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Lissu
Monday, September 3rd, 2007, 08:07 PM
Germanics have Nordic blood running through their veins.Germanics are very heterogenous group of phenotypes - everything is represented from Mediterranid to Nordid and CM to Dinarid. Generalizing that Germanics have Nordid blood running through their veins is - generalizing. Part of Germanics, million for sure do have Nordid blood, but not all.

Jäger
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Germanics are very heterogenous group of phenotypes - everything is represented from Mediterranid to Nordid and CM to Dinarid.
In some time you might as well add Negroid and Orientalid, Armenid, etc.

However, the source of Germanicness was Nordic blood.

Huzar
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 12:24 AM
However, the source of Germanicness was Nordic blood.


......togheter with Dinarid and Cromagnid.

Jäger
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 08:31 AM
......togheter with Dinarid and Cromagnid.
I, like AlbionMP, spoke of Nordic blood, not Nordid blood, by definition how a race comes into existance, there is no way a southern type would be the source of a people that emerged from northern regions.
Thus, yes northern cromagnids, and maybe dinarids depending on whether one wants to see dinarization as a mere process, or a real race, incl. own root race, because then they would lack the similar borealization traits, wouldn't they?

Huzar
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 09:49 AM
there is no way a southern type would be the source of a people that emerged from northern regions.


That's right. (but remember that Dinarid race originated in MittelEurope, not in south-europe).



Thus, yes northern cromagnids, and maybe dinarids depending on whether one wants to see dinarization as a mere process, or a real race, incl. own root race

In both cases i think.

Jäger
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 10:49 AM
That's right. (but remember that Dinarid race originated in MittelEurope, not in south-europe).
By that you are already implying that it has to be a real race, but given that the most "pure" Dinarids seem to live in the Baltic states, I find this at least debatable, to the point where I would at least demand a source, since I don't "remember that" :D

However if the Dinarid form would be a mere adaptation to an environment in higher altitude, it would be different of course. The similarities to some oriental races would speak for that.


In both cases i think.
Well, in the second case only if you would count the Dinarid race, as a northern race, but I already asked how you would explain the strong differences in borealization to all other northern types.

Huzar
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 10:54 AM
By that you are already implying that it has to be a real race, but given that the most "pure" Dinarids seem to live in the Baltic states, I find this at least debatable, to the point where I would at least demand a source, since I don't "remember that" :D



you don't "remember that", since they don't live in Baltic states :D



Well, in the second case only if you would count the Dinarid race, as a northern race, but I already asked how you would explain the strong differences in borealization to all other northern types.
Nordid are borealized ? (my god, Jaeger.....learn abit much on anthropology ;))

Jäger
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 12:23 PM
you don't "remember that", since they don't live in Baltic states :D
Hehe, indeed my mistake, I mean the Balkan, I always mix that up somehow, so ....


Nordid are borealized ? (my god, Jaeger.....learn abit much on anthropology ;))
Well, it seems I indeed have confuesed some words :o however I mean the adaptation to cold climate.

AlbionMP
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Germanics are very heterogenous group of phenotypes - everything is represented from Mediterranid to Nordid and CM to Dinarid. Generalizing that Germanics have Nordid blood running through their veins is - generalizing. Part of Germanics, million for sure do have Nordid blood, but not all.

I think someone is Germanic, only if they have some Nordic blood.

Huzar
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 01:03 PM
Well, it seems I indeed have confuesed some words :o however I mean the adaptation to cold climate.You confuse many things.........however, Borealization occurs in Baltid and Cromagnid types. Nordids aren't more adapted than Dinards to northern climate.

SineNomine
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Jaeger did raise a good point though - is there such a thing as a stable dinaric race, or is it just a process certain Europid types undergo? I'm not well-read on anthropology, so informed answers would be appreciated. :)

Jäger
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 02:12 PM
Borealization occurs in Baltid and Cromagnid types.
So the Balitd type is not a Cromagnid type?


Nordids aren't more adapted than Dinards to northern climate.
This doesn't answer the question whether they are adapted to it in the first place. To put it different, are Dinarids adapted to cold climate?

PeterThaGreat
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Borealization haven't occurred in Northern European Cro-Magnids apart from Baltids, which are partly cold-adapted, reduced Cro-Magnids, or Cro-magnoids, not Cro-magnids. There's a subtle difference in the terminology but phenotypically the differencies are obvious.

Ragnar Thorsson
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 04:58 PM
I don't really get the point of this thread, but I personally think that the dinarid race is not Germanic.
The dinarid race rather uncommon in the current Germanic countries. Perhaps in Southern Germany but that has to do with the migration from Dinarids to the west. After the Germanics settled there. Therefor I think Dinarid is Non-Germanic. I think the Dinarids can be placed in Romance tribes.

Huzar
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 05:06 PM
So the Balitd type is not a Cromagnid type?


