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Euclides
Monday, March 15th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation

L. PEREIRA1, 2, M. J. PRATA1, 2 and A. AMORIM1, 2


The analysis of the hypervariable regions I and II of mitochondrial DNA in Portugal showed that this Iberian population presents a higher level of diversity than some neighbouring populations. The classification of the different sequences into haplogroups revealed the presence of all the most important European haplogroups, including those that expanded through Europe in the Palaeolithic, and those whose expansion has occurred during the Neolithic. Additionally a rather distinct African influence was detected in this Portuguese survey, as signalled by the distributions of haplogroups U6 and L, present at higher frequencies than those usually reported in Iberian populations. The geographical distributions of both haplogroups were quite different, with U6 being restricted to North Portugal whereas L was widespread all over the country. This seems to point to different population movements as the main contributors for the two haplogroup introductions. We hypothesise that the recent Black African slave trade could have been the mediator of most of the L sequence inputs, while the population movement associated with the Muslim rule of Iberia has predominantly introduced U6 lineages.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, March 16th, 2004, 02:54 AM
European sequences must have originated during the Upper Palaeolithic and suffered a considerable post-glacial expansion; about 15% of the sequences reflect a restricted Neolithic input, from the Near East toward the West of Europe, and only 1% of the sequences represent more recent influences of Asian and African mtDNA pools.

Another peculiarity of the Iberian mitochondrial pool is the presence of sequences belonging to the U6 group (Richards et al. 1998), signalling a North African influence that has not been detected elsewhere in other European populations.

In Portugal, as well as generally in Iberia, many migration waves from both North and sub-Saharan African populations are well documented. The geographical proximity of North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula certainly afforded many opportunities for mutual population contacts. Among them, we stress the movement of Berbers and Arabs that took place during the very recent Muslim rule of Iberia (from the 8th century to the end of the 15th, in some regions). In addition, many sub-Saharan individuals entered the region during the slave trade period, from its very beginning (middle 15th century) until its total ban in the late 19th century.

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred
Berber/Arab movement,have introduced a significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade. Nine out of 17 L sequences found in this study showed matches with widespread African sequences, and with regard to the 8 remaining sequences the absence of matches can be due to the present bias in the description of sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. Broad areas corresponding to Ivory Coast, Angola and Mozambique, which represented very important sources of African slaves, remain uncharacterised.

There were more African slaves in Portugal than in any other European country: in 1550, Lisbon boasted 10000 resident slaves in a population of 100000, and Portugal as a whole probably had over 40000 (Thomas, 1998). In the mid-sixteenth century the birth of slaves' children was stimulated in Portugal for internal traffic purposes. Inter-breeding between autochthonous individuals and African slaves certainly occurred and the predominant mating must have been between slave African females and autochthonous males, due to social pressures and also for legal reasons: offspring of slave females would be slaves, whereas offspring of slave males would not. Therefore, breeding between slave African males and white females, besides being socially repressed, would not bring any economic profit. If the pattern of genetic admixture was markedly sex influenced, the signature of this recent African influence would be expected to be very different in the maternally inherited gene pool and in the paternally inherited one. In a recent study based on Y chromosome biallelic markers (Pereira et al. 2000) we have reported the absence of typical sub-Saharan haplogroups in the Y chromosome Portuguese pool. This finding, and the detection of L sequences at 7.1% in the mitochondrial pool, both seem to support the above-mentioned pattern of admixture with African slaves.

Sharing the features of mtDNA diversity generally registered in Europeans (all European haplogroups were detected), Portugal has in addition received significant North and sub-Saharan African influences. Frequencies of haplogroups specific to these regions were higher than those reported for other European populations: 7% of North African sequences were detected (restricted to North Portugal and representing almost 3%of the total sample), and sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%.

