given him blood and bones, and finally it is Honir who furnishes him with his intellect (manas) and with his conscious senses. The Norse Ask, the Hesiodic Ash-tree, whence issued the men of the generation of bronze, the Third Root-Race, and the Tzite tree of the Popol-Vuh, out of which the Mexican third race of men was created, are all one. This may be plainly seen by any reader. But the Occult reason why the Norse Yggdrasil, the Hindu Aswatha, the Gogard, the Hellenic tree of life, and the Tibetan Zampun, are one with the Kabalistic Sephirothal Tree, and even with the Holy Tree made by Ahura Mazda, and the Tree of Eden -- who among the western scholars can tell?”
The Secret Doctrine vol II 97

“How prophetic are the songs of the three Norse Goddesses, to whom the ravens of Odin whisper of the past and the future, as they flutter around in their abode of crystal beneath the flowing river. The songs are all written down in the "Scrolls of Wisdom," of which many are lost but some still remain: and they repeat in poetical allegory the teachings of the archaic ages. To summarise from Dr. Wagner's "Asgard and the Gods," the "renewal of the world," which is a prophecy about the seventh Race of our Round told in the past tense. The Miolnir had done its duty in this Round, and:-- ". . . . on the field of Ida, the field of resurrection (for the Fifth Round), the sons of the highest gods assembled, and in them their fathers rose again (the Egos of all their past incarnations). They talked of the Past and the Present, and remembered the wisdom and prophecies of their ancestor which had all been fulfilled. Near them, but unseen of them, was the strong, the mighty One, who rules all things. . . . and ordains the eternal laws that govern the world. They all knew he was there, they felt his presence and his power, but were ignorant of his name. At his command the new Earth rose out of the Waters of Space. To the South above the Field of Ida, he made another heaven called Audlang, and further off, a third, Widblain. Over Gimil's cave, a wondrous palace was erected, covered with gold and shining bright in the sun." These are the three gradually ascending planets of our "Chain." There the Gods were enthroned, as they used to be. . . . From Gimil's heights (the seventh planet or globe, the highest and the purest), they looked down upon the happy descendants of LIF and LIFTHRASIR (the coming Adam and Eve of purified humanity), and signed to them to CLIMB up higher, to rise in knowledge and wisdom, step by step, from one "heaven to another," until they were at last fit to be united to the Gods in the house of All-Father (p. 305). He who knows the doctrines of Esoteric Budhism, (or Wisdom), though so imperfectly sketched hitherto, will see clearly the allegory contained in the above.”
The Secret Doctrine vol II 100

“...it may be said that even in the Norse legends, in the Sacred Scrolls of the goddess Saga, we find Loki, the brother by blood of Odin (as Typhon, Ahriman, and others are brothers of Osiris and Ormazd), becoming evil only later, when he has mixed too long with humanity. Like all other fire or light gods -- fire burning and destroying as well as warming and giving life -- he ended by being accepted in the destructive sense of "fire." The name Loki, we learn ("Asgard and the Gods," p. 250), has been derived from the old word "liechan," to enlighten. It has, therefore, the same origin as the Latin "lux, light." Hence Loki is identical with Lucifer (light-bringer). This title, given to the Prince of Darkness, is very suggestive and is a vindication in itself against theological slander. But Loki is still more closely related to Prometheus, as he is shown chained to a sharp rock, while Lucifer, identified with Satan, was chained down in hell; a circumstance, however, which prevented neither of them from acting in all freedom on Earth, if we accept the theological paradox in its fulness. Loki is a beneficent, generous and powerful god in the beginning of times, and the principle of good, not of evil, in early Scandinavian theogony.”
The Secret Doctrine vol II 283 note

