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View Full Version : The Alpine Race, by Earnest A. Hooton



visigodo
Sunday, October 8th, 2006, 09:29 PM
ALPINE RACE.- (Basic brunet round-heads with medium broad noses)
Sorting Criteria:

Hair color: dark brown, medium brown, rarely black.
Eye color: dark brown, medium brown.
Head form: cephalic index over 80, averaging 85; globular heads, wide high foreheads.
Nose form: nasal index over 63, often mesorrhine; nasal profile straight or slightly concave; nose fleshy, “blobby”, often with short, thick, elevated type.Other Characteres:

Skin color: olive or brunet white.
Hair quantity: abundant, especially heavy beard and body hair.
Face form: usually relatively broad and short-round or square (with prominent gonial angles).
Stature: medium to short; average about 166 cm.
Body build: thickset: short, thick neck; broad shoulders; deep chest; stubby extremities.Distribution. Concentrated in the central zone of Europe from France to the Urals; also southern Norway, Denmark, northern Italy, Balkans, and, sporadically in Near East; rare in northwest Africa.



The Stodgy Alpines.-

Brachycephaly is curiously uncommon in very archaic or palaeanthropic types in spite of the fact that the anthropoid apes, with the single exception of the mountain variety of gorilla, are round-headed. It is true that Keith reconstructs the Piltdown skull as brachycephalic, or nearly so, and it is quite possible that some of the Krapina Neanderthaloids were relatively broad-skulled. Most of the early examples of Homo sapiens found in Upper Pleistocene deposits are dolichocephalic, but brachycephals do appear at Solutré in France, at Alfalou in Algeria, and elsewhere. In postglacial times, during the Mesolithic period, coarse-boned round-heads are not uncommon in Europe. In genetic terms, brachycephaly is commonly explained as the result of repeated mutations, probably involving multiple factors controlling head shape, perhaps by determining the respective growth rates of head length and head breadth. Factors repressive of increase in head length and encouraging head breadth might bring about an apparent dominance of the broad, short heads. Foetalization, or the retention of infantile features in adult life, is another favourite explanation of brachycephaly, possible involving a shift in the endocrine balance toward a hypothyroid condition. Marett, for example, would invoke iodine deficiency as a predisposing or casual factor, operating through the ductless glands.


Weindenreich stresses the reduction of massiveness and the breakdown of supporting structures of the skull –frontal and occipital torus, sagital crest, et cetera- in the evolution of Homo sapiens from palaeoanthropic types of man. The principal theme of Coon’s findings in his very detailed study of European races is the survival to modern times of massive-skulled, Upper Palaeolithic types in refuge areas and the derivation of smaller and lighter cranial types from these rugged and ponderous precursors. Thus he lays great emphasis upon the brachycephals of Alfalou in Algeria, the Mesolithic skulls of Ofnet and of the so-called Borreby type- a tall, heavy-boned, brachycephalic type common in Denmark, Belgium, and the northern Scandinavian area in Mesolithic times.


There is no valid objection, in my opinion, to the derivation of modern, lighter-skulled brachycephals, such as Alpines, from ponderous Upper Palaeolithic precursors, but it is hard to see why modern examples of massive round-heads should be considered pure line Paleolithic survivors of different racial antecedents from the smaller and more delicate brachycephals by whom they are, in most cases, surrounded. There are in every stock individual constitutional and familial variation in size and robustness and general body build. These we shall discuss in a later section. Naturally, the more ponderous, muscular, and heavier-boned individuals of the Alpine race more closely resemble their rugged Paleolithic precursors. It may be desiderable to recognize a more massive, Borreby morphological subtype occurring within the brunet Alpine and East Baltic brachycephalic subraces, but to accord such a subtype separate suracial or racial classification would, it seems to me, postulate an isolation of very old racial strains and a perpetuation of pure lines that is improbable in any part of modern Europe. It is, however, perfectly possible that out-of- the way places have populations today that have been less subjected to intermixture and less affected by physiological and nutritional factors that make for type modernization that have the population of more central areas. So, it is conceivable that some, at least, of the Borreby massive round-heads carry more unmodified Palaeolithic genes that do ordinary rugged Alpines or East Baltics.


