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Lycanthropos
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 11:43 AM
About a year ago the swedish net-based nationalist newspaper Info-14 wrote an article about a phenomenon that had started to grow amongst the nationalist ranks in Sweden. The phenomenon was ,what is know as, Irish rebel music.

The article also discussed a possibility that the loyalists were the black sheeps in this conflict and they were sectarian. They claimed that the IRA was as nationalist as any other nationalist organization and that nationalists in other countries should consider giving their support to the IRA.
The article is trying to make clear that there are two different IRA's. The marxist OIRA and the more republican traditionalist provos.
The article takes a strong stance against OIRA and praises the more nationalist provos. Well maybe not praises but at least it gives them credit for being more traditionalist.
The article also points out that loyalists have a tradition of sometimes giving support to Israel. As demonstrated by these pictures:

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~hynes/309K/student_websites/Attia/unionistisrael.jpg

http://uk.altermedia.info/images/Jewishloyalists.jpg

The nationalists usually have tradition of supporting loyalists since Ian Stuart wrote the song "Smash the IRA" and called them marxist terrorists.
But this seems to be changing now.

I myself is not suprised about this. The provos were formed as a reaction to OIRA because they viewed OIRA as traitors when they decided not to help catholics in August 1969 when loyalists burned down many catholic homes in Derry and Belfast. OIRA's explanation was that it was sectarian to help a specific religious group in a religious conflict.

Now i want to know: What do you as englishmen, brittish or people living on the isles think about this?

There was no specific forum for Northern Ireland or Ireland so i had to post this tread here.

Oswiu
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 12:47 PM
My own take on this (and I'm half of southern Irish stock and grew up hearing pro-Republican sentiment and rebel songs - I still know all the lyrics!) is that the Northern Irish now constitute a nation themselves. They've been there a good four centuries now, and do not equate comfortably to any ethnic group in Great Britain. They are a mixture of Scots, English, Welsh and Irish, but have had such a specific history with unusually strong ethnogenetic reinforcing factors, that now they are something quite new and unique. To deny them the same Nationalism that the Irish want for themselves renders the 'nationalists' among the Northern Irish Catholic community as nothing but Imperialists, the very thing that they most vehemently damn their enemies as. When you quiz them, they are not at all reticent about how they'd like to see every Protestant driven out of Ulster, despite the fact that they wave a flag that was designed to show peaceful coexistence between Green and Orange.

The 'nationalists' have the greatest PR machine going, however, and the basing of Northern Irish identity so firmly around militant Protestantism has rendered them particularly unfashionable, and inappropriate an object of sympathy for our decadent media industry.

The two islands were 'married' for so long that it is absolutely absurd to attempt to wipe one of them clean of any traces of this link. It's like the ridiculous divorcee who goes about cutting up all their old photographs to attempt to deny their past attachments. All British nations are now full of Irish-descended and Irish mixed people - the process has worked both ways, so the Catholic Irish need to accept that "What's done is done, and what's won is won, and what's lost is lost and gone forever," as one of their more reflective songs puts it.

As for an all-Irish state, partition or other 'solutions', who knows what the future may hold, and times and attitudes will change. In the past, it was impossible to expect the Protestants to put up with living in a Catholic state, and so the Six Counties solution was the best possible at the time. I know how infuriatingly superstitious the Irish are nowadays, from the perspective of one brought up in a secular British household, so they must have been ten times more 'alien' in the past to their northern neighbours. This wasn't just a matter of culture, as it effected the legislation and politics of the new Irish state, so I have full sympathy for the Northerners who opposed it.

Their is also a deep Marxist vein in the Republican movement. I was told of an interesting article once in which the library books borrowed by the various paramilitary prisoners in some gaol up in the North were compared. IRA prisoners read a lot of ideological material. Unionists read pornography and trashy novels. The man who told me about this seemed to think that this was something in favour of the former. I on the other hand believe it indicates something quite the opposite - the IRA prisoners were fanatical misfits who felt they were part of some glorious cause, while the Unionists were ordinary men without such ridiculous pretensions, fighting to preserve their people's way of life.

Boernician
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 05:12 PM
My own take on this (and I'm half of southern Irish stock and grew up hearing pro-Republican sentiment and rebel songs - I still know all the lyrics!) is that the Northern Irish now constitute a nation themselves. They've been there a good four centuries now, and do not equate comfortably to any ethnic group in Great Britain. They are a mixture of Scots, English, Welsh and Irish, but have had such a specific history with unusually strong ethnogenetic reinforcing factors, that now they are something quite new and unique. To deny them the same Nationalism that the Irish want for themselves renders the 'nationalists' among the Northern Irish Catholic community as nothing but Imperialists, the very thing that they most vehemently damn their enemies as. When you quiz them, they are not at all reticent about how they'd like to see every Protestant driven out of Ulster, despite the fact that they wave a flag that was designed to show peaceful coexistence between Green and Orange.

