PDA

View Full Version : Christmas is Racism?



Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 12:39 AM
By Petri Salmén

Every Finn has much the same image of Christmas and how it is spent: snow, the tree, the groaning dinner-table, peace & goodwill, and of course Santa Claus!

There is a desire to preserve the illusion, even if snow is no longer a given in Southern Finland.

Christmas is a sense of a familiar and safe continuum; even if the year to date has been a heavy one, Christmas is like coming home again.

Now holes have been made in the veils of illusion through a fanatical sense of political correctness, in other words the thinking that celebrating Christmas offends the sensibilities of some minorities living in Finland.

I find it sad that already in the kindergartens and in the lower forms of elementary schools people have to consider new ways of celebrating the Yuletide season, in order not to offend the parents of immigrant children.

I naturally understand the importance of taking account of the feelings of others and respecting minorities.

But I do not understand that we go so far in arrangements by which the ways of celebrating Christmas that have already been dinned into children at home are invalidated in the name of political correctness. Are five million Finns somehow celebrating Christmas "in the wrong way"?

Although I am an atheist, I have no wish to limit the Christian message of the season in any shape or form. The marking of the birthday of Christ is as well suited as a theme for Christmas as the fact that I choose to celebrate the darkest time of the year by lights and candles. I even attend a school concert when and if it is held in a church.

Let us consider the matter from the opposite perspective. Who is the brave soul who would suggest to the Muslims that the celebration of the fasting month of Ramadan should be brought to an end?

And is there someone out there who would deny the Jewish community the right to burn candles during Hanukkah on the grounds that it constitutes a fire-risk?

We haven't come to that, surely?


At the risk of my being labelled as hopelessly un-PC, I wish you all a Merry and Peaceful Christmas, and understanding and patience one towards another!

Helsingin Sanomat / First published in print 10.12.2005

Source (http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/Christmas+is+racism%0D%0A/1101981943755)

Loki
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 12:43 AM
People are so stupid... :speechles

Blutwölfin
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 12:55 AM
Just another proof of the unimportance of our own culture compared with the oh-so-poor immigrants. And still way too few people stand up. They make our teachers learn Turkish, they make us remove calendars out of offices because they show pigs, now they want to take away the Yuletide. Probably just a matter of time until all our women will wear headscarfs and our men lay down on the earth to pray towards Mekka several times a day for not hurting the feelings of the people that entered our countries not on our will....

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 12:56 AM
People are so stupid... :speechlesAye :frown:

But it's good that this issue is brought in public. This PC crap starts to be reality in Finland also.

Here's a link to a discussion PP helped me to find about a school in Eastern Helsinki where banning Christmas is already reality. The discussion is in Finnish only.

http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/keskustelu/thread.jspa?threadID=12970&tstart=10

brian
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 01:10 AM
I think I posted up a link to this site before in some earlier post, but I am reminded of another article which describes an utterly idiotic battle between the school board and students in a town in New Jersey over singing Christmas tunes with a religious character. Here is the link: http://www.weirdrepublic.com/episode61.htm. It is funny, in this article, who the ones against the Christmas tunes turn out to be.

anonymaus
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 01:57 AM
Christianity is an imperial religion which started in the semitic tribes of the middle east, spread throughout europe, south america and eventually throughout africa as well as far-off places like oceania.

It is the all-inclusive religion of worldwide 'brotherhood'.

Christianity aims only to grow in influence and power; in order to achieve its goal of 'saving' the world through Christ, it will convert any and all peoples by whatever means necessary.

Hegemonistic? Surely. Supercilious? Definitely. Imperialistic? Absolutely. Racist? Hardly. Racism is quite contrary to Christianity. Christianity and its goals are diametrically opposed to ethno-nationalism and its goals; there is little doubt that Christendom cannot hope to survive a resurgence of healthy ethno-nationalism, and thus will fight against all efforts such as our own.

How can one accept Christ as his Lord and saviour, but reject his 'brother'?

The PC/Multi-Cult nutjobs are shadowboxing, this time. Christ is probably their greatest ally.

Death and the Sun
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 10:00 AM
It's amazing that such an outspoken article could have emerged from Aatos Erkko's Minitrue department. :scratch:

Kalevi
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 10:43 AM
anonymaus: That's largely true, yes. But people without traditions are rootless, so Christian traditions are better than no traditions at all.