We used to attribute some of these very tall, raw-boned brachycephalic types to interbreeding between Nordics and Alpines or between Alpines and massive dolichocephals of the Upper Palaeolithic (Combe-Capelle – Gallery Hill or Brünn types). I have no doubt that many have originated in exactly this way and owe their increased size and ruggedness, in some measure, to heterosis or hybrid vigor. Actually, in a word of men who have been migratory and promiscuous for scores of thousands of years, the origin of new types through hybridisation and the duplication of ancient prototypes y fresh recombinations of the same strains that were present and undifferentiated in fossil men is a much more likely phenomenon that pure line, unmodified survival of ancient forms. Atavism occurs through chance recombination of odds and end of usually recessive genes that have been covered up in differentiated modern stocks.


It used to be the fashion to consider the round-headed Alpines as immigrants into Europe from some vast reservoir of their type, postulated to exist on the western slopes of the central Asiatic Plateau. If such a reservoir ever existed, it must have been completely emptied, because there is no considerable body of Alpine type Whites in that area today. Alpines in the Middle East are rarer by far that they are in Europe, although there is ample evidence that the have been involved in the interbreeding that has produced the secondary Armenoid subrace. I now seems probable that the tremendous increase of the Alpine type in Europe during historic times has been more a matter of selectional advantage and superior survival qualities of the type that of reinforcement through constant streams of immigration. Round-heads of obviously Alpine affinities are found in the Epipalaeolithic or Mesolithic burials in the caves at Ofnet, Wütemburg, South Germany, and in the shell heaps of Mugen on the Tagus river in Portugal. In the course of the Neolithic period, these globular-headed peoples with broad faces and short sturdy bodies established themselves in many places in Europe, as far west as Brittany, in central France, and particularly in the Alpine highlands and in the Balkan peninsula. They are also found at this early period in Denmark and in various areas of central and south-eastern Europe, but not usually as the predominant element in the population. We have reason to think that the spread of Bronze Age culture up the Danubian valley and then to northern and Western Europe was in considerable measure due to the industrial and commercial activity of this race, but unfortunately we are here faced by an almost insurmountable obstacle. Cremation began in Europe at some time during the Neolithic period and become more and more popular throughout the early metal ages until, at the end of the Bronze Age, it had grown to be the principal method of disposing of the remains of the dead. Nothing is more detestable to the physical anthropologist than this wretched habit of cremating the dead. It involves not only a prodigal wast of costly fuel excellent fertilizer, but also the complete destruction of physical historical data. On the other hand, the custom of embalming and mummification is most praiseworthy and highly to be recommended. When bodies are reduced to ashes or to a heap of calcined bones, it is impossible for the anthropologists to determine anything as to their original head form or other metric characters. Brachycephals and skulls of mixed head form seem to precede and to fringe the areas in which cremation was most prevalent in Europe in the Bronze and Early Iron Ages. And these are, in general, precisely the areas in which the brachycephalic Alpine subrace is most strongly established today. Therefore, it is justifiable inference that the spread of Alpines in Europe has been to a considerable extent conterminous with and masked by their habit, not invariable, but frequent, of burning their dead.


Throughout the Early Iron Ages and during the Roman period, cremation continued to prevail in so many areas of Europe as to obscure the racial constitution of many of the populations. This habit of cremation was not confined to Alpines; it was also taken up and practiced by Nordics and other peoples. Nevertheless, the skeletal material available for examination seems to indicate that dolichocephaly prevailed in present day Alpine strongholds, notably Czecho-Slovakia and Austria-Hungary, in Poland and Russia, until the ninth or tenth century A.D. The first historical Slavic burials, dating not earlier that 900 A.D., are predominantly those of long-headed persons, although today the Slavs are, generally speaking, brachycephalic in head form. The overwhelming numerical superiority of round-headed types in central and eastern Europe today and their increasing prevalence in western and north-western Europe are partially explicable in the light of the historic invasions from the east. The first of the historical invasions from Asia was that of the Huns, who appeared in the latter part of the fourth century A.D. and formed a powerful kingdom in central Europe under Attila. But their disruption came about as a result of their defeat at Châlons in 451 and Attila’s death in 453 A.D. These Huns could not have reinforced the Alpine race in Europe because it is now certain that they were dolichocephalic Mongoloid in racial type. In the sixth century A.D. another wave of Asiatic race in Europe, the Avars, brachy Mongoloids, swept into Europe, driving before them the Bulgars, the Slavs, and others. They reached the lower Danube and were given land there by Justinian. In 562 A.D., they fought the Franks on the Elbe, and latter moved into Italy, leaving the Avars the masters of the greater part of the Danube valley. Later, with the Slavs, the Avars reached Hungary and overran the Balkan Peninsula. They were finally crushed in 796 A.D. by Pippin I of Italy. In 635 A.D. the Bulgars, another Asiatic group from the South Russian steppes, revolted from the Avars and entered the Balkan Peninsula. The Hungars came from the Urals to the Volga in 550 A.D. and reached the Danube bout 886 A.D. With the Magyars and other Turkish tribes, they founded the kingdom of Hungary, which absorbed the remmants of the Hun and Avar empires of the fifth and sixth centuries. It seems necessary to suppose that these successive waves of Asiatics settling in Europe must have been responsible in large measure for the brachycephalization of the modern population in central and eastern Europe. It is hardly possible that the physical type of all of these Asiatics coud have been purely Mongoloid or we should have a more Mongoloid population today in the areas of their settlement. Of course, Mongoloid features are very common in these regions, but the Alpine type predominates, and Alpine physical features differ in many important respects from those of Mongoloids.