+Suomut+
Wednesday, March 24th, 2004, 12:55 AM
...In the mid-sixteenth century the birth of slaves' children was stimulated in Portugal for internal traffic purposes. Inter-breeding between autochthonous individuals and African slaves certainly occurred and the predominant mating must have been between slave African females and autochthonous males, due to social pressures and also for legal reasons: offspring of slave females would be slaves, whereas offspring of slave males would not. Therefore, breeding between slave African males and white females, besides being socially repressed, would not bring any economic profit. If the pattern of genetic admixture was markedly sex influenced, the signature of this recent African influence would be expected to be very different in the maternally inherited gene pool and in the paternally inherited one. In a recent study based on Y chromosome biallelic markers (Pereira et al. 2000) we have reported the absence of typical sub-Saharan haplogroups in the Y chromosome Portuguese pool. This finding, and the detection of L sequences at 7.1% in the mitochondrial pool, both seem to support the above-mentioned pattern of admixture with African slaves...They had the sort of society back then (and perhaps even today) that were I there they would have caused me to throw-up every day. Well, it seems apparent, though, based on the above, the 'black man with the White woman' scenario was not very common for whatever reasons and I can think of a few...the main one being probably the White men (including the perverted, race-mixing ones) were proficient at 'hogging' ALL the women.

EXCELLENT WORK NORDHAMMER! :)

Nordhammer
Thursday, March 25th, 2004, 04:37 PM
They had the sort of society back then (and perhaps even today) that were I there they would have caused me to throw-up every day. Well, it seems apparent, though, based on the above, the 'black man with the White woman' scenario was not very common for whatever reasons and I can think of a few...the main one being probably the White men (including the perverted, race-mixing ones) were proficient at 'hogging' ALL the women.

EXCELLENT WORK NORDHAMMER! :)

Thanks to Euclides for providing the source.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Today, there is just as much to be disgusted about, even more. Now it is not only the men racemixing and betraying their people, but also the women. According to statistics, women are worse.

Recent events with a certain Skadi member have shown me this. There is no loyalty anymore, it's every man for himself, or in this case, every woman for herself.

Death to Lilith.

PeterMW
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 03:15 PM
This paper contradicts Mynydd's outspoken attack on my position in 'Il Fronte Romanesco', that the Iberian peninsula has received more than its fair share of non-Europid admixture. Thanks for posting it. I hope that being banned doesn't stop him from viewing the forum!

Siegfried
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Some quotes on the Portugese I found on Racial Reality (http://racialreality.shorturl/com):


The influence of the Negroes, however, has been grossly exaggerated, with figures such as "100,000 in the sixteenth century" or "10 percent of the nation's population in the year 1600" being severely inflated. What can be truthfully said is that during the slave trade, a few tens of thousands of Negroes were brought to the metropolis of Lisboa. From there many were shipped to Brasil or to other European countries. Those who remained in Portugal were either sold to wealthy city-dwelling Portuguese, or distributed to the owners of large plantations in the south to provide farm labour, where almost all who survived eventually were absorbed by the population, leaving no trace whatever ... Lisboa has been a magnet for Negroes from the colonies as well, and Negroid features seen in a few seemingly Caucasoid individuals are certainly the result of miscegenation between colonial Negroes and the Portuguese; these traits are not present in the native Portuguese population.
-Carlos Machado, My Portugal


Non-Mediterranean elements in the Portuguese population are rare and of little importance. A few Nordics are scattered throughout but are particularly concentrated in the north. Traces of Dinaric blood, as we have already seen, may likewise be found on the northern coast. ... On the whole, the absorption of Negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial composition of the country. Portugal remains, as it has been since the days of the Muge shell-fish eaters, classic Mediterranean territory.
-Coon, The Races of Europe


In a sample of 542 Portuguese people from all over the country, sub-Saharan mtDNA L sequences were detected at a frequency of ~5% (2.2 in the North, 4.3 in the Center, and 8.6 in the South). This gives the Portuguese an estimated total of 2.5% Negroid ancestry, which ranges from a comparatively large, but not racially significant, 4.3% in the South to a mere 1.1% in the North.
-González et al., Am J Phys Anthro, 2003