“...Odin, or the god Woden, the highest god in the German and Scandinavian mythology, is one of these thirty-five Buddhas; one of the earliest, indeed, for the continent to which he and his race belonged, is also one of the earliest. So early, in truth, that in the days when tropical nature was to be found, where now lie eternal unthawing snows, one could cross almost by dry land from Norway via Iceland and Greenland, to the lands that at present surround Hudson's Bay.... This may account for the similarity of the artificial mounds in the U. S. of America, and the tumuli in Norway. It is this identity that led some American archaeologists to suggest that Norwegian mariners had discovered America some one thousand years ago. (Vide Holmboe's Traces de Bouddhisme en Norvege, p. 23). There is no doubt that America is that "far distant land into which pious men and heavy storms had transferred the sacred doctrine," as a Chinese writer suggested by his description to Neumann. But neither Professor Holmboe, of Stockholm, nor the American archaeologists, have guessed the right age of the mounds, or the tumuli. The fact that Norwegians may have re-discovered the land that their long-forgotten forefathers believed to have perished in the general submersion, does not conflict with that other fact that the Secret Doctrine of the land which was the cradle of physical man, and of the Fifth Race, had found its way into the so-called New World ages and ages before the "Sacred Doctrine" of Buddhism.”
The Secret Doctrine vol II 423-424 and note

Lyfing
Monday, February 26th, 2007, 03:25 PM
Each man is a soul, but not each animal or each plant. Man, as a soul, can manifest through only one body at a time in the physical world, whereas one animal soul manifests simultaneously through a number of animal bodies, one plant soul through a number of separate plants. A lion, for example, is not a permanently separate entity in the same way as a man is. When the man dies--that is, when he as a soul lays aside his physical body--he remains himself exactly as he was before, an entity separate from all other entities. When the lion dies, that which has been the separate soul of him is poured back into the mass from which it came--a mass which is at the same time providing the souls for many other lions. To such a mass we give the name of "group-soul".

To such a group-soul is attached a considerable number of lion bodies--let us say a hundred. Each of those bodies while it lives has its hundredth part of the group-soul attached to it, and for the time being this is apparently quite separate, so that the lion is as much an individual during his physical life as the man; but he is not a permanent individual. When he dies the soul of him flows back into the group-soul to which it belongs, and that identical lion-soul cannot be separated again from the group.

A useful analogy may help comprehension. Imagine the group-soul to be represented by the water in a bucket, and the hundred lion bodies by a hundred tumblers. As each tumbler is dipped into the bucket it takes out from it a tumblerful of water (the separate soul). That water for the time being takes the shape of the vehicle which it fills, "and is temporarily separate from the water which remains in the bucket, and from the water in the other tumblers.

Now put into each of the hundred tumblers some kind of colouring matter or some kind of flavouring. That will represent the qualities developed by its experiences in the separate soul of the lion during its lifetime. Pour back the water from the tumbler into the bucket; that represents the death of the lion. The colouring matter or the flavouring will be distributed through the whole of the water in the bucket, but will be a much fainter colouring, a much less pronounced flavour when thus distributed than it was when confined in one tumbler. The qualities developed by the experience of one lion attached to that group-soul are therefore shared by the entire group-soul, but in a much lower degree.

We may take out another tumblerful of water from that bucket, but we can never again get exactly the same tumblerful after it has once been mingled with the rest. Every tumblerful taken from that bucket in the future will contain some traces of the colouring or flavouring put into each tumbler whose contents have been returned to the bucket. Just so the qualities developed by the experience of a single lion will become the common property of all lions who are in the future to be born from that group-soul, though in a lesser degree than that in which they existed in the individual lion who developed them.

That is the explanation of inherited instincts; that is why the duckling which has been hatched by a hen takes to the water instantly without needing to be shown how to swim; why the chicken just out of its shell will cower at the shadow of a hawk; why a bird which has been artificially hatched, and has never seen a nest, nevertheless knows how to make one, and makes it according to the traditions of its kind.

Lower down in the scale of animal life enormous numbers of bodies are attached to a single group-soul--countless millions, for example, in the case of some of the smaller insects; but as we rise in the animal kingdom the number of bodies attached to a single group-soul becomes smaller and smaller, and therefore the differences between individuals become greater.