And I think our society as a whole, Muslims and us non-believers included, can tolerate that much of Christianity. ;)

Blutwölfin
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Actually most Christmas customs derive from old Heathen customs, Jul, and are just adapted by the Christian faith. So even if you don't notice it on first sight, but by forbidding Christmas and its customs you're not just forbidding another superimposing religion, but you're also forbidding a tradition more than thousand years old.

Sigrid
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Actually most Christmas customs derive from old Heathen customs, Jul, and are just adapted by the Christian faith. So even if you don't notice it on first sight, but by forbidding Christmas and its customs you're not just forbidding another superimposing religion, but you're also forbidding a tradition more than thousand years old.

You have said what needs to be said, besides the perfectly rational opinion by Anonymaus. The season of "Christ Mass" is totally overlaid on the feast of Yule, the Northern pagan festival of the reborn sun. The Mother Night, the holiest of nights since Neolothic times. Christ did not exist. This is steadily being understood by more and more serious scholars. If he had been a man born at this time then the Gospels have the time wrong because there would have been no shepherds out watching flocks in the middle of winter. For that to happen Jesus would have had to have been born sometime in the opposing season.

It irks the daylights out of secular and pagan alike to have the Hebrew hero's sado-masochistic demise shoved down their throats every December. To see our traditional feast days being usurped by Christianity and to constantly be sidelined is becoming more than we are willing to tolerate. Calling them "our culture" is worse. Very soon the Heathen, and hopefully the Celts (I won't hold my breath on them but I live in hope) are going to get up and demand to be acknowledged as the originators of the whole shebang in the Northern expression of midwinter. It's ours. We demand that children be taught the truth about the origins of "Christmas". By all means adhere to a faith that is semitic and universalist but please remember us, our ancestors and our culture of sun veneration that has been with us from Indo-European times and that was rudely and imperiously interrupted and usurped by the Jewish godman. He has absolutely no right to be the centre of this season. Many fundi Christians realise this and now don't celebrate, fearful that they are indulging in pagan rites. They are, so I agree with them there. Jesus isn't Balder or Frey. The light of Christianity is not the sun. Mary is not Freya.

Tradition has been transformed. Argh. That habit certain people have of changing what isn't theirs and destroying anything that stood before it. The day is coming when we shall demand the reinstatement of the Irminsul in the German forest where it was viciously brought down by Charlemagne's thugs. The reinstitution of the sacred woods and the sacred oak. The reinstitution of our festival as the only one that can claim the right to Mothers Night.

We don't worship the fictitious Jewish king. We venerate the return of the sun. When Christians place bright balls on the tree they have no idea that they are actually placing what used to be globes of the returning light onto the tree of life. Odin is Santa who brings gifts. Heimdall brings gifts. We don't have three wise middle eastern kings. We have no star of Bethlehem. We have only the sun. And the folk. We see the return of the sun as the rebirth of our people and crops and animals in a new year. Long ago a child was passed through the legs of an adult woman on this night in honour of the rebirth of the light, the sun.

People will disagree and be annoyed with us, it's true. They acknowledge but they can't understand why we ourselves are so offended. Why we rise but we won't shine on this one. It is because we demand recognition. Yule is ours. Yule is the festival of the reborn sun.

http://www.tryskelion.com/yule7.htm

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Indeed the Christ has propably not born in december, but the church replaced the old pagan celebration by the birth of the Christ to make people adapt the new meaning.

I am not much into christmas celebrations, for me it means mostly that after Christmas the days start become longer and longer. This time of the year is especially hard for me because the sun only visits shortly on the sky before it disappears, and right now it's especially dark because there is not much snow yet. In fact December is the most depressing month there is besides November.

Anyway whatever the meaning of the christmas (or joulu as we call it) is, it's quite important festival for us living here in the north, was it the birth of the Christ or celebrating the darkest time of the year and welcoming the sun. Multicultists should not try to take it away from us.

palesye
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I view Christianity as important part of our heritage, like it or not. I'm not Christian myself.

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:14 PM
I view Christianity as important part of our heritage, like it or not. I'm not Christian myself.Christianity has had and still has a huge influence on our culture, moral codes and way of living. But our heritage? I'm not sure about that...

