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Frans_Jozef
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Voisin, Jean-Luc. 2004. Clavicule : approche architecturale de l'épaule et réflexions sur le statut systématique des néandertaliens. Comptes Rendus Palevol 3(2): 133-142.

Abstract:

Les clavicules des hommes modernes, des néandertaliens et des grands singes présentent des morphologies distinctes, caractérisant l'architecture de leur épaule. En particulier, la morphologie claviculaire des néandertaliens, en vue dorsale, montre que leur scapula était plus haute par rapport au thorax que chez l'homme moderne, ce qui expliquerait leur extrême longueur. Par ailleurs, il existe, pour ces caractères, un gradient est–ouest allant vers des formes de plus en plus « néandertaliennes ». Ainsi, plus les individus sont occidentaux, plus leurs caractères néandertaliens sont prononcés. Les néandertaliens pourraient alors être définis comme une espèce polytypique par spéciation géographique à chevauchement circulaire.

Mots-clé: Neandertal; Taforalt; Clavicule; Épaule; Spéciation; Adaptation; Forces de jet; Maroc

Abstract
Clavicle: shoulder architecture and thoughts about the systematic of Neanderthals.

The clavicle morphology in dorsal view, which is associated to shoulder architecture, is different in Neanderthals, great apes and modern humans. Its morphology shows that the Neanderthal scapula was in a higher position in regard to the thorax than in modern humans, which thus explains its extreme length. Moreover, among Neanderthals, there is an east–west gradient for several characters. In other words, the more the individuals come from the west part of Europe, the more their characters become Neanderthal. Thus Neanderthal man could be defined as a polytypic species with a geographic speciation by circular overlaps.

© 2004 Académie des sciences. Publié par Elsevier SAS. Tous droits réservés

Frans_Jozef
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 01:11 AM
If asked what conclusions can be drawn for the Mount Carmel finds, hybridisation winning out from extreme regional variability or even unreducible seperate species, then the answer lies in this article and the one on introgression(http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=115882#post115882).

The Neanderthaler's variance allowed some subgroups to follow a parallel course into a more "modern" sapiens state, opening a niche wherein the possibility to mate with archaic homo sapiens could erupt and by way of introgression the Carmel population emerged.
A similar high variablity could also exist among the archaic sapiens, but in the end the two species became interchangeable.
So both progressive evolution and hybridisation played an important role in the advancement of modern man and with a reasonable consistent chance to by uniting both factors.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 04:58 AM
Coon says Neanderthal clavicles are distinguished by their straightness in his summary of their post-cranial skeletons.

Your mention of the Palestinian alleged sapiens/Neanderthal people is interesting in the sense that the Western Neanderthals are much more extreme that the Eastern ones.

As early as 100,000 years ago, Qafzeh 9 turns up in Palestine. This individual was completely sapiens, if African-looking. It was long-faced, long-headed, and prognathic. Coon says there is nothing more dissimilar than a Negro and a Neanderthal. If there was hybridization between a Qafzeh-type sapien and a Neanderthal population, one would expect a long-headed, long-faced, relatively low-headed, moderately prognathic population to result from simple combination of characteristics. This is what we have in Shanidar, Skhul 4 & 5, Predmost 3, and Amud. Also, some latter Western Neanderthals also exhibit these features to a lesser extent. This indicates to me a hybridization of people in that area of the Near East with the resulting population being called Generalized Neanderthal or Eastern Neanderthal. This population apparently lasted until a second sapiens invasion from Iraq.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 05:09 AM
As early as 100,000 years ago, Qafzeh 9 turns up in Palestine. This individual was completely sapiens, if African-looking. It was long-faced, long-headed, and prognathic. Coon says there is nothing more dissimilar than a Negro and a Neanderthal. If there was hybridization between a Qafzeh-type sapien and a Neanderthal population, one would expect a long-headed, long-faced, relatively low-headed, moderately prognathic population to result from simple combination of characteristics. This is what we have in Shanidar, Skhul 4 & 5, Predmost 3, and Amud. Also, some latter Western Neanderthals also exhibit these features to a lesser extent. This indicates to me a hybridization of people in that area of the Near East with the resulting population being called Generalized Neanderthal or Eastern Neanderthal. This population apparently lasted until a second sapiens invasion from Iraq.

What do you think, about Saccopastore?