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Carl
Saturday, May 31st, 2008, 02:31 PM
Irish referendum could scupper EU treaty

Telegraph* 31/05/2008

(* which has worked hard to oppose the Treaty....!)


In 1973, when Ireland joined what is now the European Union, it was the poorest country on the continent. :rolleyes:


Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan campaigns for a yes vote on the Lisbon Treaty.

Today, thanks in no small part to £32 billion in EU grants, it is the second richest per capita (after Luxembourg). (!!!)

(( ---- so WHO did pay then ??:rolleyes:))

So the result of a referendum on June 12 on whether to consolidate EU powers by ratifying the Treaty of Lisbon must surely be a foregone conclusion.

Think again............

Despite every major political party backing the Yes campaign, support for a No vote is growing daily.

The most recent poll put the Yes voters at 41 per cent and the No voters at 33 per cent..........

That sounds like a healthy lead until you discover the Yes campaign was polling well over 50 per cent on the eve of another Irish EU referendum – on the Nice Treaty in 2001 – before the electorate delivered a resounding No.


In Brussels, European parliamentarians are twitchy about the future of the EU's 495 million citizens resting in the hands of the one million Irish voters expected to turn out on polling day.

Having spent two years rebuilding the Treaty of Lisbon from the scrap parts of the defeated European Constitution, the Eurocrats can only watch as a learner driver takes the wheel of their juggernaut and drives it towards the edge of a cliff.

This scenario has arisen because, while all 26 of the other member states have decided to wave through the treaty via their parliaments (the UK included), Ireland alone has a legal obligation under its constitution to put the matter to a public vote.

Because the treaty must be passed unanimously by all 27 member states, an Irish No vote would kill it.

Earlier this week, the European Commission president, José Manuel Barroso, suggested a No vote would be catastrophic for the EU.

"We will all pay a price for it, Ireland included," he said, adding that there was "no plan B" if Ireland exercised its veto.

(One Euro - One Union -One destiny.........:rolleyes:)

Mr Barroso and his cohorts argue that the treaty represents the next glorious stage in the EU's future, creating a new post of full-time European Council president, streamlining the European Commission and redistributing voting powers.

If you don't find these allegedly crucial changes inspiring, you're not alone.

And therein lies the fundamental problem for Ireland's Yes campaigners. Try as they might, they have been unable to come up with anything approaching a coherent, inspirational argument for a Yes.

Most tellingly of all, the new Irish premier, Brian Cowen, has admitted he hasn't read all of the 287-page treaty, and nor has Ireland's EU Commissioner, Charlie McCreevy, who said no sane person could read it from cover to cover.:D

Asked to sum up why the Irish should support Lisbon, Micheál Martin, director of the referendum campaign for one of the big three parties, Fianna Fáil, said: "First of all, the purpose of the treaty is to ensure that the EU is reformed so that it is more efficient and effective in meeting modern challenges…" :(

Cue widespread yawns from voters. And the leaders of the other main parties have been equally soporific, leaving an open goal for any No campaigner with the charisma and ability to play on popular fears.

Such a man is Declan Ganley, a multi-millionaire businessman who formed the campaign group Libertas to fight first the European Constitution and now the Lisbon Treaty.

Along with such powerful voices as the Irish Farmers Association and leaders of the Roman Catholic Church, he has given voters a dizzying array of reasons to vote No.

The farmers, who have received two thirds of Ireland's EU subsidies, argue that their handouts will be drastically cut, devastating rural areas.

Pro-life groups say Ireland will be forced to relax its abortion laws, pacifists say Ireland's cherished neutrality will be in danger because of provisions for a European army, and patriots say Ireland will be giving up the independence it fought so hard for less than 100 years ago.

On top of all that, there are fears that a centralised taxation system will mean the end of Ireland's favourable 12.5 per cent corporation tax (compared with the UK's 28 per cent), which has helped attract so many businesses.

John McGuirk, a leading member of Libertas, told me: "We will lose huge influence if Lisbon is ratified and we will get nothing in return.

"It will open the doors for Europe to interfere in our taxation system, and it will place huge restrictions on what rights we have to set our own laws."

While the treaty may yet get a Yes vote – the online bookmaker Paddy Power is offering odds of 1-4 for, 5-2 against – it all depends on whether the voters turn out on the day.

There is a real danger that apathy will prevent pro-Lisbon support being transformed into votes.

Éanna Nolan, a 38-year-old civil engineer, told me: "I am tending towards voting Yes, if only because the Yes campaign has the backing of all the major parties, whereas the No campaigners are people like Sinn Fein and [the singer] Dana."

Miriam Laird, a 28-year-old accountant, said: "I've always been pro-Europe, so I'm in favour of the treaty."

Yet both of these voters were not sure whether they would even bother to turn out on polling day.

In contrast, the No campaign supporters I spoke to were clear about their reasons for turning down the Lisbon Treaty – and about their intention to cast a vote on June 12.

Pádraig De Faoite, 22, a student teacher, said: "We're giving away our democracy and we have no idea what's going on in Brussels. On top of that, migrant workers will be able to come in from all over Europe and undercut Irish workers, so it will cost jobs."

Ide Nic Mhathuna, 24, an office administrator, cited the plight of Ireland's fishing industry, which has all but disappeared under the EU, as one of her reasons for voting No.

"A friend of mine who is a fisherman appeared in court this week for catching too many fish in the Irish Sea," she said.

"He's going to have a criminal record now, and it's crazy."

If Ireland rejects Lisbon on the basis of what might be termed parochial reasons – say, abortion or farming subsidies – and the vote is close, the country could be given opt-outs that would salvage the treaty.

But if it votes No by a substantial margin, and the reasons for doing so are varied, it will be impossible to resuscitate the fatally wounded treaty.

The EU will be faced with the prospect of starting all over again with a new document several years hence, or trying to bring in changes one by one.

