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RusViking
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Has anyone any info on any Celtic and Viking connections.

Scoob
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Has anyone any info on any Celtic and Viking connections.

See this linked thread:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=8596

It has some genetic info based on HLA genotypes (which are considered more reliable than Y-Chromosome or even mtDNA) - it shows that there is a distinctive "European" gene marker that has highest concentration in the Irish, followed next by Swedes. The author calls it "Norse." Interestingly, it seems to have originated in the British Isles during the LGM, and spread throughout Europe via the Vikings.

RusViking
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Thanks Scoob. I will review.

Milesian
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 11:12 AM
In terms of historical social contact, the best documented contact with a distinctively Celtic culture would have been with the Irish.
Just as Ireland was developing itself as a centre for western civilisation during it's Golden Age, the Vikings turned up with excessively bad timing and started pillaging monstaries, which happened to be the seats of learning and the repositories of classical knowledge and culture in Ireland.

The Annals of the Four Masters and other medieval Irish works often record these norse incursions. A lot of it seems to be tit-for-tat invasions, with Vikings taking their longboats up rivers and pillaging the settlements and churches along their way, followed the next year by some Irish clan going on the offensive and burning all the longboats and viking settlements.
It tends to carry on in this vain for the next couple of centuries.

It must be remembered that it was the Vikings that brought urban life to Ireland and built the first major towns such as Dublin and Limerick.
Eventually however, the King of Munster (Brian Boru) at over 80 years old, faced the Vikings at the Battle of Clontarf and decisively defeated them, ending any real power they had. The Vikings continued to live in Dublin and their other settlements but from then on, they were subject to the Irish kings. Eventually, these Norsemen assimilated into Gaelic culture and by the time of the Norman invasions a couple of centuries later, they were basically indistinguishable from the rest of the Irish.

Norse words were also introduced into Irish at this time which prompted the change from Old Irish to Middle Irish. The records start to show Irish people with names such as Magnus / Manus, etc which were orginally names brought by the Vikings. Of course, language also went the other way too, and even today Brian is a common name in Scandinavia (as well as all over the English speaking world), and this of course is a Gaelic name.

In all there was a fair amount of interaction between the Vikings and Celts, and both had some lasting influence on the other.

TisaAnne
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Has anyone any info on any Celtic and Viking connections.A couple weeks ago, I came across an interesting article about Ancient Celtic / Scottish/ Viking sites in New Zealand and I thought it may be of some interest to you...It talks about a connection between Celts and Vikings and that they may have been the first settlers in New Zealand, not the so called "native" Maori tribes. It is a very interesting article, and IMO a good read...Although, it is a bit long. It also may not be the connection you were looking for but I would recommend it.

Here's the link: http://www.kilts.co.nz/mhorruairidh.htm

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, May 5th, 2004, 12:57 PM
A couple weeks ago, I came across an interesting article about Ancient Celtic / Scottish/ Viking sites in New Zealand and I thought it may be of some interest to you...It talks about a connection between Celts and Vikings and that they may have been the first settlers in New Zealand, not the so called "native" Maori tribes. It is a very interesting article, and IMO a good read...Although, it is a bit long. It also may not be the connection you were looking for but I would recommend it.

Here's the link: http://www.kilts.co.nz/mhorruairidh.htm

E. Best(*) makes mention of a special anthropological type among the Maori people, the Urukehu.
It's not linked with any form of abinism, nor is it common, it happens to re-appear in certain families.
Urukehus are fair, light-skinned and has reddish hair with a peculiar bronze-like sheen.
Roland Dixon on his turn hints on a Caspian("Nordic" or brunet white) element mixed with Paleo-Negrid and Paleo-Australid in Hawaians and Maoris.

* E.BEST, The Maori as he was. A Brief Account of Maori Life as it was in Pre-European Days.
Wellinfton, 1974.

phaedra
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 04:56 AM
My question lies not so much with the biological relation as the religious. (sp?) I have a pretty good grasp of the Keltoi approach and mythology/history (depending on your perspective) How do my beleifs translate into the Asatru? I know they are similar in some respects, but I don't feel completely comfortable int their differences to explain them to anyone.