Many Portuguese males were leaving the country for the colonies, for Brasil especially, and the population of the nation dwindled to 1.5 million. A labour force was needed to work the farms, and since black Africans had begun to be imported in 1441 as domestic servants, this influx continued in numbers such that by 1550, the towns of Evora and Lisbon had a 10-percent black population. This lot of African slaves was not a happy one, and the black females were not afforded the same protection as the white slaves obtained through earlier conquests were. Consequently, young mestiço girls of mixed descent became prized as mistresses, though not necessarily as wives.
The mortality rate amongst the slaves was high, as they were not afforded proper medical attention. A large number, since they were already familiar with Portuguese culture and the language, were subsequently deported to Brasil, where their presence was needed far more than in Portugal itself. Manumission was possible, and many chose to flee the country upon being freed. However, a portion did remain in Portugal, and miscegenation meant that within a dozen or so generations, a considerable number of the 35,000 black Africans who had once lived in Portugal were blended into the mainstream of the Portuguese population. This sort of thing was not peculiar to Portugal alone; in fact, it occurred in nearly all of the slave-owning European nations, including Spain, France, Italy, the Netherlands, and Britain. The percentage of blacks was highest for Portugal, but the actual numerical figure was higher for Britain. However, in no nation in Europe (including Portugal) was the absorption of blacks significant enough to change the ethnography of the country.
-João Ferreira, The History of Portugal

[emphasis by S.A.]

Johannes de León
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 06:43 PM
just a few notes:

In the mid-sixteenth century the birth of slaves' children was stimulated in Portugal for internal traffic purposes.that encouragement happened towards Brazil... at least i have no knowlegde of any document that proves the contrary...


Therefore, breeding between slave African males and white females, besides being socially repressed, would not bring any economic profit.just want to add that if that happen, the slave would be severely punished (probably killed).

Also, keep in mind that slaves who remained in Portugal were taken to the south (Alentejo) and to the coast line under Lisbon... a very very small negroid population were taken to the countryside, and even less to the north, i've attached a picture were you can see this better, the yellow parts are the ones with more negroid population dating to that time, the one in gray also has some negroid populution, but they were a real minority, so... we don't have to bother ourselves to much with that!

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=96376#post96381 ----> this post has lots of contradictions to what you said... and since i'm portuguese, i must say that almost all of them are quite right!

I've also attached a map to show you where i live... just for you to know that i belong to that part in Portugal that has not been under any "moorish empire"... the same about negroids...

PeterMW
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 07:19 PM
I've also attached a map to show you where i live... just for you to know that i belong to that part in Portugal that has not been under any "moorish empire"... the same about negroids...
I dispute this last claim. How can there have been no "moorish empire" in the N. of Portugal, when to the North in Galicia there was a Berber revolt in 750, because of their treatment by the Arabs. Moreover in 997, Al Mansur reconquered some of the lost Galician territories and sacked Santiago de Compostella. Anyway, do you have conclusive proof that ALL your ancestors came from the "less Negroid" N. of Portugal ? They might have migrated there 5 generations ago from the Alentejo. The only areas of the Iberian peninsula to have escaped "moorish" influence completely are Asturias and the Basque region.

Johannes de León
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 07:49 PM
I dispute this last claim. How can there have been no "moorish empire" in the N. of Portugal, when to the North in Galicia there was a Berber revolt in 750, because of their treatment by the Arabs. Moreover in 997, Al Mansur reconquered some of the lost Galician territories and sacked Santiago de Compostella. Anyway, do you have conclusive proof that ALL your ancestors came from the "less Negroid" N. of Portugal ? They might have migrated there 5 generations ago from the Alentejo. The only areas of the Iberian peninsula to have escaped "moorish" influence completely are Asturias and the Basque region.
Probably you are right... i have no knowledge on that subject... and since i've never seen any map that shows almost *exactly* what the moorish empire borders were... but at least in the map in my history book, these region doesn't have any moorish empire... i don't know the date that the map is referring about... if you have any, i will be glad if you showed me... it's always good to learn more...