Baltid is not Cromagnid proper. Is a Cromagnid derived. But if it's for this, Dinarids too are considered Cromagnid derived by some anthropologist.

Simply their evolution is more complex than Baltid one. Dinarid Should be the result of an amalgama between old Cromagnid type and an Atlantomed. variety.........dinarized by Alpine anvrionment.





This doesn't answer the question whether they are adapted to it in the first place. To put it different, are Dinarids adapted to cold climate?


Surely they can live in a cold climate. Mountain is their natural habitat.




I think the Dinarids can be placed in Romance tribes.



No. I think it should be placed in Celtic and Germanic tribes. Romance tribes were mainly med, and Dinarid isn't med.

Lissu
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 05:28 PM
However, the source of Germanicness was Nordic blood.Source is debatable, could well be the case, but as for today's Germanics I'm afraid you'll rule quite a large amount of Germanics out by that.

Janus
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 05:30 PM
The original Germanics were cromagnid proper and nordid but they expanded into more southern regions held by Celts before such as Bavaria which was racially mostly alpinid and partly dinarid and so dinarids became Germanics in the flow of time. Romance "tribes" (which one is besides the Romans themselves?) were partly dinarid aswell and you can see it quite well when classifying old sculptures of Roman politicians which show relatively often dinarid traits.

Flash Voyager
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Germanic is rather a cluster of ethnicities who are descendants of proto-Germanic speakers. The original ones were arguably all anthropologically Nordid and/or North-CM since they were the Teutons(right?) who originate from Northern Europe. But as Germanic peoples expanded throughout Europe going as far as Iranian-speaking territory in western Asia, they assimilated several Celtic, Slavic and Romanic groups. But in terms of ancestry and language why shouldn't a German who happens to be physically Dinarid be accept as Germanic?

A phenotype has scientifically nothing to do with ethnic groups.

Allenson
Tuesday, September 4th, 2007, 07:58 PM
I don't really get the point of this thread,


That's because I took a bunch of off-topic posts from the "Is Scotland Germanic" thread and moved them here as its own thread.

Hence the disjointedness.

Let this be a lesson to all you off-topic types! ;)

So, what's your favorite color? :cool:

Rhydderch
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 05:28 AM
and maybe dinarids depending on whether one wants to see dinarization as a mere process, or a real race, incl. own root raceIf one includes all narrow faced brachycephals as Dinarid, then it could be described as at least partially the effect of various mixings of genes. It could be produced particularly by Alpinid mixed with some long faced type like Atlanto-med or Corded.

But there is a Dinarid which is as much a real race as any other.


but given that the most "pure" Dinarids seem to live in the Baltic statesNarrow faced brachycephals might be commonest there, but this "true" Dinarid perhaps not necessarily. If anything they seem to be commonest in France and the British Isles.

Alpinids however, seem exceptionally common in the Balkan region. The planoccipital brachycephaly of Balkan people looks quite different to that of people in the British Isles.

Huzar
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 10:07 AM
The original Germanics were cromagnid proper and nordid but they expanded into more southern regions held by Celts before such as Bavaria which was racially mostly alpinid and partly dinarid and so dinarids became Germanics in the flow of time.


So you would consider South-german Dinarids as a (Germanized) residual of Celtic populations ?




Romance "tribes" (which one is besides the Romans themselves?) were partly dinarid aswell and you can see it quite well when classifying old sculptures of Roman politicians which show relatively often dinarid traits.


Usefull note, JANUS. "Romance tribes" it's an absurd definition, since it isn't a race rather a form of civilisation.

Hohenheim
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 10:53 AM
So you would consider South-german Dinarids as a (Germanized) residual of Celtic populations ?

I think that Bavarians have both Germanic and Celtic blood (wich one more, no idea), A Germanic spirit, Germanic culture, so therefor they are Germanic, so if Dinarid or Nordid it does not matter. I think the Dinarid look is more dominant then the Nordic one (darker always over the lighter one), so throughout time some of them became pure Dinarids, but this does not make them Celts. How can you even try to conect Meta-Ethnicites with sub-races? :p

Janus
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 01:11 PM
So you would consider South-german Dinarids as a (Germanized) residual of Celtic populations ?

The original Bavarians yes and in some remote areas it's still like that, especially visible in some remote parts of the Alps in Bavarian and Austria but the avarage Bavarian and Austrian is of mixed Germanic and Celtic ethnic heritage and culturally predominantly Germanic.

