PDA

View Full Version : Were Vikings Cromagnids?


teutonicscult
Wednesday, December 31st, 2008, 09:51 PM
There is a rumour that red hair is common in Britain becoz Vikings had red hair, and there were a lot of Viking raids in Britain. So the red haired people are actually descendants of Vikings.

Is this true? I've heard red hair is typical for Bruenns. Which mean the red heads are Upper Paleolithic survivors. Or is there another source for red hair. I'm confused!

CrystalRose
Wednesday, December 31st, 2008, 10:00 PM
Those vikings sure got around. :P What about the 3000-year-old reddish-blond haired mummies found in the chinese desert?

teutonicscult
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 02:39 AM
Those vikings sure got around. :P What about the 3000-year-old reddish-blond haired mummies found in the chinese desert?

Oh yeah Thanks for bringing it up. I was wondering whether the hair of mummies turn red becoz of natural depigmentation of hair when left for such a long time, or is that not the case.

BeornWulfWer
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 02:55 AM
You have to include the prospect that certain civilisations regularly died their hair red in aid towards fashion and cultural pressures.
It is argued that the hair of Mummies which are proclaimed by some to be Europeans by virtue of having red hair are merely the signs of natural decay.

As concerns to the initial question: I have been led to believe that the natives of Britannia (the Picts) were of red hair and were from the stock of the Scandinavian shores, but conclusive evidence has yet to be asserted and until then it is mere speculation.

Red hair seems to be a common factor within all Northern European folk, whether Germanic or Celtic.

As for being Cromagnid? Wait for OEN or Agrippa! :)

Svalbard
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 04:33 AM
When did Vikings become an own ethnic group? Vikings were of Norwegian (and to a certain degree Swedish and Danish) stock, and looked more or less the same as today.

And I believe red hair was common among Brits before any Vikings arrived. What about Boudica? The Celtic queen that led the famous resistance movement against the Romans was a redhead.

So, the Spanish navy dropped by earlier with some red haired ones before they dropped of the swarthy ones some centuries later...?

teutonicscult
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 01:34 PM
Red hair seems to be a common factor within all Northern European folk, whether Germanic or Celtic.


So are Germanic and Celtic really two types of racial groups or are they just two cultures having language barriers. This has always confused me and have never really found a proper answer.

Cythraul
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 01:42 PM
I have been led to believe that the natives of Britannia (the Picts) were of red hair and were from the stock of the Scandinavian shores, but conclusive evidence has yet to be asserted and until then it is mere speculation.
Strange. I've been led to believe the Picts were fairly swarthy and Med' in appearance - similar to the earlier Megalithic Britons.

BeornWulfWer
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 03:29 PM
So are Germanic and Celtic really two types of racial groups or are they just two cultures having language barriers. This has always confused me and have never really found a proper answer.

It's a hard one and one which can open cans of worm's, but I don't believe there is a difference between a 'Celtic' and a 'Germanic' person genetically, but culturally and linguistically only.

Strange. I've been led to believe the Picts were fairly swarthy and Med' in appearance - similar to the earlier Megalithic Britons.

It depends upon which source you wish to form your opinion around.

An interesting article I found whilst Googling.

In the UK red hair is generally associated with people of Celtic descent, i.e Scotland and Ireland. It is believed the people of Scotland came from 5 different ethnic groups who occupied or invaded northern Britain in the dark ages. In all of recorded history, red-haired people have never been mentioned as a group except by the Romans.

The 'Picts' where foes who the Romans fought and were described as having red-hair and 'large limbs' by Roman historian Tacitus. Modern historians with the help of anthropologists have placed red-hair as a unique characteristic belonging to the Picts, who were characteristic to what is now regarded as Scottish.

As far as the world-wide distribution of red-hair is concerned, it would be fair to say that the majority may well have descended from this North-Western European region, although as with all variations between people, mutations in genes can occur and be maintained in any population provided there is no detrimentus effect to the populations growth.

Article cont. here (http://www.geocities.com/red_head_stranger66/origin.htm)

ForwardEyes
Thursday, January 1st, 2009, 11:37 PM
It's a hard one and one which can open cans of worm's, but I don't believe there is a difference between a 'Celtic' and a 'Germanic' person genetically, but culturally and linguistically only.
.

Could you elaborate on this a little more? Do you mean now or in the past?

The trouble is that these people did not leave much written in the form of histories, and that Roman historians were biased, much like the Greeks before them; the ancient classifications of Celtic and Germanic, on which much of the study is based on, are often unreliable.

BeornWulfWer
Friday, January 2nd, 2009, 02:32 PM
Could you elaborate on this a little more? Do you mean now or in the past?