There is however, another possible explanation. In crosses of persons of dolichocephalic head form with brachycephals, the offspring are more likely to be mesocephalic or brachycephalic that long-headed. In other words, in a Mendelian sense, brachycephaly seems dominant over dolichocephaly. In a general way, this observation is well supported, but it is hardly probable that all Alpine racial features would similarly dominate over the distinctive features of other races. Many European subracial types are obviously the result of an intermixture of Alpines with Nordics or Mediterraneans, elements being blended in different proportions and with distinct results in several subtypes. But most of these mixed Alpine types are quite obviously mixed and present a mélange of Alpine and other racial features.


If brachycephaly involved multiple, cumulative genetic factors, with dominance of those making for short, broad heads, the amount of phenotypic or visible brachycephaly might be increased considerably in the population, but certainly not to the extent of working a complete transformation from long-headedness to round headedness in a few centuries in the absence of selectional forces operating to favor the latter. Dominance does not in itself increase the proportion in the population of a dominant gene.


It therefore seems clear that the gradual increase in brachycephaly noted from the Upper Palaeolithic times to 900 A.D. – a space of at least 20,000 years- might be accountable on the basis of dominance, selectional advantage, and the creation of round-headed types from long-heads in the interbreeding of White subraces. All of these factors put together seem insufficient to account for the tremendous swing to round-headedness in central and eastern Europe supposed to have taken place in the last ten centuries. To explain this, we must invoke additional reinforcements to the round-headed population in the way of migrants from Asia. Candela has made it clear enough that the historical invasions of Mongoloids must have brought to eastern and Central Europe most of the high proportion of B blood group found there today. However, not all the Asiatic invasions brought in immigrants of purely Mongoloid types. Coon thinks that the Magyars were only partially Mongoloid, though brachycephalic, and some of the Turks (the Tajiks, for example) are nearly purely Alpine.


Finally, there are two considerations that must be urged in connection with this problem of modern brachycephalization of Central and Eastern Europe:

(1) Survivals of dolichocephals and mesocephals in this area, as shown by Coon’s comprehensive survey of the existing materials, are far commoner that was previously thought to the de case;

(2) by no means all of the European brachycephals are Alpines; much of the increase in round-headedness may be due to infiltration of East Baltics, Dinarics, Armenoids, and partially Mongoloid elements. Thus the mystery seems to be dissolve itself.



http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/6987/alpinetypear4.th.jpg (http://img290.imageshack.us/my.php?image=alpinetypear4.jpg)

Pro-Alpine
Monday, October 9th, 2006, 08:54 PM
It is nice, I like.

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:11 AM
I disagree with basically only one thing. The skin color gradient. Alpines, it seems to me, have a yellowy or slightly rosey compexion, and olive is not a very common color. to me, most people want to be olive, which is stupid of course, but have a yellow color, rather than olive. I have seen olive, but it has only been on Meds, or possibly dinarids.

Id say more yellow than olive, but what do i know, im a rosy nordid!

SineNomine
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:16 AM
I disagree with basically only one thing. The skin color gradient. Alpines, it seems to me, have a yellowy or slightly rosey compexion, and olive is not a very common color. to me, most people want to be olive, which is stupid of course, but have a yellow color, rather than olive. I have seen olive, but it has only been on Meds, or possibly dinarids.

