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Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 06:58 AM
This is a better article than the one posted at Skadi on the same subject.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/4/1031

Europeans and people of European ancestry have a gene which allows them to digest milk sugar in adult life. In other people, this gene shuts down after childhood, so they are unable to drink milk without digestive problems. Northern Europeans have the highest percentages of this milk tolerant gene in adults. In Swedes, for instance, this approaches 100% of the population. This ability must date back to the Neolithic and some chance mutation. The new, mutated form spread along with keeping animals for milk. Perhaps this originated with the Sami. But for whatever reason, it is associated with the Germanic peoples who relied on cattle heavily as a source of meat and milk. The reason I mention all this is that milk and milk products are obviously an ancient part of our culture and heritage. The ability to digest milk gives us and other Europeans a big advantage in that it opens up a whole new food source which is closed to other peoples. It is no wonder that milk protein is also good for us. Some population figures on the ability to degest lactose.

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/5/904

Huzar
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:25 AM
Stature growth and muscle growth..........i drink milk since i was 8, and i had both, indeed :)


Well, thew article confirms a suspect i had......explain scientifically the connection between a kind of food and a populations. Perhaps there are other connections between race and food ? Who knows........

Flash Voyager
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:27 AM
Too bad my body doesn't tolerate lactose, otherwise I would be a milk drinker.



Well, thew article confirms a suspect i had......explain scientifically the connection between a kind of food and a populations. Perhaps there are other connections between race and food ? Who knows........

Indigenous populations on simple local diets do not show any symptoms of acne or any other skin diseases for that matter, but when introduced to western food they get it easily.

Huzar
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:29 AM
Too bad my body doesn't tolerate lactose, otherwise I would be a milk drinker.

Non-Euro genes ? :D

Oski
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:32 AM
My friend Erik is of swedish-russian heritage and is a body builder who is completely ripped, almost looks like :

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/jimbeamer/180px-Scott_Steiner.jpg

And all he uses is milk, no steroids.

Flash Voyager
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:36 AM
Non-Euro genes ? :D

No, i'm completely European. Anthropologically I'm for the most part Aurignacid(Atlantid and Corded-Nordid to be more specific) I also have other food allergies. I do care little about muscle building, anyway.

Ţórir
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 08:16 AM
About half the time I drink milk while the other half I drink whey protein. Whey protein is derived from milk but is a more concentrated form of the proteins and better digested and absorbed. Also some of those vitamins are not naturally present in the milk but are added to it- vitamins A and D. This is not a bad thing as the diet is usually deficient in these vitamins unless you take supplements. I usually drink 2% reduced fat milk. Does anyone know of any health advantages to whole milk verses the reduced fat kind?

Thusnelda
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 02:09 PM
I drink milk since I was a baby. ;) Even now, I get my "infusion" of milk daily. (May it be flakes with milk in the morning)

Deary
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Indigenous populations on simple local diets do not show any symptoms of acne or any other skin diseases for that matter, but when introduced to western food they get it easily.

However, western food products are usually processed, filled with preservatives, chemicals, and/or manufactured with genetic modifications which can be attributed to skin irritations and the like. Many people I talk to at the local natural food store explained they had acne/skin problems prior to switching to organic foods, and this was especially the case with milk as it is filled with unnecessary hormones. I also had the same issue.


I usually drink 2% reduced fat milk. Does anyone know of any health advantages to whole milk verses the reduced fat kind?

People are likely getting less fat than needed or thinking they need less fat than their body requires mainly due to fads supporting low fat diets. I'm petite (43kg) and my body needs at least 50-70 grams of fat per day. Most women and men require much more energy. I see nothing wrong with drinking whole milk. I know for women, drinking whole milk or consuming other whole milk products supposedly increases fertility. Whole milk is also very ideal for children. If you're interested in weight lifting, I would recommend drinking whole milk, as your body will be feeding off of fat for energy. I really don't think the difference in fat content of whole and reduced fat milk is significant enough to cause worries.

NUXiY
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 08:53 PM
I think I drink more milk than I usually should. I can drink milk to anything, and its the first thing I drink before work, first thing to drink after work and last thing to drink before going to sleep. But I can understand that this theory is correct, Im lazy as hell and eat very unhealthy, but I just getting stronger by the day :o

Sigurd
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 09:07 PM
Non-Euro genes ? :D

I'm somewhat intolerant to lactose as well. I can drink one glass of milk, but if it's any more than that, my stomach revolts, and it leaves my bother quicker than it had entered it.

I used to be a great drinker of milk, but ever since I had to take two different antibiotics for three consecutive weeks in summer 2006, I have been extremely intolerant to lactose.

Another reservation about milk, besides the fact that it is made for young calves, and that we are the only mammal that drinks milk beyond its infancy (and, as already pointed out, not even our own at that), is the fact that...well...ever wondered why people grow taller? Well, to me it's kind of obvious that if cattle receive growth hormones and we eat beef produced from their flesh or drink their milk, that these growth hormones don't suddenly evaporate ... ;)

I still think that the whole milk thing is too much of a hype. If at all, mothers should breastfeed theire children as long as they can, it's the only milk that is definitely healthy for us, and my mother having breastfed me until I was 14 months old has resulted in me having very few allergies (except for a slight allergy to dust - due to our over-domestic flat, and a stronger allergy to cucuma - due to my mother never eating curry back then). ;)

Sworen
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 10:58 PM
Lactose intolerance (also known as lactase non-persistence or hypolactasia) is another excellent example of adverse genome/diet interactions. Lactose intolerance limits the use of fresh milk (and milk products) among adults and produces a painful digestive condition commonly associated with nausea, cramps bloating, gas, and diarrhea. Epidemiological data shown in the table indicate that the frequency of lactose intolerance varies widely depending on geography, age, race and ethnicity (Table 1).

