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Dr÷mmarnas Stig
Saturday, March 10th, 2007, 04:53 PM
What is handsdown the best Martial Art to defeat multiple attackers at the same time?

Most will simply dismiss BJJ for instance (triangle choke while two other guys soccer kick the fuck out of your skull).
That's utter nonsense in my book.

Let's take an armbar for instance. Who says that an armbar takes 20 seconds before the opponent taps out?
In a streetfight against multiple opponents it might actually be quite useful.
Lightning fast takedown, armbar. Now, the armbar in a streetfight would obviously not be performed with any regard for the attacker's health.
Instead it would be applied to break his f***** arm in 1 second. Shouldn't be a problem to do that against a regular guy.
Now that guy is out for good, focus on his friends...

BJJ might not be ideal against multiple attackers, but it's certainly not the worst idea.

----------------------

Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Aikido and so on immediately come to mind.

Are they better than BJJ and Wrestling though?
If a boxer faces 4 opponents and one of them goes for a takedown then what?

I guess the best suited defence against multiple attackers would be to study a stand-up MA like Muay Thai and a grappling based one like BJJ.
The grappling based MA should have an emphasis on joint-manipulation (preferably small-joint ones like fingers), wrestling might be the best 1 one 1 technique, but it lacks quick "killer techniques".

-------------------------------

What is your opinion?
BTW. the topic assumes that no weapons (neither knives nor guns) are involved.

Peer
Sunday, March 25th, 2007, 05:54 PM
Thebest Martial Arts against multiple agressors?

Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee :D

Peer

Engelbrecht
Sunday, March 25th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Kyokushin. Go for leader first. Aim for the genitals and the nose, if possible also the knees. Strike first, and think more about attaking then on defence. With adrenaline running through your veins pain will be the small problem to handle.

Mazorquero
Tuesday, March 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Tae-kwon-do is a quite "fast" martial art, because it requires a very agile body, uses the legs as a very important weapon. Fast long distance attacks are the key, with considerable strength, so you will be able to keep your oponents far from you and at the same time connect many kicks and some punches in their bodies and faces.
Original Okinawan karate is based in the same principle, only one hit to knock down your oponent, so at first karate and tae-kwon-do would be my choices (I've seen how experienced black belts face many oponents at the same time and win).
I'm not sure if "pasive" martial arts like aikido, judo or jiu-jitsu would be effective against many enemies, because they are based in blocking and other maneuvres which are perfect for one-on-one combat, but I'm not sure about multiple attacks. Ninjutsu has a bit of both groups of martial arts, so if somebody can explain a bit more about it, perhaps we'll find it as a good candidate.

Airmanareiks
Wednesday, March 28th, 2007, 01:11 AM
Depends on your strengths.
Boxing. If your leg is caught, its almost over.
With boxing you can KO an opponent in seconds and move onto the next by creating space.
Although, a leg kick you are at a greater distance, the leg kick only usually works against a fatigued opponent (face kick) whereas a body kick to legs or side only does minor damage and thus would not be recommended.

You would want to take out an opponent as quickly as possible and move onto the next. Spacing is key. Take them out one by one.

Ground fighting only works one a single combat situation.

Mac Seafraidh
Wednesday, March 28th, 2007, 01:53 AM
Boxing or Shoot fighting.

Huzar
Tuesday, August 7th, 2007, 10:52 AM
How many of us practice fighting sports/activities ?


About me i regularly practice BOXING (but i'll do early MUAY thai).

I'm interested in Kyokushin Karate and Jeet Kune do.

:hve­rungur:
Tuesday, August 7th, 2007, 09:10 PM
I've done Muay Thai in the past, some boxing and Kyokushin, strangly enough. Bare knuckle kyokushin karate will toughen up your body for sure. It's all full contact, no head shots. If you get a chance to train in it I'd say go for it... first few WEEKS are all stretching though :D

Huzar
Tuesday, August 7th, 2007, 09:18 PM
I've done Muay Thai in the past, some boxing and Kyokushin, strangly enough. Bare knuckle kyokushin karate will toughen up your body for sure. It's all full contact, no head shots. If you get a chance to train in it I'd say go for it... first few WEEKS are all stretching though :D


Ok........i was sure Kyokushin being one of the hardest and more affective martial arts.

But i believe Muay is even more destructive.......;)

:hve­rungur:
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 12:26 PM
Muay Thai is destructive but so is Kyokushinkai Karate, it all depends on the people who are using it. Andy Hug in his prime beat many of the worlds best Muay Thai fighters in K-1, same with Francisco Filho. I don't believe there is one ultimate fighting style, only styles suited to specific people. IMO it is best to cross train for self defence / fighting. A good wrestling base is always the best to start with, followed by Boxing with Submission Grappling then Muay Thai and other "striking" arts.

Huzar
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Muay Thai is destructive but so is Kyokushinkai Karate, it all depends on the people who are using it. Andy Hug in his prime beat many of the worlds best Muay Thai fighters in K-1, same with Francisco Filho. I don't believe there is one ultimate fighting style, only styles suited to specific people.


I agree. There is no one specific martial art. You should find the one who adapt most to your body, style, personality etc.....


I practice Boxing (2 years), and i know enough wrestling principles.

Question : in your personal experience, what kind of Personality/attitude and phisic charachteristic adapts better to Kyokushin practice and what personality/attitude and physical charachteristic fits well with THAI practice ?

Boche
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 06:41 PM
I'm interessted in Muay-Thai - but i decided to get more muscles before i try this out.


Else i'm just experienced in usual german boxing/fighting. ;)




Gru▀,
Boche

Huzar
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 06:50 PM
I'm interessted in Muay-Thai - but i decided to get more muscles before i try this out.



grow up, then ! ;) you need a muscluar armour to start THAI.......i know well...






Else i'm just experienced in usual german boxing/fighting. ;)


Would be ? some kind of "street" fight ?







Gru▀,
Boche[/QUOTE]

Boche
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 06:54 PM
grow up, then ! ;) you need a muscluar armour to start THAI.......i know well...

I'm on my way since a few months. But due to chronical disease it takes longer for me, hehe.





Would be ? some kind of "street" fight ?



Nothing exciting - usual Street/Pubfights - Stuff you learn simply with trouble-experiences. ;)




Gru▀,
Boche

Ferryman
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 07:12 PM
I'm interessted in Muay-Thai - but i decided to get more muscles before i try this out.


Else i'm just experienced in usual german boxing/fighting. ;)




Gru▀,
Boche

You don't need to get any muscles for MT! Just go try it out and if you dig it you're better of skinny since it's a weight class sport.

Huzar
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 09:09 PM
Running is more important than muscles effectively.............someoen of you practice Jogging ?

Sigurd
Wednesday, August 8th, 2007, 09:11 PM
I used to do some Tae Kwon Do when I was younger, and intend to pick that up again this autumn. Apart from that, once I'm more in shape, I intend to do Thaiboxing as well... :P

:hve­rungur:
Thursday, August 9th, 2007, 08:31 PM
Sorry for not replying sooner, I hadn't checked this thread for replys to my posts.



Question : in your personal experience, what kind of Personality/attitude and phisic charachteristic adapts better to Kyokushin practice and what personality/attitude and physical charachteristic fits well with THAI practice ?

You need to be able to take your pain and put it into the back of your head. Especially in Kyokushin and Muay Thai because there will be many a time you will throw a kick and someone will too and when your bare shins meet for the very first time it hurts like you couldn't imagine. It's usually best to condition your shins in both arts. Kicking the heavy bag and rolling a baseball bat with some pressure on your shins works as well, but you'll learn more about that from your trainers if you take them up anyways.

Also in Kyokushin, there is no head contact and sometimes people view that as a sign of weakness in the art but as you will learn in muay thai as well (if you have a good instructor) it is always better to go to the legs and body before the head. Both arts stress a "Take out the body and the head will follow" philosophy.

If you've ever seen ex MMA fighter now trainer Bas Rutten fight in his glory days, he utilized something from his old Kyokushin karate training days and that was a body (liver) strike. It does not matter how big or strong someone you are facing off with is, if you hit them with a good body shot, they are going down.

I will say that in Kyokushin, if you are a taller, more muscular guy this works to your advantage since most Kyokushin matches are held in a small circle so it is basically constant punches (below the neck) and kicks to score points. Also in a real life / non compition fight, all you need to do is throw a nice hook to the liver of anyone trying to attack or start a fight with you, they'll go down without a fight and you can get away.

If I could go back in time and choose one art to train and train only, it would be Kyokushin. It has more of a stress on explosive power where as traditional Muay thai is more the art of compiling strike after strike until your opponent is worn down.


I'm interessted in Muay-Thai - but i decided to get more muscles before i try this out.

Actually if you're tall and lanky you'll be better off then if you were really muscular. You need to be very flexible in Muay thai and with thai boxing you'll be throwing a lot of strikes, knees, kicks, punches and elbows (depending on where you train, usually elbows are reserved for ring fights and are not practiced so much in sparring, at least in my experience). Muscles also eat up more oxygen and get you tired easilly, unless you have amazing cardio then you can afford to be very muscular.

wanttolearn
Wednesday, May 13th, 2009, 12:03 AM
My first real post here, mostly here to learn. This topic is something I have experience with. Krav Maga is probably one of the most practical martial arts out there especially in situations against multiple attackers. I am not young but have still used this in situations against would be muggers and kept my cell phone, wallet and life.

rainman
Wednesday, May 13th, 2009, 03:06 AM
I've been in fights with multiple attackers. Unless you are extremely good and they suck balls you aren't going to win. It would be best to hit one of them and run. To beat 3 people you don't need to be 3 times better than them you need to be about 10 times better than any one of them. To defeat 4 people at once you need to be about 20 times better. The only case I've ever known of someone taking down multiple attackers was a guiy who was a martial arts instructor and professional kickboxer take down 3 street thugs (whom I doubt were good fighters). This guy wakes up and runs 5 miles a day, lifts weights, can take a hit etc. Sure bruce lee can maybe take down 4 average joes but unless you are in pro athlete condition and have trained for 5 years you might as well stop being delusional that some "style" can suddenly make you so much better than the people you are taking on.

It just doesn't make sense to stand and fight multiple attackers. You main objective should be to get to safety. And I would never assume that someone doesn't have a weapon on the street.

Almost all the fighting stlyles and training at commercial schools are crap. To truly train in self defense you have to find people to train with privately who are willing to train realistically. When you train in realistic fighting there isn't a whole lot of variation. The chinese military trains pretty similarly to the U.S. military, as do the Russians and any other nation worth their salt. The reason why is because they want to win. The soldiers also want to stay alive when attacked (or at least take down their enemy). It is real. Now let's take some Tae Kwon Do school in the suburbs. Pretty much nobody in there has seen any real violence or life threatening situation (including the instructor) or if they have very little of it. For god knows what reason they refuse to do any realistic self defense training and pretend that they are badasses.

I'll just give an example:

if you really want to train realistically put some gloves and gear on and really try to attack each other. Most people find this hard to do- they do not want to hurt another human being. But start thinking what if this was a real attack. Have the person really attack you. Can you defend yourself?

Most of these schools the people in it never even take a punch. Never once. How will they respond to pain in a real fight? Probably they will be stunned by it and loose as a result of minimal injury throwing them off. What about fear and danger? has any of them experienced real stress and a fearful situation? No. When they are really faced with danger they will freeze up and therefore be ineffective. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to start thinking about how to be realistic with your training. But at practically all schools I've went to they think that is going a little too far to actually train in real self defense. They call what they do self defense but its really a hobby and what they teach you is mostly ineffective and useless in any real dangerous situation.

The only people I've ever seen who train realistically are like ex-military. Maybe ex-cops if they served in a very dangerous city or something. The second best would be people who have done kick boxing, mma or other sports where the people are actually hitting you and actually trying to win. At least they have some prospective on whats real. Other than that most of these instructors have you memorize 1,000 different fancy techniques and then have you kick and punch the air for a while along with doing some stretches and that's pretty much all the training involves. No matter how cool of a kick you can do or how nice your form looks its rather useless without any realistic training to go along with it.

Wrestling really isn't much better. It is slightly better because you actually have to work with a partner and get some tiny sense of realism. Thus your judo and such has a drop of use. But here again you usually just throw someone around who is being compliant and letting you throw him. You aren't really engaged in a struggle against someone trying to hurt you or engaging in realistic scenarios. For example, you put on a gi to train in. Yet you will be attacked while in street clothes. The insistance on a uniform is the first dead give away that the training is not realistic. Yes in the army you train in army clothes, but you also fight in army clothes. Just a few pointers.

How to start training for real:

You have to stress yourself and put yourself through real danger. In the military they have people jump out of helicopters, and go into a room filled with toxic gas which they must breath then put on a gas mask and run out. If you look up the Russian neo-nazis on youtube they train for real. They build a wood structure for you to climb over and then set it on fire and have people climb over it while in flames. They have people crawl under real barbed wire where you really get cut if you fuck up. Then they actually punch at each other and fight without gloves on. This sh*t will prepare you for a real fight more than any of these fancy pants martial art schools you go to. But you can see them doing some of that training on the various documentaries and stuff made about them.

Second key training is rather simple. Reaction drills. You have someone come at you like they are going to punch you (but they stop just short of hitting your or make light contact- it's not to hurt you but for training purposes) you then block and counter and practice doing that over and over. You can find a martial art style you like and a use a block counter technique from that, and vary it to fit what is effective for you but do that ten times each on each side of the body (both hands) each time you train. Go through all the basic attack motions (striaight punch, round punch, overhand strike etc.).

Then the other way is you simulate real scenarios. If you want to train against multiple attackers put on some gloves and have three people come at you. Obviously you can't kick someone in the balls per say when training but within reason you can fight against people with light or moderate contact.

With weapons get a rubber knife. Mark it with chalk. Have a person try to attack you with it. Chalk marks on your clothes will show where you would have been cut. It's not rocket science is just like lifting weights- its all about being consistent with the training and putting the time in.

It is highly effective training.

Fred
Wednesday, May 13th, 2009, 10:40 AM
I used to train in Taekwondo and the occasional Hapkido stage, and living in a high criminality town, I have been in my life into dangerous situation, 1vs1 fights, and 1vs5 fights ...

Against multiple attackers, the goal is to avoid the fight, one guy kickin the a** of 5 guys is seen in movies, not in reality. For some reason, my Taekwondo/Hapkido actually helped me more in such situation than in 1vs1. It is easy in that martial art to keep your distance with them with side kicks, then running away, sometimes getting away when they try to grab you with a self defense move. In 1vs1, I was grabbed so many times that it rendered my TKD blows ineffective which leaves me frustrated. I think when you practice religiously a martial art, a real fight can leave you frustrated... you have to accept that a fight is never gonna look pretty.

In a 1vs1, the best martial art would be a mix between Muay Thai and Ju Jutsu, though it depends on multiple factors: your physical type, the fighting distance... Avoid grappling against someone heavier, avoid distance against someone taller... and just avoid the fight if he is not alone...

Wulfram
Wednesday, May 13th, 2009, 12:13 PM
9 times out of 10 if you find yourself in a situation where you are being attacked from all sides it is because you put yourself there. Trust me, I have the scars to prove it. I learned from that mistake, as well as how to recognize the kind of people who are apt to participate in these group attacks on lone individuals. These types usually confine themselves to their own part of town and will almost never behave this way once they leave it.
My reason for being attacked? Addiction. Late teens, I needed a fix, my main dealer and everybody else I knew who had it were going through a "dry spell". But, I just had to have it no matter what. Now, even during my most liberal moments I always knew the golden rule: Never trust a black person when it comes to drugs. I knew this as I drove into their territory, fooling myself with thoughts like "Well maybe if I gave them a chance they will respect me for it".
I had gotten out of my car and was immediately swarmed, all holding out their hands with bags of what appeared to be white powder. I was as nice and courteous as one could be in such a situation (a sign of weakness to these people) and picked the one who I thought looked the most honest. As soon as I put my money into his one hand the other came around in a sweeping motion that felt as if he had cuffed me on the side of my neck. I was somewhat perplexed as he turned and ran, but this confusion did not last for long as this was followed by a sucker punch from my left that stunned me but did not knock me out. The next thing I did was an even worse mistake. I turned and rushed my assailant, grabbed him around his neck and took him to the ground. Suddenly my head and body were being kicked from all sides and I had to get back on my feet to fend them off. I was not fast enough to whirl around and meet every attack, which all came in the form of more sucker punches. The one that finally knocked me unconscious I did not see coming.
What prevented me from being killed? An older black women had come out of her home and rushed over to put herself between me and my attackers. Apparently she was well respected in that community, even by the drug dealers. She stayed at my side until both police and ambulance had arrived, which she may have called herself.

Long story short, never place yourself in the situation to begin with. I also carry a gun with me wherever I go that I have taught myself to pull out very quickly, because I know from experience that people who attack you rely on the element of surprise, hoping they will be able to take you out before you can react.

Phoebe
Wednesday, May 13th, 2009, 02:34 PM
Jeet Kune Do is the best, i do it for 3 years and im capable to kick a lot of Tur.. A...
I do some box too but, Jeet Kune Do is the most complete sistem i think.;)

rainman
Thursday, May 14th, 2009, 09:25 PM
I agree. There is no glory in fighting. Other than perhaps among our own friends etc. or in competition where we do it to keep ourselves strong and brave. Best to avoid the situations. Be able to sum up people and know how to avoid such things. Though increasingly it becomes almost impossible. It's getting where just about anywhere you go in the city is dangerous. I'm sure its only a matter of time before it spreads everywhere and it becomes like South America or something.

Though I have to say most military systems rely heavily on Jiu-Jitsu training as do police training. You usually mix this with an upright fighting system. You will want to train in both a grappling art and a boxing art, though you will mostly rely on the boxing in a fight (depending on the fighter you are). If for nothing else you want to train in just enough grappling to be able to get out of the unwanted position and recover your desired range. What I mean if someone rushes you up close be able to grabble him away from you so you can again kick and punch. If he gets you on the ground be able to get out of that hold and jump back to your feet. You don't need to be an expert grappler but know at least enough to get out of an unwanted grappling position.

