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morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 11:03 AM
Neanderthals are compared with modern humans. The results create a tree of races in which they are not sapiens, and in which the races are arranged unusually. Races can be classified and arranged into a tree contrary to those who claim that race does not exist.

The first moderns to diverge are Iberomaurusians (Mechtoids) together with the Andaman islanders. Caucasoids, then Eskimids, then Upper Paleolithic Europeans diverge before a group of Africans (including Capoids) and Australoids.

Neanderthals are considered seperate enough to be a species rather than a subspecies, although the definition of a species is here nothing to do with ability to interbreed. It is therefore nonsense when it is claimed that the study does not support continuity in Europe because they are seperate species, when this has nothing to do with "biological species", just differences. And nobody has ever argued that Neanderthals are more similar to modern humans than we are to each other, so it is dodging the issue of continuity.

My problems with this are that Neanderthals include Amud, which may not be Neanderthal and that the Upper Paleolithic Europeans are treated as a unit when they represent distinct lineages. I would expect a different result if different specimens were ncluded including those that are supposed to be transitional between Neanderthals (or other archaics) and moderns.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 06:43 AM
Great post Atlanto-Med. Unfortunately my adobe acrobat will not enlarge and it is too small for me to read, so your summary is valuable.

Morant did a metrical analysis on all the available UP material. He compared them to modern Europeans and Neanderthals and found the UP material to be inbetween the other two in terms which could be measured. Also, he found that the metrical differences within the UP material, all 25 thousand years of so of it, is less than could be found in a 17th Century London graveyard. This argues that it is ok to lump it together and treat it as a single population.

Amud, as I recall, came from Palestine, about 90 thousand years old, was very long-faced, moderate brow ridges, straight facial profile, moderately narrow nose, dolocephalic, and rather gracile for a Neanderthal.

Amud pre-dates Out of Africa. Why couldn't Amud and the other possible sapiens in Palestine at this time be part of a clinal population which originated from a Neanderthal-sapiens cross and continued to reinforce sapiens genes in Europe until the Out of Africa sapiens arrived. Again, mixing took place and what resulted were Europeans. This would explain the higher cranial capacity for Euorpeans and the fusing of the two species may have had something to do with the modern way Europeans think. Euorpeans where the first to behave differently than sapiens had up until this time and the way they continue to do in Africa. This behavioral difference is reflected in the culture of the time.

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 09:15 AM
Great post Atlanto-Med. Unfortunately my adobe acrobat will not enlarge and it is too small for me to read, so your summary is valuable.

Thank you for your compliment.


Morant did a metrical analysis on all the available UP material. He compared them to modern Europeans and Neanderthals and found the UP material to be inbetween the other two in terms which could be measured. Also, he found that the metrical differences within the UP material, all 25 thousand years of so of it, is less than could be found in a 17th Century London graveyard. This argues that it is ok to lump it together and treat it as a single population.

I find this hard to believe, becauser of the difference between western Cro-Magnons and the Combe Capelle type.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, March 13th, 2004, 07:29 AM
We think of UP material as diverse. We give them individual names such as Cro-Magnon, Grimaldi Negroids, Combe Capelle, etc. These designations seem to reflect individual blood lines or very regional specialities. Coon describes UP types from Western Norway, Ireland and the Balkans. Even seperated by distance and thousands of years, the relationship is apparent. Those modern people which we know and see around us daily all had fossil ancestors which we are familiar with. Combe Capelle has been called everything from Med. to UP to Negroid. I am looking at its profile in Fossil Men by Boule as I am writing this and comparing it with the pictures of the Old Man, Cro-Magnon. They don't look like brothers but they do look like men of the same race. Both are very long skulls for sapiens men. Coon says Combe Capelle is a Med. type but this seems a real stretch to me. Morant used measurements only in his analysis. Of course, give three people a skull to measure and you will get three measurements, but there is nothing we can do about this. I forget the sample size Morant had but he did use statistical methods to arrive at his conclusions. The most sensational conclusion was not the internal consistancy of the UP sample but the fact that it most resembled the Neanderthals before it and the Europeans after it. In other words the UP sample occupied a mid-point between Neanderthals and Europeans.

Somewhere in my archives I have a copy of this study. I photocopied it and kept it for this reason. This was circa 1975, so putting my hands on it now may be a problem but I have run across it from time to time in moving.

morfrain_encilgar
Saturday, March 13th, 2004, 08:13 AM
We think of UP material as diverse. We give them individual names such as Cro-Magnon, Grimaldi Negroids, Combe Capelle, etc. These designations seem to reflect individual blood lines or very regional specialities. Coon describes UP types from Western Norway, Ireland and the Balkans. Even seperated by distance and thousands of years, the relationship is apparent. Those modern people which we know and see around us daily all had fossil ancestors which we are familiar with. Combe Capelle has been called everything from Med. to UP to Negroid. I am looking at its profile in Fossil Men by Boule as I am writing this and comparing it with the pictures of the Old Man, Cro-Magnon. They don't look like brothers but they do look like men of the same race. Both are very long skulls for sapiens men.


In Asia, at the Zkd Upper Cave, three skulls did not resemble each other at all. In North America, Hrdlicka tried to classify all ancient Americans as being the same races as modern Americans, but now it has been found that most early North Americans are closer to Pacific and European populations. So I would imagine that all Upper Paleolithic Europeans are not the same race. I think that similarities between the Upper Paleolithic types is mostly because humans had not yet become the modern races, and they shared robustness and retained archaic attributes.



Coon says Combe Capelle is a Med. type but this seems a real stretch to me. Morant used measurements only in his analysis. Of course, give three people a skull to measure and you will get three measurements, but there is nothing we can do about this. I forget the sample size Morant had but he did use statistical methods to arrive at his conclusions.


Combe Capelle is not Mediterranid. At least the North African and Iberian Mediterranid types are descended from Epipaleolithic West Asians.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 08:56 AM
Anything found in America, by Hrdlicka or anyone else, has to go through the very, very opressive screening of "American Anthropology". This means you can never trust it. Kennewick and similar finds have thrown these ideas into doubt. Morant's had a sample size which met statistical analysis. He said they, (UP), were one population and that they were more similar to each other than a 17th Century London graveyard. Those statements are not so hard for me to believe.