Milesian
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 08:49 AM
The ancient pagan Celts and the ancient pagan Norse both had different pantheons of gods and goddesses, they don't share any particular similarity with each other any more than they do with other European pagan beliefs.
In addition, the Celtic pantheon wasn't the same everywhere. For instance, the ancient Welsh and ancient Irish deities shared some similarities but there were also many differences too. The Irish believed in the Land of the Ever Young which could be found beyond the western shore or under lakes, whereas for the Welsh, paradise was the apple orchard of Avalon.
The Celts tended to worship many local dieties as well, so there was a lot of difference even among the Celts.

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Actually, the bulk of Norse mythology was in fact borrowed from the ancient Gauls. And don't confuse the practices of the British Isles' primitive natives with what was really Celtic.

Milesian
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Sorry to be repetitive but can you provide sources again, for the claim that Norse mythology was borrowed from the Gauls?

As for the practices of the natives of Britain, they certainly differed from those of the Continental Celts (they even differed from each other). Then again, the Continental Celts differed from each other in their practices as well.
Also interesting is that Caesar's belief that Druidism originated in Britain and spread to the Continental Celts is one that modern historians are starting to share

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:50 AM
For this subject, the sources are, due to politics, only considered in classrooms, however . . . (ask a professor in India) . . .

Both Thorburn and Tyr come from the Gaulish Taranis.

Both Odin and Loki come from the Gaulish Lugos.

The Jotuns are in fact the Continental Celts.

Edwin
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 02:56 AM
And I forgot to mention that you should read Snorri's introduction to his Edda with those points kept in mind. The Vanir (or Norse people) knew their tradition was borrowed.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 05:33 AM
There was a TV program on Viking ships which were recovered from Copenhagen harbor recently. They were all made of oak and tree-ring analysis showed that the largest ships came from Ireland. A colony capable of this level of technology just could not exist without interaction with the local population. There were active Kelto-Germanic settlements in Ireland as Milesian says. Also, the population of Iceland was also partially descended from Ireland.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 05:36 AM
P.S., "Brian" is a big name in America also.

Ullr
Thursday, May 27th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Actually, the bulk of Norse mythology was in fact borrowed from the ancient Gauls. And don't confuse the practices of the British Isles' primitive natives with what was really Celtic.

For this subject, the sources are, due to politics, only considered in classrooms, however . . . (ask a professor in India) . . .

Both Thorburn and Tyr come from the Gaulish Taranis.

Both Odin and Loki come from the Gaulish Lugos.

The Jotuns are in fact the Continental Celts.

And I forgot to mention that you should read Snorri's introduction to his Edda with those points kept in mind. The Vanir (or Norse people) knew their tradition was borrowed.

Hahaha, no. That's blustery BS!

Vitor
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 03:06 AM
Sorry folks, but vickings and celtics are not common in the british isles...

from The Herald:
DNA suggests the Celts held their ground

Scientists shatter Anglo-Saxon myth, writes STEPHEN STEWART

THE first analysis of DNA passed from father to son across the UK has shattered the Anglocentric view of early British history, it emerged yesterday.

For decades, historians have believed that successive waves of invaders, such as the Anglo-Saxons, drove out the indigenous population of the British Isles, labelled Celts, pushing them to the fringes of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

However, work by a team of scientists on the Y chromosome, which is passed from father to son, has shown the native tribes left their genetic stamp throughout the UK and not only in the "Celtic fringe".

The evidence suggests that Anglo-Saxons tend to dominate British history merely because they kept better written records than their indigenous counterparts.

A large number of native people remained in England and central Ireland and were never entirely replaced by the invaders, often surviving in high proportions throughout the British Isles, according to the research by Professor David Goldstein, Dr Jim Wilson, and a team of experts at University College London.

The study was based on comparing Y chromosomes from Britain with the invaders' Y chromosomes, represented by descendants of Danes, Vikings (in Norway) and Anglo-Saxons (in Schleswig-Holstein, northern Germany).

Dr Jim Wilson, a population geneticist from Orkney who is now based at University College London, said: "The recent paper was based on a study that I carried out on Orkney to tell if the inhabitants were descended from Vikings.