Arcturus
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Just as long as I get to have a tree, eat a huge ham (plus other seasonal delicacies) and get to spend time with my family in festive surroundings I'm happy.

And that is all that the holiday means to me personally ;)

Sigrid
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:42 PM
We did not learn our moral codes from the Jews. There is absolutely nothing we need from these people. We already had moral codes. We already had laws. Hardly anyone knows this and it's time it was taught to them in schools. Otherwise the next thing that will happen is we will all be saying in two hundred years' time "Islam is part of our heritage, like it or not ..." But you won't be allowed to add "and I'm not Muslim". If you do your head will roll. Once we were burned for similar misdemeanors.

The "heritage" of this Jewish heresy is not ours and should not be viewed as anything other than an imposition on our spiritual and scientific and creative evolution.

Jesus the rocket scientist and law bringer and all he apparently taught us. Total rubbish. All we learned from this was that he didn't bring peace but a sword. And the directions that we make war with our parents, governments and kin in his name. I reject this cult utterly and I'll reject any other middle eastern interlopers as well. I can't help it. That is the way I am.

I don't think it should be banned. But I don't think it should have any status above our folk heritage and our ability to make our own laws and captain our ship of fate. The average person will support it. Im just not the average person.

palesye
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 03:55 PM
We did not learn our moral codes from the Jews. There is absolutely nothing we need from these people. We already had moral codes. We already had laws. Hardly anyone knows this and it's time it was taught to them in schools. Otherwise the next thing that will happen is we will all be saying in two hundred years' time "Islam is part of our heritage, like it or not ..." But you won't be allowed to add "and I'm not Muslim". If you do your head will roll. Once we were burned for similar misdemeanors.


If I were ancient heathen, I surely would fight against Christian invaders. But nowadays it is silly, in my opinion. For 1000 years Christianity became native European religion.

Today fighting with Christianity is equal to fighting with windmills.

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 04:04 PM
We did not learn our moral codes from the Jews. There is absolutely nothing we need from these people. We already had moral codes. We already had laws. Hardly anyone knows this and it's time it was taught to them in schools. Otherwise the next thing that will happen is we will all be saying in two hundred years' time "Islam is part of our heritage, like it or not ..." But you won't be allowed to add "and I'm not Muslim". If you do your head will roll. Once we were burned for similar misdemeanors.Wanted we or not, we cannot wipe nearly a millennium away. That is the time Christianity has been around here in North, first it was the Catholic church, then Lutheran. And it is Lutheran moral codes we have in our societies here.

But propably we should not discuss about religion here too much. Religion and related issues are very sensitive whatever our beliefs are. And there are no right beliefs, everyones personal belief is the right one to person him/herself.

Loki
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 04:10 PM
But propably we should not discuss about religion here too much. Religion and related issues are very sensitive whatever our beliefs are. And there are no right beliefs, everyones personal belief is the right one to person him/herself.

It is fine to discuss religion and even produce strong criticism, IMO. :)

Sigrid
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Yes, that is what Loki himself would say and he would be right. Loki tests us. We don't have to do anything but strengthen ourselves by him. Mischievous trickster that he is. Idiots that we are to take his word for things without consulting with the head of Mimir as in Odin's example. :D

Barry_Lyndon
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:25 PM
The "heritage" of this Jewish heresy is not ours and should not be viewed as anything other than an imposition on our spiritual and scientific and creative evolution.

Jesus the rocket scientist and law bringer and all he apparently taught us. Total rubbish. All we learned from this was that he didn't bring peace but a sword. And the directions that we make war with our parents, governments and kin in his name. I reject this cult utterly and I'll reject any other middle eastern interlopers as well. I can't help it. That is the way I am.


Well stated! I do view myself to be culturally Christian, but I am not religious. It is an un-European religion, even though I still celebrate tradition. Why should we hold the basis of our culture on a Jew? Has Christianity done anything to unite European or Nordic peoples, or just separated them further?

"Brotherhood of man is not a poet's dream, but a humiliating reality"
-Oscar Wilde

newenstad
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Just as long as I get to have a tree, eat a huge ham (plus other seasonal delicacies) and get to spend time with my family in festive surroundings I'm happy.

