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SuuT
Tuesday, June 3rd, 2008, 11:41 PM
On Suicide


Arthur Schopenhauer

As far as I know, none but the votaries of monotheistic, that is to say, Jewish religions, look upon suicide as a crime. This is all the more striking, inasmuch as neither in the Old or in the New Testament is there to be found any prohibition or positive disapproval of it; so that religious teachers are forced to base their condemnation of suicide on philosophical grounds of their own invention. These are so very bad that writers of this kind endeavor to make up for the weakness of their arguments by the strong terms in which they express their abhorrence of the practice; in other words, they declaim against it. They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it, and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong, when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.

Suicide, as I have said, is actually accounted a crime; and a crime which, especially under the vulgar bigotry that prevails in England, is followed by an ignominious burial and the seizure of the man's property; and for that reason, in a case of suicide, the jury almost always bring in a verdict of insanity. Now let the reader's own moral feelings decide as to whether suicide is a criminal act. Think of the impression that would be made upon you by the news that someone you know had committed the crime, say, of murder or theft, or been guilty of some act of cruelty or deception; and compare it with your feelings when you hear that he has met a voluntary death. While in the one case a lively sense of indignation and extreme resentment will be aroused, and you will call loudly for punishment or revenge, in the other you will be moved to grief and sympathy; and mingled with your thoughts will be admiration for his courage, rather than the moral disapproval which follows upon a wicked action.

Who has not had acquaintances, friends, relations, who of their own free will have left this world; and are these to be thought of with horror as criminals? Most emphatically No! I am rather of the opinion that the clergy should be challenged to explain what right they have to go into the pulpit, or take up their pens, and stamp as a crime an action which many men whom we hold in affection and honor have committed; and to refuse an honorable burial to those who relinquish this world voluntarily. They have no Biblical authority to boast of, as justifying the condemnation of suicide; nay, not even any philosophical arguments that will hold water; and it must be understood that it is arguments we want, and that we will not be put off with mere phrases or words of abuse. If the criminal law forbids suicide, that is not an argument valid in the church; and besides, the prohibition is ridiculous; for what penalty can frighten a man who is not afraid of death itself? If the law punishes people for trying to commit suicide, it is punishing the want of skill that makes the attempt a failure.

The ancients, moreover, were very far from regarding the matter in that light. Pliny says: Life is not so desirable a thing as to be protracted at any cost. Whoever you are, you are sure to die, even though your life has been full of abomination and crime. The chief of all remedies for a troubled mind is the feeling that among the blessings which Nature gives to man there is none greater than an opportune death; and the best of it is that every one of us can avail himself of it 1 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 1). And elsewhere the same writer declares: Not even to God are all things possible; for he could not compass his own death, if he willed to die, and yet in all the miseries of our earthly life this is the best of his gifts to man 2 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 2). Nay, in Massilia and on the isle of Ceos, the man who could give valid reasons for relinquishing his life was handed the cup of hemlock by the magistrate, and that, too, in public 3 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 3). And in ancient times how many heroes and wise men died a voluntary death. Aristotle 4 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 4) , it is true, declared suicide to be an offense against the State; but in Stobaeus's exposition of the Peripatetic philosophy there is the following remark: The good man should flee life when his misfortunes become too great; the bad man, also, when he is too prosperous. And similarly: So he will marry and beget children and take part in the affairs of the State, and, generally, practice virtue and continue to live; and then, again, if need be, and at any time necessity compels him, he will depart to his place of refuge in the tomb5 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 5). And we find that the Stoics actually praised suicide as a noble and heroic action as hundreds of passages show; above all in the works of Seneca, who expresses the strongest approval of it. As is well known, the Hindus look upon suicide as a religious act, especially when it takes the form of self-immolation by widows; but also when it consists in casting oneself under the wheels of the chariot of the god of Juggernaut, or being eaten by crocodiles in the Ganges, or being drowned in the holy tanks in the temples, and so on. The same thing occurs on the stage - that mirror of life. For example, in L'Orphelin de la Chine 6 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 6), a celebrated Chinese play, almost all the characters end by suicide; without the slightest hint anywhere, or any impression being produced on the spectator, that they are committing a crime. And in our own theater it is much the same - Palmira, for example, in Mahomet, or Mortimer in Maria Stuart, Othello, Countess Terzky. Is Hamlet's monologue the meditation of a criminal? He merely declares that if we had any certainty of being annihilated by it, death would be infinitely preferable to the world as it is. But there lies the rub!