Id say more yellow than olive, but what do i know, im a rosy nordid!
I'll agree with this - very few French that I could call Alpinids that I've seen have an olive complexion, unless they are from Southern France. They tend to be a yellowy shade of white, as nätdeutsch put it. Peculiarly enough, despite being a dinaricised Pontid, my complexion tends to be more rosy than anything else - could be due to my mother though. Perhaps some Alpinids have minor Med or Nordid admixtures, hence varying colouration?

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:18 AM
I'll agree with this - very few French that I could call Alpinids that I've seen have an olive complexion, unless they are from Southern France. They tend to be a yellowy shade of white, as nätdeutsch put it. Peculiarly enough, despite being a dinaricised Pontid, my complexion tends to be more rosy than anything else - could be due to my mother though. Perhaps some Alpinids have minor Med or Nordid admixtures, hence varying colouration?

most of the "olives" are just normally complected people wishing they were Meds....
for what reason, i dont know.

SineNomine
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:22 AM
most of the "olives" are just normally complected people wishing they were Meds....
for what reason, i dont know.
Meds (and Nordids) tan well. Tan is in fashion. You draw the conclusion. :)

PS: It's gracile Meds that are darker (the common Med) - Atlanto-Meds apparently are lighter skinned.

SineNomine
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:57 AM
I think for the pure Nordids, the majority do tan well. It's meant to be a characteristic of theirs, as opposed to CM's who don't tan so well. Still I doubt most tan to the extent that gracile Meds do, but they don't burn like many CM's would. I agree though - pale skin is by far the more attractive shade.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 08:11 AM
I had forgotten just how unattractive Hooton made Alpines sound. If you look at the Swiss mesolithic and move forward to modern times, Alpine ancestry doesn't have to sound so thrallish.

Pro-Alpine
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 10:03 AM
Distribution. Concentrated in the central zone of Europe from France to the Urals; also southern Norway, Denmark, northern Italy, Balkans, and, sporadically in Near East; rare in northwest Africa.

Does this include Borrebys?

Prometheusfunke
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Considering myself being at least partly (but more likely mainly) alpinid, I have to say, that my skin tone IS in fact olive. It's not the kind of tone, that occurs in the south of europe, in fact I'm very pale in winter, but there's always that undertone. In summer I tan easily.

I admit, I'm far from a pro with racial classification, but that's what I see ;)

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 07:49 PM
. It's not the kind of tone, that occurs in the south of europe,

the kind of tone that appears most in the south of europe is olive.

people confuze olive and yellow.

only pictures will tell.

Prometheusfunke
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 09:36 PM
the kind of tone that appears most in the south of europe is olive.

people confuze olive and yellow.

only pictures will tell.

Being a kindergarten-teacher i can very well see the difference between yellow and olive :D

What i was trying to say is that I'm not tanned the whole year through like some Italians or spanish people are for instance, while having a very similar basic tone.

I'll try to find some pictures that show what I'm talking about.

Galaico
Tuesday, October 10th, 2006, 11:08 PM
I don't really see any difference between yellowish skin and olive one, but now olive skin happens to be cool :confused

If anyone could explain the main difference I'd be very grateful.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 11th, 2006, 01:10 AM
We have reason to think that the spread of Bronze Age culture up the Danubian valley and then to northern and Western Europe was in considerable measure due to the industrial and commercial activity of this race, but unfortunately we are here faced by an almost insurmountable obstacle.

That was the work of leptobrachymorphic (Dinaroid, Bell Beakers) and leptodolichomorphic (Nordoid and Mediterranoid) people though. Truly Alpinoid, not speaking of classic Alpinid variants being in minority at this time and in the respective dominant group and their bearing elements in particular.

For brachycephalisation compare:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=36559

From the 10th century on important factors being sedentary life style, Feudalism, social dependence of peasantry, negative selection of socially and spacial mobile individuals, of risk taking and fanatic individuals, destruction of clan and tribal structures (elimination of true group selection as a by-product), malnutrition-hunger, diseases-plagues and climatic worsening ("Little Ice Age"). The worsening of conditions being particularly visible if looking at the high infant mortality and body height reduction (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=60519) both in the form of modifaction and type changes. The correlation of brachycephalisation with infantilisation as a selective process was f.e. proven in various parts of Poland by the Polish anthropologist Andrzej Wiercinski et al.