This website goes in depth on a lot of links between Race, Ethnicity, Country of Origin - Diet...

http://nutrigenomics.ucdavis.edu/nutrigenomics/index.cfm?objectid=968814F6-65B3-C1E7-0C7007B71CC9959A

Apparently there are still many Euro populations even Northern ones whose body weans itself, according to the literature, Swedes are close to 100% lactose tolerant... I drink up to a 1/2 gallon a day, it's one of my favorite drinks.
Got Milk?

Cuchulain
Thursday, August 9th, 2007, 06:51 AM
Another population which is largely lactose tolerant is the Masai of Africa, who rely almost entirely on cattle herding. The are also able to consume significant quantities of cow's blood. The Masai lctose tolerant trait evolved independantly from that of Northern Europenas.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, August 9th, 2007, 07:04 AM
For long there has been controversy surrounding milk consumption. It is in fact produced for calves so it might contain certain substances that are hazardous to man. But further research is needed of course.

Are you talking about hormones given to cattle to make them produce more milk? If so, I don't think this is a problem in Europe where such things are stricktly verboten. Recently, in the USA, it became possible to buy milk from cows which have not been given hormones in all major and small stores at least on the West Coast. Of course, I recommend this milk.

Regarding whole milk vs reduced fat milk, I once heard (but have no links) that the fat in milk is necessary for the body to process the calcium properly. This may just be a rumor or some incomplete study or just an urban legend, I don't know. Human milk is higher in fat than cows milk, though. Cows grow larger than humans and need more protein.

Vingolf
Thursday, August 9th, 2007, 09:11 AM
Recently, in the USA, it became possible to buy milk from cows which have not been given hormones in all major and small stores at least on the West Coast. Of course, I recommend this milk.
From an evolutionary point of view, this is important. The milk of our ancestors was of course very different from the milk of contemporary Europeans & Americans. According to evolutionary history, our Germanic ancestors started drinking milk max. 4-6000 years ago, which is very recent. Our bodies need, first and foremost, water, clean water.

Matamoros
Saturday, August 18th, 2007, 11:41 PM
My friend Erik is of swedish-russian heritage and is a body builder who is completely ripped, almost looks like :

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/jimbeamer/180px-Scott_Steiner.jpg

And all he uses is milk, no steroids.Maybe they feed steroids to the cows that make the milk... :p just joking!

I drink milk everyday too, with my cereal in the morning. It makes me grow big and strong! :cool:

Achtland
Sunday, August 19th, 2007, 02:07 AM
I've always loved cool fresh milk, not the pasturised or semi skimmed kind. I used to have fresh goats milk or cravendale. While I was pregnant this liking intensified to a craving milkfest so that I was having bottles and cartons of milk each day. I drank nothing else. The child within me demanded feeds. Milk needs to be used with caution though, as you don't want to reheat it or drink it stale.

Anfang
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:34 PM
I read somewhere that North Europeans have a gene that allows us to process milk products more than other people. For example Japanese have high rates of lactose intolerance. I don't just tolerate it. I love milk, Butter and cheese.I have to keep myself from overdosing.

I would like to ask, what is your dairy intake and how do you feel about dairy products?

Oswiu
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:42 PM
I was telling my Dad about lactose intolerance, and said that the Chinese don't do dairy products at all. Then a Chinaman came and sat near us in the hotel bar and started drinking a glass of milk. What's going on here?!?! I've seen maps of the genetic distribution for the enzyme production, and China's missed out, isn't it? I thought they even derided outsiders for smelling of cheese.

As I understood it, the adaptation comes with the selective pressures of an ancient pastoral lifestyle, such as that prevalent in much of northwestern Europe in late prehistory.

Pastoralists in Africa have come up with something identical, or similar (?) due to the same pressures. Pastoralists in northern Asia, like the Mongols, however, haven't this benefit, and have to process the dairy products accordingly. Perhaps they came more recently to this form of life. It would appear that the Huns learnt it from the European Scythians moving into central Asia.

I adore cheese. Especially Stilton with lots of mould and a hard rind to the edge. With Hovis biscuits or oatcakes, and port. And there's plenty of milk in my tea and coffee. I put it in pasta and cereals and allsorts. Couldn't live without dairy stuff!

Hersir
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:44 PM
I drink milk daily, ecological... Also use it for cooking.
Butter is used every day.
Sour cream and cheese is used often, but not every day.
Cream is used for desserts.

And some times use a yoghurt called "yoghurt naturel", it has no added taste or sugar, just natural... It's very good for your digestion and can be used as a replacement for sour cream in many dishes.

Guntwachar
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:51 PM
For Cheese and Country! that's my war shout right there... of course as a stereotype Dutchman I eat cheese every day and drink milk every day, how well I don't use much butter.

BeornWulfWer
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:52 PM
I don't really drink milk. I can't abide its taste. The only time I used to drink it, other than babyhood, was during my decadent billy days to restore the balance.

Cheese and butter on the other hand! :thumbup

I am often found in the fridge taking off progressively bigger bits of cheese till I'm full.
I would go and eat some now, but it is horrible organic stuff which I bought off an old bar-hag for next to nothing.

Well, it seemed a good idea at the time.

Hrodnand
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:53 PM
I drink milk daily, ecological... Also use it for cooking.
Butter is used every day.
Sour cream and cheese is used often, but not every day.
Cream is used for desserts.

The same here, though I also eat cheese every day.

Psychonaut
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:54 PM
I was telling my Dad about lactose intolerance, and said that the Chinese don't do dairy products at all.

I'm pretty sure that it's mostly a cultural thing for them. We asked our Chinese teachers about this a few times and were always told that they found it kind of barbaric to drink milk--this coming from people who eat pickled fetal mice. :|

Lyfing
Thursday, November 27th, 2008, 11:55 PM
I ain't the biggest milk drinker, but I cannot stay away from cheese.