The reasons advanced against suicide by the clergy of monotheistic, that is to say, Jewish religions, and by those philosophers who adapt themselves thereto, are weak sophisms which can be easily refuted 7 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 7) . The most thorough-going refutation of them is given by Hume in his Essay on Suicide. This did not appear until after his death, when it was immediately suppressed, owing to the scandalous bigotry and outrageous ecclesiastical tyranny that prevailed in England; and hence only a few copies of it were sold under cover of secrecy and at high price. This and another treatise by that great man have come to us from Basle, and we may be thankful for the reprint 8 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 8). It is a great disgrace to the English nation that a purely philosophical treatise, which, proceeding from one of the first thinkers and writers in England, aimed at refuting the current arguments against suicide by the light of cold reason, should be forced to sneak about in that country as though it were some rascally production, until at last it found refuge on the Continent. At the same time it shows what a good conscience the Church has in such matters.

In my chief work I have explained the only valid reason existing against suicide on the score of morality. It is this: that suicide thwarts the attainment of the highest moral aim by the fact that, for a real release from this world of misery, it substitutes one that is merely apparent. But from a mistake to a crime is a far cry; and it is as a crime that the clergy of Christendom wish us to regard suicide.

The inmost kernel of Christianity is the truth that suffering - the Cross - is the real end and object of life. Hence Christianity condemns suicide as thwarting this end; whilst the ancient world, taking a lower point of view, held it in approval, nay, in honor. But if that is to be accounted a valid reason against suicide it invokes the recognition of asceticism; that is to say, it is valid only from a much higher ethical standpoint than has ever been adopted by moral philosophers in Europe. If we abandon that high standpoint, there is no tenable reason left, on the score of morality, for condemning suicide. The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention. May it not be this - that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that all things were very good? If this is so, it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions - denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it.

It will generally be found that, as soon as the terrors of life reach the point at which they outweigh the terrors of death, a man will put an end to his own life. But the terrors of death offer considerable resistance; they stand like a sentinel at the gate leading out of this world. Perhaps there is no man alive who would not have already put an end to his own life, if this end had been of a purely negative character, a sudden stoppage of existence. There is something positive about it; it is the destruction of the body; and a man shrinks from that, because his body is the manifestation of the will to live.

However, the struggle with that sentinel is, as a rule, not so hard as it seems from a long way off, mainly in consequence of the antagonism between the ills of the body and the ills of the mind. If we are in great bodily pain, or the pain lasts a long time, we become indifferent to other troubles; all we think about is to get well. In the same way great mental suffering makes us insensible to bodily pain; we despise it; nay, if it should outweigh the other, it distracts our thoughts, and we welcome it as a pause in mental suffering. It is this feeling that makes suicide easy; for the bodily pain that accompanies it loses all significance in the eyes of one who is tortured by an excess of mental suffering. This is especially evident in the case of those who are driven to suicide by some purely morbid and exaggerated ill-humor. No special effort to overcome their feelings is necessary, nor do such people require to be worked up in order to take the step; but as soon as the keeper in whose charge they are given leaves them for a couple of minutes they quickly bring their lives to an end.

When, in some dreadful and ghastly dream, we reach the moment of greatest horror, it awakes us; thereby banishing all the hideous shapes that were born of the night. And life is a dream; when the moment of greatest horror compels us to break it off, the same thing happens.
Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment - a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man's existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer.