Don't get fooled by MMA fighting though. They aren't allowed to hit the back of the head, poke eyes or do small joint manipulation (that is grab a finger and break it), nor allowed groin strike therefore in MMA grappling is much more effective than on the street. For example when I saw the munson fight vs. sylvia munson lost because his arms were not long enough to hit sylvia's face, but on the street he could have just hit the groin. MMA is not always realistic for street fighting. In a real street fight other than ground and pound the majority of your fighting will be upright boxing so focus on that the most. I have watched a lot of street fights and most of them are 1 of 2 things. Either a) really long distance people dancing around each other and boxing b) the guy rushes the other person and they basically have their chests touching and trying to hit each other or throw each other from this close range. Once in a while it goes to the ground, but not often. In the close range you don't even need much grappling. Just know how to throw someone or to elbow them. I would say never grapple with someone that is bigger than you. poke him in the eye and get out of that range. If someone's got a weapon or is faster or has a big reach advantage rush him. If he's bigger than you and faster with better reach advantage you probably don't have a good chance but maybe could go for the feet and try to knock him on his ass.

90% of the time they just train in jiu-jitsu but you could do wrestling or whatever. As long as you can handle yourself in close range and if someone mounts you be able to get out of it and get to your feet. I'm not gonna lie I suck at grappling because I was never trained in it too well either, but at least they let us wrestle around a little bit and get a feel for it once in a while.

It's like Fred was saying because he never trained in it he would get rushed and wouldn't know what to do. A really good school will train you in some basics of how to get out of it.

theTasmanian
Thursday, May 14th, 2009, 11:21 PM
Most of the Ju-Jitsu schools here are not in the slightest like competition BJJ or other they are more Traditional(we do have a nin-jitsu teacher at the club too there's next to not nin-jitsu clubs here) similar to Traditional Judo(before they started "playing") we teach all of the Noobies to kick punch elbow etc be for grappling as its a MUST IMHO learn it all i tell them!
How ever multiple attackers is not a place to F*CK about trying to grapple you have to be one of those "low people" Hit and run!

I would suggest any martial arts school that is we rounded that teaches for real situations here i have found the only ones to be Nin-jitsu most ju-jitsu schools and Hapkido there are almost no MMA schools at all here and the one or two tend to train for competition with rules

rainman is on the right track IMO ;)

multiple attackers.......expect the best but Prepare for the worst :thumbup

Gary in TX
Friday, May 15th, 2009, 05:58 PM
Honestly the only way that most people will ever be able to single handedly defeat three other people (that are the same gender and approximate size as the person defending themselves) is if they 'One Up' the three people and use some kind of a weapon (particularly a gun, but a knife or bludgeon would work well enough too if you're serious enough in its use and you're really enthusiastic about laying into them where it won't get taken away and used on you).

It's either that or run.

So I would throw out the martial arts that emphasize the use of weapons like Escrima, Arnis or the time honored favorite of mine the 'Viking Woodchopper Gone Berserk' style.

When doing things the VWCGB way I generally prefer a club over a knife as hitting someone that's coming at you with a club (bat, pipe, hammer, tree branch, table leg ripped off a chair or whatever) tends to take the fight right out of them. Then because that person's been knocked out of the fight so quickly you can move onto the other two (with a knife even if you stab them in a vital spot they have to bleed out first before they'll stop if they're a determined attacker) in very short order without missing a beat. Whatever you use just make sure that you're active enough in its use and make sure that they don't get the weapon away from you or you'll be in a world of hurt.

It takes alot to get me mad and normally I'm a very calm cool and collected person, but once I get there the VWCGB way of doing things in a fight has worked for me and unless I'm shot in a vital place or I'm hit with something very big and very heavy in the head it's just about impossible to get me to stop as I'm so mad that I can't feel a damn thing. It's not very refined and you don't get any belts or degrees in its use as an art form, but I'm here to tell you that it does work.

Mostly I just want to be left alone without any problems and I'm not the type of person where I have anything to prove as I already know that there's always going to be someone stronger or tougher than I am out there, so that style tends to work well for me just because if there is a fight it's because someone's bringing it to me. Having someone bother me in a physical confrontation and and having someone bring a fight to my doorstep without trying to resolve the conflict in some other way (which is what I'd rather have happen) annoys me to no end and once I get really annoyed it just tends to build from there.

wanttolearn
Friday, May 15th, 2009, 09:59 PM
That is one of the things Krav Maga teaches is getting away.
Most fights with strangers are usually one against more then one. It is very unusual for a lone person to attack another person on the street unless he sees an advantage. Other then that they posture looking for advantages.
If they attack one on one be sure there are others ready to back them up somewhere out of sight.
Another thing I have found that helps is my background in the late eighties and early nineties slam dancing. Without which I would not know how to get up in a flow of bodies.

Grimsteinr
Sunday, May 17th, 2009, 02:49 PM
Or, if all you can get away with or afford, a Club, cudgel, or at least
a 12 to 16 oz. leather covered slap stick or black-jack.
One blow from a little jewel like that can break a man's collar-bone, numb his whole arm or otherwise incapacitate him. They are for close up work with only 2 or at most 3 adversaries.

Back in the day, I worked as a bouncer, or floor-man a couple places.
I wouldn't want to do it now, here in the US, Too many guys are packing
handguns, in bars & clubs. It's a different World, hunnh.

rainman
Monday, May 18th, 2009, 02:43 AM
That is one of the things Krav Maga teaches is getting away.
Most fights with strangers are usually one against more then one. It is very unusual for a lone person to attack another person on the street unless he sees an advantage. Other then that they posture looking for advantages.
If they attack one on one be sure there are others ready to back them up somewhere out of sight.
Another thing I have found that helps is my background in the late eighties and early nineties slam dancing. Without which I would not know how to get up in a flow of bodies.

People will only attack you if they think they can kick your ass. They are cowards typically. Especially non-whites in my experience. I've lived in a high crime area where people were getting held at gun point and robbed, jumped etc. Never had it happen to me. It was always people that were fat and out of shape, looked retarded, or looked weak. They were targeting the weak targets that looked easy. But I know if I did get jumped they were probably sure they could take me. The solution to me would be if possible to not be poor and not live in such areas! Though at times I do wish someone would attack me who is a scumbag criminal just so I can kick his ass. But I realize how stupid that is and go back to normal thinking.

I've been in a lot of fights when younger, but the only major attack I've had is where someone came up to me and I had no clue what he was doing or that he was armed and out of no where he hit me with a knife. I think the best way to be safe would be if the police would just enforce the law and lock away psychopathic maniacs and criminals of the sort, but they wont. And they keep breeding due to all the welfare and such we have. Other than that all I can think of is to have some sort of group who will help protect your interests and to live away from people that aren't in that group (kick people out of the group who don't act right). In other words: have standards. Then we go full circle to my white community. That's what's safe to me. Living around humans rather than animals.

Gary in TX
Monday, May 18th, 2009, 07:05 PM
Case in point of one guy holding off several attackers and coming out okay.

Dude Holds His Own When 6 Teens From Mesquite High School Try To Jump Him! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video640.php?v=wshhBlJu8qv3nZx0WOkP&set_size=1)

Same Video On Youtube In Case One Of The Links Goes Dead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGOonxI1U6Y)


YGOonxI1U6Y

Angelcynn Beorn
Monday, June 1st, 2009, 06:34 PM
Personally i'd say boxing. It has knock out strikes, will teach you to deal with the most common attacks that you'll meet on the street, and leaves you with much better mobility than arts which emphasise kicking.

Krav Maga also has a good reputation, though i'd stay away from BJJ and other ground based arts on the street.

wanttolearn
Sunday, December 6th, 2009, 08:23 AM
Though at times I do wish someone would attack me who is a scumbag criminal just so I can kick his ass. But I realize how stupid that is and go back to normal thinking.

I here you. Went through a short period of time of being angry at the world and went walking through some rough parts of town, just putting a glare on. A mixed group of teens took me up on it one day. Gotta be careful what I wish for sometimes.

Ulfvaldr
Sunday, December 6th, 2009, 12:31 PM
For me it would be "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" with a heavy "Kali" influence. Jeet Kune Do is a street fighting system that is designed to adapt to just about any situation, Filipino Kali has the best knife fighting style I have ever seen, and even if you are unarmed, it (Silat, for empty handed) works just as good.
Filipino knife fighting is the reason for the marines using 45s, and why they started wearing leather collars. (Leather necks)

Leonhardt
Sunday, December 6th, 2009, 02:01 PM
Klick-Pow is the best martial art for multiple attackers, in the non-mouse flavors.

Since most people cannot punch that hard, a fist load to the mellon could be second best.

If all they can carry is a knife, then it should be razor sharp, and hammer gripped. Of course, some street defense classes would be beneficial.

Witta
Thursday, December 10th, 2009, 04:55 PM
Sprinting. Hit the biggest one and get the hell out of there as fast as humanly possible. Standing there in a Jan Claude Van Dam pose would also probably make them laugh long enough for you to run away.

Avoiding situations that might mean you are surrounded by multiple attackers in the first instance is also an important part of self defence.

Angelcynn Beorn
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 12:22 AM
Sprinting. Hit the biggest one and get the hell out of there as fast as humanly possible. Standing there in a Jan Claude Van Dam pose would also probably make them laugh long enough for you to run away.

Avoiding situations that might mean you are surrounded by multiple attackers in the first instance is also an important part of self defence.

Running isn't a Martial Art.

It's essentially a cop out to say 'avoid danger'. The whole point of learning a martial art is to be able to win a fight once you're in it, whatever the reason it started.

SaxonPagan
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 12:52 AM
Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Karate, Tae Kwando etc ...

Fortress Germania's suggestion isn't the worst but, assuming fleeing is not an option, (eg. you're surrounded) you'd need some kind of striking defence. If you can take out a couple of your assailants quickly you might then be in a position to run for it!

baroqueorgan
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 01:22 AM
Krav Maga also has a good reputation, though i'd stay away from BJJ and other ground based arts on the street.

I actually used to teach Krav part-time a few years ago, and I although can't vouch for Krav world-wide, our school's approach to Krav is very intense and I highly, highly, recommend it for someone who is looking for martial arts that are effective in real life situations.

The physical fitness aspects of it are very intense - a big part of it is constantly drilling the most effective, most basic techniques (jab cross hook uppercut, groin kicks, knees, etc). Another big part at the most advanced levels is situational awareness and learning to use your environment to your advantage.

There are also a lot of drills that get you used to reacting to threats quickly - for example, in one drill, the lights are turned off, and one group of students will be standing in a neutral position with eyes closed, and then the other group will attack them either by shoving them with a target, grabbing them in some sort of chokehold, etc, and the goal of the drill is to see how quickly and effectively the first group can respond.

There is also a lot of training for how to deal with close range gun threats, knives, etc. The philosophy behind a lot of the self-defense techniques is that they try to draw as much as possible from the natural reaction that your body would have to the attack in the first place, for example - if someone chokes you from the front and is pushing you forward or up against the wall, your natural instinctive reaction is to put both of your arms vertically in the air, so, the defense Krav teaches is actually based on what you do after your hands both go into the air - this makes it easier to learn defenses more quickly than to try and override your natural instincts with different responses.

Our students are in general very legit, tough guys - there are a lot of police officers, ex-marines, etc, but at the same time, there are a lot of more average people that just go to have basic self-defense awareness or to get in shape.

The training system (again, at least at our school) is modeled so that after just a couple of months of training, a student will be fairly well equipped with the fundamental tools and fighting knowledge necessary to handle a bad situation at a bar, a nighttime attack on the street, etc.

As someone who has spent a large portion of his life training and studying martial arts, Krav seems on the other hand a little shallow, not that it doesn't have depth at higher levels, but, it's not something I would really be able to say, "this is all I'm going to do, just train Krav and nothing else for many years", about.

That being said, it's excellent for people who


Want to get in great shape
Want to learn how to defend themselves effectively and quickly
Want a supplement to their existing martial arts training where they can work on basics and get a good all-around workout

theTasmanian
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 03:46 AM
that's More or less what Ninjitsu teaches its all good nice and rounded ;)

Ocko
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 05:57 PM
The best is a handgun. It stops any Win shun, Karate, Boxing and so on idiot in a second. And it is much easier to learn without all the bullshit.

It also has going for it that it is a germanic way of fighting.

Beside that I always have my hunting knife in my cowboyboots.

rainman
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 06:35 PM
A weapon is a tool. Only fools think that a weapon will make them more powerful. True yes you can be more dangerous and perhaps in some ways more powerful with a weapon, but generally the effecitveness of a weapon depends on the person using it. I believe any real "martial" art training would incorporate training with handguns, knives etc. but there are also other elements: self control, agility, reaction etc. that you train with in a martial art that applies just as much with a handgun as it would with hand to hand combat.

Witta
Saturday, December 12th, 2009, 11:07 PM
The best is a handgun. It stops any Win shun, Karate, Boxing and so on idiot in a second. And it is much easier to learn without all the bullshit.

It also has going for it that it is a germanic way of fighting.

Beside that I always have my hunting knife in my cowboyboots.

Definitely.

1cdYrBsWhtk

theTasmanian
Sunday, December 13th, 2009, 12:10 AM
The best is a handgun. It stops any Win shun, Karate, Boxing and so on idiot in a second. And it is much easier to learn without all the bullshit.

It also has going for it that it is a germanic way of fighting.

Beside that I always have my hunting knife in my cowboyboots.


Yeah yeah you lucky bastards :~(

Ulfvaldr
Sunday, December 13th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Definitely.

1cdYrBsWhtk

you need to watch the second movie. you know the one where he dropped his gun.

Nordlander
Sunday, December 13th, 2009, 02:17 PM
What is handsdown the best Martial Art to defeat multiple attackers at the same time?

Most will simply dismiss BJJ for instance (triangle choke while two other guys soccer kick the fuck out of your skull).
That's utter nonsense in my book.

Let's take an armbar for instance. Who says that an armbar takes 20 seconds before the opponent taps out?
In a streetfight against multiple opponents it might actually be quite useful.
Lightning fast takedown, armbar. Now, the armbar in a streetfight would obviously not be performed with any regard for the attacker's health.
Instead it would be applied to break his f***** arm in 1 second. Shouldn't be a problem to do that against a regular guy.
Now that guy is out for good, focus on his friends...

BJJ might not be ideal against multiple attackers, but it's certainly not the worst idea.

----------------------

Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Aikido and so on immediately come to mind.

Are they better than BJJ and Wrestling though?
If a boxer faces 4 opponents and one of them goes for a takedown then what?

I guess the best suited defence against multiple attackers would be to study a stand-up MA like Muay Thai and a grappling based one like BJJ.
The grappling based MA should have an emphasis on joint-manipulation (preferably small-joint ones like fingers), wrestling might be the best 1 one 1 technique, but it lacks quick "killer techniques".

-------------------------------

What is your opinion?
BTW. the topic assumes that no weapons (neither knives nor guns) are involved.
.45 acp caliber Colt Automatic Pistol with extra mags /Guaranteed to stop fist time every time

Ulfvaldr
Monday, December 14th, 2009, 08:09 AM
I think all you "gun people", have the wrong idea, its a martial art that is being asked about here, any moron can pull a trigger. There are situations where, you don't have, or cant carry a gun, get it taken away, or simply run out of ammo. Them what, tell the guy, "oh,.. wait here i need to go get more ammo, be right back", or "can you hand me my gun, sorry I dropped it'? guns are not always the answer.

baroqueorgan
Monday, December 14th, 2009, 08:21 AM
Well, guns are naturally wonderful, but there are always situations, especially if you live in an urban area, where you do not have your gun the instant you are attacked. If someone tries to hold you up with a knife, a gun of their own, etc, or just plain starts a bar fight, etc. with you, it's good to have a working knowledge of unarmed combat both vs. other unarmed opponents and also vs. weapons in close quarters combat.

Nordlander
Tuesday, December 15th, 2009, 01:59 PM
I think all you "gun people", have the wrong idea, its a martial art that is being asked about here, any moron can pull a trigger. There are situations where, you don't have, or cant carry a gun, get it taken away, or simply run out of ammo. Them what, tell the guy, "oh,.. wait here i need to go get more ammo, be right back", or "can you hand me my gun, sorry I dropped it'? guns are not always the answer.
As that any MORON can practice martial arts and fighting also ; Useing a firearm correctly and competently is the case of useing the most SUPERIOR martial arts weapon available.In my years in the Marine Corps I have mastered ,trained and used in combat MANY forms of martial arts in life or death circumstances and by far the handgun I mentioned is FAR superior to any other.I base my opinions on a lifetime of training ,use in combat and observations of the outcome.I have been an instructor in all forms of the martial arts.To know how to use your hands and feet are fine,to know how to use a knife or sword is better ,but to be a master of firearms means you are the master of all for a firearm is the superior weapon.Q.E.D.

theTasmanian
Tuesday, December 15th, 2009, 10:36 PM
hmm maybe the heading should have been "unarmed self defence" ;)

Still in some country's (shut up yanks...no gloating :P ) you cannot (legally) carry or even own a pistol even a knives are illegal to carry ;)

SaxonPagan
Tuesday, December 15th, 2009, 11:00 PM
This is quite true, Tas!

I think most of us will have to weigh up what we can acceptably carry with the degree of threat weĺre likely to encounter. Obviously, the most effective self-defence tools would be firearms because of their ability to maim or kill at distance, but getting locked up for possessing an illegal weapon tends to negate the benefits of feeling safe on the streets :(

Ulfvaldr
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009, 10:42 AM
As that any MORON can practice martial arts and fighting also

Not true, I taught Filipino combative arts for 4 years at Sifu Al Dacascos, In Portland OR, I can tell you "Morons" don't get very far.