I've always wondered if there ain't a connection between vitamin D being made by the body out of lactose and our depigmentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depigmentation)...?? ;)

Later,
-Lyfing

rainman
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:06 AM
Everybody is lactose tolerant when born. Thus babies drink milk. In lactose intolerant people the gene turns off in childhood. For others it may turn off in middle age and such. So you might become lactose intolerant in your twenties or thirties if you are non Nordic. A few rare tribes here and there also can take milk as mentioned.

People who are lactose intolerant can take pills and stuff now to help them digest it or take it in moderation. Everybody can digest milk, its just to what extent. So some are more intolerant than others. Usually those who are intolerant must limit intake and take their pill that has the enzymes to help break down the milk.

I also notice most non-whites have a taste for chicken but seldom eat deer, beef etc. I think it is because in the North raising animals is the primary way to eat, especially cows. All other people's mostly lived off chickens or small animals resembling chickens along with whatever vegetable diet they had.

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:21 AM
I’m very much a dairy person. Very much lactose tolerant. In the Netherlands, one of the most popular (and traditional) breakfasts and/or lunches is still the simple boterham met kaas (slice of bread with cheese). Often with a glass of milk.

http://www.maxhavelaar.nl/upload/magazine/Boterham-kaas.jpg

I drink a lot of milk, in the morning usually with cereals. I like cheese, but I'm not crazy about it either. Although komijnekaas (cumin cheese) is quite tasty.

I love romige karnemelk (creamy buttermilk), and every once in a while I forget about my male image, put on an apron and make a kwarktaart, which is basically a kind of cheese cake, only less cheesy and more milky.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/1601959462_1377337a94.jpg?v=0

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:23 AM
For Cheese and Country! thats my war shout right there... of course as a stereotype Dutchman i eat cheese every day and drink milk every day, how well i dont use much butter.

I think next I will set up a poll on sausages!

I love butter, and so do my kids. This is an expensive habit since European butter is so much better, so that is all i buy Drim, you will be happy to know people buy Dutch butter here in New York, it costs $7.50 a half Kilo.

I am now having kosher cream chesse with peaches. Almost yummy.

Sissi
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:23 AM
I took a screenshot of a table with lactose intolerance levels among populations.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8796/tolerancexj2.jpg


The prevalence of primary lactose deficiency varies according to race. In a review by Gudmand-Hoyer E in published on The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1994), it is lowest in Scandinavia and Northwest Europe (3-8%) and close to 100% in most of Southeast Asia. In Europe the frequency increases in the southern and eastern directions, reaching 70% in southern Italy and Turkey. There is also a high prevalence of lactose maldigestion in the people of Africa with the exception of cattle-raising nomads. Moreover, studies conducted by Scrimshaw and Murray and Sahi review the prevalence of lactose maldigestion globally. The prevalence is above 50% in South America, Africa, and Asia, reaching almost 100% in some Asian countries. In the United States, the prevalence is 15% among whites, 53% among Mexican-Americans and 80% in the Black population. In Europe it varies from around 2% in Scandinavia to about 70% in Sicily (see map below). Australia and New Zealand have prevalence of 6% and 9% respectively. In general, it can be stated that about two thirds of the world adult population is lactase non-persistent.

A map for Europe:

http://www.foodreactions.org/images/Eu_map.jpg

http://www.foodreactions.org/intolerance/lactose/prevalence.html

weland
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:33 AM
LACTOSE INTOLERANT: A DNA analysis on eight skeletons dating back nearly 6,000 years showed no evidence of a gene variant that would have allowed Neolithic Europeans to digest milk
© JOACHIM BURGER/UNIVERSITY OF MAINZ

In what they claim is the first direct evidence of the evolution of lactase-persistence (the ability to digest milk and other dairy foods), German and British researchers came up empty in their search for the gene variant that allows over 90 percent of northern Europeans to gulp down and properly digest milk. In many others around the world, lactose causes diarrhea and bloating, especially in adulthood.

Lactase persistence (also called lactose tolerance), the continued production of the enzyme lactase that breaks down the sugar lactose in milk, correlates heavily with populations currently or once based on dairy farming, estimated to have begun in Europe roughly 8,000 to 9,000 years ago. (Populations in the Middle East and northeastern Africa also have the ability to digest milk.) "There's pretty good evidence that it's the most strongly selected single gene variant in Europeans in the last 30,000 years," says Mark Thomas, a genetic anthropologist at University College London and co-author of a new study in this week's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Thomas, along with a team of scientists from the University of Mainz in Germany led by paleogeneticist Joachim Burger, searched for the gene variant that confers lactase persistence in most modern-day Europeans in eight samples from the skeletal remains of Europeans who lived during the Neolithic era along with one sample from the Mesolithic era. The Neolithic relics were carbon dated to between 5,000 and 5,840 years ago, while the Mesolithic remains date back almost 4,000 years. The samples were found in locations ranging from Germany to Lithuania.

According to the study, the ability to process lactose was not highly prevalent in the Neolithic era. In fact, the researchers did not find any trace of the gene variant in their samples. The total absence suggests that no more than about 40 percent of the population could possibly have been lactose tolerant 5,000 years ago—indicating that the ability to digest the milk sugar probably resulted from the advent of dairy farming.

"Eight thousand years, in evolutionary terms, is nothing, especially when a genotype frequency raises from close to 0 up to more then 70 percent and, in some areas of northern Europe, [to] even more than 90 percent," Burger says, adding he expected to find that some individuals were lactase-persistent. "The fact that we have found none demonstrates that positive selection was acting massively on prehistoric European populations and that the speed of the spread of the allele (gene variant) was enormous."