"It found the genetic profile was halfway between Norway and Ireland, suggesting that the Vikings did have a significant effect on the population.

"In the new study, samples were collected from the whole of Britain in a grid pattern. The study contradicts the notion of the complete replacement of the indigenous people by incoming Anglo-Saxons.

"The data set doesn't show that but illustrates that the English are largely indigenous in origin. We wanted to look at whether culture and genetics go together.

"In Orkney and Shetland they spoke Norwegian until the 1700s and there we have a strong case for genes and culture going hand-in-hand."

Dr Wilson and his colleagues established that Y chromosomes of Britain's indigenous populations were almost identical to those of the Basques, who live on the French-Spanish border and speak a language unrelated to the Indo-European tongues that swept into Europe 8000 years ago.

"We tended to avoid the term 'Celts' as there is some debate about it. For example, the Irish and Welsh are indistinguishable from the Basques, who are the earliest indigenous inhabitants of Europe," he said.

"The Basques were in Europe before farming and before the development of Indo-European languages such as those spoken by the people labelled Celts."

The indigenous population, genetically very close to the Basques, must also be drawn from the original Paleolithic inhabitants of Europe.

They are possibly the first modern inhabitants of Britain, who settled the islands about 10,000 years ago.

As well as the Vikings' genetic trail in Orkney, a centre of Viking activity from 800-1200, many men in York and east England carry Danish Y chromosomes but there was little sign of Anglo-Saxon heritage in south England, once believed to have been heavily colonised.


Cultural evolution

The notion there is a specific history of the Celts, as opposed to the individual histories of the Irish, Welsh and Scots, is a recent phenomenon.

Between the fall of the Roman Empire and circa 1700, "Celtic" was used only to describe the ancient Gauls of France and related continental peoples.

The conventional view has been that Celts shared certain cultural traits such as related languages; they were also all non-literate and non-urban.

The alternative view is that great differences occurred between so-called Celtic cultures. For example, Druidic cults may have been confined to the British Isles and much of Gaul, and were possibly unknown among most of the continental tribes called Celts in the Iron Age.

-June 25th

there are more evidence!
http://www.roperld.com/graphics/Pops72Phylo.jpg

Who build stonehendge?
the celts?
NO!

Milesian
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the info, I think it's pretty common knowledge but thanks for posting all the same.

Celtic is an ethno-linguistic term.
The people of Scotland, Ireland, The Isle of Man and (formerly Galicia) are Q-Celts, that is Goidels or Gaels.
The people of Wales, Brittany and formerly Cornwall are P-Celts, that is Brythons or Britons.

We are aware today that the Celts did not eliminate the previous inhabitants when they arrived in the isles, but co-existed with them. However, their culture and language became dominant.Genetics and Phenotype attest to the fact that the pre-Celtic population are still present.
I don't know if you can actually identify "Celtic" genes, I very much doubt it. The Celts were not a homogenous group of people anyway but rather a culture.

However, I'm always wary of people who claim that the Celts did not migrate to the isles or that Anglo-Saxons were not present in significant numbers in England. The population of England is genetically distinct from Ireland, Wales,etc
People who play down the Celtic or Anglo-Saxon influence usually do so for political motivations rather than scientific ones

Veltis
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Hahaha, no. That's blustery BS!
"Odin" as he is best known was worshipped all over europe, but normally went by the name Woden/Wodin/Wodhin/Odhinn/Wodhen/Oden and that list just goes on and on and on.
The inhabitants of Europe have all intertwined so much its become near impossible to trace some things right back to who is who, really, at the end of the day, we are all the same people :):cool

Ullr
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:31 PM
"Odin" as he is best known was worshipped all over europe, but normally went by the name Woden/Wodin/Wodhin/Odhinn/Wodhen/Oden and that list just goes on and on and on.
The inhabitants of Europe have all intertwined so much its become near impossible to trace some things right back to who is who, really, at the end of the day, we are all the same people :):cool
Um...it's true that people have mixed and some have adopted different ways, but blanket labeling them all the same is not the way to go if you want to be taken seriously.