Anyway, do you have conclusive proof that ALL your ancestors came from the "less Negroid" N. of Portugal ?in matter of fact i have :P ... my grand father lives on an house that was built by direct ancestry on the 16th/17th centuries (the portuguese golden age) and have passed generation through generation... but my most ancient roots are galician, as you can see by my family name (Johannes de León)... in native portuguese there is no such letter as Y...

PeterMW
Sunday, March 28th, 2004, 09:11 PM
I thought you might like to follow these links to info about Sephardic influences in Galicia and N. Portugal:

http://www.webtourist.net/dest/ribadavia-spain-tourist-information.phtml

http://www.sibetrans.com/trans/transiberia/cohen.htm

http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/042/7.html

http://www.cryptojews.com/cryptoJewsinPortugal.htm

I hope Mynydd can still read this stuff, even though he's banned. So much for the Holy Inquisition!

Siegfried
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 04:36 PM
This paper contradicts Mynydd's outspoken attack on my position in 'Il Fronte Romanesco', that the Iberian peninsula has received more than its fair share of non-Europid admixture. Thanks for posting it. I hope that being banned doesn't stop him from viewing the forum!

Why worry so much about this issue? Portugal is not a threat to Europe's racial make-up; Third World immigration is.

Johannes de León
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Why worry so much about this issue? Portugal is not a threat to Europe's racial make-up; Third World immigration is.
you don't even imagine how i agree with you!

PeterMW
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 07:12 PM
you don't even imagine how i agree with you!
Fair enough, I made my point and won't mention it again.

Nordhammer
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Also, keep in mind that slaves who remained in Portugal were taken to the south (Alentejo) and to the coast line under Lisbon... a very very small negroid population were taken to the countryside, and even less to the north, i've attached a picture were you can see this better, the yellow parts are the ones with more negroid population dating to that time, the one in gray also has some negroid populution, but they were a real minority, so... we don't have to bother ourselves to much with that!

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=96376#post96381 ----> this post has lots of contradictions to what you said... and since i'm portuguese, i must say that almost all of them are quite right!

I've also attached a map to show you where i live... just for you to know that i belong to that part in Portugal that has not been under any "moorish empire"... the same about negroids...

Ironically the U6 haplogroup which is North African, is highest in the North. "Another peculiarity of the Iberian mitochondrial pool is the presence of sequences belonging to the U6 group (Richards et al. 1998), signalling a North African influence that has not been detected elsewhere in other European populations. 7% of North African sequences were detected."

While Negroid mtDNA is spread all over Portugal by the former practice of increasing the number of one's chattel. "Sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%." In comparison, Mexico is 5% Negroid.

Siegfried
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 07:24 PM
you don't even imagine how i agree with you!

That's good to hear :D


Fair enough, I made my point and won't mention it again.

Your point is taken :) It's true that Portugal is in all probability one of the heaviest mixed populations of Europe, but even in Portugal the miscegenation did not substantially change the racial identity of the native population. 'White Nationalists' often use the 1/16th rule; the Portugese are well within that range.
Which, by the way, does not mean I endorse the mixing of the various European ethnic groups on a large scale. They are, however, all White to me.

Siegfried
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 07:26 PM
Ironically the U6 haplogroup which is North African, is highest in the North. "Another peculiarity of the Iberian mitochondrial pool is the presence of sequences belonging to the U6 group (Richards et al. 1998), signalling a North African influence that has not been detected elsewhere in other European populations. 7% of North African sequences were detected."

While Negroid mtDNA is spread all over Portugal by the former practice of increasing the number of one's chattel. "Sub-Saharan African sequences were found to be spread throughout the country, with frequencies between 5% and 9.8%." In comparison, Mexico is 5% Negroid.

But in the case of Mexico, the other 95% isn't White.

Johannes de León
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 08:08 PM
Your point is taken :) It's true that Portugal is in all probability one of the heaviest mixed populations of Europe, but even in Portugal the miscegenation did not substantially change the racial identity of the native population. 'White Nationalists' often use the 1/16th rule; the Portugese are well within that range.
Which, by the way, does not mean I endorse the mixing of the various European ethnic groups on a large scale. They are, however, all White to me.
finally, someone who understands me... you are my new best friend!!! :P

Nordhammer
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 08:11 PM
'White Nationalists' often use the 1/16th rule; the Portugese are well within that range.
Which, by the way, does not mean I endorse the mixing of the various European ethnic groups on a large scale. They are, however, all White to me.