About 80 percent of the people in southern Europe now are lactose intolerant, which means that there was a relatively small window for the gene variant to have come into prevalence in northern Europe. Burger says he will study more populations in Eurasia to try to determine when the gene variant spiked in frequency. Thomas, on the other hand, plans to integrate these findings "into a full population computer simulation to try to understand the spread of farming, dairying and other population movement."

Sarah Tishkoff, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of Maryland, says that the new work highlights the potential of tying the findings of genetics and archeology together. She warns, however, that, "one of the limitations of doing ancient DNA work is the difficulty of obtaining enough nuclear DNA to look at large numbers of samples to determine differences among populations." She adds that going forward, analyzing a few samples from the same area and period of time may better hone the ancestral frequency of this gene variant.

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:38 AM
By the way, it's funny how some of the American Got milk? posters show minorities with milk mustaches. Nothing beats good old "race blindness". And I remember reading about this huge foreign aid fiasco, where tons and tons of milk powder were shipped to Third World countries before the organisers realised that the majority of the population was actually lactose intolerant.

Ah, and I see that according to Wikipedia the Dutch are the masters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group) when it comes to dairy.

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:47 AM
By the way, it's funny how some of the American Got milk? posters show minorities with milk mustaches. Nothing beats good old "race blindness". And I remember reading about this huge foreign aid fiasco, where tons and tons of milk powder were shipped to Third World countries before the organisers realised that the majority of the population was actually lactose intolerant.

Ah, and I see that according to Wikipedia the Dutch are the masters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group) when it comes to dairy.


This says 60% of Jews are lactose intolerant.

http://www.forward.com/articles/7447/

Nachtengel
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:48 AM
I drink only milk daily, the rest of the dairy products occasionally. I don't like sour cream. I love mozzarella with tomatoes and olive oil.

Oswiu
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:52 AM
http://www.foodreactions.org/images/Eu_map.jpg
Ooh, look at all those Wenden in the Ostmarken... ;)

Good to see that we Brits are the best, though. With fellow Ingvaeones not too far behind. :P

What are the symptoms of intolerance, though? Just feeling a bit sick?

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:54 AM
This says 60% of Jews are lactose intolerant.

http://www.forward.com/articles/7447/

It's funny how that article refers to lactose intolerance as a disorder and a disease, while I figured lactose tolerance was a skill. ;)

Sissi
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:55 AM
What are the symptoms of intolerance, though? Just feeling a bit sick?

Common symptoms are nausea, cramps, bloating, gas and diarrhea (http://www.healthscout.com/ency/68/762/main.html), which can begin between about 30 minutes to two hours after eating or drinking foods containing lactose. Many people who have never been diagnosed as lactose intolerant, or "lactase deficient," may notice that milk and other dairy products cause problems that do not occur when eating other foods. The severity of symptoms varies, depending on the amount of lactose each individual can tolerate.
http://www.healthscout.com/ency/68/196/main.html#SymptomsofLactoseIntolerance

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 12:57 AM
Ooh, look at all those Wenden in the Ostmarken... ;)

Good to see that we Brits are the best, though. With fellow Ingvaeones not too far behind. :P

What are the symptoms of intolerance, though? Just feeling a bit sick?

According to Wikipedia the symptoms are nausea, cramping, bloating, diarrhea, and flatulence.

And pssst, look above and see what I said about the Dutch being masters. ;)

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:00 AM
It's funny how that article refers to lactose intolerance as a disorder and a disease, while I figured lactose tolerance was a skill. ;)


Please make the map smaller, It is throwing off our screens.

Sie machten die Karte zu gross

Oswiu
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:06 AM
And pssst, look above and see what I said about the Dutch being masters. ;)
Filthy lies!

Please make the map smaller, It is throwing off our screens.

Sie machten die Karte zu gross
There is no map in his post.
Or do you mean the one in Sissi's?
That one automatically reduces itself in my browser. :shrug

And please check the rules about other languages outside of certain sections. Not much point doing it when you're only repeating yourself anyway.

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:13 AM
Filthy lies!

There is no map in his post.
Or do you mean the one in Sissi's?
That one automatically reduces itself in my browse. :shrug

And please check the rules about other languages outside of certain sections. Not much point doing it when you're only repeating yourself anyway.

I accidentaly posted to anleff. instead of to you.

Yes, that map, which is interesting. It does not reduce.

Hungarians and Gypsies also, like jews have large rates of lactose intolerance.

Good old Springer Verlag!

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k42444m44x504688/

Sissi
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:15 AM
If I make the version smaller the figures won't be viewable. The map reduces automatically in my browser too, so who wants to see the details just has to double click.

@Anfang, I can understand English very well. :)

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:26 AM
I love dairy products. Just had a nice glass of ice cold milk. :) Absolutely adore cheese of all kinds, although I'm not too partial of the French varieties. Swiss fondue is my favourite!! :thumbup I consume huge amounts of butter too. :D

QuietWind
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:50 AM
According to Wikipedia the symptoms are nausea, cramping, bloating, diarrhea, and flatulence.


The symptoms can also range from mild to severe, and an individual may also only have one of the symptoms. Lactose intolerance arises from the inability to digest lactose in the intestine.

I have known many white Americans who did not think they had lactose intolerance, yet they became gassy and bloated after consuming dairy. ;)



On a different note....

I absolutely love dairy. I love all cheeses. I like not only the taste, but the textures of the various cheeses. I love cream sauces, puddings, drinks, etc. But..... I have an allergy to dairy. It is sometimes the most difficult thing in the world. I sometimes can no longer resist and then I sneak a taste of something I am not allowed to have, knowing full well that I am going to be extremely ill shortly after. :D:| (A dairy allergy is different than lactose intolerance. I also can not have soy.)

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:57 AM
I forgot to vote in my own poll. I just corrected that.

As far as consumption, I drink at least a liter of milk per day and up to 1.5 liters.
I also like Goatmilk.
Cheese, aprox 3 times a week, and lots of butter, I make french toast (Pain Perdu) often, using huge amounts of milk and butter as well as cinnamon.