Such an outcome would not, arguably, be a disaster (the EU has managed to keep functioning despite the 2005 Constitution being rejected) but it would leave European leaders with serious questions about the union's future.

The fact that France and Holland rejected the European Constitution in 2005 was a clear warning that support for the project among ordinary people may be waning.:)

This time, only Ireland has dared risk asking what people think. And if a country that has benefited so clearly from EU membership decides to distance itself from Brussels, it would be proof positive of just how far disillusionment with the EU has spread.

--------------------------------

I wonder . The whole thing is a mess; I will be surprised if the Irish will/can block it. The Juggernaut is on its way. Only something more dramatic will cause it to stall........

BeornWulfWer
Saturday, May 31st, 2008, 04:29 PM
Whether or not the Irish vote does stop it, I hope the Irish vote correctly and give a two fingered salute to those suits in Europe.

The Horned God
Sunday, June 1st, 2008, 12:51 AM
Ireland has indeed benefited greatly from E.U structural funds. But the thing that has benefited us most of all, (and actually makes the structural funds look rather modest by comparison) has been our low rate of corporation tax. Our tax for corporations is far lower than that in most European countries and this has been a major factor, if not the major factor in attracting several U.S multi-nationals to set up their European base of operations here. Ireland is now, among other things, the largest exporter of software in Europe.

If the treaty is passed, in six months time our low corporation tax rate will be ancient history (it's unfair on the rest of Europe apparently) and those U.S companies which are a major factor in Ireland's current prosperity will be in the process of relocating, probably to Eastern Europe.

Frankly I still don't know how I'm going to vote. On the one hand I'm not sure it's right to vote against the treaty on the grounds of wanting to keep what are, no doubt, unfair policies and subsidies, but at the same time I'll find it hard to vote for something that may well cause quite a lot of economic upheaval up and down the country.

Without the subsidies it might finally become impossible for many or most farmers to stay on the land any longer leading to a mass exodus (farmers have been steadily leaving farming for decades). This, if it happened would result in a further depopulation of the countryside, the creation of "Mega Farms", and an influx of even more foreign farm workers on slave wages, to work said Mega Farms.
It would no doubt be far more efficient if everyone in Ireland just moved to Dublin and left the rest of the country to a couple of dozen big farmers...

Getting rid of farm subsidies might sound all very well in principle. In the U.S for instance they don't have them (well not as many) no but they have cows kept indoors like battery hens all year round and fed on maize instead of grass (and are slaughtered six months before they are due to die of a heart-attack aged two and a half). Cattle raising is more efficient that way.

Actually, on reflection, I do know how I'm going to vote. "No".

Carl
Monday, June 2nd, 2008, 10:45 PM
Thanks for your contribution. Many of us do see the EU as a real menace.... but it is very powerful and it is hard to see where it is really heading! I must think about what you have written -- the feeling in England is very critical I believe - hence , no Vote for us ! Thanks Brown, you turncoat.

Mean while----

José Manuel Barroso bullies the Irish

Telegraph 28/05/2008

José Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission, has intervened in Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon Treaty by saying that there will be a price to pay if Ireland votes the wrong way. (???)

This attempt at outside bullying of Ireland's voters is unwelcome, but his comments are indicative of an ideology prevalent in Brussels.

There are commendable aspects to Mr Barroso: as Portugal's Prime Minister, he cut public expenditure and gained a reputation as a free-marketeer. However, he has also been remarkably intellectually movable, and was a member of Portugal's Maoist MRPP party in his youth. :(


Like others who work in Brussels' European district, Mr Barroso has allowed himself to be seduced by the European project, which regards integration as an inevitable historic process, even hailing the EU as an "empire".

He has failed to move the European Commission's policy-making away from the higher regulation consensus that permeates its work into a more palatable direction.

It is no surprise, therefore, that Mr Barroso claims that there is "no plan B" if Ireland fails to vote in favour of the treaty.

Although campaigning in the referendum has been financially unbalanced, with significantly higher spending by the treaty's supporters, the "no" campaign has benefited from committed activists knocking on doors.

It is possible that the result could still go against the treaty, especially as Ireland's boom has come to an end.

However, this would not necessarily be a victory for the treaty's opponents: when the Nice Treaty was voted down in 2001, a second referendum was held the following year in order to have another (that time successful) attempt at winning.

But at least the Irish have been allowed a vote, something (despite an election commitment) we have been denied.

--------------------------

None of which is to suggest that we are at all Anti-Europe - (or even against peace in Ireland ! ;)) No .... just the EU !!!

Carl
Saturday, June 7th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Ireland 'could reject EU treaty'

Telegraph 06/06/2008

European leaders are bracing themselves for a constitutional crisis after a poll indicated that Irish voters are to reject the Lisbon Treaty in a referendum.

The results of TNS/mrbi poll published in The Irish Times showed opponents of the Treaty had doubled their support in the last three weeks, overtaking the "Yes" camp for the first time, as opposition to Brussels among working class voters has grown.

A "No" vote on the Lisbon Treaty, which gives EU institutions more power, abolishes dozens of national vetoes and creates a new post of EU president, would stop it coming into force across the 27-nation community.

It would be another blow to the EU project, which has struggled to recover from the rejection in 2005 of the predecessor to the Lisbon document, the Constitutional Treaty, by voters in France and the Netherlands.



Rejection of Lisbon by the only country holding a referendum on it would put pressure on British MPs to halt the as-yet imcomplete UK ratification process.

Last night there were signs that Brussels officials would try to convene an emergency summit of EU leaders in the event of a "No" vote to find a way to satisfy Irish voters, before calling for a repeat referendum.

The survey of 1,000 voters showed 35 per cent intended to vote "No", up from 17 per cent in the last TNS/mrbi poll three weeks ago. The "Yes" camp stood at 30 per cent, down from 35 per cent in the previous poll.