The 'nationalists' have the greatest PR machine going, however, and the basing of Northern Irish identity so firmly around militant Protestantism has rendered them particularly unfashionable, and inappropriate an object of sympathy for our decadent media industry.

The two islands were 'married' for so long that it is absolutely absurd to attempt to wipe one of them clean of any traces of this link. It's like the ridiculous divorce who goes about cutting up all their old photographs to attempt to deny their past attachments. All British nations are now full of Irish-descended and Irish mixed people - the process has worked both ways, so the Catholic Irish need to accept that "What's done is done, and what's won is won, and what's lost is lost and gone forever," as one of their more reflective songs puts it.

As for an all-Irish state, partition or other 'solutions', who knows what the future may hold, and times and attitudes will change. In the past, it was impossible to expect the Protestants to put up with living in a Catholic state, and so the Six Counties solution was the best possible at the time. I know how infuriatingly superstitious the Irish are nowadays, from the perspective of one brought up in a secular British household, so they must have been ten times more 'alien' in the past to their northern neighbors. This wasn't just a matter of culture, as it effected the legislation and politics of the new Irish state, so I have full sympathy for the Northerners who opposed it.

Their is also a deep Marxist vein in the Republican movement. I was told of an interesting article once in which the library books borrowed by the various paramilitary prisoners in some gaol up in the North were compared. IRA prisoners read a lot of ideological material. Unionists read pornography and trashy novels. The man who told me about this seemed to think that this was something in favor of the former. I on the other hand believe it indicates something quite the opposite - the IRA prisoners were fanatical misfits who felt they were part of some glorious cause, while the Unionists were ordinary men without such ridiculous pretensions, fighting to preserve their people's way of life.

Very astute thank you. I have many loyalist relatives in Antrim They see a United Ireland as one that would eradicate them culturally leave them open for permanent persecution.The Republic is awash with Slavs and Nigerians,Ireland is a small country,Ulster even smaller. The IRA types are buffoons three century's behind reality. The love their Palestinian brothers who would murder everyone of them as infidels it they had the opportunity.

Ireland will turn into a mini America and they will be the Natives,outnumbered despised . Gaelic road signs will be replaced by Polish ones. They have not learned from History their immigration policies are a repeat of the King Of Leinster MC Murrough inviting the Norman Earl of Pembroke Richard Fitz-gilbert DE Clare"Strong Bow" into the Ireland to help him.

Lycanthropos
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 08:34 PM
My own take on this (and I'm half of southern Irish stock and grew up hearing pro-Republican sentiment and rebel songs - I still know all the lyrics!) is that the Northern Irish now constitute a nation themselves. They've been there a good four centuries now, and do not equate comfortably to any ethnic group in Great Britain. They are a mixture of Scots, English, Welsh and Irish, but have had such a specific history with unusually strong ethnogenetic reinforcing factors, that now they are something quite new and unique. To deny them the same Nationalism that the Irish want for themselves renders the 'nationalists' among the Northern Irish Catholic community as nothing but Imperialists, the very thing that they most vehemently damn their enemies as. When you quiz them, they are not at all reticent about how they'd like to see every Protestant driven out of Ulster, despite the fact that they wave a flag that was designed to show peaceful coexistence between Green and Orange.

The 'nationalists' have the greatest PR machine going, however, and the basing of Northern Irish identity so firmly around militant Protestantism has rendered them particularly unfashionable, and inappropriate an object of sympathy for our decadent media industry.

The two islands were 'married' for so long that it is absolutely absurd to attempt to wipe one of them clean of any traces of this link. It's like the ridiculous divorcee who goes about cutting up all their old photographs to attempt to deny their past attachments. All British nations are now full of Irish-descended and Irish mixed people - the process has worked both ways, so the Catholic Irish need to accept that "What's done is done, and what's won is won, and what's lost is lost and gone forever," as one of their more reflective songs puts it.

As for an all-Irish state, partition or other 'solutions', who knows what the future may hold, and times and attitudes will change. In the past, it was impossible to expect the Protestants to put up with living in a Catholic state, and so the Six Counties solution was the best possible at the time. I know how infuriatingly superstitious the Irish are nowadays, from the perspective of one brought up in a secular British household, so they must have been ten times more 'alien' in the past to their northern neighbours. This wasn't just a matter of culture, as it effected the legislation and politics of the new Irish state, so I have full sympathy for the Northerners who opposed it.

Their is also a deep Marxist vein in the Republican movement. I was told of an interesting article once in which the library books borrowed by the various paramilitary prisoners in some gaol up in the North were compared. IRA prisoners read a lot of ideological material. Unionists read pornography and trashy novels. The man who told me about this seemed to think that this was something in favour of the former. I on the other hand believe it indicates something quite the opposite - the IRA prisoners were fanatical misfits who felt they were part of some glorious cause, while the Unionists were ordinary men without such ridiculous pretensions, fighting to preserve their people's way of life.