Hersir
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 03:08 AM
Have any of you tasted brunost (Norwegian brown goat cheese)? If so, what did you think about it?

http://www.brunost.ch/brunost-ost/bild/BRUNOST_2_89770a.jpg

http://www.slowtrav.com/blog/chiocciola/brunost1.jpg

The taste is caramelly and soft. In the US and Canada it can be bought in some supermarkets as "Ski Queen".



Brunost is a brown Norwegian whey cheese. The Norwegian name brunost means 'brown cheese'. The two most popular varieties in Norway are Gudbrandsdalsost, which means 'cheese from the Gudbrandsdal' (made from goat's milk cow's milk), and the more traditional version geitost, which simply means 'goat cheese', and which is wholly made from goat's milk. There are also regional varieties, which vary both in colour and taste, depending on how much caramel they contain. Geitost has a strong, sweet, yet somewhat sharp flavor with notes of caramel and goat's milk, while Gudbrandsdalsost is similar but more mellow in taste.

A mixture of milk, cream and whey is boiled carefully for several hours so that the water evaporates. The heat turns the milk sugar into caramel which gives the cheese its characteristic taste. It is ready for consumption as soon as it is packed in suitable sized blocks.

Teutonic
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 03:12 AM
I love milk and cheese.I remember as a kid drinking milk from my grandparents place, fresh milk from their milk cows. Sometimes now that I am working out again, I will drink 3.78 liters (1gallon) of milk a day, or in 2 days.The reason is, I mix my protein shakes with it.I know that is maybe to much, but I dont care.Milk,Water,Beer and juice is all I drink.

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 03:16 AM
Have any of you tasted brunost (Norwegian brown goat cheese)? If so, what did you think about it?

http://www.brunost.ch/brunost-ost/bild/BRUNOST_2_89770a.jpg

http://www.slowtrav.com/blog/chiocciola/brunost1.jpg

The taste is caramelly and soft. In the US and Canada it can be bought in some supermarkets as "Ski Queen".


Yes!
I have "Chistmas" without the jesus but *with* the Gjetost, haha!

Jonathan Eells
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 05:30 AM
We're pretty much crazy for milk in this household. We buy a lot of raw milk products, because there's a relatively local dairy that provides outstanding raw milk and cheese. Expensive as Hel, but I figure the money I'm spending on excellent nutrition is money I won't be spending on medical expenses later in life. My three children are all Milk Hounds. They're veritable Cheese-a-sauroses. Our favorite snack is cheddar with apples and sausages. LOTS of cheddar. Wash it all down with fresh cider, or a cold glass of milk. Milk is practically all my son wants to drink. What father would tell his son "no milk", anyway.

Hermelin
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 08:18 AM
I absolutely *love* milk :D! It has to be very cold, straight from the fridge :thumbup. I drink almost 1 liter of milk per day, sometimes even more :P. I also love other dairy products, especially hard cheese... oh, you're making me hungry :D!

Fortis_in_Arduis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 09:48 AM
I read somewhere that North Europeans have a gene that allows us to process milk products more than other people. For example Japanese have high rates of lactose intolerance. I don't just tolerate it. I love milk, Butter and cheese.I have to keep myself from overdosing.

I would like to ask, what is your dairy intake and how do you feel about dairy products?

Sorry to hear that you find it hard to digest dairy. I do not anymore. You can employ some tricks to make your digestive fire (agni) strong enough to digest dairy products.

Why not look up the ayurvedic recommendations?

It is an old religion and Indo-European so it might suit you.

Ok I have some tips for you:

Avoid hard cheeses, cold milk, ice cream.

Try lassi or ayran (diluted yoghurt type drinks) you can add some sugar or salt.

Boiled milk, as in cafe latte etc. is easier to digest than milk straight from the fridge.

Mild fresh cheeses are better for one, and also remind one less of week old smegma than do hard cheeses.

Allenson
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:29 PM
I don't know for sure (not having had my genome examined, meaning) but I seem to be lactose tolerant.

I eat a lot of cheese personally, although I don't drink nearly the milk that I used to. Now, I basically only have milk in my coffee and cereal. I'm also a big fan of cream cheese, sour cream, butter (yum!), etc., etc.

I grew up and still live in a dairying region--although, there aren't nearly the dairy farms around here that there used to be. The most popular cows here in Vermont are Holsteins (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/c/c1/500px-Friesian-Holstein.jpg), Jerseys (http://www.f-a-r-m.org/images/KisstheJersey.jpg) and Guernseys (http://www.fourh.umn.edu/mndairy/2005/Guernsey_cow.jpg).

I worked on a dairy farm for a couple of years back when I was a high schooler.

Blood_Axis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:40 PM
I read somewhere that North Europeans have a gene that allows us to process milk products more than other people.

This statement needs a little classification, as not all North Europeans are Germanic same as not all Germanics are North Europeans.

What exactly is your hypothesis here?

That northern Europeans, or that germanics in general, are more receptive to lactose?

Because in the first case we'd have to look into geographical dietary factors (relating to what has available for eating up there, as well as how modern dietary habits are now shaping in these societies), and in the second case we'd have to look primarily into the genome of the germanic populations. :)

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:49 PM
This statement needs a little classification, as not all North Europeans are Germanic same as not all Germanics are North Europeans.

What exactly is your hypothesis here?

That northern Europeans, or that germanics in general, are more receptive to lactose?

Because in the first case we'd have to look into geographical dietary factors (relating to what has available for eating up there, as well as how modern dietary habits are now shaping in these societies), and in the second case we'd have to look primarily into the genome of the germanic populations. :)


I recomend you read the whole thread, this is covered in great detail;)

My Thesis when I posted it was that I liked milk and was wondering if other germanics liked it too. Do you love gala?