Jäger
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Source is debatable, could well be the case ...
This is what I tried to argue about, so feel free to debate.


but as for today's Germanics I'm afraid you'll rule quite a large amount of Germanics out by that.
This forum is about "the preservation of Germanic heritage". Obviously, the concept of preservation is an abstract one, and only applys to other abstract concepts, there is no preservation of actual things, everything changes.
If the premise that Germanics used to be just Nordids and northern (proper) Cromagnids (and maybe Dinarids which is the crux of this discussion) is true, then this means evidently Germanics have changed, by the growing ammount of reduction processes which possibly resulted in Baltids and maybe Alpinoids (although at least the latter used to be regarded as a race evolved from a different root race than Cromagnids.) or simply by mixing with other races, e.g. Mediteranid, Mongolids, or whatever.
We can't stop the flow of changes (we can through a lot of energy try to slow it down, but change is still inevitable), we can just try to direct it, so in order to preserve Germanics how would you direct the flow? Support e.g. Mediteranids and East-Baltids or Nordids and northern Cromagnids?
It would be a ridicilously idiotic thought to believe that the racial change Germanics have undergone so far would stop somehow.
So are Germanics still Germanics if they used to be just Nordids and northern (proper) Cromagnids, and then become e.g. Mediteranids and Alpinids?

However even if we would just consist of the two northern types I mentioned, change wouldn't stop of course, we have to keep directing the change to evolution, not devolution.
That is why a political concept has to consist of two things, where both have equal importance and value: the first is to support actual races, in our Germanic case that should be the source races of Germanics, to keep the Germanic spirit, and the second is the support of individuals who are of great value no matter of which races that are assimilable to our Volk (Dinarid, Mediteranid, Alpinid, Balitd) they consist of. (however the second step is more complex)

Now my argument is about whether Dinarids belong to that source, or whether they belong to the category of just assimilable races, not about whether a Dinarid can be accepted as a Germanic, I never uttered anything in this regard.


If one includes all narrow faced brachycephals as Dinarid, then it could be described as at least partially the effect of various mixings of genes.
Do you think that should be done?


But there is a Dinarid which is as much a real race as any other.
Indeed, my wording was not good.


Narrow faced brachycephals might be commonest there, but this "true" Dinarid perhaps not necessarily.
So now you have to tell us what you mean with "true" Dinarids. What is the main difference between a true Dinarid and just a narrow faced brachycephals?


Alpinids however, seem exceptionally common in the Balkan region. The planoccipital brachycephaly of Balkan people looks quite different to that of people in the British Isles.
Do you bring this up to support the theory of Alpinid mixture as the source how narrow faced brachycephals came into existance?

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 02:30 PM
I think someone is Germanic, only if they have some Nordic blood.

According to your rationale:

Famous Icelandic folk hero Egil Skallagrimsson is not Germanic. He classifies as Borreby + Paleoatlantid from what I can tell...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Egil_Skallagrimsson_17c_manuscript.jpg/230px-Egil_Skallagrimsson_17c_manuscript.jpg

But Elena Dementieva, almost fully Nordid Russian tennis player is more Germanic than aforementioned renowned viking? :confused:
http://images.askmen.com/imagesmodel/2003_sep/elena_dementieva/elena_dementieva_150.jpg

Not all Germanics are Nordid, not all Nordids are Germanics. As easy as that.

Jäger
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Famous Icelandic folk hero Egil Skallagrimsson is not Germanic. He classifies as Borreby + Paleoatlantid from what I can tell...
Like on Thiazi, what you can tell is not neccessarily the truth :D regarding your calssifications based on old drawings at least ;), and to classify this bloke after this picture seems almost too ridiculous.


But Elena Dementieva, almost fully Nordid Russian tennis player is more Germanic than aforementioned renowned viking? :confused:
Germanic is not a comperative, either she is or she is not. And since she is Russian she is not.
However if she really wanted to assimilate into Germanics she is more desirable than a Alpinid Balkan Dude, just from a racial perspective of course. I already mentioned that there are two important points to consider :)

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 03:37 PM
However if she really wanted to assimilate into Germanics she is more desirable than a Alpinid Balkan Dude, just from a racial perspective of course. I already mentioned that there are two important points to consider :)

Double-standard nordicism. First of all, the Nordid phenotype is shared by a minority of Germanics, even though they are obviously more numerous when you get to Northern Germanics.

Certain other types are also rather numerous, such as all Northern Cromagnids, Alpinids, Dinarids, Atlantids, etc. And from a racial perspective, for an Alpinid Germanic from Vienna surely having children with an Alpinid Balkan lady would be more favourable for subracial preservation than with a Russian Nordid, right? Hence I fail to see why one would be more desirable than the other.

Beyond that, as I have stressed often enough, to me matters more what people's heritage is, rather than subrace. Nordoid types have been found as far South as Turkey, I see a Nordid turk no more favourable for assimilation than an Armenoid one. Both are undesired for assimilation. Nord(o)id or not - a Turk is a Turk, and not a Germanic. End of story.

To believe that the other subraces found in North-western Europe are not part of a Germanic racial spectrum is being selective of facts, and wishful thinking beyond that. The blonde haired, blue eyed ideal of the über-Nordid race as the vanguard of Germanic blood may be an ideal of aesthetics to some, but it certainly isn't the reality.