Notes:
1 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t1) Hist. Nat. Lib. XXVIII, ch. 1.
2 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t2) Loc. cit. Lib., ch. 7.
3 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t3) Valerius Maximus; hist. Lib., II, ch. 6, secs. 7 et 8. Heraclides Ponticus; fragmenta de rebus publicis, ix. Aellani variae historiae, III, 37. Strabo; Lib., X, ch. 5, 6.
4 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t4) Eth. Nichom., V, 15.
5 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t5) Stobaeus, Ecl. Eth. II, ch. 7, pp. 286, 312.
6 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t6) Tradhuit par St. Julien, 1834.
7 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t7) See my treatise on the Foundation of Morals, sec. 5. 8 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fschopenhauer.htm%23 t8) Essays on Suicide (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomp.uar k.edu%2F%7Empianal%2Fhume.htm) and the Immortality of the Soul, by the late David Hume, Basle, 1799, sold by James Decker.



The Question



Under what circumstances, if any, is Suicide a Good and Honourable death?

Cuchulain
Wednesday, June 4th, 2008, 12:15 AM
I'm going to assume that altruistically motivated actions, such as a soldier diving on a grenade to save his comrades,a monk immolating himself in protest of a war, or an elderly grandfather allowing himself to fade away so that there will be enough food for his children and grandchildren to survive aren't what we are talking about here. I certainly find all of those, particularly the former and latter, to be about as good and honorable as human conduct can get.

As far as those who take their own lives for more personal reasons, I think that there is a paradox similar to the one that arises when we try to answer the question "Is lethal injection painful?" Simply put- no one has yet arisen from the dead to tell us whether or not it is. Likewise, no one has returned from the dead to tell us whether suicide was the right decision or not. (Although one wonders why someone would return from the dead if it were.) I think someone's reason for committing suicide is likely more complex than anything they could convey to other in a note or a series of therapy sessions. I'm sure many suicides would be taken back by the victim if they could but not all. The only person I think can answer your question though, is the victim themselves.

SuuT
Wednesday, June 4th, 2008, 01:33 PM
I'm going to assume that altruistically motivated actions, such as a soldier diving on a grenade to save his comrades,a monk immolating himself in protest of a war, or an elderly grandfather allowing himself to fade away so that there will be enough food for his children and grandchildren to survive aren't what we are talking about here.

Th reasons behind suicide have many forms: do you consider these examples of suicide?



As far as those who take their own lives for more personal reasons, I think that there is a paradox similar to the one that arises when we try to answer the question "Is lethal injection painful?" Simply put- no one has yet arisen from the dead to tell us whether or not it is.

But as Schopenhauer has pointed out, it is the life of an individual that opts for suicide that trumps the fear of death. In other words, death becomes a secondary, if not tertiary concern in the act: the pain of life - be it physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, the angst of Being, or a combination of some or all of these, reach a head: potential Nothingness is concluded to be the best course of action. In short, they need not rise from the dead to tell us whether or not death was/is actually more painful than the life they have left; by way of committing the act, they have told us that it is a moot point - and we must, given that we are dealing with antipodes, consider with greater weight that which we can know more about: Life. - it is not the potential pain of death, and pain beyond death, that thwarts suicide. It is the careful consideration of the Value of Being. No?


Likewise, no one has returned from the dead to tell us whether suicide was the right decision or not. (Although one wonders why someone would return from the dead if it were.)

Why would they, though (assuming one has not: I don't think that this is so), if it was this very life that motivated them to that which is next, whatever that next may be?


I think someone's reason for committing suicide is likely more complex than anything they could convey...

I agree. There is a level of pain that that is simply incommunicable, and only understood when one is the company of like beings.


...I'm sure many suicides would be taken back by the victim if they could but not all.

What makes you sure?


The only person I think can answer your question though, is the victim themselves.

Are all individuals who commit suicide "victims" though? But more importantly, I think, again, that it is an answer that must be found, and heard, in life - as that is where the choice is made. A Good and Honouable Suicide, presupposes that a Good and Honourable choice has been made. And, by extention, at least in the moment of the act, a Good and Honourable life has been lived - if only for a few moments.