Blood_Axis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 01:53 PM
I hate gala (milk :P) and it's smell.

However I do love all kinds of dairy products: cheese, yoghurt, butter, icecream! Hence it's probably not due to lactose intolerance but more likely personal preference :)

Fortis_in_Arduis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:04 PM
I hate gala (milk :P) and it's smell.

However I do love all kinds of dairy products: cheese, yoghurt, butter, icecream! Hence it's probably not due to lactose intolerance but more likely personal preference :)

The more digestible forms of milk are yoghurt, mild fresh cheeses and butter.

Milk raw, unboiled and unspiced, is for the truly lactose tolerant, not the nasal-bunged masses who are beset with mucus, like me and Anfang.

Ice-cream is naughty but nice, which is why vaidyas and ayurvedic cooks make their ice-cream and their milk puddings from condensed milk, not cream, which brings on a mucus avalanche, as it increases kapha, the dense heavy quality in nature; water and earth elements.

However, kapha in moderate doses does have a use:

Milk boiled with sugar, saffron, cardomom and cinnamon and a large spoonful of ghee, is my favourite bedtime drink, but I have no-one to make it for me. :~(

It brings on kapha, and soothes vata and pitta.

Love,

Fortis.

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:15 PM
This statement needs a little classification, as not all North Europeans are Germanic same as not all Germanics are North Europeans.


No, but most North Europeans are Germanics, and most Germanic nations are located in northern Europe and adjacent areas. ;) "Northern European" and "Germanic" are almost synonymous in practical terms, the most significant variation being the Finns. But you're intelligent, and don't need a geography lesson from me. ;)

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:18 PM
I worked on a dairy farm for a couple of years back when I was a high schooler.

:)

I worked for a dairy factory in my early years after school. We were allowed to take as much dairy products as we could consume personally. Therefore, every day I drank at least a litre and a half of milk, quite often a lot more, and a litre of yoghurt too. :thumbup

Blood_Axis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:25 PM
No, but most North Europeans are Germanics, and most Germanic nations are located in northern Europe and adjacent areas. ;) "Northern European" and "Germanic" are almost synonymous in practical terms, the most significant variation being the Finns. But you're intelligent, and don't need a geography lesson from me. ;)
One one hand, Finns and Lapps are in the north of Europe (one could claim that also Russians and Baltics are also in the north of Europe), and on the other hand, southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland for example, are in central Europe, and there is a vast number of germanics outside of Europe! :P
Hence the clarification I asked for, and I don't consider 'northern' and 'germanic' synonymous, but rather as highly correlated.

And this clarification was important in this thread alone, as the traditional dietary habits of, e.g. Icelanders and Finns, are more similar than those of Icelanders and Bavarians, and that is due to geographical location and availability of certain types of food and scarcity of others. ;)
Thanks for the geography lesson, anyway! :P

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:33 PM
No, but most North Europeans are Germanics, and most Germanic nations are located in northern Europe and adjacent areas. ;) "Northern European" and "Germanic" are almost synonymous in practical terms, the most significant variation being the Finns. But you're intelligent, and don't need a geography lesson from me. ;)

Sometimes you get tired of saying "germanic germanic germanic " so we can also use 'North European.
Since jews control a lot of the media, including TV newspapers magazines news and magazines online, etc, somethings are said different here than in Europe.
The Word Germanic in not Used in the US because, remember= "germans bad jews good" So our friends only use North European when they mean Germanic. The last thing that the they want the Swedes and Norsk descendants in the USA to know is that they are Germanic. Do you think they know as a group? No. It almost feels as if they share a brain and all their words and actions are structured to take away our collective power.In almost every nook and cranny of our lives.

The map psted and the links included will give you an idea of the lactose intolerance in differnt nations..

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:37 PM
One one hand, Finns and Lapps are in the north of Europe (one could claim that also Russians and Baltics are also in the north of Europe), and on the other hand, southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland for example, are in central Europe, and there is a vast number of germanics outside of Europe! :P
Hence the clarification I asked for, and I don't consider 'northern' and 'germanic' synonymous, but rather as highly correlated.

And this clarification was important in this thread alone, as the traditional dietary habits of, e.g. Icelanders and Finns, are more similar than those of Icelanders and Bavarians, and that is due to geographical location and availability of certain types of food and scarcity of others. ;)
Thanks for the geography lesson, anyway! :P

You're complicating matters unnecessarily here. :P

The fact is, even the ancestors of Austrian and Swiss Germans originally came from far Nothern Europe during the Germanic Volkerwanderung.

Blood_Axis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:44 PM
You're complicating matters unnecessarily here. :P

The fact is, even the ancestors of Austrian and Swiss Germans originally came from far Nothern Europe during the Germanic Volkerwanderung.
Indeed, but we're not talking about antiquity here, but modern dietary habits, and those differ more among germanics than among northern europeans of germanic and non-germanic origins, let alone among germanics in Europe germanics that live outside of Europe.
Compare the dietary habits of a German to those of an American or an Australian of german descent, and you'll see what I mean. :)

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Indeed, but we're not talking about antiquity here, but modern dietary habits, and those differ more among germanics than among northern europeans of germanic and non-germanic origins, let alone among germanics in Europe germanics that live outside of Europe.
Compare the dietary habits of a German to those of an American or an Australian of german descent, and you'll see what I mean. :)

Sure :) Since this is a genetic adaptation, this is probably not affected significantly by recent dietary variation though.

Lactose intolerance by group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:53 PM
Lactose intolerance by group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)

From this data it seems that Germanic Northern Europeans are far more lactose tolerant than the Finns. Thus, it would appear to be a Germanic development (to answer your question). It is common knowledge that Northern Germanics are of more exclusive Germanic heritage than the Germanic nations more to the south, hence the lower frequency of tolerance in countries such as Switzerland and Austria.