Thus the group-souls gradually break up. Returning to the symbol of the bucket, as tumbler after tumbler of water is withdrawn from it, tinted with some sort of colouring matter and returned to it, the whole bucketful of water gradually becomes richer in colour. Suppose that by imperceptible degrees a kind of vertical film forms itself across the centre of the bucket, and gradually solidifies itself into a division, so that we have now a right half and a left half to the bucket, and each tumblerful of water which is taken out is returned always to the same section from which it came.

Then presently a difference will be set up, and the liquid in one half of the bucket will no longer be the same as that in the other. We have then practically two buckets, and when this stage is reached in a group-soul it splits into two, as a cell separates by fission. In this way, as the experience grows ever richer, the group-souls grow smaller but more numerous, until at the highest point we arrive at man with his single individual soul, which no longer returns into a group, but remains always separate.

Textbook of Theosophy at http://www.sacred-texts.com/the/tot/chap04.htm

I like the way this sounds "as it" makes sense of Theosophy's notion that one's experiences are unique to themselves ( or at least the evolution of their own individual unique soul ) and that them/their "acquired characteristics" "reimbody" after basking in love in a form "attractively resonating" to past (lives) experiences. But, "what if" that "soul" is the "genome" and the "racial memory" reimbodies after basking in love with ones mate into "a form "attractively resonating" to past (lives) experiences." It seems to me that if "our soul" is to survive at all it is to be by reproducing the "acquired characteristics" in the "genome" for the next generation.

I’d really like to hear some ideas on this..?? ( Doesn’t there need to be some DNA to go from Root-Race to Root-Race..??.. Is it “spontaneous combustion“ causing “sweat“ (like Ymir).??…or Why did Bor mate with Bestla..?? )….

-Lyfing

Nick the Pilot
Tuesday, February 27th, 2007, 06:09 PM
Lyfing,

Acdording to Theosophy, three factors work together to make a human being.

* DNA-genomes
* one's environment
* karma

(The first two make up the nature-nuture debate.)

You said,

"...acquired characteristics ... reimbody ... after basking in love in a form "attractively resonating" to past (lives) experiences.

--> Yes, they do, as far as kaeman will let them.

"But, "what if" that "soul" is the "genome" and the "racial memory" reimbodies after basking in love with ones mate into "a form "attractively resonating" to past (lives) experiences."

--> It does, within the limitation of karma.

"It seems to me that if "our soul" is to survive at all it is to be by reproducing the "acquired characteristics" in the "genome" for the next generation."

--> I am not sure what you mean by this.

"Doesn’t there need to be some DNA to go from Root-Race to Root-Race..?"

--> There is. (The being who initially forms a (Root) Race is called a Manu. When a new race is being if formed, the Manu take the best DNA he can find, and manipulates into the form he wants (but he can only do as much manipulating as the DNA allows.)

Lyfing
Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 03:32 PM
"It seems to me that if "our soul" is to survive at all it is to be by reproducing the "acquired characteristics" in the "genome" for the next generation."

--> I am not sure what you mean by this.

The separation of the sexes occured during the Lemurian Root-Race.

“...the men of the Third Race became physiologically and physically ready ... when they had separated into sexes.” (SD vol II p. 228)

The Third Race, then, can be divided into three periods.

* Early Period (Sweat-Born, the same process as the Second Race)
* Middle Period (Egg-Born)
* Last Period (Sex-Born, the same process as today)

“Atlanteans were developed from a nucleus of Northern Lemurian Third Race Men, centred, roughly speaking, toward a point of land in what is now the mid-Atlantic Ocean. Their continent was formed by the coalescence of many islands and peninsulas which were upheaved in the ordinary course of time and became ultimately the true home of the great Race known as the Atlanteans.” (SD vol II pp. 334)

“Thus the first Atlantean races, born on the Lemurian Continent, separated from their earliest tribes into the righteous and the unrighteous; into those who worshipped the one unseen Spirit of Nature, the ray of which man feels within himself - or the Pantheists, and those who offered fanatical worship to the Spirits of the Earth, the dark Cosmic, anthropomorphic Powers, with whom they made alliance.” (SD vol II p. 273)