SineNomine
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 03:43 PM
And from a racial perspective, for an Alpinid Germanic from Vienna surely having children with an Alpinid Balkan lady would be more favourable for subracial preservation than with a Russian Nordid, right? Hence I fail to see why one would be more desirable than the other.
Unless increasing the predominance of progressive Europid types is the desideratum.

AlbionMP
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 03:46 PM
According to your rationale:

Famous Icelandic folk hero Egil Skallagrimsson is not Germanic. He classifies as Borreby + Paleoatlantid from what I can tell...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Egil_Skallagrimsson_17c_manuscript.jpg/230px-Egil_Skallagrimsson_17c_manuscript.jpg

No!

This is not according to my rationale!

I have never met this guy - Egil Skallagrimsson!



But Elena Dementieva, almost fully Nordid Russian tennis player is more Germanic than aforementioned renowned viking? :confused:
http://images.askmen.com/imagesmodel/2003_sep/elena_dementieva/elena_dementieva_150.jpg

On first impression she looks like she has some Nordic in her.

However, looks are only one way of making a judgement.

If you classify everyone purely on looks, then my advice is - don't ever leave home without some glasses.

Sigurd
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 03:57 PM
No!

This is not according to my rationale!

I have never met this guy - Egil Skallagrimsson!

Read Egil's Saga (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/index.htm), then come back, and if you still think that anything about this man is not Germanic, then I'll gladly rest my case... :rolleyes:

AlbionMP
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Read Egil's Saga (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sacr ed-texts.com%2Fneu%2Fegil%2Findex.htm), then come back, and if you still think that anything about this man is not Germanic, then I'll gladly rest my case
Where did I state, "Egil....is not Germanic" ?

Jäger
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 04:30 PM
And from a racial perspective, for an Alpinid Germanic from Vienna surely having children with an Alpinid Balkan lady would be more favourable for subracial preservation than with a Russian Nordid, right?
Wrong, why would you think that? You seem to imply that I would want to force people to marry specific persons, or that I would force them not to. Within the spectrum of the european races, such meassures are not neccessary.


Beyond that, as I have stressed often enough, to me matters more what people's heritage is, rather than subrace.
Yes, that's why we are discussing the source of Germanics, if Germanics just consisted of Nordids and northern Cromagnids, than it is obvious that e.g. someone of a Mediteranid type shares a different heritage.
If you want to pin it down to individuals, then I already said that valuable persons of all assimilable races are positive (which is indicated by the word valuable :)), this doesn't change the fact that there also is a racial value.


Nordoid types have been found as far South as Turkey, I see a Nordid turk no more favourable for assimilation than an Armenoid one.
Race is more than just the phenotype, so he certainly bears the risk of recessive negative genes. However even if he'd be "pure" in a racial sense, race is indeed not everything, this goes for already esteablished Germans as well, you always presume way too much about my motives, if a German Nordid raped a woman he would get his punishment as much as a Alpinid Balkan dude.
I am well aware that race is only the fundament, not everything, yet you have to see that the fundament is important, and the better it is, the more possibilites for the things which will build on it.


To believe that the other subraces found in North-western Europe are not part of a Germanic racial spectrum is being selective of facts, and wishful thinking beyond that.
I am not sure what you mean, it is evident that they are part of it, of course depending on the definition of "Germanic", but then it has nothing to do with selective facts. If you are speaking of the racial source of Germanics, than it is obviously wrong, there is no way that Mediteranids would have been part of proto-Germanics.


The blonde haired, blue eyed ideal of the über-Nordid race as the vanguard of Germanic blood may be an ideal of aesthetics to some, but it certainly isn't the reality.
If it would be the reality, then there would be no point of arguing for the esteablishemnt of it.

I already posed the question in my response to Lissu, do you think that the Germanics only consisting of Nordids and norther Cromagnids are as Germanic as people only consisting of Mediteranids or Alpinids?
As I said, the idea that everything keeps being the way it is today is idotic, it will change, better put: it is has always been changing!
If Nordids and northern Cromagnids are easily replacable for you, without losing the Germanic spirit, then you are ignoring anthropological facts.

emperorlives
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 05:13 PM
This sort of debate is silly.

Folk is folk, no matter what their cranium size happens to be.

A Celt and a Germanic..... can we really tell the bloody difference anymore? They have become one as the other.

I just use the general term Celto-Germanic peoples now. Hell, even in Iceland there is a certain percentage of Gaelic genetics ingrained in their population.

And Egil sure as hell was folk!

Huzar
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 05:23 PM
Germanic is not a comperative, either she is or she is not. And since she is Russian she is not.





However if she really wanted to assimilate into Germanics she is more desirable than a Alpinid Balkan Dude, just from a racial perspective of course. I already mentioned that there are two important points to consider :)



Contradictory statements. But i'm glad of it, so everyone can see your double standard (Nordicist) about accepting or not non-Germanics.