I would call this specialization Nordic-Germanic.

Anfang
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Sure :) Since this is a genetic adaptation, this is probably not affected significantly by recent dietary variation though.

Lactose intolerance by group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)

If people would read the thread......

They would find out that the gene was acquiered 5 to 6000 years ago, and we were freezing our asses off in Scandinavia. So yes Loki. Want some ice cream?

links...

Sigurd
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I would call this specialization Nordic-Germanic.

I would just call the specialisation Nordid. ;)

Basically what we are talking about is the fact that I remember a thread about the idea that many Cro-Magnid types had a lesser tolerance to lactose. As such, the largely instabile and newer strain of Nordids, a Neolithic addition to the subracial pedigree might have developed at a point when lactose tolerance was already becoming more common. We find this echoed by the fact that both the Asiatic and Negroid races are arguably more archaic, and have an even lesser tolerance of lactose. ;)

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I would just call the specialisation Nordid. ;)


Sure, although the argument I am making is that intolerance is more pronounced among Finns, many of whom are of Nordic race, and also a lot higher among Slavs -- again a percentage of whom are Nordic. Of course one can reason that the Nordic Finns and Slavs may be lactose tolerant. There is no way to confirm this however, unless a study is made which would include both phenotype and ethnicity. So you may or may not be right. :)

Fortis_in_Arduis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 04:17 PM
Well, I have two intolerances: dairy and green beans (french beans). I sent a sample of my blood away to be tested against over 500 foodstuffs.

I was convinced that Anfang said that he had a similar problem after he mentioned 'overdosing', because that is exactly what happens to me.

I love dairy products, and I learnt, through ayurveda, how to make my digestive fire strong so that I can digest dairy products easily.

Could it be degrees of intolerance? I am not someone who falls unwell, unless I give into temptation and eat a huge amount of cold double cream.

My records to date have been:

Eating seven bowls of strawberries and cream at a Christening.

Devouring (no other word would suffice) twenty-two profiteroles which I had just made myself. My competitor, Olivia, feel sick to the floor at a diminutive eleven, although her choux pastry was much better than mine. :P

I think we can be addicted to foods we have an intolerance of and that is how we end up overdosing. Thoughts?

Such statistics on food intolerances lend further weight to my concern that racial classification must be based upon genotype, not phenotype, because these facts have serious implications for us in reinventing our ethnocultures.

Should we not live with people with whom we can share our food?

Thusnelda
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 04:30 PM
Milk and milk products? Interesting question! :) And I can offer a clear answer:

Yes, I love it! :D *g*

I´ve grown up with milk and its products my whole life. Milk is an important part of the regional kitchen here in our rural area. And our family is in the lucky position to receive most of the milk directly from local dairy farmers. But you can´t use untreated milk for every meal, sometimes it´s better you use the treated one from the supermarket. Untreated milk may taste very uncommon for people who only received milk from a supermarket in the past, yet untreated milk is more natural and consists of more biological contents.

My normal morning starts with a glass of cacao instead of coffee. And sometimes I just eat fruit-muesli with lots of milk. :)
I love chesse (Tilsiter, Appenzeller, Edamer) and yoghurt, too. I prefer fruit-yoghurt with strawberries, blackberries or cherries instead of pure yoghurt, anyway.

On a hot summer day nothing can be better than an ice-cold jar of ice-coffee with chocolade crumbles and vanilla ice! :thumbup

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 05:57 PM
I would just call the specialisation Nordid. ;)

Basically what we are talking about is the fact that I remember a thread about the idea that many Cro-Magnid types had a lesser tolerance to lactose. As such, the largely instabile and newer strain of Nordids, a Neolithic addition to the subracial pedigree might have developed at a point when lactose tolerance was already becoming more common. We find this echoed by the fact that both the Asiatic and Negroid races are arguably more archaic, and have an even lesser tolerance of lactose. ;)


If this is true, then how do you explain that the Dutch are by far the least lactose intolerant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)? I mean, the Dutch aren't the epitome of "Nordidness".

Loki
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 06:03 PM
If this is true, then how do you explain that the Dutch are by far the least lactose intolerant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)? I mean, the Dutch aren't the epitome of "Nordidness".

Don't underestimate the Dutch! ;) The Netherlands, especially north of the Rhine, is among the most Germanic of areas in Europe -- and also judged as among the most Nordic. The thing about this area is that it has been inhabited exclusively by Germanic people from a very early stage of the Volkerwanderung.

Fortis_in_Arduis
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 06:09 PM
If this is true, then how do you explain that the Dutch are by far the least lactose intolerant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Lactose_intolerance_ by_group)? I mean, the Dutch aren't the epitome of "Nordidness".

Ah, but they might be one of the least Cro-Magnoid, and one of the most arable agricultural, as opposed to livestock agricultural?

In my mind

Cro-Magnoid = livestock farming, not arable farming, lactose intolerance

and

Nordoid = lactose tolerant, arable farming, less livestock farming

In my mind this is the greater divider in Northern Europe:

The patriarchal Nordic culture and the more matriarchal Cro-Magnoid culture.

Anlef
Friday, November 28th, 2008, 06:35 PM
Don't underestimate the Dutch! ;) The Netherlands, especially north of the Rhine, is among the most Germanic of areas in Europe -- and also judged as among the most Nordic. The thing about this area is that it has been inhabited exclusively by Germanic people from a very early stage of the Volkerwanderung.

Yes, Nordic, but Nordid? ;)

Perhaps our Cromagnid-variant just looks more northern.

Anfang
Saturday, November 29th, 2008, 01:04 AM
Not to forget the 68% of European Jews and 56% of European gypsies who are lactise Intolerant.Since these have been in europe for a long time, It sort of rules out other factors such as diet.