Nordlander
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Not true, I taught Filipino combative arts for 4 years at Sifu Al Dacascos, In Portland OR, I can tell you "Morons" don't get very far.
My point was ,that you missed entirely by letting your inflated ego cloud your judgement is; that MANY semi trained so called experts are out on the streets thinking they can take on the world with their hands and it STILL does not change the fact that a TRAINED man with a weapon will usually beat and EQUALLY trained man with out a weapon.And the BEST personal weapon for multiple attackers is a .45 caliber Colt automatic pistol. You have been watching too many Saturday afternoon Kung Fu movies and have lost total perspective of REAL life or death combat.

Ulfvaldr
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=Nordlander;984744]My point was ,that you missed entirely by letting your inflated ego cloud your judgement QUOTE]

My Inflated ego? you missed the point, this tread is call "Best Martial Art Against Multiple Attackers", not "Best caliber Against Multiple Attackers". It seems to me if you go so far off point, to talk shit about something you obviously know no thing about,you are the one with the inflated ego.

Nordlander
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009, 11:33 PM
[QUOTE=Nordlander;984744]My point was ,that you missed entirely by letting your inflated ego cloud your judgement QUOTE]

My Inflated ego? you missed the point, this tread is call "Best Martial Art Against Multiple Attackers", not "Best caliber Against Multiple Attackers". It seems to me if you go so far off point, to talk shit about something you obviously know no thing about,you are the one with the inflated ego.
You are obviously not too bright;the martial art was a firearm ,and the ability to use it as the best "martial art" against multiple attackers,I mentioned the caliber and the type of firearm as the most efficient
or "best" to use in the situation. If you read this very slowly MAYBE you will be able to comprehend what I am saying

Sigurd
Wednesday, December 16th, 2009, 11:48 PM
Best Martial Art against multiple attackers? A sharp mind. When you are clearly outnumbered, any technical knowledge will be useless without strategical thinking. You need to be one step ahead of the assailants, that is usually only achieved if there's a bunch of good brains somewhere between your temples. ;)

Angelcynn Beorn
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 12:47 AM
My point was ,that you missed entirely by letting your inflated ego cloud your judgement is; that MANY semi trained so called experts are out on the streets thinking they can take on the world with their hands and it STILL does not change the fact that a TRAINED man with a weapon will usually beat and EQUALLY trained man with out a weapon.And the BEST personal weapon for multiple attackers is a .45 caliber Colt automatic pistol. You have been watching too many Saturday afternoon Kung Fu movies and have lost total perspective of REAL life or death combat.

When people are discussing martial arts they aren't talking about gun skills, and trying to "one up" the discussion by talking about guns is immature.

Yes a man with a handgun will beat an unarmed man most of the time. But a man with a rifle will beat a man with a handgun most of the time. A man with armed bodyguards surrounding him 24/7 will beat an armed individual most of the time. So if you keep following that line of logic then becoming a millionaire is the best martial art.

But that isn't what this discussion was about. It's about actual martial arts, and the comparisons between them.

Nordlander
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 03:22 AM
When people are discussing martial arts they aren't talking about gun skills, and trying to "one up" the discussion by talking about guns is immature.

Yes a man with a handgun will beat an unarmed man most of the time. But a man with a rifle will beat a man with a handgun most of the time. A man with armed bodyguards surrounding him 24/7 will beat an armed individual most of the time. So if you keep following that line of logic then becoming a millionaire is the best martial art.

But that isn't what this discussion was about. It's about actual martial arts, and the comparisons between them.
In the original post no one said anything about UNARMED martial arts.Martial arts is skill with hands ,feet ,knives ,swords,bows and arrows or firearms or whatever you can use to defend yourself. The thread was ;in the posters opinion what would be the best form of martial arts against multiple attackers.I answered in the best way I could based on 20 plus years as a combat Marine.I have seen and participated in hundreds of life and death struggles in my career.I did not think automatic rifles was feasable considering the question concerned private civilians.I interpreted the question to mean any form of martial arts as there was no restriction to no weapons in the original thread

theTasmanian
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 03:28 AM
What is handsdown the best Martial Art to defeat multiple attackers at the same time?

Most will simply dismiss BJJ for instance (triangle choke while two other guys soccer kick the fuck out of your skull).
That's utter nonsense in my book.

Let's take an armbar for instance. Who says that an armbar takes 20 seconds before the opponent taps out?
In a streetfight against multiple opponents it might actually be quite useful.
Lightning fast takedown, armbar. Now, the armbar in a streetfight would obviously not be performed with any regard for the attacker's health.
Instead it would be applied to break his f***** arm in 1 second. Shouldn't be a problem to do that against a regular guy.
Now that guy is out for good, focus on his friends...

BJJ might not be ideal against multiple attackers, but it's certainly not the worst idea.

----------------------

Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Aikido and so on immediately come to mind.

Are they better than BJJ and Wrestling though?
If a boxer faces 4 opponents and one of them goes for a takedown then what?

I guess the best suited defence against multiple attackers would be to study a stand-up MA like Muay Thai and a grappling based one like BJJ.
The grappling based MA should have an emphasis on joint-manipulation (preferably small-joint ones like fingers), wrestling might be the best 1 one 1 technique, but it lacks quick "killer techniques".

-------------------------------

What is your opinion?
BTW. the topic assumes that no weapons (neither knives nor guns) are involved.

hmm you fail sorry the Thread was started stating no weapons ;)

Ulfvaldr
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 08:34 AM
In the original post no one said anything about UNARMED martial arts.Martial arts is skill with hands ,feet ,knives ,swords,bows and arrows or firearms or whatever you can use to defend yourself. The thread was ;in the posters opinion what would be the best form of martial arts against multiple attackers.I answered in the best way I could based on 20 plus years as a combat Marine.I have seen and participated in hundreds of life and death struggles in my career.I did not think automatic rifles was feasable considering the question concerned private civilians.I interpreted the question to mean any form of martial arts as there was no restriction to no weapons in the original thread
who not too bright now?

Ulfvaldr
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 08:56 AM
I did say "Any moron can pull a trigger" (and I probably should not have said it like that) I didn't say anyone who pulls a trigger was a moron, in fact I carry a Ruger 9mm myself. the point I was trying to make is that you cant alway count on a gun. The police have even had to retrain because an unarmed attacker could take out a officer from as far as 15 feet before the officer could draw his gun, so I would say a gun is not the Best Martial Art Against Multiple Attackers, and apparently not always against single attackers.

Nordlander
Thursday, December 17th, 2009, 05:33 PM
who not too bright now? I stand corrected ;I did not see the line at the bottom of the thread stating no weapons. My most humble apologies

arvak
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 08:13 PM
I would recommend ju jitsu all round for breaking and falling kai kashinki for on line contact and kung fu for neck and throat strikes each attack demands different moves allways keep calm work on instinct some times use others to shield you when attack is coming in. If theres is time aim at eyes, throat, side of head use uraken back fist.

glima
Sunday, June 13th, 2010, 02:51 AM
I recomend good old european martial arts, catch wrestling, stick fighting, boxing, glima, schwingen etc. If you don't have the access to learn these, then the clolsest thing to glima and schwingen is judo. These are great because you don't roll around on the ground, you clinch and throw opponents off ballance while staying on your feet ready to face other attackers. The submissions in judo are similar to those in catch wrestling if subduing an opponent with choke or joint lock are necessary or possible. Boxing will teach you to evaid strikes and deliver effective blows with your hands while keeping both feet on the ground as to not be caught off balance or have a leg grabbed when you throw a kick. Stick and knife fighting from england, scottland, ireland, portugal, spain, france, germany, denmark etc, are dying arts that are very effective in defending yourself with whatever you can put in your hands. They proved successfull in war throughout europe's history. It's too bad that movies have glorified asian martial arts to the point that our very own are being forgotten.

However, a gun would be nice if multiple people want to do you mortal harm! I carry a .357 magnum.

EQ Fighter
Sunday, June 13th, 2010, 04:28 AM
I think if you fight more than one attacker you are going to get seriously hurt.

Also If I'm not right, Judo is not a true Martial Art but a scaled down training aid for Japanese school boys in the age range of 11 to 12 years of age. A scaled down version of Aikido, which is in fact a very effective combat art.

I would not attempt to fight more than one person without a hand gun. Beretta or 9MM Glock would do nicely. When I was teenager I took about 5 years of Kempo, wish includes mostly hand to hand combat and is similar to Aikido or some versions of kunfu.

In any case it takes a long time to become a proficient Martial Artist.

theTasmanian
Sunday, June 13th, 2010, 04:40 AM
I think if you fight more than one attacker you are going to get seriously hurt.

Also If I'm not right, Judo is not a true Martial Art but a scaled down training aid for Japanese school boys in the age range of 11 to 12 years of age. A scaled down version of Aikido, which is in fact a very effective combat art.

I would not attempt to fight more than one person without a hand gun. Beretta or 9MM Glock would do nicely. When I was teenager I took about 5 years of Kempo, wish includes mostly hand to hand combat and is similar to Aikido or some versions of kunfu.

In any case it takes a long time to become a proficient Martial Artist.

Not totally correct on Judo ;)
The "Old" Judo was aiki-judo(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_%28martial_arts_principle%29) it was the More combat oriented version(the same art as Ju-jitsu only they called it judo in some parts of Japan)that was watered down after WWII(Ninjitsu was out lawed at this time)
so it became the "sport" that we know today as Judo and jujitsu was the combat art with Aikido leaving most people wondering WTF were the japs talking about that is also a very good art in its own right but it to like Judo/Jujitsu has been watered down to an extent with even(Hark spit) sports versions

Bottom line is still find the School that will teach the "proper" old methods of the art:thumbup

glima
Sunday, June 13th, 2010, 11:16 PM
Though judo may be watered down, it's the principle of balance, strength and speed mixed with technique to through an opponent off balace that make it a usefull thing to know. I agree, judo is more a sport than combat, and that if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you most likely will get injured and not win. No matter what martial art you know. But, as a fighter myself, and not just a martial arts spectator, I can tell you that learning to use your hands, evade attack, and be able to throw an opponent off balance while you keep your base is the best way to keep you fighting instead of being stomped on the ground. Even then its no guarantee. I think judo is admirable, but as germanics we have our own styles that are very similar but uniquely germanic. There are even documented matches between Glima and Judo in the early 1900's where the glima was often triumphant over the judo. Ive watched scottish backhold wrestlers, and schwingen practitioners throw judo guys and many of them will even participate in local mma fights and do quite well by just knowing boxing and a germanic wrestling style. I know an mma fight is one on one and we are talking about multiple attackers, but it just shows us that in a real fight, those sports can be effective for fighting even if they are not complete or watered down.

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, June 15th, 2010, 03:51 AM
Not totally correct on Judo ;)
The "Old" Judo was aiki-judo(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiki_%28martial_arts_principle%29) it was the More combat oriented version(the same art as Ju-jitsu only they called it judo in some parts of Japan)that was watered down after WWII(Ninjitsu was out lawed at this time)
so it became the "sport" that we know today as Judo and jujitsu was the combat art with Aikido leaving most people wondering WTF were the japs talking about that is also a very good art in its own right but it to like Judo/Jujitsu has been watered down to an extent with even(Hark spit) sports versions

Bottom line is still find the School that will teach the "proper" old methods of the art:thumbup

Sorry I stand Corrected :)

EQ Fighter
Tuesday, June 15th, 2010, 04:10 AM
Though judo may be watered down, it's the principle of balance, strength and speed mixed with technique to through an opponent off balace that make it a usefull thing to know. I agree, judo is more a sport than combat, and that if you are attacked by multiple attackers, you most likely will get injured and not win. No matter what martial art you know. But, as a fighter myself, and not just a martial arts spectator, I can tell you that learning to use your hands, evade attack, and be able to throw an opponent off balance while you keep your base is the best way to keep you fighting instead of being stomped on the ground. Even then its no guarantee. I think judo is admirable, but as germanics we have our own styles that are very similar but uniquely germanic. There are even documented matches between Glima and Judo in the early 1900's where the glima was often triumphant over the judo. Ive watched scottish backhold wrestlers, and schwingen practitioners throw judo guys and many of them will even participate in local mma fights and do quite well by just knowing boxing and a germanic wrestling style. I know an mma fight is one on one and we are talking about multiple attackers, but it just shows us that in a real fight, those sports can be effective for fighting even if they are not complete or watered down.

Really when it comes right down to it, a martial arts system is just that.
A system.
It does not guarantee that you will be a good fighter. Some people will pick it up easy, others not so.
The system is no better than the person and their abilities that is learning it. There really is no magic bullet. That is unless it is an actual bullet. I took Kenpo for about five years, and in that time it taught me two things. 1) I was not natural Martial Artist. And 2) at the end of five years I was just beginning to get the hang of it.

I think Ed Parker said it best here.

XuQfGXvCcJQ&NR=1

glima
Wednesday, June 16th, 2010, 06:07 AM
Really when it comes right down to it, a martial arts system is just that.
A system.
It does not guarantee that you will be a good fighter. Some people will pick it up easy, others not so.
The system is no better than the person and their abilities that is learning it. There really is no magic bullet. That is unless it is an actual bullet. I took Kenpo for about five years, and in that time it taught me two things. 1) I was not natural Martial Artist. And 2) at the end of five years I was just beginning to get the hang of it.

I couldn't agree more because you are absolutely right! Some are born fighters and others are not. Different styles just do different things to help somebody in one aspect of fighting or another. Like BJJ is for ground fighting and is excelent for one on one fighting. However, if you tangle with somebody on the ground when his buddies are around, they will stomp you. Ground fighting skills are essential, but not for evey situation. If I had no other choice but to defend myself against multiple attackers, I would want to remain fighting as long as I can and give them a good fight before being defeted, because I highly doubt that I would win multiple attackers unless it was a group of children. Its just a fact. I would try to avoid any such situation first, then run if I could, and last resort I would pick up the first thing I could find and use it as a weapon and take out as many of those mother f***ers as I can. Prevention is the best self defense.

The other thing I was trying to do in this last post was promote germanic disciplines. As you stated, a martial art is a system and it doesn't matter what style you use, it is all about the fighters ability. That's true, so I say as germanics, we need to keep our disciplines alive and learn them for traditional and cultural purposes. These disciplines are dying out to the oriental arts and we need to stop that from happening. The aspect of these arts that I like are the ones I stated above for fighting multiple attackers. They give you strength and balance, allowing and teaching you to apply leverage to gain an advantage over your opponents. I have nothing against germanics learning oriental arts, I have myself, but I think true germanic preservationists who love learning combat should get more in touch with thier roots. Just my opinion.:thumbup

EQ Fighter
Thursday, June 17th, 2010, 02:27 AM
Well from the perspective of Kenpo that was taught by Ed Parker, he was for his part trying to take oriental mostly Chinese martial arts and create a teaching system for non orientals.

But for me I say learn as many styles as you can retain. And then take what fits you the best from each.

There is no one size fits all martial art. My Instructor once said it all boils down to timing, and that anything could be considered a "Martial Art" If used in a Defensive way. His example was a Major league baseball player could peen you from a distance at 60 mph with rocks and probably kill you, and you would never touch him. For him that is a "Martial Art". But for most of us we concentrate on general purpose learned weapons.

As far as Glima or any other Germanic form, I say learn them, then use what you need. And If Parker were still alive I think he would agree ;)

After all it is you that will be doing the fighting not the system.

Irby
Sunday, June 20th, 2010, 10:49 AM
I do systema and Combat Sambo, but essentially it is the fighter not the style that really matters.

In systema we do a lot of work with mutiple attackers, essentially using a lot of the same ideas as Aikido, but we tend to be (naturally as it is Russian) more aggressive, with leg, and arm breaks. We are not a sport like other Martial arts, so with systema (which is a special forces training) we are not looking to win, but disable the opponent. Therefore anything goes, lifting and twisiting heads, arm breaks, choking, pushing eyes out. We do not have the same 'morality' as other combat sports, so I think it frightens people off systema. You learn systema to stop people killing you, and if a group of attackers are coming at you, then the first person you may need to break his leg or smash his nose into his head, to make an example.


Nobody ever won a fight by dying first.

huntsman
Wednesday, June 30th, 2010, 06:48 PM
Just walk with a weapon that is not a weapon. You can buy very respectable silver headed canes that are literally deadly.

If you have the will to fight, you will not be taken down.

Leonhardt
Wednesday, June 30th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Other good examples of weapons that are not weapons are

steel toe hiking boots,

belts with a large buckle,

keys on a AA flashlight,
http://www.brightguy.com/products/TerraLux_LightStar_220_EX_TLF3C2AAEX.php

steel pen, etc.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SCHPENG

CharlesMartel
Thursday, August 5th, 2010, 11:21 PM
Guns. Training to take out multiple attackers is a waste of time, unless you're in prison. Better to use that time preparing for Armageddon. Gun-readiness is the most urgent task.

Preceptor
Friday, August 13th, 2010, 01:01 PM
I'm a bit late to the party, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. From a general perspective, the best art for fighting multiple opponents is one that was designed or adapted for multiple opponents. The best styes I've seen or experienced for this are Choy Li Fut Kung Fu, Silat and Kali. When practiced realistically, all three look very similar - though the Filipino/Indonesian arts have the advantage of a less stylized training regimen (and that's coming from a lifelong practitioner and instructor of CLF) and more recent combat usage with an increased awareness of weapons in the fight even when unarmed.

With that said, anything used with proper aggression (violence of action as we say in the US Army) and mindset will be effective. The saying in kung fu circles is: First bravery, then power, then technique - meaning that, all other things being equal an untrained fighter with a willingness to win will defeat an opponent or opponents with less will to fight, a stronger/more powerful fighter will defeat a weaker one and that technique is the least important factor. This is, of course, a generalization, but it shows the foolishness of the common assumption about superior technique allowing a weakling to defeat large aggressive thugs. One reason the Kyukushin fighters, Thai boxers, MMA fighters and regular boxers do so well in fights is that they are aggressive and willing to take hits in order to win.