And that is all that the holiday means to me personally ;)

Here too, but maybe without the family part... ;)

I´m not religious but IMO the different religions are kind of moral concepts and I never would say that Christmas has anything to do with racism. Thats to weird...

Name it Christmas or Jul, the importance of holidays for everybodies peace of mind is what I like...

Sigrid
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Brotherhood in its truest manifestation is blood brotherhood. (She uttered darkly and went purple with interesting luminescent green bits ...) :party000:

Barry_Lyndon
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:50 PM
I agree with you, and that's how we preserve our culture. I just wish more people would, then we could save what's left of a degenerating civilization.

Arcturus
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Has Christianity done anything to unite European or Nordic peoples, or just separated them further?

Well...


http://home.att.net/~NordicLinks/flags.jpg

Sigrid
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 06:11 PM
You obviously haven't considered the skull cults welded to Catholicism of the Mexican Aztecs or some of the weird Afro-ju-ju examples of the faith that unites ... It unites and then it goes on uniting until it eats its own young. Blood is the meeting ground for all true brothers of any nation. Otherwise mere trade unites or cash or foreign cults and degeneration happens when this breaks down. But blood bonds can not break down. Blood bonds are forever ...

Friendship is not the same. You can be good friends with anyone, but brothers are a sacred kinship, born of blood.

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 07:55 PM
It is fine to discuss religion and even produce strong criticism, IMO. :)I agree, but this is tNP Suomi Sauna section... I don't know how other Finnish SMods feel about this, but IMO the discussion about religion could take place in some other subforum :cool:

Arcturus
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 07:57 PM
I agree, but this is tNP Suomi Sauna section... I don't know how other Finnish SMods feel about this, but IMO the discussion about religion could take place in some other subforum :cool:
I have no objection to it being moved to the Philosophy & Belief Systems subforum.

Lissu
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 08:00 PM
I have no objection to it being moved to the Philosophy & Belief Systems subforum.If you want to sp[l]it the thread, go ahead ;)

Loki
Sunday, December 18th, 2005, 08:04 PM
If you want to sp[l]it the thread, go ahead ;)

No, this thread shouldn't be split. I moved it now to the Philosophy section, seeing as tNP Suomi mods don't like to discuss religion.

Sigrid
Monday, December 19th, 2005, 04:12 AM
I only wrote because they started the discussion and as soon as you say "Christmas" you automatically imply religion. And, today, when a white person expresses their religion, someone else seems to have the right to accuse them of racism. I think this is what Ajatar was trying to put across. Sorry if the Heathens took back their festival on the wrong thread, lol. We will take it back somewhere else instead. We will take it back, though, that's a promise. We won't ban Christmas either. We aren't Muslims. :D

Triglav
Monday, December 19th, 2005, 06:33 PM
CLICK (http://www.illwillpress.com/xmess.html)

beowulf wodenson
Wednesday, December 21st, 2005, 06:33 PM
But people without traditions are rootless, so Christian traditions are better than no traditions at all. Perhaps. Better in my biased opinion as a Heathen would be the native folk-ways of one's ancestors, where true roots lie, not an alien import from the Mid-East.
Hear the call of Woden all ye Germanics looking for your spiritual heritage, Lugh ye Gaels, Zeuss for ye Greeks 'n Italians, ?Perkun? all ye Slavs, etc. I confess I know little about native Finnish/Baltic heathenism, but you get the idea. ;)

[QUOTE]Sorry if the Heathens took back their festival on the wrong thread, lol. We will take it back somewhere else instead. We will take it back, though, that's a promise. We won't ban Christmas either. We aren't Muslims. [QUOTE]
Oops. Late to the party as usual.

Sigrid
Thursday, December 22nd, 2005, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=beowulf]Perhaps. Better in my biased opinion as a Heathen would be the native folk-ways of one's ancestors, where true roots lie, not an alien import from the Mid-East.
Hear the call of Woden all ye Germanics looking for your spiritual heritage, Lugh ye Gaels, Zeuss for ye Greeks 'n Italians, ?Perkun? all ye Slavs, etc. I confess I know little about native Finnish/Baltic heathenism, but you get the idea. ;)

Agree with you entirely. Beautiful unique cultures were built round these things. Good news is that the Greeks are after re-erecting the statue of Helios (the "Colossus") at Rhodes.

palesye
Thursday, December 22nd, 2005, 05:43 PM
But is not Heathen tradition broken (question to all Heathens)? I mean, tradition is something continual. Once it broken, it can never be restored in original meaning. Just my opinion, don't bite too hard. :)
This situation gives birth to plenty of neo-smth, wiccans etc etc, fake interpretations and so on.