Morning Wolf
Saturday, November 29th, 2008, 01:15 AM
I love dairy products, but especially milk, whip cream, and white cheeses, and even sour cream which I didn't use to like very much.

beowulf wodenson
Sunday, November 30th, 2008, 09:10 PM
I drink 'gallons' of milk, always have consumed a wide range of dairy products. :thumbup The wife and my son are mildly lactose intolerant. Gives them...digestive issues, lol. :D

Nachtengel
Thursday, September 10th, 2009, 11:04 PM
by Kathryn Hadley

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KM4BaB8DTMk/SqD6QISIzEI/AAAAAAAABw8/Stn7cCLNShk/s400/milk.JPG

It was previously believed that milk drinking began in dairy farming communities in northern Europe. Through a process of natural selection to compensate for vitamin D deficiencies due to a lack of daylight, communities in northern Europe were believed to have undergone a genetic mutation which enabled them produce the enzyme lactase necessary to digest the milk sugar lactose. The production of lactase is a characteristic known as lactase persistence. Although the majority of Europeans produce lactase throughout their life, most adults worldwide do not produce the enzyme lactase. However, the latest research by scientists from University College London has revealed that this genetic mutation first occurred, instead, in dairy farming communities in central Europe 7,500 years ago, in the region between the central Balkans and central Europe.

According to previous studies, dairying developed in south-eastern Europe soon after the arrival of farming. Milk proteins have been discovered, for example, in present-day Romania and Hungary in ceramic vessels which date back between 7,900 and 7,450 years. Traces of fats have also suggested that dairying began in England some 6,100 years ago. It is believed that Germanic and Celtic people practiced cattle dairying and drank significant amounts of fresh milk, however, it is most likely that milk was first used to make cheese, butter and yoghurt rather than drunk fresh.

Professor Mark Thomas, UCL Genetics, Evolution and Environment, explained:


‘Most Europeans continue to produce lactase throughout their life, a
characteristic known as lactase persistence. In Europe, a single genetic change
(13,910*T) is strongly associated with lactase persistence and appears to have
given people with it a big survival advantage. Since adult consumption of fresh
milk was only possible after the domestication of animals, it is likely that
lactase persistence co-evolved with the cultural practice of dairying, although
it was not known when it first arose in Europe or what factors drove its rapid
spread. Our study simulated the spread of lactase persistence and farming in
Europe, and found that lactase persistence appears to have begun around 7,500
years ago between the central Balkans and central Europe, probably among people
of the Linearbandkeramik culture. But contrary to popular belief, we also found
that a need for dietary vitamin D was not necessary to explain why lactase
persistence is common in northern Europe today.’

The results of the study were published last week in the journal PLoS Computational Biology in ‘The Origins of Lactose Persistence in Europe’ by Yuval Itan, Adam Powell, Mark Beaumont, Joachim Burger and Mark Thomas. The article is available on the website of PLoS Computational Biology. http://www.ploscompbiol.org/
Picture:
Map showing origin of milk drinking in Europe (UCL)

Source: http://historytodaymagazine.blogspot.com/2009/09/short-history-of-milk-drinking.html

Hauke Haien
Thursday, September 10th, 2009, 11:50 PM
There are several forms of lactose maldigestion. In primary or adult-type lactose malabsorption, lactase activity is high at birth, decreases in childhood and adolescence, and remains low in adulthood. This primary hypolactasia is also called lactase nonpersistence and is the normal (physiologic) situation for mammals and humans. With the exception of the population of Northern and Central Europe and its offspring in America and Australia, 70–100% of adults worldwide are lactose malabsorbers. The prevalence of primary lactose maldigestion is 3–5% in Scandinavia, 17% in Finland, 5–15% in Great Britain, 15% in Germany, 15–20% in Austria, 17% in northern France, 65% in southern France, 20–70% in Italy, 55% in the Balkans, 70–90% in Africa (exeptions: Bedouins, 25%; Tuareg, 13%; Fulani, 22%), 80% in Central Asia, 90–100% in Eastern Asia, 30% in northern India, 70% in southern India, 15% in North American whites, 80% in North American blacks, 53% in North American Hispanics, and 65–75% in South America.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/421S

InvaderNat
Friday, September 11th, 2009, 12:52 AM
but, but, but....race doesn't exist! were all exactly the same, just different colours you nazi, fascist, baby-eater.:D

Hauke Haien
Friday, September 11th, 2009, 10:07 PM
This has little to do with the typological race concept. Human biodiversity is not controversial, it is just that they want to flatten it to a global average, because the only thing that in their minds justifies social barriers against this scheme is - surprisingly - race.

Lactase persistence had previously been associated with TRB territory, where it is nearly universal. If the origin now seems to be in LBK territory, why does it not have the highest frequency there? The article dismisses a need for dietary vitamin D as a possible explanation for the high frequency in the north.

What I find very interesting, though, is the north-south divide in France and India.

Ralf
Monday, February 15th, 2010, 09:11 PM
I was getting a bad stomach from the cows milk on my morning breakfast cereals, I tried Goats milk instead which has improved my condition a great deal.

There is also the other issue of cows milk, having so many growth hormones, that said hormones encourage the growth of cancer.

SpearBrave
Thursday, February 18th, 2010, 01:15 PM
^ I have had the same problem with milk in the past. We then started getting our milk,butter, and cheese from a local Amish family. The milk is not pasteurized or homogenized. The Amish don't use hormones on their cows and there are no additives in the milk. I grew up drinking milk straight from the cow so it was no big deal for me. The only difference is that the milk is richer and you have to shake it up before you use it. My stomach problems have gone away and I feel better.

indoroids
Saturday, January 15th, 2011, 05:16 AM
muscle growth because muscle cell damage in minor scale because of hard work (body)
milk (protein) is only material that body needed to create new replacement muscle cell
testosterone command your brain to replace damaged cell with new one, using milk as raw material to build such cell