If considering the facts mentioned in the article as well as those pointed out by my person the idea of massive immigrations of "Asians" into Europe is not necessary to explain the process of Alpinisation.

I absolutely agree on the comment of Borreby-robust Alpinoid-Alpinid spectrum being related and representing just different grades of robusticity and reduction-infantilisation, which can differ both between Alpinoid individuals in a region as well as between regions.

Pro-Alpine
Thursday, October 12th, 2006, 09:26 AM
Can somenone inform me about the Southern Norway and Denmark part, Agrippa?

Agrippa
Thursday, October 12th, 2006, 10:33 AM
Can somenone inform me about the Southern Norway and Denmark part, Agrippa?

He meant the Borreby/Nordalpinoid and Strandid variants in Southern Norway and mainly Borreby as well as certain Osteuropid strains in Denmark. Borreby-variants being very old in Denmark in particular.

cosmocreator
Saturday, October 28th, 2006, 08:22 PM
I had an idea that Alpinids are more closely related to Atlantids than reduced Borrebys.

Agrippa
Saturday, October 28th, 2006, 08:29 PM
I had an idea that Alpinids are more closely related to Atlantids than reduced Borrebys.

Paths of Alpinisation:

North: Northern Cromagnid -> Borreby -> light Alpinid
South-West: Southern Cromagnid -> Berid -> darker (West-) Alpinid

cosmocreator
Saturday, October 28th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Paths of Alpinisation:

North: Northern Cromagnid -> Borreby -> light Alpinid
South-West: Southern Cromagnid -> Berid -> darker (West-) Alpinid

What is that based on? Genetics?

What is the path of Atlantids?

Agrippa
Saturday, October 28th, 2006, 10:25 PM
What is that based on? Genetics?

Archaeology and anatomic comparisons primarily.

To give an impression of possible relations:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=57049

cosmocreator
Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 09:29 PM
Archaeology and anatomic comparisons primarily.

That's based on some pretty shakey ground then.

What about the question of where Atlantids are from?

Agrippa
Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 09:36 PM
That's based on some pretty shakey ground then.

Yes indeed, but there are no early Alpinoid findings and those we find are at the beginning usually between Cromagnoid-Alpinoid and Borreby-like, therefore we can conclude that this was a trend going on since the Mesolithic in some, especially rather unfavourable, areas.


What about the question of where Atlantids are from?

They are simply of the same origin as Nordid and Mediterranid, but having by mixture or because of simply not differentiating clearly in one direction an intermediate status. So if wanting to look Atlantids, one has to look at both Nordids and Mediterranids - and their fluent border in particular.

cosmocreator
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 03:57 AM
Watch this animation. It is based on genetics. Below is my interpretation.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

90,000 to 85,000
A group leaves Africa. All non-africans are descended from these people.

85,000 to 75,000
These people may have looked like modern Australoid.

65,000 to 52,000
Early Upper Paleolithic man enters Europe.

52,000 to 45,000
UP man spreads further west into Western Europe. All Atlantids, Mediterraneans and Alpines are drived from this line.

45,000 to 40,000
A group which starts around modern day Iran moves north into the Asians Steppes.
Nordics are drived from this group.

40,000 to 25,000
This Nordic group breaks up with part heading towards the Americas and others heading towards Europe. The one that headed West mixes with the UP lineage that earlier entered Europe.

25,000 to 22,000
A group made up of the Eastern UP type and newer Nordic type merge to form Native Americans.

22,000 to 19,000
The origin of the Indo-European language begins to form in what is modern day Ukraine just north of the Black Sea.

10,000 to 8,000
The UP people from which Atlantids, Mediterraneans, and Alpines are derived move north into the UK and Scandinavia.

8,000 to present
The IE people from the Ukraine spread and mix with the group above in Europe and also East into Iran and India..

Agrippa
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 09:56 PM
Watch this animation. It is based on genetics. Below is my interpretation.
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

90,000 to 85,000
A group leaves Africa. All non-africans are descended from these people.

True, but when exactly can be still questioned, even though the numbers could make sense.


85,000 to 75,000
These people may have looked like modern Australoid.

Yes.


65,000 to 52,000
Early Upper Paleolithic man enters Europe.

52,000 to 45,000
UP man spreads further west into Western Europe. All Atlantids, Mediterraneans and Alpines are drived from this line.