Vitor
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:43 PM
I do believe the first group to arrive after the Ice age In europe in every region, Is the ones who still are in those same regions.

ethnic genocide is something allmoust impossible to happen, migration of people didn't happen like most people think they did!
migration was small thing, and only fast when there were any people around...
:)

Geneticaly, Celts were a related with the First british natives.

What they had was a new religion/culture and very few new genes from the middle east (were Agriculture first happen), they were neighbours, from holland, belgic or even north of france, that even today are still genetically indistinguishible from the "normal" english. But they carried a new culture, and most important they didn't replace anything.

some 3000-1000 years ago, some ethnic cleansing did happen in britain, from a different group (the normal nordic/german were slighty different from the common "celt", but still they had a percentage of the same previous group...).

That ancient native group is common in the basque country, Ireland, and still are a majoraty even today in england, but more on scotland, welsh and Ireland. because that ethnic cleansing did happen.

the same could be said of:
Holland, Belgic, southwest Germany, Danmark, some places in france, spain, portugal, some southern central european coutries, Italy, etc...).
In these countries that Ice age blood race, varies from 30% to 80%(80% in the basque country and some regions of Ireland, welsh country, 30% in northern countries).

Most europeans are descendent from those who were identical genetically to those first natives britains.

The last Ice age killed allmoust any european, In Italy the previous humans died, and were replaced, with those from the basque country.
I believe these were magnificent people, the Ice age must had provided a place for only the best and the fittest to survive.

Of course there was not only one European Ice age refugee, there were another one north of greece, that are in a way the grandfathers of the nordic people, nordic mixed with some from the west, nevertheless.

Of course in the south (more in the east), there was another BIG genetic input from the middle east (after the agricultural revolution), and most of that original pre-nordic race has been reduced, or been displaced to the north),

So you see, celtic are the most non related people with the vickings.
they belong to a distinct Ice age refugee, more than 30000 years of genetic divergence, of course some mixing did happen, but they were little related.

You could call them celts, but I guess that is a great lie, a roman Invention I believe....the funny stuff is that those romans were related with those same celts...
:)
you could not agree, but there is genetic distintion between west and east...

Vitor
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 02:50 PM
I can't edit my posts?
:(

where I said
"migration was small thing, and only fast when there were any people around"

it should be something like this:
"migration was small thing, and only fast when there weren't any people around"

Veltis
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 07:38 PM
Um...it's true that people have mixed and some have adopted different ways, but blanket labeling them all the same is not the way to go if you want to be taken seriously.
im talking about aryan/northern Europe, there's been so much inter-mixing of different countries peoples we all generally come from the same roots if you take it back far enough. thats all i was saying.

Johannes de Len
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Who build stonehendge?
the celts?
NO! Everybody knows that there weren't the celts who build Stonehenge, the druids just used it as a local of cult... most archaeologists think that it was mainly constructed between 2500 BC and 2000 BC. The older circular earth bank and ditch which constitute the earliest phase of the monument have been dated to about 3100 BC.
Many archeologists state that the celts arrive ~600 BC.
This is common knowlegde for anyone interested on the matter.

Ullr
Friday, June 11th, 2004, 09:13 PM
im talking about aryan/northern Europe, there's been so much inter-mixing of different countries peoples we all generally come from the same roots if you take it back far enough. thats all i was saying.
First of all, I have Northern blood and I am no Aryan. I don't care for that label so don't blanket label everybody the same. There are different population groups scattered everywhere.

Veltis
Sunday, June 13th, 2004, 06:41 PM
Everybody knows that there weren't the celts who build Stonehenge, the druids just used it as a local of cult... most archaeologists think that it was mainly constructed between 2500 BC and 2000 BC. The older circular earth bank and ditch which constitute the earliest phase of the monument have been dated to about 3100 BC.
Many archeologists state that the celts arrive ~600 BC.
This is common knowlegde for anyone interested on the matter.
interesting fact = many drawings made around the time of stonehenge picture the famous wizard Merlin in them, lifting the stones ;)wonder if there's any kind of truth behind this.
We've seen people like David Blane and Derren Brown do rather out standing trickery.