Regarding weapons - anything that increases your effectiveness and range is great, but you have to consider the legalities, not just of carrying, but of using them. Putting a .45 caliber round in an unarmed man's chest because he punches you won't play well in any court of law and even in the most liberal gun carry states, you generally can't bring your gun to a bar or onto school grounds, so you need to be fully prepared for all situations.

australia
Wednesday, October 27th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Yes I was hoping someone would say Choy Lay Fut because Bruce Lee said Choy Lay Fut was the best style he had seen for multiple attackers. People have said Jeet Kune Do but not Choy Lay Fut which is odd given what Bruce Lee has said.

According to the book where I read that, Choy Lay Fut is the best style for multiple attackers, and Wing Chun is the best style for one on one. However when I tried out Choy Lay Fut one of the students told me he'd been doing Choy Lay Fut for 6 years and his friend had been doing Wing Chun for 6 years and when they spar/fight the Choy Lay Fut guy always wins. But he also said he's bigger than the Wing Chun guy.

I'm considering choosing one of the two. Can anyone help me make my decision?

Astrid Runa
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 03:12 PM
I'd have said Jiu Jitsu.
My friend practises it, and Hel, he's only a novice, but he already knows how to take multiple opponents down and defend against an array of weapons (including swords. Yes. Swords).

Thorwolf
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 05:54 PM
Jiu Jitsu is not the best defence against mutiple attackers! It is completely impractical in a situation where mutiple attackers is a question.

In the 1980's naval special warfare command set out to standardise hand to hand , and hand to weapon fighting. they systematicly rejected all traditional martial arts, being that they were more often than not unpractical in real life combat.

The solution was a fighting style based on science, not an art form, using movements that you have done since you were crawling.

Autokinimatic fighting!! and overwhelming agression!!

Astrid Runa
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 07:43 PM
Jiu Jitsu is not the best defence against mutiple attackers! It is completely impractical in a situation where mutiple attackers is a question.

In the 1980's naval special warfare command set out to standardise hand to hand , and hand to weapon fighting. they systematicly rejected all traditional martial arts, being that they were more often than not unpractical in real life combat.

The solution was a fighting style based on science, not an art form, using movements that you have done since you were crawling.

Autokinimatic fighting!! and overwhelming agression!!

Yeah, because we all live in America where carrying dangerous weapons is legal.
Bear in mind that I live in Scotland and if I'm caught with a weapon of any sort, my ass will end up in jail. ESPECIALLY if I use that weapon to defend myself against an attack.

And Jiu Jitsu is NOT an art form.
Get your facts clear. It is NOT the same as karate (which is all just for show, by the way. I know this because I used to practise karate. Shoto Khan, to be exact).

Jiu Jitsu teaches you to fight and defend using very simple but very affective movements. It teaches you how to disarm an opponent, how to defend yourself against an array of weapons, how to disable your opponent through using their pressure points against them. It also teaches you different defensive moves that could prove useful when you find yourself in a situation where you may be outnumbered.
It's required now.

Heinrich Harrer
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 08:04 PM
Yeah, because we all live in America where carrying dangerous weapons is legal.
Bear in mind that I live in Scotland and if I'm caught with a weapon of any sort, my ass will end up in jail. ESPECIALLY if I use that weapon to defend myself against an attack.

You're right, we don't have these freedoms in Europe. We can't just walk around with a loaded gun.


And Jiu Jitsu is NOT an art form.
Get your facts clear. It is NOT the same as karate (which is all just for show, by the way. I know this because I used to practise karate. Shoto Khan, to be exact).


Does anyone know how good Kyokushinkai Karate is for real fights? I heard they put a lot of emphasis on full contact training and hardening of the body, unlike in many other Karate variations.

Neophyte
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Jiu Jitsu is not the best defence against mutiple attackers! It is completely impractical in a situation where mutiple attackers is a question.

In the 1980's naval special warfare command set out to standardise hand to hand , and hand to weapon fighting. they systematicly rejected all traditional martial arts, being that they were more often than not unpractical in real life combat.

The solution was a fighting style based on science, not an art form, using movements that you have done since you were crawling.

Autokinimatic fighting!! and overwhelming agression!!

The funny thing is that if these people had actually known anything about what they were doing, they would have known that this was the exact same results that they themselves had come up with in the 40s. What had they expected to find, that "traditional" Asian martial arts had gone through some sort of transformation in intervening 30-40 years? :D

But I guess that they had their fair deal of karate/judo/taekwondo/whatever freaks who just had to push their own little pet sport.

theTasmanian
Sunday, November 28th, 2010, 11:01 PM
Jiu Jitsu is not the best defence against mutiple attackers! It is completely impractical in a situation where mutiple attackers is a question.

In the 1980's naval special warfare command set out to standardise hand to hand , and hand to weapon fighting. they systematicly rejected all traditional martial arts, being that they were more often than not unpractical in real life combat.

The solution was a fighting style based on science, not an art form, using movements that you have done since you were crawling.

Autokinimatic fighting!! and overwhelming agression!!

in the Highlighted section you just named Ninjitsu as that is what it is based on....and the grappling side of that is dead set Jujitsu

Thorwolf
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 12:42 AM
in the Highlighted section you just named Ninjitsu as that is what it is based on....and the grappling side of that is dead set Jujitsu

autokinematic fighting was developed by Jerry Peterson in the Veitnam era where he spent time as a point man for the most decorated unit of the war.

He was granted an interveiw with Naval command just because of his record. They thought that their would be no way that an Army man could teach their Se.A.L.s anything about fighting. but they were proven wrong. An entire platoon of Se.A.Ls could not defeat him. Even in the water.

Ninjitsu is just another silly art form, and has nothing in common with autokinimatic fighting. this is a natural fighting style, based on biomechanics. this is a very leathal real world combat system.

Jiu jitsu is a great tool in the arsenal. but not the best with multiple attackers. if you will notice the same fundamental moves are found in a variety of styles. the human body can only move in certain ways, this is biomechanics. all forms are based on biomechanics, whether they know it or not. The differance with most other types of fighting styles is that they teach a deffencive mindset. when you are met with agression, you should meet it with overwhelming agression, and hostilty, and leathal brutality.

Thorwolf
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 12:50 AM
Yeah, because we all live in America where carrying dangerous weapons is legal.
Bear in mind that I live in Scotland and if I'm caught with a weapon of any sort, my ass will end up in jail. ESPECIALLY if I use that weapon to defend myself against an attack.

And Jiu Jitsu is NOT an art form.
Get your facts clear. It is NOT the same as karate (which is all just for show, by the way. I know this because I used to practise karate. Shoto Khan, to be exact).

Jiu Jitsu teaches you to fight and defend using very simple but very affective movements. It teaches you how to disarm an opponent, how to defend yourself against an array of weapons, how to disable your opponent through using their pressure points against them. It also teaches you different defensive moves that could prove useful when you find yourself in a situation where you may be outnumbered.
It's required now.



Wher did I mention anything about weapons?

And look, I am not discouraging anyone from taking Jiu Jitsu, But it is not the best against multiple attackers. all of the skills from Jiu Jitsu are important to learn, but it is realy no different than many other fighting systems. you are right that it is not a style, when I said that I was refering to most of the other Asian systems. Part of Jiu Jitsu's success is this very fact. and in single combat it is excellent. But autokinimatic fighting is a real combat system. it is for do or die situations. If you study , you will find that they are very simmilar in some ways. Except overwhelming brutality.

wittwer
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 01:14 AM
An M-249 SAW would work well, but civilians can't carry one of these in public. My second choice would be a nice heavy wooden baseball bat, coupled with any of the Hand to Hand Combat training developed by any of the various Militarys... ;)

theTasmanian
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 05:24 AM
autokinematic fighting was developed by Jerry Peterson in the Veitnam era where he spent time as a point man for the most decorated unit of the war.

He was granted an interveiw with Naval command just because of his record. They thought that their would be no way that an Army man could teach their Se.A.L.s anything about fighting. but they were proven wrong. An entire platoon of Se.A.Ls could not defeat him. Even in the water.

Ninjitsu is just another silly art form, and has nothing in common with autokinimatic fighting. this is a natural fighting style, based on biomechanics. this is a very leathal real world combat system.

Jiu jitsu is a great tool in the arsenal. but not the best with multiple attackers. if you will notice the same fundamental moves are found in a variety of styles. the human body can only move in certain ways, this is biomechanics. all forms are based on biomechanics, whether they know it or not. The differance with most other types of fighting styles is that they teach a deffencive mindset. when you are met with agression, you should meet it with overwhelming agression, and hostilty, and leathal brutality.
:fhaha::roll:lmfao: I see you suffer from the "not made here" syndrome

after you go learn some ninjitsu from a teach who is certified to teach then you might know that the idea's you are putting forth are very..very old ;)

Thorwolf
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 03:09 PM
What the hell does NinJitsu have to do with anything? Yes, Autokinimatic fighting Was developed during VeitNam. But what works does not change.

I find it pretty funny, that you are trying to put me down, with the old info crap. NinJitsu is very old!

Besides that, I have personaly witnessed a person who was a black belt in NinJItsu get his ass kicked by someone who was a captain of the high school wresteling team.

Overwhelming agression is the way to win. Blitzkrieg If you will!

I have more than 21 years of fight training. I do not need you, or anyone else to tell me what works!

Neophyte
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 03:21 PM
Besides that, I have personaly witnessed a person who was a black belt in NinJItsu get his ass kicked by someone who was a captain of the high school wresteling team.

Overwhelming agression is the way to win. Blitzkrieg If you will!

Indeed. It's not so much what you do as how you do it. :thumbup

GroeneWolf
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 04:40 PM
Jiu Jitsu teaches you to fight and defend using very simple but very affective movements. It teaches you how to disarm an opponent, how to defend yourself against an array of weapons, how to disable your opponent through using their pressure points against them. It also teaches you different defensive moves that could prove useful when you find yourself in a situation where you may be outnumbered.
It's required now.

It all depends on how you train. But I think Bruce Lee said it best, that there are not many differences in the techniques of different arts, because you can do only so many moves with the body. However what Thorwolf was talking about is hand-to-hand system that is just the raw stuff, without extras that come along with Asian martial arts however useful they might be outside the context of a fight. And now doubt those army manuals are also talking about pressure points, they only use different names.

I myself practice Tae Kwon Do, but when it comes to my self defense training for both real life and examinations, I prefer taking inspiration from the military manuals I have in my personal library.

Astrid Runa
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 05:26 PM
What the hell does NinJitsu have to do with anything? Yes, Autokinimatic fighting Was developed during VeitNam. But what works does not change.

I find it pretty funny, that you are trying to put me down, with the old info crap. NinJitsu is very old!

Besides that, I have personaly witnessed a person who was a black belt in NinJItsu get his ass kicked by someone who was a captain of the high school wresteling team.

Overwhelming agression is the way to win. Blitzkrieg If you will!

I have more than 21 years of fight training. I do not need you, or anyone else to tell me what works!

And? Your point?
Using the "my horse is bigger than your horse" argument doesn't get you anywhere.
Yeah, you've got 21 years of training under your belt, but it's all about technique. How you fight.
Would you win in a fight against someone who is an 8th Dan in seven different forms of karate, owns his own dojo and who's name is in the blackbelt hall of fame and who, when fighting, can take down a group of men quite easily?
It's all about technique. Who teaches you.

flÔneur
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 05:47 PM
What is your opinion?

Well i would advise a combination of kickboxing,streetfighting and dirty tricks.....picking up anything that comes in usefull and getting the boot in as often as possible.....then run.
Its all about aggression and speed,im not going to start laying claim to having done this or that but i have always found the combination of the above three have done me quite well.

SaxonPagan
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 06:20 PM
Against multiple attackers I'd say the best form of self-defence is some kind of striking art. The grappling ones will be less useful as you can only concentrate on one assailant at a time via these means, but I think this must have already been mentioned - I'd be surprised if not!

One anecdote I'd like to share though is that I was recently talking to a black belt in Judo who I've known since 1976 and he used to be the doorman at a nightclub I went to back then. He's since trained my son to be a Judo black belt (2nd dan) and I asked him about his first reaction if anyone got "in his face". He said he'd punch them! :)

When pressed further, he explained that 90% of other Judokas would do exactly the same as this is most people's natural instinct when feeling threatened/angry etc. It also inflicts more instant pain that will discourage the attacker(s) but Judo is a very good "2nd-line" means of self defense if the fight goes to the ground.

It’s futile to talk about the “most effective” martial art because this ultimately depends on the individual. Karate, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc. are all effective against the sort of thug who'd attack you in the street and all of them have a component that deals with multiple attackers. From what I gather from my son (who is a KB instructor), this usually involves taking out the first guy within a couple of seconds and, if there are more than 3 of them, just running like hell :D

The rest of the "defence against multiple attackers" manual reads like a book on common sense with stuff such as avoiding dark alleys - especially narrow ones where your Kickboxing skills will be negated. Even details about having a crew cut or shaven head (as opposed to long hair, that can easily be grabbed) are useful to know, as is advice on clothing; for example, you can't fight very well in a suit with your jacket flapping around! Perhaps the most important thing though is to know your limits which, as far as women and kids are concerned, means not trying to slug it out with adult males, especially if there are more than one of them - don't even attempt this!

Neophyte
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 08:03 PM
without extras that come along with Asian martial arts however useful they might be outside the context of a fight.

You see this in all walks of life. What really works is usually the basics, no more. But when people make this their living and main activity in life, boredom sets in and they start to tinker with it, adding all sorts of bells and whistles. Making it more complicated and complex also makes them look more expert.

When large scale warfare breaks out and these skills are called upon routinely we see a return to the focus on basic skills and fundamentals. And this was precisely the Anglo-American experience in WWII. But as soon as peace broke out, the same old forces were at work again. And today the US Armed forces seem to be training more for a UFC match than for the real deal.

We can also see the influence of popular culture in this; in the 30s it was judo and jujutsu that formed the basis for military H2H, in the 70s and 80s it was karate, and today it is the BJJ and UFC that seem to set the direction.

PR professionals and politicians are prone to this too. What really works is to have a short set of talking points and keep repeating them over and over again, day in and day out all year around. But since this makes them bored they start to vary themselves, a little here and a little there, and soon they are no longer on a consistent message.

theTasmanian
Monday, November 29th, 2010, 09:36 PM
What the hell does NinJitsu have to do with anything? Yes, Autokinimatic fighting Was developed during VeitNam. But what works does not change.

I find it pretty funny, that you are trying to put me down, with the old info crap. NinJitsu is very old!

Besides that, I have personaly witnessed a person who was a black belt in NinJItsu get his ass kicked by someone who was a captain of the high school wresteling team.

Overwhelming agression is the way to win. Blitzkrieg If you will!

I have more than 21 years of fight training. I do not need you, or anyone else to tell me what works!

It has every thing to do with what you are saying the system you are pushing is no different in theory (its only the way the teacher teaches that makes it different) to ninjitsu

I am not trying to put You down

I am however pointing out that some of the oldest martial arts on the face of the planet have a real grounding with science/logic(not that science existed as we know it back then) in mind

and that is the idea that is Very old.......

as for the Black belt......well everyone is different and as i had beaten a number of then before i had even taken up martial arts it proves nothing ;)

Preceptor
Friday, January 28th, 2011, 02:07 AM
Yes I was hoping someone would say Choy Lay Fut because Bruce Lee said Choy Lay Fut was the best style he had seen for multiple attackers. People have said Jeet Kune Do but not Choy Lay Fut which is odd given what Bruce Lee has said.

According to the book where I read that, Choy Lay Fut is the best style for multiple attackers, and Wing Chun is the best style for one on one. However when I tried out Choy Lay Fut one of the students told me he'd been doing Choy Lay Fut for 6 years and his friend had been doing Wing Chun for 6 years and when they spar/fight the Choy Lay Fut guy always wins. But he also said he's bigger than the Wing Chun guy.

I'm considering choosing one of the two. Can anyone help me make my decision?

Well, I've studied both, so I'll give it a shot. Both are good systems. In the old days in Hong Kong, there were lots of fights between the two schools and the results were about even. I'm told that Bruce never actually got the whole system from Yip Man, which may have skewed his opinion somewhat - not just of CLF but of CMA in general - but he went on to embrace Fillipino and Indonesian arts that I've found to have a similar feel to CLF at its higher levels. So if like aggression and extension, and prefer to use offense as defense, go with CLf. As an Aussie, you have the chance to learn from the current "keeper of the style" for CLF or some of the badass Buk Sing schools started by Vince and Dave Lacey. From an artistic standpoint, I prefer the former, but Buk Sing teaches you to fight immediately.

On the other hand, if you prefer a more scientific, systematic, and restrained, approach to fighting, Wing Chun is your art. I find CLF more adaptable to individual tastes, but that flexibility means you have make certain stylistic choices along the way and integrate each lesson into your own way of fighting. Some people just end up with a mess, others become really nasty fighters who progress from crude aggression (which wins a lot of street fights no matter what technique you study) to effortless technicians.
One thing I've noticed is that the non-Yip Man lineage schools seem to have preserved some more interesting techniques than those usually seen. I would have no problem recommending some of those.

If you want to discuss the two in depth, then feel free to PM me. I don't have PM privileges...



Mike

Robbensvolk
Friday, March 25th, 2011, 03:22 PM
You have to keep moving in a circle. Try to keep all your opponents in a line in front of you by moving in this circle. this way, they can't all attack you at once. I've been jumped many times and your best bet is to go after the "leader" or toughest ones first. Sometimes if you take on the instigator or leader, his pack will maybe give you a minute fighting him alone. Kind of like deferring to him so he can exhibit what he can do to you. If you drop his ass quick, you might have a chance to run and the rest of group might lose some fight in them

TXRog
Saturday, March 26th, 2011, 11:24 PM
Krav Maga (although originating in Israel) is a very effective martial art.
If you can grab any type of weapon (e.g., stick, pipe, pole, cane), some of the very best martial arts employing such implements are the Filipino martial arts - Arnis,Eskrima and Kali.
I had a friend in CA where it is all but impossible to carry concealed (meaning a handgun).
He was a Redneck from Kentucky and he never left the house without a gun on his person or in his truck.
When he first arrived in LA he went straight to the police station and asked the first policeman he saw about this "problem."
The officer looked at him straight in the face and told him to go to the local hardware store and purchase a marine emergency flare pistol and a few extra flares for backup. Apparently flare pistols are not illegal to have in your vehicle in CA (perhaps due to its being a coastal state). He promptly did so.
I myself always had a nice North Carolina hickory axe handle behind my seat (also legal) and I only had to resort to using it once on a scumbag Armenian who tried to pull a gun on me during an incident of "road rage" (him not me).
How did the altercation end you may ask?
Let's just say the bloodstains were NEVER going to wash out of his nice fancy shirt.