Afterall is EXACTLY the kind of hypocrite answer i expected from you, Jaeger. The tall blue-eyed Blond Elena Dementieva could be assimilated in your country, but not a people like me, uh ? (come on, feel free to answer :))

Apart from your obvious, (latent) teen-aged attraction toward Dementieva, WHAT makes a Slav more desiberable than a Celt or a Romance people ?



I frankly consider this last answer from you, a clear expression of the biggest hypocrisy........






Double-standard nordicism. First of all, the Nordid phenotype is shared by a minority of Germanics, even though they are obviously more numerous when you get to Northern Germanics.



Indeed.




Beyond that, as I have stressed often enough, to me matters more what people's heritage is, rather than subrace. Nordoid types have been found as far South as Turkey, I see a Nordid turk no more favourable for assimilation than an Armenoid one. Both are undesired for assimilation. Nord(o)id or not - a Turk is a Turk, and not a Germanic. End of story.


Ok, Sigurd. I see you're very consistent with your ideas, so i can respect your point of view.

If you're Germanicist your objective is to preserve your culture, NOT to make strange racial double standards (as our friend Jaeger would like). So, a Nordid from Russia isn't more desirable than an Alpinid from Italy or an Atlantid from France.

I remember we discussed briefly the point on the thread : "where do you look you're from ?" ........if any Germanic looking people (in Europe), is considerd as "assimilable" into Germanic folk (theoretically), then, in this case, millions of peoples (frenchmen and italians for example) would be "assimilable"............................(but such reasonment isn't logic, we concluded :))





The blonde haired, blue eyed ideal of the über-Nordid race as the vanguard of Germanic blood may be an ideal of aesthetics to some, but it certainly isn't the reality


It's the reality only for the most childish members on this forum ;)

Jäger
Wednesday, September 5th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Contradictory statements.
Nah, that one is either Germanic or not, doesn't mean he is not assimilable into our Volk, this doesn't mean he becomes Germanic, but his offsprings can.


But i'm glad of it, so everyone can see your double standard (Nordicist) about accepting or not non-Germanics.
A double standard is not a contradiction, a double standard is not automatically somthing bad either, if one group is more valuable than another, of course they will be judged differently.


The tall blue-eyed Blond Elena Dementieva could be assimilated in your country, but not a people like me, uh ?
I guess you mean Dinarids in general, because people like you, no matter if they were Nordids or not, I wouldn't want here :)
However, I already counted the Dinarid race as assimilable, see here http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=8505&postcount=24
This doesn't mean that there are no races, which are more valuable for Germanic preservation, I think I already explained myself enough, I even stated that this is only one thing of a two way doctrine. Making me repeat it all over again makes me think I am talking to retards.


Apart from your obvious, (latent) teen-aged attraction toward Dementieva, WHAT makes a Slav more desiberable than a Celt or a Romance people ?
Nothing, it's a matter of race and will, nothing else, meta-ethnicities have no role here.
If you mean what makes a Nordid more desireable than an Alpinid then read my post I refered to above.


If you're Germanicist your objective is to preserve your culture, NOT to make strange racial double standards (as our friend Jaeger would like). So, a Nordid from Russia isn't more desirable than an Alpinid from Italy or an Atlantid from France.
This seems to be Romance egalitarism eh? If a Nordid and an Alpinid are different, then of course I will treat them different. The question whether this is strange or not, I am open for debate, but please take my arguments, and disprove them if you can, I don't have anything against that.


if any Germanic looking people (in Europe), is considerd as "assimilable" into Germanic folk (theoretically), then, in this case, millions of peoples (frenchmen and italians for example) would be "assimilable".
Nah, to be assimilable, it needs race and will, just one of them is never enough. That's why I wrote "if she really wants to", the millions of frenchman and italians mostly lack the will or the race :D
And on the other hand, Germanics who don't want to be Germanic and shit on their heritage, are to be treated not any different, they too will have no place in a Germanic society.

Rhydderch
Thursday, September 6th, 2007, 04:26 AM
Do you think that should be done?I prefer to classify by the component types, the types whose features tend to correlate or recombine. I'm not entirely sure why this happens, but it does, so it's possible to identify the original un-mixed stock.

So I would call such an individual a mixture of Atlanto-med and Alpinid (or whatever the mix may be), rather than simply "Dinarid".


So now you have to tell us what you mean with "true" Dinarids. What is the main difference between a true Dinarid and just a narrow faced brachycephals?One would be that the features of the true Dinarid have distinct correlations, (whereas a narrow-faced brachycephal can be anything). The features are associated with fair skin, brown hair and blue eyes.

Their skeletal characteristics are the same as those of the "Dinarids" who entered Western (and then Central) Europe with the Bronze Age, including a sloping forehead, a medium vault height (or even tending toward low), and of course, a flattened occiput. I think that the "Keltic Nordic" is actually a variant of this, altered by Atlanto-med influence.