In Ireland the surge in the "No" vote was being attributed in part to the unpopularity of Peter Mandelson, the EU trade commissioner. ;)

Irish farmers and No campaigners have claimed that world trade negotiations, in which he represents the EU, would slash farm incomes and lead to mass rural unemployment. Mr Mandelson's image has appeared on "No" campaign posters across the country................ !!!

Irish voters fear that the Treaty will erode public services by opening them up to private competition, reduce national sovereignty and trigger higher taxes.

The UNITE trade union, which has broken with other workers' groups by campaigning against the treaty, said it would intensify its campaign in the coming days.

A "No" vote could also encourage integration-minded member states to press ahead with plans for more power sharing, in a "two speed" EU, in which "laggards" such as the UK and Ireland were left behind.

In Ireland there is deep scepticism about whether voters would reverse their decision in a second referendum, as they did in 2003 when Ireland approved the Treaty of Nice – but only at the second time of asking.

------------------------------

My impression is that the voting - this week ?? - is fairly close. It is utterly absurd that the decision affecting the whole of Europe should rest on this tiny country. Especially when they dare not give Germany or Britain the vote!! How utterly corrupt

The Horned God
Sunday, June 8th, 2008, 01:24 AM
My impression is that the voting - this week ?? - is fairly close. It is utterly absurd that the decision affecting the whole of Europe should rest on this tiny country. Especially when they dare not give Germany or Britain the vote!! How utterly corrupt

It wasn't that Irish polititions demanded a referendum; they would have rather avoid it if they could, the problem was, it is written into the Irish constitution that no changes can be made to the constitution without a referendum. If it wasn't for that one fact we wouldn't be getting to vote and the treaty would already be passed.

Carl
Thursday, June 12th, 2008, 12:33 AM
It wasn't that Irish polititions demanded a referendum; they would have rather avoid it if they could, the problem was, it is written into the Irish constitution that no changes can be made to the constitution without a referendum. If it wasn't for that one fact we wouldn't be getting to vote and the treaty would already be passed.

Yes - I am aware of that. It is Constitutional -- hence the PANIC when all the parties saw the vote slipping away from them........!

Anyway - ITS TOMORROW THEN - LETS HOPE THAT THEY (YOU) DO THAT WHICH IS so firmly DENIED TO US ( -- in spite of the promise!!:( )

The Horned God
Thursday, June 12th, 2008, 07:43 AM
Anyway - ITS TOMORROW THEN - LETS HOPE THAT THEY (YOU) DO THAT WHICH IS so firmly DENIED TO US ( -- in spite of the promise!!:( )

I'll be going home specially to vote.I hope I'm making the right choice.

Carl
Thursday, June 12th, 2008, 05:57 PM
We shall see what happens . Personally , it is very hard to see an Irish NO! vote alone making a lot of difference -- but it would strengthen the moral case against the conglomerate and create some interesting fireworks!




Irish vote to determine fate of EU treaty

Telegraph 12/06/2008
The people of Ireland will today determine the fate of Europe when they vote in a crucial referendum needed to ratify the Lisbon treaty.

Reuters
Voter turnout will play a large part in the outcome

The future of the EU's 495 million citizens lies in the hands of the Republic's 2.8 million registered voters, as Ireland is the only one of the 27 member states to vote on the treaty. (??)


An Irish no vote could delay or doom the painstakingly negotiated pact, which would see the number of EU commissioners reduced from 27 to 18 and require foreign, defence and security divisions to be taken unanimously across the bloc.

The whole of Europe will cast its gaze towards Dublin as opinion polls and a strong no campaign have suggested that the result is too close to call.


"The legal position is that if one country rejects the treaty, then it fails" said Professor Matt Qvortrup of Aberdeen Robert Gordon University, referendum expert visiting Ireland.

"A no verdict in Ireland will also adversely affect the current ratification process of a number of other EU states like Britain, the Czech Republic, Poland and Denmark"

Voter turnout will play a large part in the outcome, so there will be much interest in whether the notoriously unpredictable Irish weather will discourage voters from going to the polls.

Poll will close at 10pm and the results of the count will be announced on Friday afternoon

------------------------------------ time will tell.

The Horned God
Thursday, June 12th, 2008, 10:04 PM
I'm just back from doing my "civic duty".

The weather dry and the mild, as it is all across the country. As I was leaving the polling station I heard one of the Polling Clerks mention to the other that they had passed the 50% mark in the turnout. So turnout is probably quite high.

SwordOfTheVistula
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 01:13 AM
I'm just back from doing my "civic duty".

The weather dry and the mild, as it is all across the country. As I was leaving the polling station I heard one of the Polling Clerks mention to the other that they had passed the 50% mark in the turnout. So turnout is probably quite high.

What effect will that have-are apathetic voters more pro-EU or anti-EU?

The Horned God
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 10:03 AM
What effect will that have-are apathetic voters more pro-EU or anti-EU?

In the last referendum on Nice around 7 or 8 years ago, the apathetic voters were mostly pro treaty. So if it's the same this time round the higher turnout would help get the treaty passed.

The Horned God
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 10:49 AM
The results of the count are beginning to come in, and they indicate that the vote is leaning towards the no side by a roughly 60-40 margin.

However it's still very early days.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0613/breaking1.html?via=mr

[Edit]I'm listening to the radio. Around 50% of boxes have been opened now and it's gap is tightening a bit but it's still at least 55/45 for a no vote.

It seems middle class and ethnically mixed areas are mostly voting Yes and working class and rural areas are voting No. Of course the Farmers and Fishermen all voted No.

In Brussels some are saying the other 26 governments will go ahead with the treaty inspite of an Irish No vote.

Carl
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 12:52 PM
More background --- Europe awaits in Hope !!