Weitgereister
Tuesday, March 29th, 2011, 07:04 AM
Pardon me if someone has already mentioned these, but I had the privilage of studying Savate and Hapkido from a very early age. In my opinion, the combination of the debilitating strikes from Savate (going for knees, hips, etc) and the quick joint breaking, upright grapples of Hapkido have made a great combination.

But, more importantly than the intricacies of any one style is your raw aggression level. Attack quickly without a though of retreat, and go for permanent damage. Attack the eyes, joints, claw, use hammer fists - in short, go crazy. It will usually make a inept opponent (see - dumb blacks) quickly rethink if your wallet is worth going blind.

Caledonian
Tuesday, March 29th, 2011, 08:18 AM
Baseball bat......

Neophyte
Tuesday, March 29th, 2011, 06:32 PM
Baseball bat......

I assume that you practice the ancient style of Fuckemup ryu. :P

Caledonian
Wednesday, March 30th, 2011, 06:56 AM
I assume that you practice the ancient style of Fuckemup ryu. :P

Indeed. ;) It's a very old ancient style of martial arts.

The object of it is to find the nearest blunt object and just beat people into a bloody pulp until either they start running away or stop moving.

In this style of martial arts there is no fighting fair.

Edgard
Thursday, April 21st, 2011, 09:19 AM
Internal arts like Xing Yi and Bagua are also good for this. I used to train Wing Chun/southern Chines type martial arts but it let me down when faced with 6+ attackers and I got a broken nose. Xing Yi is viscus is done properly. I am only be shown the basics my teacher feels the forms are only extras. At a high level if trained properly (the basic exercises) Xing Yi would be amazing against one or many, it was the martial art of caravan escorts and even WW2 solderers were trained in it. Its very direct and grate for weapons. Knocking people over is also no problem, kinda quick wrestling. I would avoid trying to use ground fighting against multiple opponents I once got my ribs broken when some guys friends decided a one on one fight wasn't.

Bagua I don't practice but I do know it works and its good if you don't want to get pined down. You can evade people and cut through between or around people. It was the style of the elite imperial guard. Again training the basics would be needed the style has built up a lot of fluff over the last 100 years that is fun but extra to what you need in a fight.

Both arts used relaxed power so you can hit like a bus, I doubled my striking power when I took up Xing Yi.

ozhammer
Wednesday, July 13th, 2011, 10:34 AM
Whats the best for taller people?

I heard Aikido was good for throwing but what is the best for tall people taking on multiple attackers?

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, July 13th, 2011, 12:15 PM
I used to train Wing Chun/southern Chines type martial arts but it let me down when faced with 6+ attackers and I got a broken nose.

I wouldn't blame this on the Wing Chun, Edgard ;)

There is no martial art capable of fighting off 6 adult male attackers and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

You were lucky to escape with just a broken nose!

Neophyte
Tuesday, July 19th, 2011, 09:09 PM
I wouldn't blame this on the Wing Chun, Edgard ;)

There is no martial art capable of fighting off 6 adult male attackers and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

You were lucky to escape with just a broken nose!

Glock-Jutsu! :P

Edgard
Tuesday, July 19th, 2011, 09:18 PM
I wouldn't blame this on the Wing Chun, Edgard ;)

There is no martial art capable of fighting off 6 adult male attackers and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

You were lucky to escape with just a broken nose!

You are wrong. There are martial arts capable of fighting of more than six. Sadly its very hard to get good. Anyway if I was to fight the same six weaklings now I am about 75% I would beat them to death. I am a lot better now and would not be so reluctant to fight.

This is a video of an MMA fighter giving a kicking to 4 people. He is crap and do you think 2 more guys would have help them beat this guy?

http://viewstreetfights.com/tag/cky/

Old Chinese guy fights and beats 3 guys.

YiKgtZCfTUU


Russian Boxer give 2 guys a kicking.

Wb9dJAwfSX4

Younger Russian takes on 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYkHut3-GnY&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Even the Turks can do it
X8_zWBQXZj4

Would a few more people have made a big difference in the outcome?

P.S. I think the Turk is the best fighter out of the examples. They all fall over when they get close in.

Just for fun a old Russian man beating on 5 guys. Not that they fight back.

dSIe0KRXh5s&feature

SaxonPagan
Tuesday, July 19th, 2011, 11:29 PM
Seriously, Edgard, I think you should re-examine those videos with a more critical eye ;)

I accept that you're aware that the Russian was hitting blokes who were backing off, at least two of whom appeared to be saying something on the lines of "don't hit me" (but he did anyway!) In addition to this, they all appeared to go down with just ONE punch, which I find highly suspect. In real fights this seldom happens, but five times in a row is just plain daft - sorry!

It's the same with that Turkish chap, who seemed to have no technique to speak of and yet his assailants were falling over on the first contact with two or three of them crumpling from left jabs that were just stuck out with little force ... very unconvincing! :D

Let me reiterate that you're in serious trouble if you're attacked by 3 adult males, let alone the silly numbers we're seeing here. It works in the Bruce Lee films but in real life you have little chance and it's dangerous to believe otherwise. You cannot overcome multiple attackers who come at you simultaneously because you just don't have enough arms and legs to deal with them, and it's as simple as that!

Huginn ok Muninn
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 12:05 AM
Glock-Jutsu! :P

QfYooL6CzbE

:D

Dun Holm
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 07:43 AM
The use of a gun. lol

Edgard
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 11:42 AM
Seriously, Edgard, I think you should re-examine those videos with a more critical eye ;)

I accept that you're aware that the Russian was hitting blokes who were backing off, at least two of whom appeared to be saying something on the lines of "don't hit me" (but he did anyway!) In addition to this, they all appeared to go down with just ONE punch, which I find highly suspect. In real fights this seldom happens, but five times in a row is just plain daft - sorry!

It's the same with that Turkish chap, who seemed to have no technique to speak of and yet his assailants were falling over on the first contact with two or three of them crumpling from left jabs that were just stuck out with little force ... very unconvincing! :D

Let me reiterate that you're in serious trouble if you're attacked by 3 adult males, let alone the silly numbers we're seeing here. It works in the Bruce Lee films but in real life you have little chance and it's dangerous to believe otherwise. You cannot overcome multiple attackers who come at you simultaneously because you just don't have enough arms and legs to deal with them, and it's as simple as that!

I think its you who have little idea about this. The old guy connects solidly 5 times. If I make a solid connection from a strike people will fall down. No if, no but they will fall.

As for the Turkish man they fell over as he had way more power. I know small guys who can do that to me and I am over 15 stone and have about 14 years of training behind me. I can do it to most people myself.
The man has a good root and power, his attacks have neither and although his striking is uncontrolled it continues hitting until they are out of range. He is trained and strong they are week and without training. Its not fake its just the difference in power is clear to see. In a ring fight you have two trained strong people fighting so it would look totally different. Bouncing people off of you is possible if you have a lot more power and rooting. I know guys who can do that, they make you look foolish when you come into contact with them.
Their skill makes you look like a week child, it is the difference in power, not just muscular power but whole body connection and the ability to connect the power of you legs through your body.
If you have not experienced it you will not understand what I am getting at and probably not believe me but I can tell you for a fact there are men who could beat 6 of me and I am not weak or small.
In prison are some guys the guards will not mess with without at least 10 guys and riot gear. One such man is Charles Bronson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson_(prisoner)#Life_in_priso n


When I was fighting six people I tripped up walking backwards. They could not knock me over with striking has hard as they tried and I could and did knock them back a few times. I had insufficient aggression. I am way more powerful now.

It really comes down to who you are fighting. If you are against 5 guys who are boxing champions it wont happen but if you are against 5 losers you can beat on them if you know what you are doing. :thumbup

Edgard
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 11:52 AM
More info about Bronson.


Charles Bronson: Top 10 facts about the notorious prisoner


By Mirror.co.uk 13/03/2009


Charles Bronson
1. Born Michael Gordon Peterson in 1952 to a respectable middle-class family in Aberystwyth, West Wales, he would eventually move on to Liverpool and then Luton where he would go on to earn a living as a circus strongman.

2. Bronson changed his name to that of the Hollywood star of the Death Wish films after a bare knuckle fight promoter said it would be a bigger pull than his real name, Michael Peters.

3. Bronson was originally jailed for seven years for armed robbery in 1974 at the age of 19, and has had a series of sentences added to his original term over the years for attacking inmates and prison staff along with over a dozen hostage taking incidents.

4. To date he's has served over 34 years in prison and solitary confinement, spending just 131 days as a free man since his initial imprisonment.

He was released in October 1988 and spent 68 days as a free man before being arrested for robbery. He also tasted freedom in November 1992 for 53 days, before inevitably returning to jail for conspiracy to rob.

He remains a Category A prisoner in Wakefield high-security Prison where he is still in solitary confinement

5. Weighing 210lbs and standing five feet ten and a half inches tall, Bronson is renowned for his strength, having bent metal cell doors with his bare hands. His daily training regime includes up to 3,000 press-ups a day.

6. Bronson holds six world records for feats of strength and fitness and well as an unofficial record for the most prison rooftop protests by any UK inmate.



7. He carried out his most infamous hostage incident in 1998, when he took two Iraqi hijackers and another inmate hostage at Belmarsh prison in London.

Insisting his hostages call him "General", he told negotiators he would eat one of his victims before demanding a helicopter to Cuba along with a cheese and pickle sandwich to end the stand off.

In 2000 he was jailed for life after being convicted of holding a teacher hostage for nearly two days during a jail siege.

8. In recent years, Bronson has become a published author and cartoonist. Among his eleven books, is a health and fitness guide in which he shares some of the secrets behind his legendary muscle power. Profits raised from his work go to children's animal charities.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/03/13/mirror-top-10-charles-bronson-factfile-115875-20960768/

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/dec2008/6/3/217A9BAE-0D36-8BA2-B03147BA082F84C7.jpg

If you have that much power you can beat on six normal guys. Still he has external power and there are other ways to get that powerful although you would probably not be able to bend bars like he can.

OneEye
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 12:21 PM
wDrWOvjMGf0

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 01:30 PM
I think its you who have little idea about this. The old guy connects solidly 5 times. If I make a solid connection from a strike people will fall down. No if, no but they will fall.

As for the Turkish man they fell over as he had way more power. I know small guys who can do that to me and I am over 15 stone and have about 14 years of training behind me. I can do it to most people myself.

The man has a good root and power, his attacks have neither and although his striking is uncontrolled it continues hitting until they are out of range. He is trained and strong they are week and without training. Its not fake its just the difference in power is clear to see. In a ring fight you have two trained strong people fighting so it would look totally different. Bouncing people off of you is possible if you have a lot more power and rooting. I know guys who can do that, they make you look foolish when you come into contact with them.
Their skill makes you look like a week child, it is the difference in power, not just muscular power but whole body connection and the ability to connect the power of you legs through your body.

If you have not experienced it you will not understand what I am getting at and probably not believe me but I can tell you for a fact there are men who could beat 6 of me and I am not weak or small.

In prison are some guys the guards will not mess with without at least 10 guys and riot gear. One such man is Charles Bronson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles...Life_in_prison

When I was fighting six people I tripped up walking backwards. They could not knock me over with striking has hard as they tried and I could and did knock them back a few times. I had insufficient aggression. I am way more powerful now.

It really comes down to who you are fighting. If you are against 5 guys who are boxing champions it wont happen but if you are against 5 losers you can beat on them if you know what you are doing.

Sorry, Edgard, but I don't believe most of this. I think you've been reading far too much stuff and possibly have a tendency to fantasize about your own fighting exploits.

And, for the record, I do know what I am talking about here. My son is a black belt in both Kickboxing (3rd Dan) and Judo who runs his own gym, as well as having fought professionally.

He would laugh at much of the nonsense you have just written!

Schopenhauer
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 03:41 PM
Egard wrote,

Would a few more people have made a big difference in the outcome?

P.S. I think the Turk is the best fighter out of the examples. They all fall over when they get close in.

You're right about the Turk. His footwork and situational awareness were outstanding. Notice too that whenever he threw a punch, he did so from a VERY stable position.

Btw, there is multiple attacker training in Aikido. It's required for dan testing.

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 05:07 PM
You're right about the Turk. His footwork and situational awareness were outstanding. Notice too that whenever he threw a punch, he did so from a VERY stable position.

I think if you actually look at this again you will find he threw most of his punches (including those that miraculously knocked over his attackers) whilst moving backwards!!

:nope

Edgard
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 09:15 PM
Kickboxing (3rd Dan) and Judo

There is your trouble. They are Sports exsplicitly created to allow safe one on one competition. I am not saying no kickboxers can fight but they are hardly famed killers.

I am not fantasizing about my ability, if I get a solid connection with my right had and a step I will knock someone down as most good boxers would be able to. In a fight against a skilled opponent its hard to get a solid connect but the guys in the video where not fighting. Thats not far fetched.

I am also saying the guys who attacked me were weak with no idea about how to fight or co-ordinate their attack so saying I could beat them now is hardly a huge claim to skill.

Most kickboxers I have met are full of it. They can do lovely balletic kicking which they think work in real fights but which in truth leaves them very vulnerable to any attack.

As for the Turk punching walking backward. I would not recommend that as a tactic but he is avoiding having them all around him at once and effectively fighting them all one on one. This is how you fight multiple attackers although its better to do the same thing going foreword or to the side.

You should be able to punch from any movement or static position as the Turk can. It looks messy and unskilled. Its a real fight against a lot of people did you think it would look like in the films.

Edgard
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 09:46 PM
Egard wrote,


You're right about the Turk. His footwork and situational awareness were outstanding. Notice too that whenever he threw a punch, he did so from a VERY stable position.

Btw, there is multiple attacker training in Aikido. It's required for dan testing.

Schopenhauer what do you think of this training method? (for everyone else yes this is a training method not an application) Its to develop rooting and the ability to transmit whole body force.

B6JEsRngst8

SaxonPagan
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 10:14 PM
There is your trouble. They are Sports exsplicitly created to allow safe one on one competition. I am not saying no kickboxers can fight but they are hardly famed killers.

Yes, of course they are sports! They'd be banned if not, and who wants to be a "famed killer" anyway :confused


Most kickboxers I have met are full of it. They can do lovely balletic kicking which they think work in real fights but which in truth leaves them very vulnerable to any attack.

I cannot comment on the kick-boxers you've met but anyone semi-competent will tell you not to kick above waist-height or you're off balance. It's clear to me you've never done any kickboxing or fought against one. In fact, I would doubt you've had a decent punch-up in your life!


As for the Turk punching walking backward. I would not recommend that as a tactic

Congratulations! You still haven't answered my grave doubts though about how you can effectively knock several assailants over whilst walking backwards. The simple fact is that you CANNOT and this film is a complete fraud!!!!


You should be able to punch from any movement or static position as the Turk can. It looks messy and unskilled. Its a real fight against a lot of people did you think it would look like in the films.


More technical babble, ending with a jibe about ME being unable to distinguish between films and reality. OMG, the irony!!!!! :D

Look, you've obviously been trawling through YouTube to find videos that back up all this nonsense about being able to fight off 6 assailants (as you claim to have done) but these clips are an insult to the intelligence.

The fact you have fallen for them tells me you are an Internet martial artist and now you've found some stuff about "developing rooting and the ability to transmit whole body force" with Yi Quan ... honestly, it just gets worse :oanieyes

OneEye
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 10:24 PM
My last post was a fun post, but seriously, the best defense would be Kali/Escrima Stick fighting. The origin is from an old man that walked with a cane in the phillipines.

A cane is a legal thing to carry, can be used as a weapon and the best thing is you can put a gap between you and many people (which is very important) and fend them off at the same time.



MLRhzDT-dqA&NR=1&feature=fvwp
bV7Z8FBxKp0

Edgard
Wednesday, July 20th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Yes, of course they are sports! They'd be banned if not, and who wants to be a "famed killer" anyway :confused



I cannot comment on the kick-boxers you've met but anyone semi-competent will tell you not to kick above waist-height or you're off balance. It's clear to me you've never done any kickboxing or fought against one. In fact, I would doubt you've had a decent punch-up in your life!



Congratulations! You still haven't answered my grave doubts though about how you can effectively knock several assailants over whilst walking backwards. The simple fact is that you CANNOT and this film is a complete fraud!!!!



More technical babble, ending with a jibe about ME being unable to distinguish between films and reality. OMG, the irony!!!!! :D

Look, you've obviously been trawling through YouTube to find videos that back up all this nonsense about being able to fight off 6 assailants (as you claim to have done) but these clips are an insult to the intelligence.

The fact you have fallen for them tells me you are an Internet martial artist and now you've found some stuff about "developing rooting and the ability to transmit whole body force" with Yi Quan ... honestly, it just gets worse :oanieyes

I have been in a punch up, people I train with have been in many punch ups. I have spared with kick boxers. You should have knock-down force from any position. At least you know not to kick above waist hight lol

I never said I was that good only that some people are very weak. I am not saying pick 6 random guys and I will fight them I am saying put me up against the 6 I already faced. I would also need space as in a confined area it would be harder.

The film with the Turks is not fake and if you look you will see he pauses his backing off for the big hits. When he hits hardest he is stationery for the time it takes to strike.

This is it again without the stupid music and with the run up and aftermath. It is not fake. Pro boxer Vs people who cant fight, not that hard to believe.

zWGwBHavbu0

How is that fake?