So what is the republican policy on immigration nowadays?
From what I understand is that Gerry Adams is a kind of a more, what should I say, democratic marxist that wants to open up the border. And how strong is the support for Ulster nationalism and separation from the UK in Northern Ireland today?

Oswiu
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 09:23 PM
So what is the republican policy on immigration nowadays?
From what I understand is that Gerry Adams is a kind of a more, what should I say, democratic marxist that wants to open up the border. And how strong is the support for Ulster nationalism and separation from the UK in Northern Ireland today?
These questions would better be answered by someone more intimately familiar with the situation. I know Leinster and Munster reasonably well, but I've only been to Ulster once in my life and that was a brief visit. I hope some other member is better placed to comment. This is a far more complicated matter than my first post's length would allow, after all!

Boernician
Monday, April 21st, 2008, 09:49 PM
These questions would better be answered by someone more intimately familiar with the situation. I know Leinster and Munster reasonably well, but I've only been to Ulster once in my life and that was a brief visit. I hope some other member is better placed to comment. This is a far more complicated matter than my first post's length would allow, after all!

I think about maybe 20 percent favor an independent Ulster last poll I saw. Among my family in NI I would say there is about a third of them that ponder a Ulster with an American style separation of Church and state and economic affiliations with all of Europe.

Adams is to them what Paisley is to Catholics trust wise. Since his cronies are still waging anti "British" boycotts of Small Protestant owned shops driving them out of business ,and ethnically cleansing neighborhoods where they can. Adams is the Dick Nixon of Ireland No I am not a Crook"(terrorist)talking both sides of his mouth at once.
There is a real divide between the educated Protestant and the working class one as well in terms of how threatening they see the Republic. I owned how a devolution of Wales and Scotland into separate nations will effect Ulster men.

OneEnglishNorman
Tuesday, April 22nd, 2008, 12:00 AM
It's difficult.

Isn't the story of Protestant settlement in Ireland, totally hostile to the notion of preservation?

Oswiu
Tuesday, April 22nd, 2008, 12:12 AM
It's difficult.
Isn't the story of Protestant settlement in Ireland, totally hostile to the notion of preservation?
Hengist and Horsa weren't particularly amenable to the notion of Cantii Preservation!

The story is over. Now we have to deal with the results. The main result is that there is a people over there with whom we share much in blood and culture, and they are under siege from hotheads who share much ideologically with our enemies on this island.

Berrocscir
Friday, April 25th, 2008, 05:34 PM
The 'far-right' British Movement of yore (remember them?) supported the Irish republican movement. They said that the IRA et al were just good patriotic nationalists fighting imperialism. Cheerleading the IRA is often seen as the preserve of the left, but the republican movement is a broad church housing everyone from hardline Stalinists like the Workers' Party (ex-OIRA) to quite reactionary traditionists/conservatives, so it is not surprising it will attract support from disparate sources.

Lycanthropos
Sunday, May 4th, 2008, 02:14 PM
The 'far-right' British Movement of yore (remember them?) supported the Irish republican movement. They said that the IRA et al were just good patriotic nationalists fighting imperialism. Cheerleading the IRA is often seen as the preserve of the left, but the republican movement is a broad church housing everyone from hardline Stalinists like the Workers' Party (ex-OIRA) to quite reactionary traditionists/conservatives, so it is not surprising it will attract support from disparate sources.

The italian right-wing also have a tradition of supporting the IRA.
The band Imperium also made a song about this called Belfast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcMQnkh5xs

Angelcynn Beorn
Sunday, May 18th, 2008, 08:29 PM
Something to remember in all of this, is that the PIRA-OIRA split only took the most hardline advocates of Marxism out of PIRA. PIRA still has a lot of Marxist and Communist members, and still takes their view of events in many situations. That fact that PIRA's closest and most intimate ally is the avowedly Marxist ETA, and that it has in the recent past been caught training Marxist terrorists in South America, make the claims that PIRA have rejected their Marxist past - invariably made by nationalists trying to 'rehabilitate' the IRA in nationalist eyes, and never by the provos themselves - a huge stretch of the imagination.

You don't really need to go much further than the policies of Sinn Fein - the political wing of the PIRA for the last 40 years - to get an understanding of what their ideology is.

Sedrik Godwynsun
Wednesday, January 28th, 2009, 09:54 PM
The British dream of "Union" ended up being an Irish nightmare. I think all of the men of Ulster should just move to some Argentian wilderness and start again. But then again they might end up becoming like the Jews, unwelcome in their new home and unable to return without causing a war.
It makes me fear for the future of our new multi-cultural Europe. If cousins can't get along and forgive, what about strangers?