--------------DOWN WITH THE EU STATE!!!------------


Ireland's EU treaty vote: Broadcaster RTE says early indication is 'No'

12:05PM BST 13/06/2008

The Irish referendum on the EU Lisbon Treaty is likely to return a "no" vote, according to early indications.

Early forecasts said turn-out was low at around the 40 to 45 per cent
"Very early indications are that the treaty may be in some difficulty," according to the broadcaster RTE, citing tallies from ballot counting going on around the country after Thursday's referendum as Europe looks anxiously towards Dublin.


The official result will not be known until this afternoon, but early forecasts said turn-out was low at around the 40 to 45 per cent mark, a figure thought to favour the "no" camp.

Any turnout below 45 per cent is thought unlikely to pass the treaty as its supporters are less likely head to the polls than their diehard opponents.


However, neither side yet feels confident enough to claim victory.

All 27 EU member states have to ratify the pact for it to succeed. Ireland is the only country to hold a referendum on the issue, meaning that a decision affecting the 495 million citizens of the EU lies in the hands of the Irish electorate.

The main political parties in Ireland have united and urged voters to support the complex Treaty, which is supposed to streamline the EU. Even the Pope intervened to urge backing for further EU integration, describing Irish missionary St Columbanus as "one of the fathers of Europe."

But a vigorous "no" campaign led by Declan Ganley, the multimillionaire leader of the Libertas group and a son of Irish emigrants, saw the rival camps draw level in opinion polls.

Late last night Irish Government sources nervously suggested that enough support had been secured for the pact to scrape through.

But the Government, like the rest of Europe, faces more tension before they find out if Friday 13 June really will be unlucky for the Lisbon Treaty.


Ireland's EU treaty vote: Low turnout points to "No" !!
(( apathy wins then ! )) ;)


===============================


Times Online
June 13, 2008

Ireland votes No to Lisbon Treaty


Election officials prepare to count the ballots this morning


Ireland has voted No to the Lisbon Treaty, plunging the European Union into a new crisis.

(( an inspired guess or what ?))

With results coming in from across the country, a final result of 52 per cent against and 48 per cent in favour of the treaty was rapidly hardening. A final declaration is not expected until after 4 pm.

The Lisbon Treaty, the reworked successor to the formal constitutional pact dumped by voters in France and the Netherlands in 2005, officially needs the approval of all 27 EU member states. But only in Ireland has it been put to a popular vote, meaning today's result may have far-reaching consequences for the entire bloc.

Barely two hours after the count began today, the No camp had already started celebrating, while senior Fianna Fail strategists privately and glumly conceded their defeat.

Will Irish voters put Europe to the sword?

“Call it hubris,” said one senior figure, “people seem to have forgotten what Ireland was like before we received European funding. They seem to think that we created our success all by ourselves. They are wrong.”

The senior figure admitted that in spite of Brian Cowen’s assurance on the eve of voting that a rerun – as happened after the Irish rejected the Nice treaty in 2001 – would not occur, it was now much more likely.

“The other 26 countries will ratify and we will be told ‘Join us when you like lads’,” he said.

In a television interview last night, Francois Fillon, French Prime Minister, was clear about the effects of a No vote. “If the Irish people decide to reject the treaty of Lisbon, naturally, there will be no treaty of Lisbon,” he warned.

Commentators said that would be a disaster for Mr Cowen, the newly appointed Irish Prime Minister who has struggled to rally the Yes vote following a surprise last-minute surge in opinion poll support for the 'no' campaign in the past week.

The final turnout figure was not yet clear. Commentators and pundits had said that a low figure would help the No campaign, since their supporters were more committed and likely to cast their ballots.

Ireland's rejection of the Lisbon Treaty leaves the EU — whose leaders meet for a summit in Brussels next week — facing a new crisis like that which followed the 2005 rejection of the formal constitution. It also means that three million voters have effectively decided the fate of a bloc of almost 500 million people.

Ireland has caused upsets in EU referendums before. In 2001, its voters rejected the Nice Treaty, a result overturned in a second poll the following year.

Backers of the treaty, which aims to make EU decision-making more efficient, struggled to get their message across, despite a campaign backed by all bar one of the main political parties.

With many Irish people complaining that they do not understand what the treaty is about, pre-referendum opinion polls placed the Yes and No camps virtually neck-and-neck.

One opinion poll last week put the No campaign ahead on 35 per cent, compared to 30 percent for those backing the treaty, while another survey Sunday predicted a narrow Yes victory, by 42 to 39 per cent.

Opponents rallied support for the No campaign around claims including that the treaty threatens sensitive Irish policies like the ban on abortion, low corporation tax and military neutrality. Elsewhere in Europe there has been some bemusement that a country which owes its economic success - as the Celtic Tiger of the 1990s - largely to massive European Union investment should reject closer European ties.

Libertas, a group run by the businessman Declan Ganley and the Sinn Fein party, led by Gerry Adams, were among the most prominent 'no' campaigners.

Mr Ganley said today that the results coming in were very encouraging.

"The Irish people should never have been taken for granted. In their enormous wisdom they have taken on board the treaty, looked at the arguments and, it seems that we have returned the same result again that our fellow Europeans in France and the Netherlands have already sent to the unelected Brussels elite." :)

He added: "In fairnesss to Mr Cowen and the Yes side they did everything they could - including some off-the-ball tackles - to get the result that Brussels wanted, so nobody should criticised him from there.

"But what this does is to give Mr Cowen a mandate to go back to Brussels and build a better deal. I have faith in him that he will do that."

------------------

The Horned God
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Results from half of all constituencies are in now and the tally is still favouring the no side 53.5% No to 46.5 Yes.

The response in Brussels is said to be one of disbelief; "How could the Irish be so ungrateful?" :rolleyes:

It is also being said that most or all of the other 26 member states will probably go ahead and ratify anyway!