Anyway it seems unlikely I would ever convince you but having experienced what I am talking about first hand and knowing people who have I am not going to downgrade my opinion of the possible to fit your limited view. You can not do what I am talking about and neither can your son so you say it can not be done.
I have met people who can and have taken on multiple opponents and have actually had a fight against 6 people. Even if I did not win I did find out a lot. You are wrong it can/is/has been done many times and will be again.

Have you ever heard of the frog in a well impressed by the sound of its roar? There is a world beyond the well but like Plato's Cave the cave dweller who returns to the cave will be killed as the people inside refuse to believe what they do not understand.

The Yi Quan video is just a training method, I did not imagine you would understand what is going on in it. I posted it for Schopenhauer as he should understand some of the mechanics.

SaxonPagan
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 12:04 AM
You can not do what I am talking about and neither can your son so you say it can not be done.
I have met people who can and have taken on multiple opponents and have actually had a fight against 6 people. Even if I did not win I did find out a lot. You are wrong it can/is/has been done many times and will be again.

Oh dear :oanieyes

Show me a martial arts thread on the Internet and there's always somebody who pops up to claim he's done this, that or the other against xxx opponents.


The Yi Quan video is just a training method, I did not imagine you would understand what is going on in it. I posted it for Schopenhauer as he should understand some of the mechanics.

As for the Yi Quan "mechanics" that you claim I don't understand, I do understand that you cannot push an adult male from a static position several steps and a large distance backwards into a wall like that.

This is how these martial arts (and there are thousands of them out there!!!) recruit gullible new members ... by making outlandish claims about mysterious forces that they can unlock. They just love suckers like you Edgard, they really do! :D

Schopenhauer
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 12:24 AM
Schopenhauer what do you think of this training method? (for everyone else yes this is a training method not an application) Its to develop rooting and the ability to transmit whole body force.

There's an internal power practitioner named Dan Harden who has been teaching here in the States for awhile. A senior student of my Aikido teacher went to him for instruction and was so impressed with what he was doing he brought our teacher to train with him. Now my teacher has been training for 40+ years and can spot a fake/fraud in a heartbeat, but he says this guy is the real deal, so I believe him. And it's not just my teacher's word I took, I felt the difference in his technique after he started training in internal power. It's hard to describe, but there's a strength there in him now that is totally unconnected to physical power as you'd know it.

The problem with video demonstrations of internal power techniques is that the eye lies. You have to feel the other person to know if they're using internal power or not.

Here's a vid of Saotome Sensei demonstrating randori.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU7L8L8h6vI

Ueshiba Sensei 1935
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Check out what he's doing at the 8:50 - 8:53 min mark. Very subtle display of internal power. Ueshiba learned this kind of power from Takeda Sensei of the Daito-Ryu.

SaxonPagan
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 12:54 AM
Here's a vid of Saotome Sensei demonstrating randori.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU7L8L8h6vI

Love it - beautifully choreographed!! :D

One final thing I would say before I go to bed (laughing) is that there are hundreds of thousands of ú$€'s to be earned nowadays in all these martial arts competitions such as the UFC.

When I see an Aikido artist throwing someone across the cage with a wristlock or a randori practitioner nonchalantly tossing opponents aside like on that video I'll sit up and take notice. Oh, and I shouldn't forget the Yi Quan competitor who is going to hurl his opponents backwards using some "internal power" technique :lmfao:

Goodnight.

OneEye
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 05:09 AM
Oh dear :oanieyes

Show me a martial arts thread on the Internet and there's always somebody who pops up to claim he's done this, that or the other against xxx opponents.

I went up against 8 sp!cs armed with bats, bottles and chains that attacked me. I survived (barely), but I have the injury photos (and healing photos), medical documents and victims of crime act documents to prove it I did so. 99.9999% of people on this planet are full of crap; as for me, I tell it how it is.

Edgard
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 10:18 AM
There's an internal power practitioner named Dan Harden who has been teaching here in the States for awhile. A senior student of my Aikido teacher went to him for instruction and was so impressed with what he was doing he brought our teacher to train with him. Now my teacher has been training for 40+ years and can spot a fake/fraud in a heartbeat, but he says this guy is the real deal, so I believe him. And it's not just my teacher's word I took, I felt the difference in his technique after he started training in internal power. It's hard to describe, but there's a strength there in him now that is totally unconnected to physical power as you'd know it.

The problem with video demonstrations of internal power techniques is that the eye lies. You have to feel the other person to know if they're using internal power or not.

Here's a vid of Saotome Sensei demonstrating randori.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU7L8L8h6vI

Ueshiba Sensei 1935
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Check out what he's doing at the 8:50 - 8:53 min mark. Very subtle display of internal power. Ueshiba learned this kind of power from Takeda Sensei of the Daito-Ryu.

Thanks for that the videos.

As for the Yi Quan guy I have met him and had him do that to me so I can categorically say that guy can fling you across the room from a static position. :thumbup

I am not so good at running backwards so on one of his pushes I fell over and was pushed back about 2-3 meters through gravel and it really hurt and felt more like falling of a bike. So I know its not just people running back from him as even if I was fooling myself (and I have no reason to) into running back it would not have sufficient energy to do that to me over gravel.

People say they have not seen it so it cant be real. The problem comes when they refuse to go out and meet people like that to test what they can do. They are not impossible to find.

Godwinson you are basing your vast Knowledge on what your kick boxing son tells you. You clearly know nothing about it first hand.
The video with the Turk is a good example. Check out mixed martial arts forums that have a thread on it, none of the guys think it is fake and they are all practising martial artists and not internal martial artists but MMA meat heads.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62156&page=1

As for traditional martial arts people fighting in the UFC why on earth would they want to?

Schopenhauer
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 01:38 PM
Thanks for that the videos.

As for the Yi Quan guy I have met him and had him do that to me so I can categorically say that guy can fling you across the room from a static position. :thumbup

I am not so good at running backwards so on one of his pushes I fell over and was pushed back about 2-3 meters through gravel and it really hurt and felt more like falling of a bike. So I know its not just people running back from him as even if I was fooling myself (and I have no reason to) into running back it would not have sufficient energy to do that to me over gravel.

People say they have not seen it so it cant be real. The problem comes when they refuse to go out and meet people like that to test what they can do. They are not impossible to find.

Godwinson you are basing your vast Knowledge on what your kick boxing son tells you. You clearly know nothing about it first hand.
The video with the Turk is a good example. Check out mixed martial arts forums that have a thread on it, none of the guys think it is fake and they are all practising martial artists and not internal martial artists but MMA meat heads.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62156&page=1

As for traditional martial arts people fighting in the UFC why on earth would they want to?

The way I was taught to generate internal power was through winding. While the hips remain stationary, the hara rotates either to the left or right depending on the situation. This is, in effect, like winding a spring in a clock. Once wound, you have quite a bit of potential power to work with. The upside to this is that you can generate power from a totally static position. Think Bruce Lee's one inch punch for example.

I've read a lot of MMA guys dismiss internal power training as fake, because they saw vids of it. I don't know, maybe they took to many shots to the head, but the whole point of internal power is that it's invisible. Not that it's some mystical thing like the Force from Star Wars, but a good internal power practitioner's technique would be so small and subtle that there's no way a camera is going to see it.

The problem with traditional martial arts, at least the ones I've been exposed to, is that they are designed to kill people, not knock them out in a sporting ring. Agressively applied, a technique like Shihonage would rip a person's arm out of it's socket. Also, many strikes are aimed towards the eyes and neck, something which done in the "ring" would blind or potentially kill an opponent. Not that I'm being dismissive of MMA practitioners, but what they do is just different. Their goal is to knock someone out using specifically prescribed points of contact, meaning there are rules and they must rigidly followed to maintain a baseline of safety. Now throw a traditionally trained martial artist in there and he may very well get to knocked out quick, but if he were to apply what he knew, the opponent could very well end of maimed or dead.

Neophyte
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 02:22 PM
Love it - beautifully choreographed!! :D

The only thing that I learnt from that video is that none of the attackers knew how to attack properly, esp. not in a group. If he tried that BS against three guys who knew what they were doing, he would get hurt.

SaxonPagan
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 02:37 PM
I went up against 8 sp!cs armed with bats, bottles and chains that attacked me. I survived (barely), but I have the injury photos (and healing photos), medical documents and victims of crime act documents to prove it I did so. 99.9999% of people on this planet are full of crap; as for me, I tell it how it is.

I don't doubt for one moment that you were involved in this unfortunate incident, OneEye. It's quite easy to get yourself beaten up by any number of attackers (I'm sorry to hear about this, btw!) but the point I'm making is that there is no martial art capable of fighting off 6, 8 or whatever number of aggressors.

You are not claiming to have done so, unlike Edgard, who was apparently holding his own against 6 attackers (until he tripped up, naturally, because none of them were good enough to put him down ;)) and I am saying that this is bullsh*t!!!

Now all these fantasists who trawl through Wikipedia, Google, Youtube and so on are trying to make out there are mysterious holds that can instantly maim opponents and that such deadly people are far too tough for competitions like the UFC because they would easily kill all the other competitors.

I am saying that anyone who believes this needs a serious reality check. I can recognize pretty much straightaway who has actually done martial arts and who are the outsiders looking in and some of the gullible, naive comments I'm reading on here are a dead giveaway!

Martial Arts classes have a 75% drop-out rate because after about 3/4 weeks you get 9-stone women who are disillusioned by the fact they still cannot beat up their abusive 14-stone boyfriends. They get deluded by all the garbage they read on threads such as this and their expectations become totally unrealistic.

Believe me, if there WAS a martial art capable of overcoming such overwhelming odds as 6 attackers then the whole world would know about it and it would be famous overnight.

But there isn't ... end of!

Neophyte
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 02:48 PM
Well, if you are lucky and are in the right place you could take on 6 guys and walk away. In a narrow alley, corridor or the like they would not be able to get around you or engage you more than one at the time. Under such circumstances you could defend yourself, just as the Spartans at Thermopylae or the Romans at Watling Street. Also, several people could fight off a larger crowd if they were able to cover each others backs and sides.

Edgard
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 03:11 PM
I am saying that anyone who believes this needs a serious reality check. I can recognize pretty much straightaway who has actually done martial arts and who are the outsiders looking in and some of the gullible, naive comments I'm reading on here are a dead giveaway!

Martial Arts classes have a 75% drop-out rate because after about 3/4 weeks you get 9-stone women who are disillusioned by the fact they still cannot beat up their abusive 14-stone boyfriends. They get deluded by all the garbage they read on threads such as this and their expectations become totally unrealistic.

Believe me, if there WAS a martial art capable of overcoming such overwhelming odds as 6 attackers then the whole world would know about it and it would be famous overnight.

But there isn't ... end of!

I have already told you I have been training since I was 15 with only small breaks from formal classes and with home practice throughout. I am now 29 and have trained with about 10 diffident instructors. I now prefer to take private lessons although this is not always possible.

I am in no sense a newbie or a drop out. The claim I have made was about to six weak known opponents who have no idea how to fight or work as a team not to anyone else. It is not a claim to huge ability just competency.


To be sufficiently good to take on multiple attackers takes 10 years + training in a style geared up to do that and with the long term drop out rate for MA closer to 90% it is hardly a surprise that the whole world do not know about it.

Most good martial artists are not in fights every night at the pub, so of the few hundred in the UK who may be able to fight multiple opponents is it surprising that it hardly ever happens? When it happens it also get written of as exaggeration so people just carry on in their ignorance of human potential. Even when on video like in the case of the Turk people like you say its fake.

How many years training do you have? When is the last time you were in a class?

You would not know it but most of the best instructors to not teach in health clubs or sometimes at all.

Thorolf
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 03:33 PM
I don't doubt for one moment that you were involved in this unfortunate incident, OneEye. It's quite easy to get yourself beaten up by any number of attackers (I'm sorry to hear about this, btw!) but the point I'm making is that there is no martial art capable of fighting off 6, 8 or whatever number of aggressors.


I will agree 6-8 is a bit much, your screwed in that situation if your alone. I have seen a friend in school take on 5 guys, but then again he is a huge. He also had his back to the wall to keep them in front of him. For hand to hand if your really good at fighting I could see maybe taking between 2-4 people depending on their skill level.

With a weapon things change a lot though. I used to take martial arts called haidong gumdo. Some korean art meant for fighting multiple opponents with a sword. People unskilled with a weapon are so incredibly easy to beat that if someone with enough skill were to fight 6-8 low skilled people he would probably win. I know I've taken 5 before, but 3 of them had very little experience.

Swords don't help much in real life anymore though. Luckily training with a sword sort of transfers over to pipes and really anything that long and hard enough to use as a weapon. Though these weapons won't cut, so it would be harder to kill someone. Realistically a skilled fighter of any sort is probably only going to be able to take 2-4 at most. If the attackers are unarmed in this situation, possibly 5 or 6 if your really good and are in a good area to defend yourself.

OneEye
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 10:32 PM
I don't doubt for one moment that you were involved in this unfortunate incident, OneEye. It's quite easy to get yourself beaten up by any number of attackers (I'm sorry to hear about this, btw!) but the point I'm making is that there is no martial art capable of fighting off 6, 8 or whatever number of aggressors.

You are not claiming to have done so, unlike Edgard, who was apparently holding his own against 6 attackers (until he tripped up, naturally, because none of them were good enough to put him down ;)) and I am saying that this is bullsh*t!!!

Now all these fantasists who trawl through Wikipedia, Google, Youtube and so on are trying to make out there are mysterious holds that can instantly maim opponents and that such deadly people are far too tough for competitions like the UFC because they would easily kill all the other competitors.

I am saying that anyone who believes this needs a serious reality check. I can recognize pretty much straightaway who has actually done martial arts and who are the outsiders looking in and some of the gullible, naive comments I'm reading on here are a dead giveaway!

Martial Arts classes have a 75% drop-out rate because after about 3/4 weeks you get 9-stone women who are disillusioned by the fact they still cannot beat up their abusive 14-stone boyfriends. They get deluded by all the garbage they read on threads such as this and their expectations become totally unrealistic.

Believe me, if there WAS a martial art capable of overcoming such overwhelming odds as 6 attackers then the whole world would know about it and it would be famous overnight.

But there isn't ... end of!

Ok, I know what you mean now Godwinson... It is bull to walk away with no injuries from a fight with a group (I know first hand). I am 6'1 265lbs (water polo & football player) I have 1 year of jiu jitsu backround and 2 years of boxing also; I was able to take out 3 of the 8 when the sp!cs that attacked me, but numbers always win, especially when they have weapons and you dont. So anyone who said they have taken down more than 3-4 people in fight is full of crap, even Professional MMA Fighters cant do that.

Edgard
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 10:50 PM
The way I was taught to generate internal power was through winding. While the hips remain stationary, the hara rotates either to the left or right depending on the situation. This is, in effect, like winding a spring in a clock. Once wound, you have quite a bit of potential power to work with. The upside to this is that you can generate power from a totally static position. Think Bruce Lee's one inch punch for example.

That is similar to the White Crane method. We do it in Xing Yi by tucking the perineum under and foreword coursing a slight bow in the back. Like a bow it holds potential energy. When it is straitened out we avoid razing up so the energy extends out foreword or where ever we need it wile the front leg braces the back. This is the foundation of the famous trinity strength of Xing Yi.

We sometimes add the rotation of the hips and waist to it for added power or to separate the front and back hand in the spiting motion. We can also rock foreword in the stance or take a step. It can be done with a very short movement (one inch or less) or a large push or strike.

The application would be a palm strike or anything else you could think of.

Schopenhauer
Thursday, July 21st, 2011, 10:55 PM
Most good martial artists are not in fights every night at the pub, so of the few hundred in the UK who may be able to fight multiple opponents is it surprising that it hardly ever happens? When it happens it also get written of as exaggeration so people just carry on in their ignorance of human potential. Even when on video like in the case of the Turk people like you say its fake.

A good martial artists will be able to size a potentially dangerous situation up pretty quickly, and have enough sense to get out of there before they get themselves into trouble.

The guys who habitually get into fights are morons. Eventually they'll just run into someone who'll hurt them permanently or they'll seriously injure someone else. Either way the potential is there for them to ruin their lives one way or the other.

This mentality that a martial artist must be getting into fights all the time to prove himself is a very low grade, ape-like kind of thinking. All the people whom I've met who can really hurt people are the nicest, most well mannered people you'd ever meet.

Schopenhauer
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011, 01:57 AM
Not a multiple attacker scenario I know, but still this is funny as hell. You just know what's going to happen as soon as the clip starts too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYScvMUfeq4&feature=player_embedded

Edgard
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011, 10:01 PM
Not a multiple attacker scenario I know, but still this is funny as hell. You just know what's going to happen as soon as the clip starts too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYScvMUfeq4&feature=player_embedded

That is funny. The fact that the guy was imitating a guard but seemed unable to stop a telegraphed punch that went strait down the middle lol

Schopenhauer
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011, 10:40 PM
That is funny. The fact that the guy was imitating a guard but seemed unable to stop a telegraphed punch that went strait down the middle lol

It was very Danzig-esque.

Schopenhauer
Saturday, July 23rd, 2011, 10:42 PM
That is similar to the White Crane method. We do it in Xing Yi by tucking the perineum under and foreword coursing a slight bow in the back. Like a bow it holds potential energy. When it is straitened out we avoid razing up so the energy extends out foreword or where ever we need it wile the front leg braces the back. This is the foundation of the famous trinity strength of Xing Yi.

We sometimes add the rotation of the hips and waist to it for added power or to separate the front and back hand in the spiting motion. We can also rock foreword in the stance or take a step. It can be done with a very short movement (one inch or less) or a large push or strike.

The application would be a palm strike or anything else you could think of.

The stationary hips/rotating hara method I was describing works perfectly for sword as well.

Thorolf
Monday, July 25th, 2011, 03:28 AM
The stationary hips/rotating hara method I was describing works perfectly for sword as well.

thats actually how we were trained. You use the hips a lot with a sword. Actually if you put to much arm into it, you will hurt yourself over time.

Schopenhauer
Monday, July 25th, 2011, 03:38 AM
thats actually how we were trained. You use the hips a lot with a sword. Actually if you put to much arm into it, you will hurt yourself over time.