Lissu
Thursday, December 22nd, 2005, 06:06 PM
But is not Heathen tradition broken (question to all Heathens)? I mean, tradition is something continual. Once it broken, it can never be restored in original meaning. Just my opinion, don't bite too hard. :)
This situation gives birth to plenty of neo-smth, wiccans etc etc, fake interpretations and so on.I agree with this. Todays heathenism is neo-heathenism, however it doesn't make it any worse.

Heathenism was replaced by Christianity in Germanic areas about a millennium ago. Then there has been a millennium of Christianism and indeed during that time it has changed quite a bit from the original. In northern parts of Europe Lutheranism has been the main religion for almost 500 years and it is quite different from Catholicism.

Of course many heathen traditions continued their existence in Christianism, and Christmas is one of them.

I fully support those who have chosen the religion their ancestors some 500 generations ago practised. But they should not condemn those who have chosen otherwise.

I don't like religious fanaticism. I don't care if the fanatic is Odinist or muslim, fanatic is always a fanatic :coffee:

Hmm... my dictionary says the other meaning for the word fanatic is fascist :P

Sigrid
Friday, December 23rd, 2005, 05:06 AM
Fasicsts there are, but they are political. Paganism in Europe today is very nature-oriented, very green, very different from what it was, obviously because we are not what we were so we would have evolved anyway. Science has removed superstition. At least it should have. Too many pagans today are obsessed with an idea that they can perform "magic". This is nonsense. However it will be transitory as more people from various walks of life join. The more educated, enlightened people you get in a religion the more complex and interesting it becomes. That is what happened to Christianity. At first ignorance and blind belief and all the demons and wonders and magic and as time went by the more sane, humane intelligence of its variations. Luther was not a peasant, he was a scholar. So his Christianity would have have been much different from the creed forced on the hapless ignorant peasants of early Europe. The rich usually accepted it because they knew it would advance their wealth or power. But when they translated the Bible so people could read it in their own languages the ordinary individual could become his own kind of Christian. They did, unfortunately and tragically, burn at the stake the man who translated it from Latin into English.

Paganism today is varied because it's largely experimental, like early Christianity. It will weather down to whatever suits a group. There are "fascists" who try and lay down rules and laws and behave badly by rejecting other groups and so on. The "we have the only answer" type. It's snobbish and egotistical and usually causes nothing but more splits.

European paganism is a good creed when its practised by people who aren't using it for other reasons. If you use any religion like that it eventually causes you to be harmed by it or to harm others by your actions. Christianity more than made up for its history of this behaviour. Islam is now doing the same. But European paganism is growing out of a need for people who have lost their identity to find it again through a faith that belongs to them ethnically and is very old. It contains a world view that is ancient and that is ours. many Africans are investigating a similar route for themselves and so are Native Americans and even Mexicans are starting to think about what it really means to be what is now grouped as "Mexican".

European Paganism will never be what Christianity was. There will never be mass convertions. It is more a gentle return to earth and to connection with ancestors and spirituality that is grounded in an idea of a circle not a straight line. In the myth of the eternal return rather than a linear path from birth to death to heaven or hell. Paganism is organic in that it can grow and evolve as the individual and his world does and it involves above all a good relationship with the world rather than a vision of that world as filled with evil or sadness. The world itself is considered to be basically positive and regenerative through time as part of the cosmic spectacle. And women have a completely different significance in European paganism to the one they have in the Abrahamic faiths.

Be careful of matching heathenism to political agendas. You get people who have missed the point and worship race instead. This is not heathenism. This is something else. They aren't accepted by genuine heathens. They are considered as a cult based on past misconceptions of heathenism by certain people. Time will tell what develops.
:fgift:

Alizon Device
Sunday, December 25th, 2005, 08:32 PM
@ Silver Falcon

Yes, that's why I find it quite humorous when I read news articles reporting the banning of Xmas lights in city centres and carol singing etc.