Thrymheim
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 03:33 PM
Ah another shining example of democracy in action; what the people don't want it?? oh dear, never mind we'll go ahead anyway.

Thusnelda
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 05:29 PM
I really think the EU should perish! We need an "Europe of the fatherlands", not a centralistic, bureaucratic and people-fiendly "Europe of Brussels" which is lead by plutocratics and internationalistc lobbyists! :mad:

"Thank you!" to our celtic friends in Eire today! :)

The Horned God
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 06:33 PM
Once again, non-Germanics have sabotaged a geopolitical heir to a pan-European Germanic Reich.

Mmmm... :rolleyes:

What about the Dutch, are they not Germanic? They, along with the French, voted against the proposed EU constitution in a referendum a couple of years ago.

Lisbon was a slightly watered down EU-constitution, which the Brussels autocrats were hoping to have passed without any referenda at all.

Carl
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 06:52 PM
And what about the BRITISH (English lead ;)) --- they, like the Germans themselves are not given a vote -- because they know the result.....

Fact is the EU doesn't stand for European Rights but human rights -- and the entry of Turkey etc etc etc ... Wake up to this sad truth at least - we can't even decide our own immigration policies any more because the EU says it would be illegal ! PAH........

European National Solidarity - YES , of course

Internationalist Betrayal of FolkRight -- NO WAY !

Vingolf
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Fact is the EU doesn't stand for European Rights but human rights -- and the entry of Turkey etc etc etc ... Wake up to this sad truth at least - we can't even decide our own immigration policies any more because the EU says it would be illegal !
"We" didn't decide "our own" immigration policies in the postwar nation states, either. The "multicultural experiment" started before the "European integration" process. The eastern expansion - the Drang nach Osten - is primarily geopolitics. Europe needs to take care of its common security interests. "This is our moment! This is our time!"

The European world took an overdose of insular provincialism and self-destructive small-mindedness in WWII. It's time to grow up now.

GroeneWolf
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 08:05 PM
When I heard that the Irish voted no once again I aplauded and saided the Irish voted no.

Carl
Friday, June 13th, 2008, 08:43 PM
OK. I am all for Europe and European people in thir own homeland -- but the EU has far wider concerns. Far from listening to the people & their concerns , the EU is forging ahead without regard. Ratification is required in all States ; the Irish have just voted NO! So up pops Barroso to say -- the Ratification goes on, others should yet vote Yes ( like Poland...). Comment here : pure denial -- totally undemocratic..... the new Autocratic Europe rules. Well our tories and nationalists have already said if the Ratification is not dead , then they too demand a Vote ( as was promised) ... If Labour denies them , then this too will go all the wqay to the Election . Currently , Labour has never been quite so unpopular!! Work it out for yourself.

--------------

José Manuel Barroso bullies the Irish

from the Telegraph of 28/05/2008 [please note]

José Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission, has intervened in Ireland's referendum on the Lisbon Treaty by saying that there will be a price to pay if Ireland votes the wrong way. :0


This attempt at outside bullying of Ireland's voters is unwelcome, but his comments are indicative of an ideology prevalent in Brussels.

There are commendable aspects to Mr Barroso: as Portugal's Prime Minister (!!!)_, he cut public expenditure and gained a reputation as a free-marketeer. However, he has also been remarkably intellectually movable, and was a member of Portugal's Maoist MRPP party in his youth.


Like others who work in Brussels' European district, Mr Barroso has allowed himself to be seduced by the European project, which regards integration as an inevitable historic process, even hailing the EU as an "empire". :(

(( how absurd - the upstart!!))

He has failed to move the European Commission's policy-making away from the higher regulation consensus that permeates its work into a more palatable direction.

It is no surprise, therefore, that Mr Barroso claims that there is "no plan B" if Ireland fails to vote in favour of the treaty.

Although campaigning in the referendum has been financially unbalanced, with significantly higher spending by the treaty's supporters, the "no" campaign has benefited from committed activists knocking on doors.

It is possible that the result could still go against the treaty, especially as Ireland's boom has come to an end.

However, this would not necessarily be a victory for the treaty's opponents: when the Nice Treaty was voted down in 2001, a second referendum was held the following year in order to have another (that time successful) attempt at winning.

But at least the Irish have been allowed a vote, something (despite an election commitment) we have been denied.

----
And since it is NO there isn't now the chance to agree it at the end of this Year.......... Lets hope the Tories take over and kill it utterly !!

A Europe of Nations working freely together

Berrocscir
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Thank you Ireland :) I'll allow myself some wishful thinking and declare the end of the festering, neo-liberal EU and the beginning of a great and proud Europa of strong and self-aware nations and peoples!!

Carl
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:29 PM
It might be helpful if someone translates post #24 - English only on this part of the Forum please!


The EU debate has now entered the area of Criminality IMO ; the issue is already raised in Parliament and will become part of the debate! The Treaty says all countries must ratify. Many have simply rubber stamped it through their parliaments; such is our democracy!!! But the Irish Constitution necessitates a VOTE --- and they have said NO - and do not wish to bring it back........THUS, it would be against Treaty Law to procede with it --- & yet they wish to continue. Surely a big problem. ;)

Typical EuroFudge --" we'll make provision ". But then, its not the same for all members & therefore it isnt the same thing....... YUK.

Vingolf
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:29 PM
Thank you Ireland :) I'll allow myself some wishful thinking and declare the end of the festering, neo-liberal EU and the beginning of a great and proud Europa of strong and self-aware nations and peoples!!
Sure. A "great and proud Europa" of weak, multi-ethnic nations ridden by identity crises, rootlessness, extreme criminality, incest, miscenegation and Babylonian confusion... All easy prey for the raptorial bird in the east. The nation states are dead. Regressive, reactionary, brain-dead nostalgia is just a ghost dancing on their graves.