1/16th Negroid is white to you? :)

The 1/16th rule was former American law concerning Mongoloid admixture, not Negroid. Negroid has always been a "one-drop rule".

Johannes de León
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 08:28 PM
1/16th Negroid is white to you? :)

The 1/16th rule was former American law concerning Mongoloid admixture, not Negroid. Negroid has always been a "one-drop rule".
i do not tend to harm you in any kind, so, don't feel offended with this comment...

but, have you ever been to Portugal???

not that this that matters, but here (in northern Portugal), i've seen lots of Germanic Nordid people, with less admixture than much people i saw when i went to Germany...

as you probably know... great power nations always attracted foreign people... the portuguese golden age brought foreing people, as well as Germany, after the Industrial Revolution... lot's of jews immigrated to Germany... Fortunately, Hitler made us all the favor to almost extinguish them... i dont' know if you understand my point, i hope you do! :P

(PS: sorry, my english can be really strange sometimes!)

PeterMW
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 08:34 PM
as you probably know... great power nations always attracted foreign people... the portuguese golden age brought foreing people, as well as Germany, after the Industrial Revolution... lot's of jews immigrated to Germany

I wasn't going to mention this stuff again, but what the heck...

Johannes de León has a point. Whatever happened to those black African soldiers that the French stationed in the Rhineland after the end of WW1 ? Or the Namibians that travelled/were transported to Germany during its colonial days ? Not quite on the Portuguese scale, but there nonetheless. The Romans might not have conquered Germany in its entirety, but they had a good go, and MUST have used soldiers from other parts of the empire. Boris Becker may be carrying on an old German tradition. How small is your one drop ?

Siegfried
Monday, March 29th, 2004, 08:52 PM
1/16th Negroid is white to you? :)

Well, it's not carved in stone. It's just a rule of the thumb; there can be cases where a 1/16th person could be considered non-White.


The 1/16th rule was former American law concerning Mongoloid admixture, not Negroid.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for pointing that out.


Negroid has always been a "one-drop rule".

As PeterMW asked; how small is 'one-drop'?
I think that, in the end, we can do no other than draw a relatively arbitrary line; a rule of the thumb. The 1/16th rule may be useful.

Graeme
Tuesday, March 30th, 2004, 02:46 PM
It is OK to have the one drop rule for negroid/caucasoid mixtures, but let us be honest, it would be very difficult to recognise 1/16th black as a negroid phenotype. That would be beyond passing, wouldn't it? I have been to Portugal quite a few times and I haven't noticed any conspicuous negroid types there, so the miscegenation took place centuries ago. I would consider the Portuguese as being caucasian Med types. I would have thought the genetic influence of the Moors and Jews would have been more significant to Portugal and Spain than any odd number of black slaves.

Siegfried
Tuesday, March 30th, 2004, 03:09 PM
It is OK to have the one drop rule for negroid/caucasoid mixtures, but let us be honest, it would be very difficult to recognise 1/16th black as a negroid phenotype.

1/16th means one parent of one of your grandparents was non-White, and all your other direct ancestors were White. Most of the times this is barely - if at all - detectable in your physical appearance.

Euclides
Monday, February 14th, 2005, 02:32 PM
'' O trabalho de Antonio Amorim investiga as histórias das linhagens masculina (DNA do cromossomo Y) e feminina (DNA das mitocôndrias) e conclui que são inteiramente distintas. Segundo o autor, "enquanto existe uma significativa proporção de influxo gênico subsaariano nas linhagens femininas, ele está ausente ... nas linhagens masculinas" (p. 38). Segundo Amorim, a interpretação mais plausível residiria no fato de que "enquanto os descendentes dos cruzamentos entre os portugueses e escravas existiram e deixaram descendência, o cruzamento recíproco ou não existiu ou não deixou frutos em número detectável".