Cuchulain
Wednesday, June 4th, 2008, 04:37 PM
Th reasons behind suicide have many forms: do you consider these examples of suicide?




But as Schopenhauer has pointed out, it is the life of an individual that opts for suicide that trumps the fear of death. In other words, death becomes a secondary, if not tertiary concern in the act: the pain of life - be it physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, the angst of Being, or a combination of some or all of these, reach a head: potential Nothingness is concluded to be the best course of action. In short, they need not rise from the dead to tell us whether or not death was/is actually more painful than the life they have left; by way of committing the act, they have told us that it is a moot point - and we must, given that we are dealing with antipodes, consider with greater weight that which we can know more about: Life. - it is not the potential pain of death, and pain beyond death, that thwarts suicide. It is the careful consideration of the Value of Being. No?



Why would they, though (assuming one has not: I don't think that this is so), if it was this very life that motivated them to that which is next, whatever that next may be?



I agree. There is a level of pain that that is simply incommunicable, and only understood when one is the company of like beings.



What makes you sure?



Are all individuals who commit suicide "victims" though? But more importantly, I think, again, that it is an answer that must be found, and heard, in life - as that is where the choice is made. A Good and Honouable Suicide, presupposes that a Good and Honourable choice has been made. And, by extention, at least in the moment of the act, a Good and Honourable life has been lived - if only for a few moments.

I wouldn't consider those examples of suicide, but I figured some might so I'd clarify.

Death as one knows it when comparing it to life in contemplation of suicide is murky at best. Will we reincarnated, go to hell, nothing at all, 72 virgins? Careful consideration? I certainly hope so, but I think temporary emotional states, drugs/alcohol can play a major role too. No matter how carefully we consider however, given our ambiguous knowledge of death, one doesn't have a complete equation to work with when making the decision.

I agree, see my parentheses?

;)

I can't be sure that they'd be taken back, but given the rash nature of many suicides I think its likely.

I don't know if I would call them victims, I actually struggled a bit looking for the right word. At first I had perpetrator, but I didn't feel right calling them criminals. Then I tried commitor, which my spell checker kept rejecting no matter how I spelled it, so I figured it wasn't a word.

I really should learn to use the multi-quote.

CharlesDexterWard
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 07:12 AM
I knew several people who killed themselves, although my relation was not very close to any one of them. I respected and appreciated them while they lived among us, but suicide is an ugly, cowardly way to go.

SwordOfTheVistula
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 07:51 AM
It should be a personal choice when to end's one own life. The only exception would be people who have young children to care for, this would be the same as running off and abandoning them. For the most part, I think it rather selfish to expect others to continue to live lives that they don't consider worth living, and to prevent them from making the decision as to when their life should end

DanseMacabre
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 07:15 PM
I think it depends on why the person ended their lives. If one kills himself to preserve his honor then he is noble. If one ends his live because he is a failure or a woman leaves him or some other trivial matter he is a coward.

Kurt Steiner
Sunday, February 7th, 2010, 03:28 PM
When a person commits suicide so that he may not be killed by communist gangsters and hung upside down like a killed pig. I admire him.
When he disallows further dishonering of his people by allowing himself to be murdered and tortured in order to frighten his people further, I honor him.
I will not commit suicide because I will still think that I should take at least one more grenade's worth of enemies with me.

"Four and twenty potato-mashers in my bread bag. Come Bolshevik, I am ready."

Drottin
Friday, April 9th, 2010, 08:31 PM
I only accept suicide as a way to accomplish things that only suicidal actions can. But the goal is always to not die, you shall love your life, and fight as much as possible before you die.

Erlkönig
Saturday, April 10th, 2010, 10:21 PM
In my opinion suicide is a question of willpower. It results from both very strong and very weak will. Following this no man with strength of will would commit suicide without some kind of accomplishment in this mortal coil, therefore he should be honoured for his contribution just as any other. The weak willed who commit suicide because of basal individualistic insecurities and inadequacies should not be honoured, but commended for having the clairvoyance to remove themselves from the community rather than degrade it.