Carl
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:39 PM
The criminality appears to be in proceding with a treaty when one member has said no. All memebers were expected to say YES for it to precede.Do not insult the Irish - it is not civilized! Do remember, the Vikings once ruled in Dublin.....

We shall see how the British play it; it will go back to parliament shortly I believe. If Brown does not pull back from it - Nationalists ALL will fight hard for Our Referendum ;)

Vingolf
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:44 PM
The criminality appears to be in proceding with a treaty when one member has said no. All memebers were expected to say YES for it to precede.Do not insult the Irish - it is not civilized!
Do not insult the European majority - it is not democratic! It would be absurd if a small, peripheral nation was allowed to decide the fate of all Europe. If the Irish people dislike the EU - why did they become members in the first place? As far as I know, Ireland has benefited enormously from its membership.

Carl
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 01:52 PM
EU referendum: Czech president says Lisbon Treaty project is over

Telegraph 14/06/2008

The Czechs have hammered another nail into the coffin of the Lisbon treaty by declaring that ratification must stop.

The EU treaty has been rejected by voters in Ireland

((SO when is a dead Parrot really dead ??))

The decision is likely to lead to infighting across Europe......;) (( only because of the EU's tactics....))

Ireland was the only country to put it to a public vote.
Czech president Vaclav Klaus, who is supported by the country's largest political party, called the Irish referendum vote a "victory of freedom and reason" and said "ratification cannot continue".

His view was echoed in the Czech senate.

"Politicians have allowed the citizens to express their opinion only in a single EU country," Mr Klaus said.


"The Lisbon treaty project ended with the Irish voters' decision and its ratification cannot continue," he wrote on his own website, according to Czech news agency CTK.

The resounding Irish no was a "victory of freedom and reason over artificial elitist projects and European bureaucracy," he said.

Premysl Sobotka, Czech senate chairman, also said there was "no sense" continuing with ratification, according to the agency..............

The Czech Republic, traditionally one of the more Euro-skeptic of the EU's 27 member states, is one of nine countries which have not yet ratified the treaty.

While little opposition to continued ratification has been seen yet among leaders of the other eight, efforts to keep the Lisbon Treaty alive in any form would be near impossible if another country joined Ireland in rejection.

A summit of EU leaders will look for possible solutions to the institutional crisis next week.






Czech president Vaclav Klaus, who is supported by the country's largest political party, called the Irish referendum vote a "victory of freedom and reason" and said "ratification cannot continue".

His view was echoed in the Czech senate.

"Politicians have allowed the citizens to express their opinion only in a single EU country," Mr Klaus said.

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"The Lisbon treaty project ended with the Irish voters' decision and its ratification cannot continue," he wrote on his own website, according to Czech news agency CTK.

The resounding Irish no was a "victory of freedom and reason over artificial elitist projects and European bureaucracy," he said.

-------------------------------

Well, Madarins? do you hear this?:D

The Lawspeaker
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 02:38 PM
Let's first see the outcome of it all, shall we ?
I am in no mood to cheer before the treaty has ended up in the dustbin and is on it's way to the incenerator.

So- let's wait untill the fat lady sings.

Carl
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Well - even you can't control what the Czech president has to say!

The Lawspeaker
Saturday, June 14th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Well - even you can't control what the Czech president has to say!
I am glad that the damned treaty is gone as you are. But we know the ways of Brussels.. don't we ?

SwordOfTheVistula
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 07:19 AM
Do not insult the European majority - it is not democratic! It would be absurd if a small, peripheral nation was allowed to decide the fate of all Europe. If the Irish people dislike the EU - why did they become members in the first place? As far as I know, Ireland has benefited enormously from its membership.

They never signed on to give up their sovereignty. The EU was originally marketed as a free-trade zone and ease of passage across borders of similar countries, something that made sense.

SwordOfTheVistula
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 08:19 AM
This treaty has been rejected.

The most likely course of action is that they will write a new one which is basically the same thing, bombard the Irish with threats and propaganda, and keep repeating the process until they are able to trick 50%+ of Irish voters into accepting the surrender of their sovereignty.

Carl
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 01:52 PM
If EU will not listen, it risks popular revolt

Telegraph 15/06/2008

Democratic legitimacy has never been the European Union's strong point. Perhaps it was never meant to be: 50 years ago, when the organisation first came into being, it was the creation of officials, rather than of voters.

The EU was constructed around a deep suspicion of "populism" and what it was thought to have led to in Europe: Nazism in Germany, Fascism in Italy, and feeble and ineffective government in France.

Central to the founding ideology of the European Union was the conviction that officials alone can solve the difficult technical questions of statecraft, for they have the expertise that ordinary people, caught up in day-to-day cares, and too easily influenced by irrational emotions, do not.

That view of the nature of rational government goes back to Plato - and as Plato pointed out, it is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. The extent of that incompatibility was demonstrated again by last week's vote in Ireland.

The Irish decisively rejected the new EU constitution, which they were asked to endorse. Of course, Gordon Brown, in common with many other European leaders, insists that the new document is not a constitution, merely a treaty - but that is simply a device to ensure that heads of goverment do not need to give their own electorates the chance to decide whether or not to accept it. Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the man who wrote most of it, insists that it is a constitution.

The people of Ireland are the only voters in Europe who have been given the opportunity to vote on whether they wish to be governed according to the latest version of the new constitution. No other electorate has been allowed to vote on it, for the simple reason that their leaders know they would reject it as decisively as the Irish have done.

The conclusion that they draw from that fact is not that the new constitution should be abandoned; it is that the people are simply wrong, and their views must be ignored.

A more profoundly undemocratic political outlook is difficult to imagine. But the pronouncements from leaders of the European Union's various countries to the effect that they will continue ratifying the new constitution, regardless of the Irish vote, demonstrate clearly how little respect they have for the views of the people of Europe.