Do you bring this up to support the theory of Alpinid mixture as the source how narrow faced brachycephals came into existance?Well no, I don't think the "true" Dinarid is the result of Alpinid influence.

Jäger
Thursday, September 6th, 2007, 10:14 AM
One would be that the features of the true Dinarid have distinct correlations, (whereas a narrow-faced brachycephal can be anything). The features are associated with fair skin, brown hair and blue eyes.
Do you have examples illustrating the differences in pictures?
And do you think that "true" Dinarids evolved out of a root race different from Cro-Magnon and Aurignacian?

How would you see the man in the attachment I provided?


Well no, I don't think the "true" Dinarid is the result of Alpinid influence.
I didn't mean "true" Dinarids, I meant the narrow-faced brachycephals from the Balkan, are they a result of Pontid (or Mediteranid in general) and Alpinid in your opinion?

Rhydderch
Friday, September 7th, 2007, 03:46 AM
Do you have examples illustrating the differences in pictures?No, but I could post pictures if I find good examples.


And do you think that "true" Dinarids evolved out of a root race different from Cro-Magnon and Aurignacian?Yes, although I don't know what it would be. They appear first in the Northern Middle East; they may have developed there from a more heterogeneous population. However they could possibly have developed further toward the north or east of the Black Sea, and then spread southward into the Middle East and along the Mediterranean (then headed north again on reaching Western Europe).


How would you see the man in the attachment I provided?He may be partially of the Bronze Age type, but there is something else as well, I would say.


I didn't mean "true" Dinarids, I meant the narrow-faced brachycephals from the Balkan, are they a result of Pontid (or Mediteranid in general) and Alpinid in your opinion?Probably that and true Dinarid. There does seem to be a true Dinarid element there, but maybe not that much commoner than elsewhere in Europe. The Alpinid element on the other hand, seems strong there (not that I'm that familiar with what Balkan people look like, mind you), and probably some narrow faced type as well. There might also be a dark-skinned (and heavily built) Armenoid type, which is common in parts of the Mediterranean.

Jäger
Friday, September 7th, 2007, 11:10 AM
However they could possibly have developed further toward the north or east of the Black Sea, and then spread southward into the Middle East and along the Mediterranean (then headed north again on reaching Western Europe).
When did they arrive in W-Europe? And did they travel to the north? After all I am still interested whether they already formed a part of the proto-Germanics, and to what degree. (like just peripherial contact, or integration etc.)

Rhydderch
Friday, September 7th, 2007, 12:15 PM
When did they arrive in W-Europe? And did they travel to the north?They arrived sometime around 2000 B.C. apparently. They settled in Italy and also in Northern Spain; those in the latter region then travelled up into France ("by an unknown route", so says Coon) the British Isles and Central Europe, and beyond.


After all I am still interested whether they already formed a part of the proto-Germanics, and to what degree. (like just peripherial contact, or integration etc.)My view is that they were Indo-Europeans, responsible for the arrival of "Italo-Celtic" dialects into Europe.

The Corded folk were possibly also an Indo-European group, responsible for the arrival of Slavic, and of the non-Celtic (but still Indo-European) base of the Germanic languages (this is rather speculative, but anyway...).

So a possible scenario I see here is that the Germanics are the result of an amalgam of the Corded culture with a superimposition of the Dinarid (and hence proto-Celtic, according to this view) culture. There is certainly a strong Celtic aspect to the Germanic languages in general, but the base seems to be an Indo-European but non-Celtic dialect.

So in this case the Dinarids (with their proto-Celtic culture) could be said to be part of what formed the Germanic people.

Huzar
Friday, September 7th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Nah, that one is either Germanic or not, doesn't mean he is not assimilable into our Volk, this doesn't mean he becomes Germanic, but his offsprings can.


I've understood perfectly your deep and spiritual vision of the "Volk" : Germanic preservation is fundamental, yes, but shouldn't absolutely discard the possibility to breed with a blond nordid woman (even if she isn't Germanic at all), if you want.................VERY instructing theory.;)




A double standard is not a contradiction, a double standard is not automatically somthing bad either, if one group is more valuable than another, of course they will be judged differently.


Not a contradiction in your relative scheme. Surely a big hipocrisy in a general one.





I guess you mean Dinarids in general, because people like you, no matter if they were Nordids or not, I wouldn't want here :)


Of course i meant Dinarids in general, in my previous post. (Since, usually, i consider teen-agers opinions about me of "0" relevance...:))



However, I already counted the Dinarid race as assimilable


Good thing, since 20% of native German pop. belongs to this type (Gunther estimation)



This doesn't mean that there are no races, which are more valuable for Germanic preservation


"More valuable" ? "More Valuable" means "anything Jaeger likes" ? ;)





If you mean what makes a Nordid more desireable than an Alpinid then read my post I refered to above.