Putting any "arm" into your cut will only make it dull and slow.

As easy way to gauge how well your using your hara power as opposed to arm strength is to hit another bokken with yours. If the resulting sound is more like a thud, then you know you're still using to much "arm." If, on the other hand, the sound you get is high crack, then you know you're using hara.

But don't confuse hips with hara. Power is generated by stationary hips and rotating hara.

Astrid Runa
Tuesday, August 16th, 2011, 11:13 PM
Nothing Japanese. They are all for show. That's it. I would suggest something along the lines of Wing Chun. It's effective against pretty much all forms of fighting. You just have to watch Wing Chun Legend Ip Man to see that.

Japanese Martial Arts all have a set form, a set way of moving. Not very effective at all in a street fight, whereas something like Wing Chun is. It's fluid, flexible and effective.

Edgard
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 12:16 AM
Nothing Japanese. They are all for show. That's it. I would suggest something along the lines of Wing Chun. It's effective against pretty much all forms of fighting. You just have to watch Wing Chun Legend Ip Man to see that.

Japanese Martial Arts all have a set form, a set way of moving. Not very effective at all in a street fight, whereas something like Wing Chun is. It's fluid, flexible and effective.

Wing Chun is ok for surviving a fight but don't expect knock-out power or it to be any good against multiple attackers. I guess you can use foot work to offset that weakness but I found the style a bit limited. I know a lot of Wing Chun guys who are very good but given the numbers who take it up there should be a lot more. Still useful for beginning as it is quick to learn. Xing Yi is similar to Wing Chun but has more power and some longer range options and take downs. :thumbup

Fiona
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 12:24 AM
I used to do wing chun kung fu. I went to lessons twice a day 3 days a week when i was 21 for 6 months then gave up. A lot of it stuck though.

It was invented by buddist nuns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EO9nDdhx1A

Schopenhauer
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 12:54 AM
Nothing Japanese. They are all for show. That's it. I would suggest something along the lines of Wing Chun. It's effective against pretty much all forms of fighting. You just have to watch Wing Chun Legend Ip Man to see that.

Japanese Martial Arts all have a set form, a set way of moving. Not very effective at all in a street fight, whereas something like Wing Chun is. It's fluid, flexible and effective.

Er..ah. kata (set forms) are the primary teaching technique of all martial arts.

Edgard
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 08:38 PM
I used to do wing chun kung fu. I went to lessons twice a day 3 days a week when i was 21 for 6 months then gave up. A lot of it stuck though.

It was invented by buddist nuns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EO9nDdhx1A

I think six months of WC is time well spent as it gives a very practical bass for self defence.
The problem is at the early stages you learn to move your arms independently of each other or anything else. This helps you make shapes for defence and gives you speed. This can also leave the blows a little under powered. Not a real problem one on one because you can just hit your opponent ten or twenty times. With multiple attackers you lose that option so you have to use it to produce space to escape. This is a good stratagy.
It would help to have real havy hands though.

Top level WC guys get heavy hands by training with the wooden man and with Iron palm training. They also use Chi Gong and the weapons training to rebuild the connection between their arms and their core as in the one inch punch. They can get a lot of power that penetrates deeply. As a beginner or intermediate student you will not have power like that.

I trained in WC for about two years more or less and trained a related style of Southern Kung Fu for about ten years before that, it had similar hand moments and striking so I got a good foundation in Wing Chun but I found it was not really for me. I trained with some grate guys though and met a few famous people in the WC world. Some WC guys are really top fighters and very friendly. I live with a guy for a few mounths who went to the same class as me and we got a lot of Chi Sau practice.

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Wing Chun is more or less my default mode for defence still.

One guy I did not get to train with but who everybody who is good respect is Gary Lam, train with him if you can. The guy is the real deal and a proven street fighter, I would learn Wing Chun from him if I could.


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I did however attend seminars with some grate teachers I have a lot of respect for, Ip Chun, Duncan Leung (very practical fighter) and David Peterson (Well worth training with if your in Australia) to name a few. If living in the UK I would also recommend Alan Gibson and Shaun Rawcliffe for training if you are ever living near their class or classes of their students.

As for having no forms that is just not true. WC has three unarmed, two weapon forms and the wooden man form. Japanese arts can work its just about the attitude people have to applying them is often very wrong. Its often more the artist than the art when it comes to fighting.

Astrid Runa
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 08:50 PM
Er..ah. kata (set forms) are the primary teaching technique of all martial arts.

I did two forms of Japanese Karate and have my black belt in both. Compared to Chinese martial arts, Japanese is very rigid and very useless in a real fight. It's about showing off, form.
Wing Chun uses a wooden dummy, and is very effective against most fighting styles.
But, I want to learn Krav Maga. It's used by the SAS, and effective against ALL fighting styles, including weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsUAtMuw_M

Edgard
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 09:15 PM
I did two forms of Japanese Karate and have my black belt in both. Compared to Chinese martial arts, Japanese is very rigid and very useless in a real fight. It's about showing off, form.
Wing Chun uses a wooden dummy, and is very effective against most fighting styles.
But, I want to learn Krav Maga. It's used by the SAS, and effective against ALL fighting styles, including weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsUAtMuw_M

Maybe but Krav is a Jew art developed fighting Germans and then fighting Palestinians. The one thing I like about it is they drill it into peoples thick heads NEVER to go to the ground if you can avoid it.

The SAS train a lot of different stuff. Systema is far more advanced if your looking for special forces training. Also WT (Mc Wing Chun) is used in Germany for SWAT training.

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It also has a good set of gun disarms and knife defence.eAl851Oxuwo&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s

I agree about training in a fluid system being essential. Thats why I switched to internal martial arts as they are all about flow.

Schopenhauer
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 11:32 PM
I did two forms of Japanese Karate and have my black belt in both. Compared to Chinese martial arts, Japanese is very rigid and very useless in a real fight. It's about showing off, form.
Wing Chun uses a wooden dummy, and is very effective against most fighting styles.
But, I want to learn Krav Maga. It's used by the SAS, and effective against ALL fighting styles, including weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsUAtMuw_M

Karate is Okinawan, not Japanese.

Maybe you should practice an authentic ryu, before making such blanket statements in the future.

Schopenhauer
Wednesday, August 17th, 2011, 11:37 PM
The SAS train a lot of different stuff. Systema is far more advanced if your looking for special forces training. Also WT (Mc Wing Chun) is used in Germany for SWAT training.

My Aikido teacher was invited to teach at a large seminar as few years ago. Two of the leading Systema practitioners were there teaching as well. My teacher spoke very highly of both of them when he came back. Said taking their punches felt like being hit with a sledgehammer.

Astrid Runa
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 11:21 AM
Maybe but Krav is a Jew art developed fighting Germans and then fighting Palestinians. The one thing I like about it is they drill it into peoples thick heads NEVER to go to the ground if you can avoid it.

The SAS train a lot of different stuff. Systema is far more advanced if your looking for special forces training. Also WT (Mc Wing Chun) is used in Germany for SWAT training.

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It also has a good set of gun disarms and knife defence.eAl851Oxuwo&feature=player_detailpage#t=58s

I agree about training in a fluid system being essential. Thats why I switched to internal martial arts as they are all about flow.


Okay. It's Jewish, therefore I shouldn't practice it. Yeah. Not happening. I don't care about it's history. If it works, I'm for it.

Edgard
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 12:25 PM
Okay. It's Jewish, therefore I shouldn't practice it. Yeah. Not happening. I don't care about it's history. If it works, I'm for it.

Jewish or not its kind of basic. Do your really need to study that? You should know everything they do anyway, its basic and they do a lot of hair puling and gouging. Its just the way they train that is effective more than what they do. I have never seen a new move watching one of their video clips.

Anyway the Jewish bit is not just history. All its top people in Krav Maga are still Jewish so if you take it to a high level you will have Jewish teachers. lol

Schopenhauer
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 01:27 PM
Speaking of Krav Maga, a teacher of this attended an Aikido seminar I happened to be attending. Now in usual fashion, my teacher would demonstrate a technique and then we would practice it. Well the Krav Maga guy had this look on his face that basically said this doesn't work, so my teacher showed him how it worked. To this day I never seen anyone dropped with Nikyo that fast. The look on the guy's face was priceless! You could literally see the "wtf" thought bubble over his head.

Astrid Runa
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 02:22 PM
Jewish or not its kind of basic. Do your really need to study that? You should know everything they do anyway, its basic and they do a lot of hair puling and gouging. Its just the way they train that is effective more than what they do. I have never seen a new move watching one of their video clips.

Anyway the Jewish bit is not just history. All its top people in Krav Maga are still Jewish so if you take it to a high level you will have Jewish teachers. lol

Krav Maga is useful for women especially. It's the use of moves that don't require a large amount of body strength to defeat your opponent, like say in Judo. In the two Japanese fighting style classes I took part in, it was all about using your opponents body against them, which requires muscle. There were a lot of lifting moves that were difficult for me personally to do because I wasn't as built as the others. Though, that being said, I was very fast and agile in sparring matches. But the stiffness and form required in both forms of fighting styles slowed me down in real fights, which is why I gave up as soon as I got my black belt.

Mvix
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 02:34 PM
I'd like to suggest Judo. Judo is used by Police and military all around the world and what's good about it is that your not training in this way "if this happens, than I'll do that and follow with this". Instead Judo techniques are trained and then you train by fighting with them, in this way you will act to every attack because no one fights the same way.

Judo Includes: throws, chokes and arm locks.
The throws are the fundamentals of Judo and if you don't learn how to take a throw correctly you will get injured. These throws are very effective and one throw can knock an opponent out (I ones hit the back of my head to the mat and got a concussion). The arm locks can destroy joints forever and chokes can take out an enemy in maters if seconds.

Now when you see competitions they may look slow but that's because both Judokas have practiced to counter every throw and they also have great balance. I weigh under 70kg and I have easily thrown people a head taller than me and 30kg heavier than me. I don't even have to throw most people who don't know Judo because the force of your grip and pull will be enough to take them of their feet and onto their stomach.
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Judo also includes Kata's that have disarming techniques against knifes,rifles and pistols.

Edgard
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 02:39 PM
Krav Maga is useful for women especially. It's the use of moves that don't require a large amount of body strength to defeat your opponent, like say in Judo. In the two Japanese fighting style classes I took part in, it was all about using your opponents body against them, which requires muscle. There were a lot of lifting moves that were difficult for me personally to do because I wasn't as built as the others. Though, that being said, I was very fast and agile in sparring matches. But the stiffness and form required in both forms of fighting styles slowed me down in real fights, which is why I gave up as soon as I got my black belt.

I think Karate is often done in a stiff way but this is more the fault of the instructors than the style. White Crane Kung Fu is very similar in form to a lot of Karate and they use tension in some training but it is not at all stiff in application.

What I like about internal martial arts is they increase your power in a way not dependent on build and a bulky body. Krav is not like that as it go's for weak points but Systema is.

Mvix
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 02:46 PM
There were a lot of lifting moves that were difficult for me personally to do because I wasn't as built as the others.

It takes time but when the technique is mastered it requires almost no force.
There was a girl that practiced in our club and she sometimes had to compete with boys in heavier categories and did sometimes win. She was not at all boyish but but very feminine, it was her technique that was great not her strength.

Techniques are about leverage if you're struggling to pull someone of the ground then it's not being done correctly.
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Schopenhauer
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 10:15 PM
According to legend, jujutsu was created so that a smaller person could defeat a larger one.

If you are relying on brute strength to make your techniques work, then there is something fundamentally wrong with your technique.

Schopenhauer
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 10:18 PM
I think Karate is often done in a stiff way but this is more the fault of the instructors than the style. White Crane Kung Fu is very similar in form to a lot of Karate and they use tension in some training but it is not at all stiff in application.

What I like about internal martial arts is they increase your power in a way not dependent on build and a bulky body. Krav is not like that as it go's for weak points but Systema is.

You often hear this about Karate in general, that it's too static and has an over-reliance on kata, but I do not think this is the case. If you're stiff, then you need to loosen up. It's not the art, but the artist.

Astrid Runa
Thursday, August 18th, 2011, 10:49 PM
You often hear this about Karate in general, that it's too static and has an over-reliance on kata, but I do not think this is the case. If you're stiff, then you need to loosen up. It's not the art, but the artist.

It's not the artist, it's the teacher.
Two forms of Japanese fighting, both the same styles of teaching. Sorry, but you won't change my mind about something that I did for 10 years.

Schopenhauer
Friday, August 19th, 2011, 12:11 AM
It's not the artist, it's the teacher.
Two forms of Japanese fighting, both the same styles of teaching. Sorry, but you won't change my mind about something that I did for 10 years.

Well if the teacher is off so too will be the students.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not quite sure what point your were trying to make.

EQ Fighter
Friday, August 19th, 2011, 12:55 AM
Best Martial Art against multiple attackers.

And Assault Rifle.

AK-47 or AR-15/M-16 Take your pick. ;)

M÷÷v
Friday, August 19th, 2011, 01:29 AM
Well if the teacher is off so too will be the students.



This is very much true. And may I add that the vast majority of the teachers out there are very much off. Mostly they just show you the moves and how to do them correctly to get your belt and show you some fight and that┤s it. Oh, and they take your money for that. Such approach for Japanese and Chinese martial arts is a very bad one as it doesn┤t even scratch the surface of it all.

I went on to practice karate when I was a kid and there was only one club in my area that had 2 teachers working. The concept they developed was such as I described previously - 2 guys working with way too many people, showing only moves and how to work out a kata and counting money. I quit after I got my green belt (Shotokan).

Schopenhauer
Friday, August 19th, 2011, 01:42 AM
This is very much true. And may I add that the vast majority of the teachers out there are very much off. Mostly they just show you the moves and how to do them correctly to get your belt and show you some fight and that┤s it. Oh, and they take your money for that. Such approach for Japanese and Chinese martial arts is a very bad one as it doesn┤t even scratch the surface of it all.

I went on to practice karate when I was a kid and there was only one club in my area that had 2 teachers working. The concept they developed was such as I described previously - 2 guys working with way too many people, showing only moves and how to work out a kata and counting money. I quit after I got my green belt (Shotokan).

Ideally, you should be learning from your teacher one on one. This is correct form of direct transmission from teacher to student.

Of course finding a good teacher is hard.

Assembly line "dojos" should, of course, be shunned like the proverbial plague.

Feyn
Monday, August 29th, 2011, 08:30 PM
Best you have a heckler&koch XM29 OICW (objective individual combat weapon)

There are severall versions of it, the one i prefer is basically an infantry rifle (especially light and short version of the HK-G36) with roughly equal fire power to the standart us infantry rifle, but mounted on top of it is a 20x28mm smart-grenade launcher with severall shots (standart is a 5 shot magazine), and a top-mounted computer-assisted sighting system with integrated laser rangefinder, thermal vision night vision capabilities, and up to 6x optical telescopic sigh. Here the article with a few specs :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29_OICW

When I first saw that thing i fell in love ;)

But unarmed I try to implement the secret techniques of runa-wayquick ;) It works best against opponents that are slower then you, since instead of power its strenght lies in speed

Edgard
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 06:57 PM
3 vs 1

Even a Negro can benefit from basic martial arts training. His skill level was not good but the thick skull seemed to help him. His positioning is not to bad at first wile trying to avoid being encircled.

Lol its funny how they assume the guys are skin heads just because they were white. I don't doubt the black started it.

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My point in posting this is to highlight how essential it is to have some training if your are likely to be attacked and lets face it this stuff happens to whites more.

Funny how the police instantly investigate this as a hate crime but in the US when it happens to whites it is seen as not race related. Still they guys look a bit retarded as their no shirts policy shows.

We on this forum should all train a martial art.

This is the video of the incident for analysis. Sadly it has all the right on PC commentary attached.

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Leonhardt
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 08:14 PM
The videos in the previous post showed how to not allow yourself to become surrounded, and not take punches from all sides. It is sometimes called staying outside of the circle.
Try to not get grabbed, and dragged to the ground.
Rolling techniques, and getting up from the ground quickly are also important.
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Basically, it takes some study to survive this type of situation.

Against multiple attackers I will say some form of Combatives(think special forces type training), where you remove the threats as quickly as possible.
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Plenty of side videos to watch also, one could watch for quite awhile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOdwJrZzZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20_3Yk3B6DM&feature=related
It is still much better to have tools, steel toes, and numbers

Edgard
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 09:45 PM
The videos in the previous post showed how to not allow yourself to become surrounded, and not take punches from all sides. It is sometimes called staying outside of the circle.
Try to not get grabbed, and dragged to the ground.
Rolling techniques, and getting up from the ground quickly are also important.
x9Nn_lwetyg
Basically, it takes some study to survive this type of situation.

Against multiple attackers I will say some form of Combatives(think special forces type training), where you remove the threats as quickly as possible.
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Plenty of side videos to watch also, one could watch for quite awhile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVOdwJrZzZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20_3Yk3B6DM&feature=related
It is still much better to have tools, steel toes, and numbers

Thanks. It is correct the Negro made a lot of mistakes in that fight. Still he would not have done even that with no training. Awareness and positioning are paramount. Do not get encircled and do not trip on an obstacle.

Also I like your emphasis on real hard technique to end the opponents combat effectiveness as quickly as possible. You may not get the chance to hit them twice as their buddies will be on you fast. Having the ability to put someone down fast seems the third key element to success.

So far then we have awareness, positioning and fast elimination.

Can you add any other key elements to that? I think that stability, the ability to keep on your feet should be another but that seems key to all effective martial art.

One thing I have been shown that is fun is trying to get your opponents lined up and throwing one opponent into another.:D Still that was from my Wing Chun days. I think WC is missing a lot of the knock out power needed for this job, at least before a high level of proficiency is reached.

Edgard
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 10:32 PM
This is an example of the power I would like to have if in that situation and that you can develop given the right training. Think what that would do to someone in a fight.