In many ways, that undemocratic attitude is built in to the European Union. But institutions today need democratic endorsement if they are to be legitimate: it is now accepted by almost everyone that people cannot be ruled against their collective will, as expressed in elections or referendums.

The EU's leaders now appear to have given up trying to achieve democratic endorsement for the EU. There are obvious dangers in their decision to go ahead with the new constitution in defiance of the people's judgment against it. One of them is that it risks dramatically increasing the size of the rift between the Eurocrats and the people they claim the authority to rule.

That could, ultimately, lead to a popular revolt against the whole European project. The people of France and Holland had already shown their discontent with the European project's direction of travel when they voted against the original proposal for a constitution in 2005.


Yesterday Vaclav Klaus, the Czech President, explicitly stated that the Irish vote has killed off the new constitution: his country only recently emerged from Soviet rule, and he, and his people, are clearly eager to avoid moving from Communist dictatorship into another form of undemocratic government.......

The EU brings many benefits to its members, and properly organised and run, it could bring many more. But it is vital that its rules and institutions are endorsed democratically, rather than simply being imposed from above.

The limits of what the EU can do should be set, not by Brussels bureaucrats but by the people in its member countries. We believe that the vote in Ireland has decisively defeated the idea of a "super-state" Europe, one that has (for example) an unelected president who can sign treaties binding under international law on all member states.

We look forward to the re-shaping of the EU on democratic lines: we think that a stronger, more efficient, if much less ambitious, EU will be the result.

========

DemocraTic ? or Popular ? Hmm..... a lot else gets through without that!! But a Revolt against the Euro-mandarins is certainly possible!.... a new form of Europe could then begin to emerge... one founded on a proper basis!

Carl
Sunday, June 15th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Irish anger at EU plans to press on with Lisbon Treaty despite No vote

Dublin
Telegraph 14/06/2008

Anger mounted against Brian Cowen, Ireland's Prime Minister, as it became clear other European leaders were prepared to ignore the wishes of the Irish people and go-ahead with the Lisbon Treaty.

On Dublin's O'Connell Street, there was fury that Europe appeared to be prepared to press ahead. "I voted No and they can't go ahead, because there is no agreement in Ireland," said Michael Larkin.

((--- thats their Law surely ??))


The man who led the successful No Campaign that resulted in 53.4 per cent of the electorate rejecting the Treaty has not ruled out running in next year's European elections.

Declan Ganley, the Libertas leader, said: "I'm not a politician but if our voice was not heard and ignored, then would I as an active citizen do whatever I could to ensure that our voice was heard in my own small way?


"I would most certainly want to do something about that."

Mary Lou McDonald, Sinn Fein MEP for Dublin, said: "Yesterday the Irish people gave the government a clear and strong mandate to renegotiate the Lisbon Treaty. .....(??)

"At his first European Council meeting as Taoiseach next week Brian Cowen should set out in clear and unambiguous terms the concerns raised by the Irish people and the need for these concerns to be properly addressed."

Despite Ireland's decisive rejection of the pact, there remained confusion over whether a second referendum would be imposed on the electorate in an attempt to overturn the decision......


Conor Lenihan, the Minister for Integration, said that although he did not envisage another poll, he did not rule one out.

His remarks did little to clear up the issue following Mr Cowen's failure to give a definitive answer when questioned hours after the referendum result was announced.

Mr Cowen said he was not prepared to "even surmise on any of that", adding: "I'm not ruling anything in or out or up or down."

The newly-installed Taoiseach woke up to a salvo of damaging headlines, reminding him that he had failed his first major test since he took over from Bertie Ahern.

At the European Council's leaders' summit next week, he will have the embarrassing task of explaining to his colleagues why he failed to sell the Treaty to his people.

"No" campaigners have urged him to declare the Treaty dead when he goes to Brussels.

The disastrous start to his premiership has been compared with that of Gordon Brown, another Prime Minister who took over from a smooth operator and was ushered into office on a wave of goodwill.

In some quarters, his nickname of Biffo, which in its most polite form stands for big ignorant fellow from Offaly, is being challenged by another one – Gordon Cowen.

Ireland has been subjected to two referenda before, so there is a precedent. In 2001, the Irish rejected the Nice Treaty when only 34 per cent of the electorate turned out. The decision was overturned the following year with a 50 per cent turn-out.

Even if another referendum is called, the prospect of a similar about-turn appears unlikely given that the 55 per cent turn-out for the Lisbon referendum.
This time there does not appear to be a silent "yes" majority waiting in the wings.

Carl
Monday, June 16th, 2008, 01:15 PM
THEIR Fudge begins !! ;)

EU leaders mount diplomatic offensive to keep Lisbon Treaty alive


Luxembourg
Telegraph 16/06/2008

European Union leaders are mounting a diplomatic offensive to keep the Lisbon Treaty alive after it was rejected by Irish voters.
Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, is meeting Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk in Gdansk to pressure Poland into completing its approval of the EU Treaty. (!!)

Meanwhile, Nicolas Sarkozy, the president of France, is travelling to Prague to persuade a sceptical Czech government to continue its ratification process.

Mr Sarkozy and Miss Merkel are both keenly aware that if any other countries halt ratification the treaty is finished.......

((Franco_German understanding rules ? ))


"The others must continue ratification so that the Irish incident does not become a crisis," said Mr Sarkozy.

Rescue efforts are also being led by Gordon Brown (??), who plans to ignore calls to suspend Parliament's approval of the treaty this week.

The Prime Minister is determined to press ahead with ratification, which will be completed if the House of Lords votes it through on Wednesday.

"It's right that we respect the Irish decision, but it's also right that we take our own decision - we're about 95 per cent of the way through the Parliamentary process," David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday.