Ok, Ok......don't be afraid. Nordid Valkirias (from everywehere) will be the first to be accepted in the great Reich. (so you're happy :))




This seems to be Romance egalitarism eh? If a Nordid and an Alpinid are different, then of course I will treat them different. The question whether this is strange or not, I am open for debate, but please take my arguments, and disprove them if you can, I don't have anything against that.


I dubt you really know what Romance civilisation exactly is (less than less the various branch of this culture : Celto-romance, Iberian-romance etc. etc.).

Anyway, are nordids and Alpinids really different ? Explain me please.




the millions of frenchman and italians mostly lack the will or the race :D


I don't think. :)



And on the other hand, Germanics who don't want to be Germanic and shit on their heritage, are to be treated not any different, they too will have no place in a Germanic society.


Shit on their heritage ? What you mean ? You mean a germanic who breed with a non-germanic ? If that's the case, then it's strange to hear that from a people (you) who would breed (with pleasure) with a Russian tennis player (Elena Dementieva)...........

Jäger
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 10:09 AM
So in this case the Dinarids (with their proto-Celtic culture) could be said to be part of what formed the Germanic people.
Is what you wrote all based on Coon?
How would this explain the relative absence of Dinarids in the Scandinavian countries?


"More valuable" ? "More Valuable" means "anything Jaeger likes" ? ;)
I already explained what this means, so I ask you the same question I posed to Sigurd and Lissu (and both didn't respond :(), if the premise that Germanics where just Nordids and northern Cromagnids (proper) were true (whether we should include Dinarids here is topic of the discussion but wouldn't change the principle), would be a Volk who just consists of Mediteranids and Alpinids still be as Germanic in your eyes?


Ok, Ok......don't be afraid. Nordid Valkirias (from everywehere) will be the first to be accepted in the great Reich. (so you're happy :))
I like that :)


Anyway, are nordids and Alpinids really different ? Explain me please.
Since they are different races, they differ in racial traits (mental and physical ones)


I don't think. :)
If they really wanted to, then thanks to the EU no one would hinder them to live as Germans, yet they don't. Why if they not even lack the will?


You mean a germanic who breed with a non-germanic?
No, I meant it much more practical, a Germanic who breeds with a non-assimilable non-Germanic :D

Huzar
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 10:33 AM
Is what you wrote all based on Coon?
How would this explain the relative absence of Dinarids in the Scandinavian countries?


This note, could open an interesting debate.......(at least 1 intelligent post from Jaeger ;)) ......Dinarids are continental race, not scandinavian of course. Now you trace back your ethnic roots to Scandinavia from what i understand.............but you forget Germany/Austria being a CONTINENTAL nation, not a scandinavian one. So, the historical evolution and development of german ethnicity is essentially continental (it deviates from Scandinavian standards)

I'm sure i've got a good point......and i'd like opinions from several poples on the matter.



would be a Volk who just consists of Mediteranids and Alpinids still be as Germanic in your eyes?


Not Gracil-mediterraneans of course.




No, I meant it much more practical, a Germanic who breeds with a non-assimilable non-Germanic :D

The most intelligent answer :D (i'll note down it, in the list of your best phrases)

Jäger
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 11:29 AM
Now you trace back your ethnic roots to Scandinavia from what i understand
At least to North-Germany, as far as Germanics are concerned, Dinarids are relatively absent there, too.
However, the question whether Dinarids really evolved from a different root race is still questionable to me, Agrippa made a good points to believe it is much more of a process which befall the Aurignacian and Cro-Magnon races (or did I get him wrong?)
This would also explain the differences one can see in the Dinarid spectrum, which Rhydderch called narrow-faced brachycephals. E.g. the Keltic-Type is Nordid with dinarization, and the ones one can find in the Balkans most, might be Pontid type with dinarization etc.


but you forget Germany/Austria being a CONTINENTAL nation, not a scandinavian one.
It is now, I am speaking of proto-Germanics though, historical data implys they lived in the North of Germany.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/ArcheologicalCulturesOfCentralEuropeAtEa rlyPreRomanIronAge.png
Orange is Celtic, the dark green, dark red and yellow represent Germanic cultures. The map is from the Iron Time.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/ArcheologicalCulturesOfCentralEuropeAtLa tePreRomanIronAge.png
Here we can see a supposedly merging of celtic and Germanic tribes in regions which are still today more Dinarid (light Green) This map is from late pre Roman times.
Which would let me conclude Dinarids are more of Celtic than of Germanic stock, and that Germanics only had rather few Dinarids in their midst, however it is true, there is a strong possibility that they had at least some.


Not Gracil-mediterraneans of course.
Is this a yes or a no?

Rhydderch
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Is what you wrote all based on Coon?

I've got a lot of the information from Coon, but not my conclusions.


How would this explain the relative absence of Dinarids in the Scandinavian countries?I don't think the Bronze Age Dinarids are as rare in Scandinavia as is often made out.