The trouble is that these people did not leave much written in the form of histories, and that Roman historians were biased, much like the Greeks before them; the ancient classifications of Celtic and Germanic, on which much of the study is based on, are often unreliable.

*Opens the can of worms*

The Celts were a myriad of tribal units and races. To stipulate that one particular was "the Celtic one" is in my eyes unrealistic.

ForwardEyes
Friday, January 2nd, 2009, 05:13 PM
*Opens the can of worms*

The Celts were a myriad of tribal units and races. To stipulate that one particular was "the Celtic one" is in my eyes unrealistic.

Yes, in light of that, I'd like to ask you to clarify your belief, considering the variety of both Celtic and Germanic tribes:

I don't believe there is a difference between a 'Celtic' and a 'Germanic' person genetically, but culturally and linguistically only.

Thanks.

ÆinvargR
Friday, January 2nd, 2009, 08:32 PM
Vikings were of Norwegian (and to a certain degree Swedish and Danish) stock
Nigga plz. What makes you think that?

Burgundian
Saturday, January 3rd, 2009, 02:55 AM
Article: In all of recorded history, red-haired people have never been mentioned as a group except by the Romans.

False. Xenophanes said the Thracians had red hair:

"Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair."

BeornWulfWer
Saturday, January 3rd, 2009, 10:30 AM
You are correct, of course, but Xenophane's passage can be translated as, not red hair, but blond hair.

So you get: The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair.

and Ethiopians say their gods are snub-nosed and black;
Thracians that theirs are blue-eyed and blond-haired.

Dependent upon which translation you wish to use.

Stygian Cellarius
Saturday, May 16th, 2009, 09:09 PM
You are correct, of course, but Xenophane's passage can be translated as, not red hair, but blond hair.

Dependent upon which translation you wish to use.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/Casen/Thracian.jpg

Fresco of a noble Thracian woman found in a tomb at the Thracian complex in the Ostrusha Mound (near Kazanlak, Bulgaria). The complex was build around 450 B.C. and was populated until the 4th century.

A thousand years of occupation can result in much genetic diversification. But it being that this is a noble women, it might be in her favor that she is of relatively pure Thracian stock as compared to the commoners. But I guess the argument can be raised that nobles were less likely, in some cases, to be pure due intermarriage with nobles abroad. Expanding their sphere of influence.

I'm also going to assume that the color of her hair in this image has relatively maintained the intended color of the artist. I can see an argument for a faded brown, but I don't think it is.

This image doesn't settle anything either way, but it is legitimate evidence.

As for the Vikings being Cro-magniod. I don't see how there can be any speculation as to what phenotype they possessed. As someone else said earlier, we know they were Scandinavians.

Witta
Monday, March 29th, 2010, 08:28 PM
The biggest section of the Danes today are Borreby.

Wyrdulf
Tuesday, April 6th, 2010, 06:31 PM
The biggest section of the Danes today are Borreby.

And right up the Danelaw in Britain.
William Hague, as an example.

http://i41.tinypic.com/beykbt.jpg

Wyrdulf
Tuesday, April 6th, 2010, 07:20 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/25uh8oz.jpg

If Cromagnids are an early European, ie pre Indo European, and as Cromagnids are found in many European areas, is it not likely that the Vikingers had a fair share of Cromagnids amongst them.
Hrolf Gangar, the ancestor of William the Bastard/Conqueror was too large to ride a horse and therefore was named Gangar... walker.

His name would be Rolf Walker today.

huntsman
Wednesday, June 30th, 2010, 12:31 AM
Also, the cromagnid "falls away" with the onset of intensive cereal agriculture and more complex/crowded society. As Scandinavia was late in this regard, it would follow that cromagnid types were quite common during the time of the invasions.

Sefo
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Is red hair really a Viking/Scandinavian trait? I would surmise that Red hair is much more common among Celtic/British/Scots/Irish then in any Germanic group.

I have not met many Germans or Scandinavians with bright red hair.

Angus
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 04:29 PM
Is red hair really a Viking/Scandinavian trait? I would surmise that Red hair is much more common among Celtic/British/Scots/Irish then in any Germanic group.

I have not met many Germans or Scandinavians with bright red hair.

There's more than you may think. A certain Norwegian moderator comes to mind :chinrub :P

Sefo
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 04:50 PM
Well i'm sure it happens. But as a whole i dont think red hair is a German thing. Perhaps i am wrong.

feisty goddess
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 05:49 PM
No I do not think Vikings could have possibly been predominantly cromagnid. Red hair is just genetic drift in Northern Europeans and very rarely in other caucasian groups.

Wulfaz
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Is red hair really a Viking/Scandinavian trait? I would surmise that Red hair is much more common among Celtic/British/Scots/Irish then in any Germanic group.