“Noah's Deluge is astronomical and allegorical, but it is not mythical, for the story is based upon the same archaic tradition of men — or rather of nations — which were saved during the cataclysms, in canoes, arks, and ships. No one would presume to say that the Chaldean Xisuthrus, the Hindu Vaivasvata, the Chinese Peirun — the ‘beloved of the gods,’ who rescued him from the flood in a canoe — or the Swedish Belgamer, for whom the gods did the same in the north, are all identical as a personage. But their legends have all sprung from the catastrophe which involved both the continent and the island of Atlantis.” (SD vol II p. 774)

“Noah [symbolizes] both the Root-Manu and the Seed-Manu, or the Power which developed the planetary chain, and our earth, and the Seed Race (the Fifth) which was saved while the last sub-races of the Fourth perished — Vaivasvata Manu — the number Seven will be seen to recur at every step. It is he (Noah), who represents, as Jehovah's permutation, the septenary Host of the Elohim, and is thus the Father or Creator (the Preserver) of all animal life. Hence verses 2 and 3 of chapter vii. of Genesis, ‘Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male (3), and the female (4); of fowls also of the air by sevens,’ etc., etc., followed by all the sevening of days and the rest.” (SD vol II pp. 597-598)

“Vaivasvata Manu ... saves the Fifth Race during the destruction of the last Atlanteans, the remnants that perished 850,000 years ago, after which there was no great submersion until the day of Plato’s Atlantis, or Poseidonis, known to the Egyptians only because it happened in such relatively recent times.” (SD vol II pp. 313-314)

http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/stanzas.htm .. "thanks..by the way.."


I mean something like..As we have "descended" into matter it has become all the more important. That now maybe we are totally bound by "the laws of matter" and "observations" such as those of Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck and thus to "take part in the ascension" the "seed must be saved"..It even seems that society ( which has been materializing to its apex into this Root-Race) is set up in every way to see to it that this is so..??

..the Manu take the best DNA he can find, and manipulates into the form he wants (but he can only do as much manipulating as the DNA allows.)

..any ideas

-Lyfing

Nick the Pilot
Wednesday, February 28th, 2007, 08:00 PM
Lyfing,

You said,

"That now maybe we are totally bound by 'the laws of matter' ... the 'seed must be saved'."

--> I agree, but the seed must be clearly identified. It is the spiritual side of us that has grown, due to experiences in the physical world.

"... society ... is set up ... to see to it that this is so..?"

--> Yes. When our society first appeared, certainly it appeared for the purposes of giving us experiences that could be taken to a higher level. Unfortunately, we do not always take advatange of the situation. Rather, we sometimes create experiences that cannot be taken to a higher level.

Aupmanyav
Friday, March 2nd, 2007, 01:11 AM
Educated Indians are too analytical to believe in anything so fuzzy.

Lyfing
Tuesday, August 5th, 2008, 02:26 AM
I was wondering if anyone has any take on Theosophy, particularly as it has been "interpreted" through northern lore..?

Two books that do this are..

Irminsul (http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/irminsul.shtml)

The Masks of Odin (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/odin/odin-hp.htm)

I think Rydberg refuted many of their notions in his works..

Later,
-Lyfing

Galloglaich
Tuesday, August 5th, 2008, 03:22 AM
I still have a copy of Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine on my book shelf, but I have to admit it has been quite awhile since I have looked at it or any other Theosophical writings.

While this doesn't directly address your question I can say that I considerably prefer the works of Rudolf Steiner, who was for a time the head of the Theosophical Esoteric Society for Germany and Austria before he split from the society in 1912/13, taking much of the membership with him (although many focus on the Krishnamurti affair, he had been headed in a different direction for some time prior to that). Regardless of how you may ultimately view Steiner's cosmological illations, the man had great respect/insight into the Northern ethos and lore. He gave many lectures dealing with Northern "myth" and one of my current particular interests is his work, The Mission of Folk Souls in Relation to Teutonic Myth.

Thanks for the links, I will definitely try to check them out when I have time and will hopefully be able to post something more pertinent after I have done so.