There is NO direct line from that time one which survived in purity, yet one cannot derive modern racial types that way me thinks.


45,000 to 40,000
A group which starts around modern day Iran moves north into the Asians Steppes.
Nordics are drived from this group.

Possible. But again, to derive Nordids from that is very problematic.


40,000 to 25,000
This Nordic group breaks up with part heading towards the Americas and others heading towards Europe. The one that headed West mixes with the UP lineage that earlier entered Europe.

Dito.


25,000 to 22,000
A group made up of the Eastern UP type and newer Nordic type merge to form Native Americans.

Undifferentiated Cromagnoids - nothing Nordoid.


22,000 to 19,000
The origin of the Indo-European language begins to form in what is modern day Ukraine just north of the Black Sea.

Too early and if really there? Impossible to tell.

SubGnostic
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 10:44 PM
The Out-of-Africa view now wins the contest because the new genetic trees lead straight back to Africa within the past 100,000 years. No traces of Adam-and-Eve gene lines from older human species remain on our genetic tree, except of course at the root, from which we can measure our genetic distance from Neanderthals. Neanderthals have now been genetically typed using ancient mitochondrial DNA, and it seems that they are our cousins rather than our ancestors. We share with them another common ancestor, Homo helmei.

Current Out-of-Africa proponents have usually hedged their bets, claiming that Australians, Asians, and Europeans came as separate migrations of Homo sapiens from Africa. Not so: the male and female genetic trees show only one line each coming out of Africa. There was only one main exodus of modern humans from Africa - each gender line had only one common genetic ancestor that respectively fathered and mothered the whole non-African world.

It's amusing that the genetics of the "out-of-Africa"-theory and populations as presented here is so rock solid and on the other hand politically correct geneticists underline the obscurity of racial divisions on genetic level. I'll write a plea to the Finnish government to grant all of my five cats citizenship, for they are genetically closer to me than Finns on average, if genetic relations are viewed in a certain way.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 11:12 PM
25,000 to 22,000
A group made up of the Eastern UP type and newer Nordic type merge to form Native Americans.




This would explain Kennewick Man.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 11:16 PM
There is NO direct line from that time one which survived in purity, yet one cannot derive modern racial types that way me thinks.

Purity? I will post on this shortly in a new thread.


Undifferentiated Cromagnoids - nothing Nordoid.

All UPs are the same? Whether they been found in Western Europe or Asia? What is Nordoid? Seems like a modern term based on outdated science.

Agrippa
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 01:07 AM
All UPs are the same? Whether they been found in Western Europe or Asia? What is Nordoid? Seems like a modern term based on outdated science.

No. But in a time before major race differentation I think that Northern Eurasia was populated by some more archaic Cromagnoids, those marching West became the European, those East the Mongoloid flank of this archaic group.
Its rather about a common source group than them being the same, what they are obviously not.

Nord - oid = http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5454

cosmocreator
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 01:34 AM
No. But in a time before major race differentation I think that Northern Eurasia was populated by some more archaic Cromagnoids, those marching West became the European, those East the Mongoloid flank of this archaic group.
Its rather about a common source group than them being the same, what they are obviously not.
(http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5454)

If you watch that Bradshaw animation, you will see that Mongoloid originated in Eastern China and around Burma, not Central Asia.

Also, there is a western UP (Cro Magnon) and an eastern UP (yet to be found).

Derivatives of western UP are found in Western Europe. Derivatives of eastern UP are found in Eastern Europe, Iran and Afghanistan.

Agrippa
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 02:07 AM
If you watch that Bradshaw animation, you will see that Mongoloid originated in Eastern China and around Burma, not Central Asia.

Well, thats true for the main branches of the Sinoid, but not as much for the Tungo-Sibirid spectrum (!). The distinction between these two branches of Mongoloids is actually quite clear both by traits and genetically.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 03:45 AM
Well, thats true for the main branches of the Sinoid, but not as much for the Tungo-Sibirid spectrum (!). The distinction between these two branches of Mongoloids is actually quite clear both by traits and genetically.

I assume those people moved into that area less than 8,000 years ago because they're not part of that animation. Maybe made up of a mix between the Eastern UP and Mongoloid. Not particular of interest to me as a person.

Agrippa
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 04:04 AM
I assume those people moved into that area less than 8,000 years ago because they're not part of that animation. Maybe made up of a mix between the Eastern UP and Mongoloid. Not particular of interest to me as a person.