I have not met many Germans or Scandinavians with bright red hair.


The Nordids have light brown or golden brown hair. The golden browen hair have brown, yellow and red pigment too. Compare with the Dalo-Faelids and the East-Baltids platinum (only yellow pigment) or ash blond (yellow and black pigment) hair. The rufousity is not just Celtic/British Islander trait, f.e. the Baltid slavs and finno-ugrians (in Russia) can have red hair too.

Udmurt girls in Ural, Russia:

http://russianpickle.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/udmurt_people_red.jpg



The vikings were rather both Nordid and Cromagnids. Some author thinks the Nordid is gracilised Cromagnid derivation, thus the viking must have Cromagnid element. Some author believes the Nordid is a Mediterranid type in the North: in that time they surely mixed with the local Cromagnid population: the Rígsþula said the nobles were tall, lean blonds (Jarl), the free farmers were redhaired, robust people (Karl), and the poor peasants are blackhaired ugly individuals (Þræll). This show that they were not one type.

Þræll (Thrall), the servant, peasant:


7. A son bore Edda, | with water they sprinkled him,
With a cloth his hair | so black they covered;
Thræll they named him, | . . . . .

8. The skin was wrinkled | and rough on his hands,
Knotted his knuckles, | . . . . .
Thick his fingers, | and ugly his face,
Twisted his back, | and big his heels.

Karl (Churl), the farmer/worker:


21. A son bore Amma, | with water they sprinkled him,
Karl they named him; | in a cloth she wrapped him,
He was ruddy of face, | and flashing his eyes.

22. He began to grow, | and to gain in strength,
Oxen he ruled, | and plows made ready,
Houses he built, | and barns he fashioned,
Carts he made, | and the plow he managed.


Jarl (Earl), the nobelman:


34. A son had Mothir, | in silk they wrapped him,
With water they sprinkled him, | Jarl he was;
Blond was his hair, | and bright his cheeks,
Grim as a snake's | were his glowing eyes.

35. To grow in the house | did Jarl begin,
Shields he brandished, | and bow-strings wound,
Bows he shot, | and shafts he fashioned,
Arrows he loosened, | and lances wielded,
Horses he rode, | and hounds unleashed,
Swords he handled, | and sounds he swam.

Jarlsson
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 08:13 PM
Predominantly Trønder type (Nordid/Cromagnid) if we are to believe McCulloch's estimations.
Norway = 45% Trønder (most common in the west)
Iceland = 60% Trønder
Scotland = 22% Trønder (most common in the northeast)
This especially applying to the Norwegian vikings.

celticviking
Saturday, February 25th, 2012, 11:29 PM
Vikings were Hallstatt, Tronder,Borreby, Brunn,Northern Atlantid, Paleo Atlantid & East Nordid. A wide range of hair and eye colours.

Is red hair really a Viking/Scandinavian trait? I would surmise that Red hair is much more common among Celtic/British/Scots/Irish then in any Germanic group. I have not met many Germans or Scandinavians with bright red hair.

Red hair can be found in Tronder,Faelid,Brunn & Keltic Nordid + Brunn.

However there are and were light and dark haired Germanic,Celtic,Roman Greek and Slavs. Archilles had red hair & Halfdane had black hair.

Wulfaz
Monday, February 27th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Vikings were Hallstatt, Tronder,Borreby, Brunn,Northern Atlantid, Paleo Atlantid & East Nordid. A wide range of hair and eye colours.

Paleo-Atlantid?

http://joke.guigui.fr/IMG/jpg/Chabal_2003_George_Herringshaw.jpg

Brünn is not sure too, as vikings came from Scandinavia. The later vikings, normans, varangians could have Atlanto-Mediterranid, Brünn, East-Baltid, etc. admixture, however that came from the subjugate people.



Red hair can be found in Tronder,Faelid,Brunn & Keltic Nordid + Brunn.

However there are and were light and dark haired Germanic,Celtic,Roman Greek and Slavs. Archilles had red hair & Halfdane had black hair.

Dalo-Faelid and the Dalo-Falid-blend Tröndertyp have typically ash-blond or platinum hair. The Nordids have red pigment (golden blond hair), however the Tröndertyp is rather a Corded-Mediterranid-Dalo-Faelid mix than Nordid. Tröndertyp and Corded-Mediterranid have high forehead, Faelid, Nordid have retreated.

Ash blond hair:
http://photos.mp3va.com/220/06/62/226206.jpg

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=110493&stc=1&d=1330376790

Granraude
Monday, February 27th, 2012, 08:32 PM
There's more than you may think. A certain Norwegian moderator comes to mind :chinrub :P

Oh, gee, I wonder who :D