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Now that is how to hit someone :thumbup

Or like this

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karolvs
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 11:02 PM
Martial arts training is not as effective as you think. Think Military styled training. In the Marines my drill instructor would call out anyone with marrtial arts training and take them out in under two seconds. Its all about the weak spots...eyes, knees, throat, etc. Me and my fellow Marines have put these tactics to the test, they work even against MMA pros, when you are fighting for your life, there is no better techniques

Leonhardt
Sunday, October 9th, 2011, 11:26 PM
So far then we have awareness, positioning and fast elimination.

Can you add any other key elements to that? I think that stability, the ability to keep on your feet should be another but that seems key to all effective martial art.
On my previous post I got a little carried away with examples of moves to possibly use.
Some people may need an adrenaline stress course to be able to even get started in a street fight, or know when to start. If they allow themselves to get crowded, they have already started from a bad situation.
Many systems start with footwork and defensive parrying. Stability and staying on your feet would be covered in clinch work. Also, I did not cover people that will try to lift and slam a person on the concrete.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeD_SeMBuWo&feature=related
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0XStJXoZWo&feature=related
I have seen a situation where both of the person's arms were grabbed by multiple people, but I do not have the answer for that one.
I only study self defense of the side, so I will try to leave the personal opinions for people that study in a system.
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I am not super confident on the last video, but it is the type of situation I am talking about.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7haxchM7KfM

Radulfr
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 08:19 AM
Martial arts training is not as effective as you think. Think Military styled training. In the Marines my drill instructor would call out anyone with marrtial arts training and take them out in under two seconds. Its all about the weak spots...eyes, knees, throat, etc. Me and my fellow Marines have put these tactics to the test, they work even against MMA pros, when you are fighting for your life, there is no better techniques

I agree with your post. I am a former machine gunner/lance corporal with the infantery and 2 times bosnian veteran and thinking and acting "military" style is more effective then the average martial art lesson in your local youth centre. As said, it is all about the weak spots and you can take on everybody, even armed with guns and knives. As long as don't pull the trigger you have equal chances of course.

I think Krav Maga is very suitable for learning what to do and how to act in real-life situations as long as you have the proper mind set for it. It has one rule: there are none. And that works perfectly in order to "find" the weak spots of your foe and taking advantage of them.

Neophyte
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 10:46 AM
The videos in the previous post showed how to not allow yourself to become surrounded, and not take punches from all sides. It is sometimes called staying outside of the circle.
Try to not get grabbed, and dragged to the ground.
Rolling techniques, and getting up from the ground quickly are also important.


Indeed. And never, ever, go to the ground voluntarily no matter what the BJJ crowd says.

Therefore it is rather "funny" to see the US Army's present FM 21-150, all that is missing is the models wearing speedos. :P Some people say it's that way since the Army does not want to get sued for some private killing some civilian in a bar brawl, so they teach them "safe" techniques to stay on the safe side. At least that crap is supposed to be good for morale or something.

Stealth
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 11:53 AM
I guess everyone has their own opinion on what's best. No right or wrong answer here. My experiences are I have done boxing (2 years) and karate (brown belt) in the past and switched to WT or Wing Tsun. It is a style of self defence that is not a sport and is more oriented toward dealing with street style fights and multiple attackers. Basically we train to move in as soon as someone initiates an attack and keep going with fists, hands, knees, elbows, feet etc, until the opponent is neutralised. Preferred not to go to the ground but we also have ground fighting sessions just in case. I am a lot more confident with this as we do a lot of scenario training, people, screaming at you, confined spaces, lights off, people attacking from all directions etc. - gets the adrenalin going! Have been doing for nearly 4 years and loving it. Also works for women. Check out www.wingtsun.com.au

Neophyte
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 05:59 PM
My problem with a lot of training that takes place is that it does not focus on transition to a weapon. You engage unarmed and then keep on engaging unarmed when you should reach for something more substantive than your empty hand. If you look at police training the focus is to get the assailant off focus and then go for CS, taser, baton or gun; you do not engage in a fistfight with all those goodies on your belt.

I feel that many martial arts focus too much on the means and not enough on the ends. Fighting is about winning and not about techniques, and I would rather be able to deploy a collapsible baton as quickly as possible than having the perfect sidekick.

Edgard
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 09:46 PM
I guess everyone has their own opinion on what's best. No right or wrong answer here. My experiences are I have done boxing (2 years) and karate (brown belt) in the past and switched to WT or Wing Tsun. It is a style of self defence that is not a sport and is more oriented toward dealing with street style fights and multiple attackers. Basically we train to move in as soon as someone initiates an attack and keep going with fists, hands, knees, elbows, feet etc, until the opponent is neutralised. Preferred not to go to the ground but we also have ground fighting sessions just in case. I am a lot more confident with this as we do a lot of scenario training, people, screaming at you, confined spaces, lights off, people attacking from all directions etc. - gets the adrenalin going! Have been doing for nearly 4 years and loving it. Also works for women. Check out www.wingtsun.com.au

Its not a bad system Wing Tsun at least one German SWAT team uses it although I cant recall the name off the top of my head. Also US special forces use some parts of Wing Chun. Duncan Leung also trained some US special forces teams. His teachings are freely available and effective. I went to a seminar of his and would really not want to fight him.

I did Wing Chun for about 3 years or was it 4? I also tried its patented version Wing Tsun and liked it. Currently I am all about internal martial arts. My favorite Xing Yi was drilled into elite Chinese units on more than one occasion, the latest being WW2. They incorporated some of it into modern Chinese military Sanda the classified system that works unlike that Wushu Sanda that gets beaten every time but looks nice. :D

Edgard
Monday, October 10th, 2011, 09:52 PM
My problem with a lot of training that takes place is that it does not focus on transition to a weapon. You engage unarmed and then keep on engaging unarmed when you should reach for something more substantive than your empty hand. If you look at police training the focus is to get the assailant off focus and then go for CS, taser, baton or gun; you do not engage in a fistfight with all those goodies on your belt.

I feel that many martial arts focus too much on the means and not enough on the ends. Fighting is about winning and not about techniques, and I would rather be able to deploy a collapsible baton as quickly as possible than having the perfect sidekick.

This old devils specialty seems to be weapon transition. He trained a lot of special forces back in the day.

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Vintersorg
Saturday, October 29th, 2011, 10:53 PM
I am a blue belt in BJJ, wrestled for about a decade in youth leagues on up into high school and trained Muay Thai for about 5 years. It is your basic "MMA" set up, although I never cross trained, simply trained in each respective discipline. With this in mind, I can say other than some basic hip throws/arm drags, wrestling and jiu-jitsu are pretty useless against multiple people. Muay Thai is much better in that regard.

I have begun studying Aikido after having moved. For the real world, I will honestly say that I prefer Aikido to other the other martial arts I have studied. Can I throw someone down, bash their skull in, break their bones, or choke the life out of them? Absolutely. But that level of force is not always justifiable to a court. I have a family and real world responsibilities to be aware of. If I can incapacitate an attacker in the most efficient, non-lethal means possible, I will end up not only saving my skin but be relatively free of legal consequence.

In Aikido, we routinely train for multiple attackers. Our randori consists of fending ourselves from a constant stream of strikes and grabs from multiple opponents. Despite being a grappling art, you never feel "tied-up" with opponents, nor do you necessarily need to go to the ground with them. It all flows and blends well and allows for ease of movement. Aikido is based on the samurai fighting style that was used on the battlefield. Yes, you may be squared off in one on one combat but at any moment someone may strike you with a katana or tanto from any angle, you need to be able to effectively deal with that scenario as well.

I am lucky that my dojo focuses on the martial aspects of Aikido, as many schools focus on the -ki-, which is a more spiritual aspect (think throwing opponents through the air with a flick of your wrist). Our Aikido is very combat oriented.

In a multiple attacker scenario, I would use a combination of Muay Thai (for quick, primarily defensive strikes) and Aikido (to incapacitate via throws and joint locks) and flee as quickly as possible.

All that said, the best defense in any life-threatening self-defense situation is a gun. I am confident in my fighting abilities but guns are the great equalizer. If my grip is off slightly, the blade plunges into me. For the most part, a gun removes that room for error. Bang bang. The only issue with using that is ensuring, without a shadow of a doubt, that you had no other option.

Edgard
Monday, October 31st, 2011, 05:24 PM
I am a blue belt in BJJ, wrestled for about a decade in youth leagues on up into high school and trained Muay Thai for about 5 years. It is your basic "MMA" set up, although I never cross trained, simply trained in each respective discipline. With this in mind, I can say other than some basic hip throws/arm drags, wrestling and jiu-jitsu are pretty useless against multiple people. Muay Thai is much better in that regard.

I have begun studying Aikido after having moved. For the real world, I will honestly say that I prefer Aikido to other the other martial arts I have studied. Can I throw someone down, bash their skull in, break their bones, or choke the life out of them? Absolutely. But that level of force is not always justifiable to a court. I have a family and real world responsibilities to be aware of. If I can incapacitate an attacker in the most efficient, non-lethal means possible, I will end up not only saving my skin but be relatively free of legal consequence.

In Aikido, we routinely train for multiple attackers. Our randori consists of fending ourselves from a constant stream of strikes and grabs from multiple opponents. Despite being a grappling art, you never feel "tied-up" with opponents, nor do you necessarily need to go to the ground with them. It all flows and blends well and allows for ease of movement. Aikido is based on the samurai fighting style that was used on the battlefield. Yes, you may be squared off in one on one combat but at any moment someone may strike you with a katana or tanto from any angle, you need to be able to effectively deal with that scenario as well.

I am lucky that my dojo focuses on the martial aspects of Aikido, as many schools focus on the -ki-, which is a more spiritual aspect (think throwing opponents through the air with a flick of your wrist). Our Aikido is very combat oriented.

In a multiple attacker scenario, I would use a combination of Muay Thai (for quick, primarily defensive strikes) and Aikido (to incapacitate via throws and joint locks) and flee as quickly as possible.

All that said, the best defense in any life-threatening self-defense situation is a gun. I am confident in my fighting abilities but guns are the great equalizer. If my grip is off slightly, the blade plunges into me. For the most part, a gun removes that room for error. Bang bang. The only issue with using that is ensuring, without a shadow of a doubt, that you had no other option.

Aikido done well is really something and Muay Thai is a respectable basic striking art. That mix should work well. What you train should be dependent on what you want to achieve. Aikido is a lot deeper than Muay Thai. You might like arts like Bagua the system used by imperial body guards back in the day. A good all around system.

Edgard
Monday, October 31st, 2011, 07:23 PM
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As you can see from the form it is just full of applications for throwing and striking. I hope to study it one day.

Neophyte
Monday, October 31st, 2011, 07:45 PM
As you can see from the form it is just full of applications for throwing and striking. I hope to study it one day.

He's letting his opponent's hands too close to his body. Remember that in studies done with police officers around 90 percent of them fail to spot a knife in their opponents' hands. So if your opponents opens a folder or an automatic knife or something like that, chances are that you will fail to notive it. Then letting their hands come that close will be the end of you.

Compare that with what's practised in, say, Aikido. There you will find a strong emphasis on either controlling their hands or keeping them as far away from your body as possible.

Edgard
Monday, October 31st, 2011, 08:09 PM
He's letting his opponent's hands too close to his body. Remember that in studies done with police officers around 90 percent of them fail to spot a knife in their opponents' hands. So if your opponents opens a folder or an automatic knife or something like that, chances are that you will fail to notive it. Then letting their hands come that close will be the end of you.

Compare that with what's practised in, say, Aikido. There you will find a strong emphasis on either controlling their hands or keeping them as far away from your body as possible.

He is just demonstrating defence from surprise a grab so it will obviously be in close. It is for if you are surprised or closed in on.

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Look at where he is positioning himself and the description of long and short energy. He is well placed to avoid a knife. Bagua is famous for getting around an opponent and avoiding being hit.
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You clearly don't want people close in but IMA's specialise at dealing with it when it happens.

Van Wellenkamp
Monday, October 31st, 2011, 10:30 PM
Duane Dieter has a wonderful course that will incorporate weapons. It is easy to learn.

Edgard
Sunday, November 13th, 2011, 01:33 PM
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The knife is a very deadly weapon and its worth keeping that in mind.

Vry Burgher
Tuesday, December 6th, 2011, 11:31 AM
This will (for understood reasons) probably not go down well, Krav Maga is an outstanding system of self defence against multiple attackers. It is not a martial art but rather a simple system of practical self defence.

Against multiple attackers the rules are pretty simple.

Stay on your feet, move around a lot, go over onto the attack against THEM, line them up so you deal with them one by one and of course your strikes have to be crippling. Strikes are aimed at the inside of the ankle which breaks with little pressure, the middle of the shin which easily shatters, the groin, side of the knee, smack on the ear, the eyes, throat, jaw etc...

Of course with a decent knife training course accessing a good knife in a situation like that is also a good defence. Your attacks will be more cutting to traumatize attackers than to actually stab and kill. Stabbing could get your knife stuck in a bone or hard muscle or clothes. A good cut across the face is a quick fight stopper.

Certain Israeli exponents of Krav Maga have withstood sustained assaults by as 14 attackers!

Edgard
Thursday, February 9th, 2012, 03:29 PM
This will (for understood reasons) probably not go down well, Krav Maga is an outstanding system of self defence against multiple attackers. It is not a martial art but rather a simple system of practical self defence.

Against multiple attackers the rules are pretty simple.

Stay on your feet, move around a lot, go over onto the attack against THEM, line them up so you deal with them one by one and of course your strikes have to be crippling. Strikes are aimed at the inside of the ankle which breaks with little pressure, the middle of the shin which easily shatters, the groin, side of the knee, smack on the ear, the eyes, throat, jaw etc...

Of course with a decent knife training course accessing a good knife in a situation like that is also a good defence. Your attacks will be more cutting to traumatize attackers than to actually stab and kill. Stabbing could get your knife stuck in a bone or hard muscle or clothes. A good cut across the face is a quick fight stopper.

Certain Israeli exponents of Krav Maga have withstood sustained assaults by as 14 attackers!
I have seen nothing new in Krav Maga, it just makes a priority of training the dirty tricks and keeping it simple. A good philosophy.

14 sounds a lot for a Jew to withstand lol, is this more of their famous truthfulness? All styles have stories of one man beating many but most are hard to believe. I am not saying it is not posible just that it seems unlikly and Krav seems like it could not take you to that level of skill. Its good for a military art as they keep you on your feet at all cost and goes for the weeks spots.

renownedwolf
Thursday, February 9th, 2012, 06:04 PM
The last time I heard of something similar was a Gurkha on a train that was hijacked in India.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19139_9-acts-vigilantism-straight-out-comic-book_p2.html

Vry Burgher
Friday, February 10th, 2012, 03:37 PM
I have seen nothing new in Krav Maga, it just makes a priority of training the dirty tricks and keeping it simple. A good philosophy.

There isn't. It's all copied from Akido, Jiu (Jew??) Jitsu, boxing, BJJ and then inserts various dirty tricks.


14 sounds a lot for a Jew to withstand lol, is this more of their famous truthfulness? All styles have stories of one man beating many but most are hard to believe.

Heheheheheh

Agreed but it was not. It was an American who went to Israel; to learn "the most dangerous martial art in the world" (Yaaawwwnnnn)... it was on History Channel and video taped. I'll see if I can find it.


I am not saying it is not posible just that it seems unlikly and Krav seems like it could not take you to that level of skill. Its good for a military art as they keep you on your feet at all cost and goes for the weeks spots.

Good for a street fight

But as someone once recently pointed out to me... in any martial arts you eventually reach a level of proficiency where you are capable of successfully defending yourself against anyone.

Well I'd exclude wrestling and BJJ because they concentrate on the single opponents that goes to ground. That said... in training there is nothing nicer than locking in a rear naked choke and hearing that quick desperate tap...tap...tap...tap...tap on the dojo floor...

SaxonPagan
Friday, February 10th, 2012, 04:13 PM
Certain Israeli exponents of Krav Maga have withstood sustained assaults by as 14 attackers!


Liars!

theTasmanian
Friday, February 10th, 2012, 08:05 PM
Liars!

:D Jews....goes without saying:lol

Edgard
Friday, February 10th, 2012, 08:52 PM
This Russian reworking of Aryan martial writings looks effective. A NS historical link as well.

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Angelcynn Beorn
Sunday, February 12th, 2012, 08:34 PM
I don't trust the effectiveness of any art that doesn't allow full speed sparring or randori.

Edgard
Sunday, February 12th, 2012, 08:47 PM
I don't trust the effectiveness of any art that doesn't allow full speed sparring or randori.

True but sparing is not the only way. Joe Calzaghe never sparred in training but was and is a very skilled fighter.

Unity Mitford
Sunday, February 12th, 2012, 09:02 PM
I would like to try boxing... :)

Angelcynn Beorn
Sunday, February 12th, 2012, 09:37 PM
True but sparing is not the only way. Joe Calzaghe never sparred in training but was and is a very skilled fighter.

He kept sparring to a minimum once he was champion, but he would have done hundreds of rounds of sparring whilst learning to box as an amateur. That kind of pressure testing is the only way you can learn to apply your techniques against a resisting opponent.

That's why Judo and Aikido have such differing reputations in the Martial Arts world, despite having similar techniques. Judokas practice their technique against resisting opponents almost every session, Aikidokas essentially never do.

Edgard
Sunday, February 12th, 2012, 09:50 PM
He kept sparring to a minimum once he was champion, but he would have done hundreds of rounds of sparring whilst learning to box as an amateur. That kind of pressure testing is the only way you can learn to apply your techniques against a resisting opponent.

That's why Judo and Aikido have such differing reputations in the Martial Arts world, despite having similar techniques. Judokas practice their technique against resisting opponents almost every session, Aikidokas essentially never do.

Thats true but people over do sparing. If you are learning traditional martial arts you should only do fast free sparing as the last step in a very long process. This is why we have so may "traditional" martial artist who move like kick boxers and can't fight . Sparing is just part of the picture. It also depends on the art itself. No way will free sparing help you in Taiji if you haven't already been learning for years (yes people who use Taiji for fighting sparr).