My (tentative) view is that Nordids are predominantly Corded but with Dinarid influence. I think that Dinarid genetic influence is underestimated in Scandinavia because unless an individual of those countries is fully Dinarid (or at least unless he fully has the well-known Dinarid features like hooked nose and flat occiput), his Dinarid-influenced features will be included in the Nordid category.

Basically, if you take a "true" Dinarid, remove the flat occiput and modify the nose and chin somewhat, then you have a Nordid. But Cordeds seem to be commoner in Northern Germany/Holland and Scandinavia, and a more "classic" type of Nordid is predominantly Corded, IMO.

Jäger
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 02:11 PM
My (tentative) view is that Nordids are predominantly Corded but with Dinarid influence.
Interesting, so Nordids, in your view, are not even evolved from the Aurignacian race, but are a result of mixture?

Anyway, it was interesting to hear your theory, too bad Agrippa hasn't viewed this thread, and wrote something, although I am not strictly against Coon, I would like a persons' opinion who has a broader spectrum of anthopological research.

E.g. With Günther as a basis, such conclusions would be impossible.

Anyway, given old roman texts, and the at least not obviousness dominace of the Dinarid type among today's core proto-Germanic lands, would lead to the conclusion that Dinarids played the most minor role in the composition of proto-Germanics.

Well, as long as it is not really clear, I would stay on the secure side in my politics, and prefer Nordids, and norther Cromagnids (proper) over them :D
I think considering Dinarids as source races of Celtics makes more sense (if they are a result of evolution from a root race though), which would also correlate with the British Isles, where the Keltic-Type is dominant.

OneEnglishNorman
Saturday, September 8th, 2007, 03:05 PM
I am not sure of the relation between Dinarids and Keltic-Nordids. The head length & head height is much different. Maybe Keltic-Nordids are a mix of Nordid and dinaricised Med (Baskid). It's a fairly consistent look, so presumably had time to stabilise and re-select from itself.

Rhydderch
Monday, September 10th, 2007, 05:22 AM
Interesting, so Nordids, in your view, are not even evolved from the Aurignacian race, but are a result of mixture?Yes, or at least that the "classic Nordids" are predominantly Corded with some Dinarid. But "Nordid" encompasses a bit of a range of phenotypes; I think a lot of Nordids don't have any Corded influence.


Anyway, it was interesting to hear your theory, too bad Agrippa hasn't viewed this thread, and wrote something, although I am not strictly against Coon, I would like a persons' opinion who has a broader spectrum of anthopological research.

E.g. With Günther as a basis, such conclusions would be impossible.I haven't really based any of this on Coon. I've got information about the archaeological and skeletal facts from his book, but this evidence is probably not disputed anyway.


I am not sure of the relation between Dinarids and Keltic-Nordids. The head length & head height is much different.I think the difference can be explained in terms of the Keltic type (associated first with the Iron Age) being a mixture of Dinarid (Bronze Age invaders) and Atlanto-meds, the earlier Megalithic people, with the former in the majority (maybe about two to one).

I think a mixture of the two in these proportions would result in an average equating to the Keltic look, even though there would be a great deal of individual variation, with many individuals not conforming to the type at all.

The Bronze Age Dinarid wasn't high vaulted, it was probably on the lower end of medium, with a rather sloping forehead (not as much as the Keltic type though). My theory is that they have an inherent tendency to a low vault, but that combination with a flattened occiput means the vault ends up higher than it would otherwise be.

So I'm suggesting that if you get the genes for a basically Dinarid vault and forehead form, combined with the genes for a more projecting occiput and greater head length from the Atlanto-med (both of which are rather excessive in the latter type), the result will be mesocephaly, a low vault and very sloping forehead.

Certainly from what I've observed, people whose phenotype is essentially Dinarid often have a low vault and sloping forehead; there appears to be a correlation. But such individuals lack the flattened occiput, and they're less brachycephalic.

So the genes for this Keltic-like vault and forehead seem to come from a Dinarid source.

Sigurd
Monday, September 10th, 2007, 01:07 PM
I am not sure of the relation between Dinarids and Keltic-Nordids. The head length & head height is much different. Maybe Keltic-Nordids are a mix of Nordid and dinaricised Med (Baskid). It's a fairly consistent look, so presumably had time to stabilise and re-select from itself.

That could explain the considerable difference in look between Keltic Nordid as it is found on the British Isles and the Keltic Nordid that is common in Southern German regions, especially Franconia. It would make sense, also by historical migration, that one Keltic type was influenced by a Dinaricised Med, the other influenced by pure Dinarid.

OneEnglishNorman
Monday, September 10th, 2007, 01:13 PM
Yes; I don't have time to post long, but for example, Jurgen Klinsmann has more robust features than an English K-N.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/J%C3%BCrgen_Klinsmann_%28Confed-Cup_2005%29.JPG/450px-J%C3%BCrgen_Klinsmann_%28Confed-Cup_2005%29.JPG