First of all this animation is just that - an animation. It doesnt correctly show all movements of human groups AND the Central Asian movement was shown: Three waves over the Bering street with one being the respective Tungo-Sibirid strain mainly - with the limitation being made by me for all those correlations between a racial type and genetic lineages, this was one of the clearest cases, wonder you didnt recognised that.

There were three movements even in the animation going up to North East Asia: One related to the Central Asian movement (archaic Cromagnoid forms, base of later Tungo-Sibirids), a more Southern through China (related to Sinoid populations?) and another along the coast (Ainuid-Palaemongolid related?). This is all wild speculation partly beside the Tungo-Sibirid base (compare with y- and mtDNA!), but its still much more reasonable than "Nordics" going to America which never happened before the Vikings at least it seems.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 04:07 AM
but its still much more reasonable than "Nordics" going to America which never happened before the Vikings at least it seems.


What is your opinion on Kennewick Man?

Agrippa
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 04:16 AM
What is your opinion on Kennewick Man?

Have no qualified opinion on the Kennewick Man, but even if he would be Europoid or at least Europiform, to call him Nordoid wouldnt be the first thing which comes to my mind.

SubGnostic
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 10:46 AM
The reconstructed face of the Kennewick man:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Kennewickmanstanford.jpg

Why did they have to shade the bust...
Judged from this picture, hardly a nordoid.


...Later research suggests he most closely resembles South-East Asian, Polynesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian) or Ainu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people) peoples. If confirmed, this would lend support to the theory that an important migration route lay along the North Pacific shoreline from Asia to America during a time when inland routes were blocked by ice. DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) analysis, which some Native American groups oppose, could help resolve this mystery, should there be enough remaining intact to extract from the bones...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

Ten years from the discovery and there's still not much adequate, published research data.

You might find something here:
www.kennewick-man.com

Some people have already jumped to hasty conclusions:

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/ips_rich_content/738-asatru.jpg


The leader of a group that claimed Kennewick Man as an ancient European ancestor returned to Kennewick on Thursday for the first time since performing rituals over the skeleton nine years ago.

SineNomine
Wednesday, November 1st, 2006, 03:30 PM
The reconstructed face of the Kennewick man:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Kennewickmanstanford.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1040174293544_2002/12/18/picard,0.jpg

Funny resemblance to Captain Picard. :)

Bioblitzkrieg
Saturday, November 11th, 2006, 07:23 PM
some Ainu people look like far northeast robust forms of Europids, like a long faced Lapp with ladogan influence present, Perhaps if this was a Paleolithic aged human from the areas the genetic results alluded to, he is something like a longer headed UP/Proto-Ainu related form, maybe with an unknown degree of Paleomongolid influence also.

Germaniathane
Friday, February 10th, 2017, 02:48 PM
Western European Alpine/Classic Alpine type traits
- brachycephalic
- steep+round forehead
- wide, round-faced with delicate features
- short, small, often concave nose with snub noses common
- short to sort of medium body build
- endomorph
- pale to light brown skin
- straight to curly brown hair
- body hair is not that strong
Predominant in the western and central Alpine regions of France and in Luxembourg, frequent in southern Germany, in parts of Belgium and northern Spain. In most Western Europe, the Alpinid has been mixed with the Nordid types or other types Atlantid, Dinarid, Mediterranid.

Some estimates:
Austria = 20%
Belgium = 5%
France = 30%
Germany = 15%
Luxembourg = 80%
Switzerland = 15%

Catterick
Friday, February 10th, 2017, 09:33 PM
Agrippa points out to us that Alpinids are recent. Coon was correct in lumping Alpines as paedomorphic versions of UP crania. Cranial index is not especially reliable and bracycranialism appears independantly maybe even within Caucasians. Ignore it and Alpines lean back towards the Cromagnid and Mechtoid.

Uwe Jens Lornsen
Tuesday, June 5th, 2018, 05:15 PM
A map about Alpine race I have found @ schrodinger-excidium deviantart.com :
https://schrodinger-excidium.deviantart.com/art/Alpine-race-Map-Anthropology-Map-509288722
https://orig00.deviantart.net/255c/f/2015/024/7/f/alpine_race_map___anthropology_map_by_sc hrodinger_excidium-d8f7toy.png