WAIZBORT, Ricardo. The quest for intelligibility in Brazilian culture: fragments of an evolutional portrait. Hist. cienc. saude-Manguinhos, Sept./Dec. 2003, vol.10, no.3, p.1105-1113. ISSN 0104-5970

Vitor
Monday, February 14th, 2005, 06:44 PM
'' O trabalho de Antonio Amorim investiga as histórias das linhagens masculina (DNA do cromossomo Y) e feminina (DNA das mitocôndrias) e conclui que são inteiramente distintas. Segundo o autor, "enquanto existe uma significativa proporção de influxo gênico subsaariano nas linhagens femininas, ele está ausente ... nas linhagens masculinas" (p. 38). Segundo Amorim, a interpretação mais plausível residiria no fato de que "enquanto os descendentes dos cruzamentos entre os portugueses e escravas existiram e deixaram descendência, o cruzamento recíproco ou não existiu ou não deixou frutos em número detectável".

WAIZBORT, Ricardo. The quest for intelligibility in Brazilian culture: fragments of an evolutional portrait. Hist. cienc. saude-Manguinhos, Sept./Dec. 2003, vol.10, no.3, p.1105-1113. ISSN 0104-5970

hum...
I bet allmoust all the slaves back in the XV and XVI centuries where MALES!

I repeat, the slaves that portugal had where MALES 95% or even more!
And again this test says there are no Y male sub-saharan genes in Portugal?

So, that 5% to 9.5% of MTDNA genes are probably not from our recent history, it must be very old stuff, because there were no lack of WHITE womans here!
The U6 is not subsaharan but I believe it's stuff from middle east that get an mutation in north-africa to U6, so it might be even less than 6% of MTDNA overal in portugal?

My guess is 3% of old (neolithic invasions?) subsharan genes, because there are no male subsaharan genes...

if less than 6% of the womans have subsaharan (U6 is not subsaharan) genes then if we add the males we get 3% or less of subsaharan genes.
:D

And remember ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes, there were no full isolation, of course more to the north the less the negroid genes... (With some minor increase in some places that had african colonies.)

Btw white and Black couples were FORBIDDEN BY LAW in Portugal until the XIX century...I guess this is something you should know!

If we have subsaharan genes is because we were not isolated, and because of that same reason we have subsaharan genes even in norway. Old stuff!
probably when the sahara went into desert and some of those people went north.

Vitor
Monday, February 14th, 2005, 06:59 PM
haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. 2002), which
perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into
North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)
(Maca-Meyer et al. 2003).

So only slighty more of subsaharan genes than the rest of europe...
2-3% instead of 1-2%?

Remember there are more people in the litoral and north of the country...
2-3% might be the correct number!

Euclides
Thursday, February 17th, 2005, 04:39 AM
mt-DNA haplogroup L (sub-saharan) is widespread all over Portugal and it´s related to absorved Black Slaves. In Norway this marker is much less frequent, and related to modern migrations. Remember that Scandinavian countries are no more '' a nordic reservatoir '' and received a lot of immigrants in last decades.

U6 is restricted to North Portugal ( it is also found in Galicia ),but it´s rare or absent in Southern areas.Some authors ( Arnaiz-Villena,Maca-Meyer ) consider that, at least in part, this Northwest African influence was a consequence of prehistoric links between Iberians and North Africans.But, as we know, the Moorish domination in Iberian Peninsula was very intense,and this country also received Moorish Slaves ( That were also absorved ).

Euclides
Thursday, February 17th, 2005, 05:11 AM
Btw white and Black couples were FORBIDDEN BY LAW in Portugal until the XIX century...I guess this is something you should know!

.


Portuguese people are well knowed by their indulgence and their absence of '' racial identity '', that turned them great miscigenators,not only in their colonies , but also in their own country.

