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Krampus
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 03:32 AM
One of the few things great about living in the United States is the guns you can own :D
I've held a C&R license for about two years now and I've amassed quite a nice collection:

2 Yugoslavian SKS(neat rifle very well made with a grenade launcher attachment)
1 Albanian SKS(roughly made, but interesting piece)
1 Czech VZ24t Mauser(Russian captured)
1 Czech made Kar98k Mauser
1 Yugoslavian M48 Mauser
2 Russian M44 7.62x54mm carbine

A C&R license is really a great way to build up your gun collection. I do it more for historical purposes than anything...it's neat to own a piece of history that you can actually shoot. There's a few rules to having a C&R one is you have to keep a log of your collection and you can be subject to audit by an ATF Agent, but you have the option of taking your collection with you for review at an ATF office or having them come to your home to view your log book and collection. The license costs $35 and it's not a bad deal at all in my opinion.

Here's a link to the ATF Q&A for the Curio and Relic http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm

Ewergrin
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 11:20 PM
One of the few things great about living in the United States is the guns you can own :D
I've held a C&R license for about two years now and I've amassed quite a nice collection:

2 Yugoslavian SKS(neat rifle very well made with a grenade launcher attachment)
1 Albanian SKS(roughly made, but interesting piece)
1 Czech VZ24t Mauser(Russian captured)
1 Czech made Kar98k Mauser
1 Yugoslavian M48 Mauser
2 Russian M44 7.62x54mm carbine

A C&R license is really a great way to build up your gun collection. I do it more for historical purposes than anything...it's neat to own a piece of history that you can actually shoot. There's a few rules to having a C&R one is you have to keep a log of your collection and you can be subject to audit by an ATF Agent, but you have the option of taking your collection with you for review at an ATF office or having them come to your home to view your log book and collection. The license costs $35 and it's not a bad deal at all in my opinion.

Here's a link to the ATF Q&A for the Curio and Relic http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm

The Curio and Relic license is a great thing to have. There are a few shops that specialize in Curio and Relic items and people woldnt believe the great weapons they can get for very cheap!

What length barrel is your Czech mauser? Mine is 24 or 26 inches. Very long, and one of my favorite old rifles.

Krampus
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:17 AM
Yes that's what attracted me to having a C&R was the price, plus the fact few gunshops in my area will bother to carry such weapons. 23 1/2-24" thereabouts for my VZ24t, it's similar to the Kar98k except it has a straight bolt handle and the stock is a bit different. The Czechs also made some Mausers for the Persians which were more like the Mauser 98's used in WW1 very long barrels and Farsi writting on them apparently you can still get some in very good condition. http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles.html#m9829 I hope to add one of those to my round up for diversity.

Gladstone
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:25 AM
I've seen Thompson machine guns from WWII as well as others from that era can be purchased for a few hundred dollars, with the receiver removed. I was very surprised a few years back to see German MP-44's for less than $500; I'd preseumed they were all museum pieces or the bulk had been destroyed. Presumably the curio and relic license does still not allow for the gun to fire, but not full auto? Is the license a relatively new thing..I'd never heard of it?

Ewergrin
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:46 AM
I've seen Thompson machine guns from WWII as well as others from that era can be purchased for a few hundred dollars, with the receiver removed. I was very surprised a few years back to see German MP-44's for less than $500; I'd preseumed they were all museum pieces or the bulk had been destroyed. Presumably the curio and relic license does still not allow for the gun to fire, but not full auto? Is the license a relatively new thing..I'd never heard of it?


I can PROMISE you that the ones you saw were replicas, or non-firing.

Gladstone
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 01:22 AM
I can PROMISE you that the ones you saw were replicas, or non-firing.

They seemed to be reputable and claimed the guns were real, origonal pieces... though yes, non-firing (they would always make a point about the receiver being removed, and thus, they were legal). Does the C&R license allow for full auto machine guns (seems some years back there was a license that did allow for full auto machine guns, that may have been discontinued)? This was back in the 90's, probably the prices are higher now.

Krampus
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Gladstone-

Does the C&R license allow for full auto machine guns (seems some years back there was a license that did allow for full auto machine guns, that may have been discontinued)? This was back in the 90's, probably the prices are higher now.

Yes there are a few submachine guns which you can get with a C&R, but you have to be in the right state. I know the original Thompson, Sten, MP40 and Danish Madsen are included in this as well as a few others. Generally prices are up into 4k or more for such weapons. I believe you have to purchase a $200 tax stamp as well for full auto. I donít know a whole lot about the laws for full auto as I live in a state where itís completely prohibited(Illinois) so I havenít looked into all the legalities.