In the end no suicide is unmerited and as usual Schopenhauer and cold logic win.

ThroughTheAges
Sunday, April 11th, 2010, 06:40 AM
I can think of three examples of suicides in the Bible, and 2 actually were followed through. Saul had someone kill him by request, Judas hung himself on a tree, and a prison guard was about to kill himself after an apostle escaped the prison by supernatural power, but that same apostle told the man not do so.

All three are not the most positive mentions of suicide, but it really isn't mentioned as a sin either. I really think person has a right to take his or her own life, just as they have to shower or decide what to eat for lunch, but murder of someone else should be a crime. In cases where the suicide leaves dependants widowed or orphaned, it should be seen the same as leaving a marriage or abandoning children by any other means. But for the vegetable on life support, the mentally or physically tormented, criminal facing a long jail sentence, the old widow or widower who is left without company, or soldier facing torture by his enemies, life has few life options left. I think in these and similar cases, it seems almost a sin or crime to force these people to keep going against their will. I don't think every form of killing is created equally. Sometimes nature is just not merciful enough to end the life of someone for them, so one has to take matters into their own hands. I think one's life should be the decision of that person. If there is punishment for it in the hereafter, that should be up to the person and their divine overseer. Making suicide a civil crime is kind of pointless, not to mention practically unenforceable.

Lothar
Wednesday, April 14th, 2010, 03:33 AM
In the beginning of your article Suut, the writer states that he knows of no monotheistic religion that out laws suicide I thought I would show you one that does and doesn’t depending on the circumstances.
In the one case Islam is very much against taking your own life for your own purposes as you can see here in this Hadith.
.
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 670:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."

Then lets look at the other side of the coin for in Islam to die a martyr is the highest calling, as we can see by the many Suicide bombers we read about every day.

Read these Hadiths.

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 352:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah guarantees him who strives in His Cause and whose motivation for going out is nothing but Jihad in His Cause and belief in His Word, that He will admit him into Paradise (if martyred) or bring him back to his dwelling place, whence he has come out, with what he gains of reward and booty."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 49:

Narrated Samura:

The Prophet said, "Last night two men came to me (in a dream) and made me ascend a tree and then admitted me into a better and superior house, better of which I have never seen. One of them said, 'This house is the house of martyrs."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."

As you can see a religion can both condemn and condone suicide at the same time.
The two are polar opposites on the one hand the continued reliving of your death for all eternity and for the martyred the best house ever seen.

As for Christianity as has been said, not much is written about suicide and how God will judge people who take their own lives. I give two examples that you could read in the papers today, and a third that reminds me of some of the Martyrs we here about today. As Sampson’s goal in killing himself is the destruction of his enemies, this I think would be considered honorable by many.

2 Sam 17:23
23 Now when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled {his} donkey and arose and went to his home, to his city, and set his house in order, and strangled himself; thus he died and was buried in the grave of his father.
(NAS)


I King 16:18
18 And it came about, when Zimri saw that the city was taken, that he went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house over him with fire, and died,
(NAS)


Judg 16:29-30
29 And Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left.
30 And Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" And he bent with all his might so that the house fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he killed in his life.
(NAS)

As I study religions and find out how they think and behave in society. The concept of Eternal glory for the destruction of your enemies is the most disturbing aspect of suicide. And obviously the most detrimental to society as a whole, often causing fear and destabilization. I as an Ambassador of Jesus, I feel all life is precious to God.

The Talmud has a lovely passage “The angels wished to sing praises to God while the Egyptians were drowning in the sea, and god rebuked them saying, shall I listen to your hymns when my children are perishing before my eyes?” T.B. Yebamoth 64a

Life is precious the loss of it is tragic, taking your own life without cause such a waste.

As a disciple of Jesus suicide is not an option for me as I hope this scripture will show. Martyrdom is another mater.


1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
(NAS)

What others do with their life is the blessing of free will, and we as followers of Jesus have no basis to make a judgment on anyone as they are in Gods hands.