In Madeira Island for example, Slaves were, in 1552 10% of the population and gradually became landowners completely integrated into the society. The sub-Saharan and Moorish slaves gained theirfree status in Madeira as much as 300 years before the official abolition of the slave trade. ( Pereira ECN (1989) Ilhas de Zarco, 4th edn, vol II. Câmara Municipal Funchal, Funchal ).

Euclides
Thursday, February 17th, 2005, 06:09 AM
hum...

And remember ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes, there were no full isolation, of course more to the north the less the negroid genes... (With some minor increase in some places that had african colonies.).


I would like to know this article, showing that ALL european countries have typically 1-2% of subsaharan genes... I just know another work talking about subsaharan mtDNA in Europe ( mtDNA...this thread topic ) , that I posted before. ( http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9393 )



If we have subsaharan genes is because we were not isolated, and because of that same reason we have subsaharan genes even in norway. Old stuff!
probably when the sahara went into desert and some of those people went north.

Sorry, but you are wrong.'' You '' (Portugal ) have subsaharan genes because in the past Portuguese man mixed with their female slaves. The comparation you did , like your theory, makes no sense...If you consider the Slave Trade in Portugal as being ''old '' in your own point of view, that´s ok... but The genetic history of Norway is a little different...

Take a look :
Norwegian mtDNA and Y chromosome
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9393

``One * mtDNA molecule displayed an L2 haplotype, that is typically Afri-can,but is also sporadically found in Southern Europe
and is likely to be a result of more RECENT gene flow. ´´

(Different genetic components in the Norwegian
population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and
Y chromosome polymorphisms - European Journal of Human Genetics (2002) 10, 521-529. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200834 )



* Just one...

Vitor
Tuesday, February 22nd, 2005, 09:47 PM
First do you know why they used slaves as sexual partners in Brazil?
yap there were no portuguese womans around!

If you think that portuguese were different and are blind for races you are Wrong!

Brasiilian whites have more than 70% of non european mithocondria.

So in a sense white Brazilian are not european!

But if you go to the Y-haplogroup it's allmoust entirely european!
So, how come a blind racial portuguese could not allowed those male african or indians genes to enter into the brazilian "white" gene pool?
hum?

There were no lack of europeans MALES, but there were lack of european ladies, that was why they used those .

The indians were accepted, most of that female genes are form indians, they were treated as equals, but sorry that didn't happen with the africans...

For instance, Marques do pombal (one past portuguese/brazil ruler) abolish the marriages between africans and europeans it was as was before FORBIDDEN.
But not the indians ones...that was accepted!

If you knew what was the slaves used for you would knew that most slaves were MALES, so... why it was the womans that put more genes in here?

Racism?
Are the portuguese womans the only racist gender in portugal?
maybe that is true...
:D

those MTDNA genes are possible from north african....go find what are the most common MTDNA in northern africa.

Those investigators, like good multiculturalist PC scientists want to promote unity between africans and Portuguese...
bullshit!

AGain that african genes are not more than 3% of all the genes (males and females), and are probably consequence of muslim invasions or something much older...much older! not only from the slave trade.

slaves were not cheap and most of portuguese population were poor!
and the racial union in portugal was FORBIDDEN, by the society and by the law.
impossible!

In brazil it was different!
;)
They were used in the process of colonization of former colnies by the kings, but not here...it was already colonized you see!
:D

Euclides
Wednesday, February 23rd, 2005, 09:17 PM
First do you know why they used slaves as sexual partners in Brazil?
yap there were no portuguese womans around!

First...this Thread is not about Brazil...it´s about Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal showing North African and Sub-Saharan African influence.
Slaves were used as sexual partners in Brazil and in PORTUGAL not only because '' there were no portuguese womans around '', but because portuguese try to have sex with everything who moves.Portuguese have a historical tradition as great miscigenators :
'' A peculiaridade nacional, contudo, residia na crença em que a inferioridade dos mestiços não era um fato absoluto e que,através da miscigenação com as melhores raças brancas, era possível produzir-se, por uma espécie de seleção natural, um tipo mais branco e evoluído e que esse processo estava acontecendo no Brasil.Para tal, contribíram uma baixa fertilidade dos negros e mulatos, A TRADIÇÃO PORTUGUESA DE CRUZAMENTO INTER-RACIAL e a imigração européia.( Ramos apud Seyferth 1991 )




If you think that portuguese were different and are blind for races you are Wrong!