Curio and Relic licenses have been around for awhile since the late 60ís after Kennedy was shot. I believe it was the Gun Control Act of 1968. Previously anyone could order any kind of firearm and have it shipped to their house, the C&R developed as a way around that. With the C&R license you can purchase for dealer prices anything 50 years or older or anything approved by the ATF as a C&R. For example the Albanian SKSís were made in the 60ís-70ís, but they were put on the list as a C&R by the ATF.

I've only seen replicas of MP44's it's a real neat weapon I'd like to see someone do a remake of it in semiauto. I did get to shoot the MP40 submachine gun in Vegas though at a rental range. I think the East Germans were using the MP44's for a few years as I've seen the early pictures of their border guards with them hung over their shoulder before they got Ak's.

Gladstone
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 02:04 AM
I've seen the MP-44's lately for $800.00 or so; it may be these prices are for something that are not spectacular condition..simply good. Seems the fact that the gun fires makes for an additional premium as to price as in the examples you mentioned (am not an expert on guns ;)) This one antique miltaria magazine based in the UK was even selling MG-42's...once more no receivers. They did claim authenticity. It surprised me quite a bit (back in the mid 90's) these could be had. Someone was even telling me that supposedly in the UK you could purchase running Kubelwagens (the Jerry WW2 jeep) for $10,000 (owned by everyday Brits) and I have seen anecdotal evidence that is the case. It would make sense as after the war the UK took a lot of German property to Britian, jeeps as well.

Firing a full auto 45 Thompsan would be a blast. No doubt! :D ;)

Ewergrin
Saturday, January 31st, 2004, 05:54 PM
I have NEVER heard that a C&R License ever, ever encompassed a fully automatic weapon, ever. The simple fact that it is a fully automatic weapon makes it a Class II or III weapon, no matter how old it is. Also, it takes a hell of a lot more to get a Class II or III weapon in the US than just paying the extra $200 stamp tax. It may take at least a year or so of jumping through hoops and red tape before you can even become available to own a Class II or III license, and even then, those licenses are for manufacturing, not just personal ownership.

Krampus
Saturday, January 31st, 2004, 09:08 PM
kriegsmaschine-

I have NEVER heard that a C&R License ever, ever encompassed a fully automatic weapon, ever. The simple fact that it is a fully automatic weapon makes it a Class II or III weapon, no matter how old it is. Also, it takes a hell of a lot more to get a Class II or III weapon in the US than just paying the extra $200 stamp tax. It may take at least a year or so of jumping through hoops and red tape before you can even become available to own a Class II or III license, and even then, those licenses are for manufacturing, not just personal ownership.

I think you're misinformed, but there's a lot of misinformation put out there on full auto/C&R mainly spread by FFL holding gun dealers. Dealers frequently discourage individuals from getting the C&R because it puts them out of business. The red tape you're referring to is all going to be State law in this regard and will vary from state to state with some states having laws banning full auto altogether.

Here's a list of C&R approved firearms which includes such novelties as Sten submachine guns, MP40's, Danish Madsen's and even more recently made M76 S&W Submachine Guns which actually kind of surprised me.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/sec4.htm

The Bureau has determined that the following National Firearms Act weapons are curios or relics as defined in 27 CFR 178.11 because of their dates of manufacture. These National Firearms Act weapons, classified as curios or relics, are still subject to all the controls under the National Firearms Act. However, licensed collectors may acquire, hold, or dispose of them as curios or relics subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44 and 27 CFR Part 178. They are still "firearms" as defined in the National Firearms Act and 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.



Any of the submachine guns listed are going to be very hard to come by as their not up for sale very often. Their also very expensive starting usually like 6k.

Here's a few dealers which carry C&R submachine guns.

Taken from-
http://www.funsupply.com/Firearms/fullauto.html

Some States allow private ownership of Class 3 Curios and Relics only. These are Guns that are on the Federal Curios and Relics list due to their historical significance. If you live in one of these States, you could perhaps, own an original Thompson Submachine Gun, but not a copy of the gun made later. Below is a link to obtain more information on Curios and Relics. You can get a Curio and Relics License that will let you bypass a Class 3 dealer for buying them from out of your State. (This does NOT override any applicable State laws.) Note: (emphasis mine)

Some states totally ban the possession of Machine Guns for individuals and corporations, but do allow possession for Dealers and/or manufacturers. If you wanted one bad enough, you could become a Class 3 Dealer or a Manufacturer. You would however, actually have to deal or manufacture Class 3 items or your license would be pulled.

Here's another example C&R approved Machine Guns do come up for sale
a fully function C&R approved Japanese machine gun.
http://www.lakesideguns.com/class-3-inventory.html
Edit: stupid frown face