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, accused the Government of political cowardice for failing to admit that the treaty had been killed off by the Irish "no". He called for a halt to ratification.

Mr Hague said that the Prime Minister should come clean and admit that the treaty was dead...................

"I just wish our Government would give a lead instead of saying let's see what everyone else does," he said. "The only point in other countries continuing to ratify the treaty is to put pressure on the Irish, to bully the Irish."

"The Government should show some leadership and tell other nations frankly that the time has come to abandon the Lisbon Treaty."

In Luxembourg, EU foreign ministers will begin salvaging the Lisbon Treaty by preparing the ground for a crisis summit in Brussels on Thursday.

Potential splits are emerging to argue against a drive by France and Germany, who want to force Ireland to vote again, or else establish a two-tier EU.

Miliband has alarmed Paris and Berlin by opposing calls for IMr reland to be left behind in a two-speed Europe, allowing the other 26 EU countries to implement the EU Treaty.

"The rules are absolutely clear. If all 27 countries do not pass the Lisbon Treaty then it does not pass into law," he said.

(( A policy of all or nothing!))

"There can be no question of bulldozing or bamboozling or ignoring the Irish vote. In the end it is for the Irish prime minister to decide what his next moves are. He has got to decide whether or not to apply the last rites."

Brian Cowen, the Irish Prime Minister, has refused to bury the EU Treaty and pleaded against isolation for Ireland.

"I want Europe to try and provide some of the solution as well as just suggesting that it is just Ireland's problem alone," he said.

"A 'no' vote does send us into some uncharted territory and we have to now try and chart that territory and see what way forward we can achieve."

EU officials and diplomats are hoping that a "quarantined" Ireland can be asked later this year to sign up to proposals either for "opt-outs" permitting another Irish referendum or a special "legal arrangement" to allow the other 26 EU countries to move on without Dublin............

---------------

SwordOfTheVistula
Thursday, July 17th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Surprise! Sarkozy is making superficial changes, and wants to force Ireland to vote again after some bullying is applied.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080716202754.mbjcehhr&show_article=1

Irish politicians reacted angrily Wednesday after French President Nicolas Sarkozy suggested Ireland should hold a second referendum on the EU's new treaty, after rejecting it last month.

Irish voters dealt a blow to the European Union last month by rejecting the Lisbon Treaty in the only popular vote on the text anywhere in the 27-nation bloc.

According to deputies who attended a meeting with Sarkozy Tuesday, he said that the Irish would "have to re-vote", despite 53 percent opposition.

A key adviser to the French president said later on Wednesday that Sarkozy could ask Ireland to hold a second referendum on the document, but with some minor changes.

"One of the solutions would be indeed to eventually ask the Irish to re-vote, but probably not on a text that would be exactly the same," said Henri Guaino in an interview to French television.

Sarkozy's comments were described as "deeply insulting" by Sinn Fein's Aengus O Snodaigh, who speaks for the party on international affairs. Sinn Fein was the only major political party in Ireland to oppose the Lisbon Treaty.

"In the month since the Irish people voted overwhelmingly to reject the Lisbon Treaty, we have listened to a succession of EU leaders lining up to try and bully and coerce us into doing what they want," O Snodaigh said.

"The fact is that the people have spoken and the Lisbon Treaty is dead."

He added that Sinn Fein had sought a meeting with Sarkozy when he visits Ireland Monday.

"It is important that President Sarkozy understands that the Irish people demand that our vote is respected and, more importantly, our concerns addressed," he said.

Even supporters of the Lisbon Treaty reacted badly to Sarkozy's initiative.

Eamon Gilmore, leader of the opposition Labour Party which backed the treaty, told the Irish Independent that Sarkozy had apparently "seriously put his foot in it."

The French president should be told "in blunt terms" that Irish leaders needed time and space to consider their options, he added.

Aside from Ireland, parliaments in the Czech Republic, Sweden and Italy have yet to ratify while Polish President Lech Kaczynski this month said he would not sign the ratification, although he has since softened his stance.

The Horned God
Sunday, July 27th, 2008, 02:28 AM
Lisbon referendum would be defeated if held again now

27 July 2008

A second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty would be heavily defeated if it were held immediately, according to a new opinion poll carried out by research firm RedC.

The poll was released by Open Europe, a London-based think-tank which opposes further European integration. It said that the poll showed EU leaders should now drop the Lisbon Treaty.

Just over half of all Irish voters (52 per cent) said they would vote against the treaty if a second referendum were held immediately. Only 32 per cent said they would vote in favour of the treaty.

Respondents to the poll were reminded that Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, reportedly said that Ireland ‘‘must vote again’’, although Sarkozy last week denied making the remarks.


When asked if ‘‘the Irish government should do as the French president has reportedly said and organise a second referendum on the treaty’’, just a quarter of voters agreed, while 71 per cent disagreed.

Just over half of the voters said they would be less likely to vote for Taoiseach Brian Cowen if the government decided to hold another referendum.

Two-thirds of voters said they agreed that politicians in Europe had not respected the Irish vote.

The two-to-one lead for the No side is a direct reversal of the advantage held by the Yes side months in advance of the referendum on the treaty last month.

However, the poll also shows that support for Fianna Fáil is holding up, despite the Lisbon rejection and the downturn in the economy. Support for Fianna Fáil remains at 40 per cent, while support for Fine Gael is 24 per cent, a decline of 1 per cent since June.

The poll was carried out among more than 1,000 voters nationwide last week.
Source (http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=34760-qqqx=1.asp)


It would seem there won't be another referendum held in Ireland any time soon, at least not without pressure of some kind being exerted on the Irish electorate.

Crimson Guard
Sunday, July 27th, 2008, 02:41 AM
Its sad how corrupt (or rather so-called)democracy is now. If they dont like the votes, just force them to vote again until they do like the results. Disgraceful.