Brasiilian whites have more than 70% of non european mithocondria.

So in a sense white Brazilian are not european!


Pay attention, this Thread is not about Brazil...it is about Portugal...
I would say that you are wrong.. according with Pena, '' Brazilian whites ''( this people classified theirselfs as being whites ) have 60% and not 70% of non european mt-DNA.Portuguese have 7% of North African and Sub-Saharan African sequences between 5% and 9.8%sequences detected. So in this point of view not only white Brazilians but also white Portugueses are not european.

Euclides
Wednesday, February 23rd, 2005, 09:56 PM
''An important gene flow from Africa was detected in the Atlantic Iberia. Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal, and could be attributed to historic Black slave trade in the area and to a probable Saharan Neolithic influence.''

''As expected, sub-Saharan African influence, represented by baplotypes classified in L and Ml clusters, is important in northwest Africa (26.1%) but negligible in Europe, with the exception of south Portugal (11.7%). ''

'' However, with respect to the sub-Saharan Africa lineages, the recent history of the Black slave trade carried out by the Portuguese (mainly in the 15th and 16th centuries), with a well-documented import in southern Portugal (Godinho, 1983), could also be a plausible alternative to explain the presence of these African haplotypes in this region ''

source: Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe/ Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM .

Euclides
Wednesday, February 23rd, 2005, 10:15 PM
More about Racial Mixing in Portugal:


http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7068

Azorians are a mixed people ( Iberians + Black africans + semitic Jewish)



http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=23153

Mitochondrial DNA affinities at the Atlantic fringe of Europe

Vitor
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 03:14 AM
:)
Granted there are some black genes in Iberia, but it's not from black slaves...
Please!
The moors brought with them some of that stuff I guess...

Africans were not considered even humans until XX century...

Try not to see this stuff in the eyes of a XXI century man, PC was not invented until the XX century...
those findings are from PC propaganda.

I even saw some studies that mentioned that some populations in netherlands have more than 10% of black genes.
:D
hilarious!

If we follow your thoughts southern germans with middle-eastern-berberid Y haplogroup are not european either!

And believe me they have more of that stuff than portuguese!
:)

Again we have 3% of sub-sahran genes, 6% of the portuguese woman have MTDNA from sub-sahara region, so 3%...

but that we already had when we explored the world.

In the time of the portuguese explorations there were not lack of white womans, but plenty of lonely white womans....(in Portugal)
So IT doesn't make sense!

Again the slaves into portugal were mostly MALES, it was more convinient.
reprodution of slaves were not promoted like in the north America...
they indeed disapeared vanished...but not into the gene pool of the portuguese.

PC propaganda might say look france is negro please welcome the negro brother, but that is pure propaganda!

Do you know where the name mulata comes from?
portuguese thought that mulatos were like mules...
mula(mule)->mullata

most european countries have 1-2% of black genes, that is not from recent migration!

Some of it arrived with neolithic invasions (from middle east), and all of europe got their share of that neolithic genes (like southern germans), so that number.

Are europe black?
and so we must welcome the africans into our genes?
It seems that you are saying that!

Vitor
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 03:17 AM
I do not know anything about azores, you might be right there because it was colonized in the XV century, it might got a bigger share of african blood, but I really doubt that is the case...

Vitor
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Specific sub-Saharan lineages appeared mainly restricted to southern Portugal

only in the south, hum...
yap it's closer to africa, and it was later conquered by the northern folks...so the bigger northern african influence.

make sense...

but if that is right (restricted only in the south) again we must drop that 6% of sub-saharan genes to...2%
Southern portugal don't even have 10% of all the portuguese population.
:D

Euclides
Thursday, February 24th, 2005, 10:04 PM
:)


I even saw some studies that mentioned that some populations in netherlands have more than 10% of black genes.
:D
hilarious!

!


Please send us this studies...