Christianity is steadily being sidelined as un-PC and somehow 'unsavoury',
exactly like the 'religion' preceding it in Northern Europe was. By the Christians. :)

I was brought up strictly Church of England, though I have abjured this faith.
But when I see the Head of the C. of E. (Prince Charles) wanting to discard his future title of 'Defender of the Faith', in favour of 'Defender of Faiths', it still disgusts me.

I will say, those aforementioned news stories do get my back up, because of the alien influences who are demanding such action.

But, NO sympathy for Anglicanism/ Roman Catholicism plc.

Sigrid
Monday, December 26th, 2005, 05:24 AM
Midnight Green, my people also come from East Anglia. Waes Hael!

The Prince of whom you speak would appear to be a closet Muslim and I think this is why he has more than a seeming multicultural agenda. He treated his first wife so badly he chased her into the arms of the enemy, so as far as I am concerned he isn't a "defender" at all, but a selfish introvert who finally got what he always wanted and didn't care if a kingdom was shamed for him to do it. His mother last year made a multicultural speech designed for her by her masters. How dreary kings are. All the way from the one who sold the Anglo-Saxons into the feudal dictatorship of the Normans and prostituted us to an illegitimate usurper to the dandies of today in a pair of princes with the IQs of tortoise dung.

Islam is easiest to defend against now. We can say "no thanks". We can say it with conviction and we can show that we mean it. We do not have to fight it with Christianity or anything but our unwillingness to live side by side with it and our equal unwillingness to upohold so-called leaders who sell us into slavery.

We must say "NO" and we say it soon and we must say it with conviction in massive numbers and we must order the left to leave the arena or fight. If they fight they may take on more than they bargained for and if they leave with the understanding that the people have spoken they may escape the people's anger.

It all depends on how egotistical they are, on how much they think we think they can't lose. Everyone can lose, but not everyone can win. That is a conundrum the left must think about, not before it's too late for us but before it's too late for them.

:angryfis:

beowulf wodenson
Monday, December 26th, 2005, 05:27 PM
But is not Heathen tradition broken (question to all Heathens)? I mean, tradition is something continual. Once it broken, it can never be restored in original meaning. Just my opinion, don't bite too hard.


You are correct. Modern Heathenry must necessarily involve reconstruction. We are quite aware that unfortunately what we practice today cannot be the original Heathen traditions. We try to be as faithful to historical information and the native lore on our religious practices as possible.
I am no christian but neither am I a religious "fanatic". I do not condemn others who wish to be christian as long as they do not force it upon me. My family and kin are all devout christians, baptist, and catholic, and I love them or respect them though I do not accept their faiths. Theirs is the way of religious intolerance and fanatacism unfortunately :frown:
Muslims I do not accept nor tolerate because of the alien danger, racial and cultural, they present, the same for judaism. I have naught against other faiths so long as they do not infringe upon mine.

Sigrid
Monday, December 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM
What we must think about, Beowulf, is that if our people had not been converted they would have had spiritual evolution from those traditions lasting a thousand years. This would have changed and developed and advanced the world view considerably. The Vikings had an extra 500 years on the Anglo-Saxons because of earlier conversion of the latter. This is why I don't hold to purist revivalist heathenry. It is a tradition of individuality anyway and this is how I'd like to see it stay. Within the broad confines of Northern European paganism. I think it's time the funny costumes and archaic speech were modernised so that we can truly begin to take our place as a religion of the modern world and a spiritual view that is contemporary and can accommodate science, technology and progress. That is what I believe would have happened naturally anyway as our ancestors were often on the cutting edge of these things as they moved about and developed their skills.

And certain aspects of a fascist nature have no place in our faith, had no place in it and should have no place in it in the future. That is one of our greatest battles. We need to confront a few remaining Jotuns to reach the new world on the gleaming plain of Idavoll.

beowulf wodenson
Monday, December 26th, 2005, 11:07 PM
I think it's time the funny costumes and archaic speech were modernised so that we can truly begin to take our place as a religion of the modern world and a spiritual view that is contemporary and can accommodate science, technology and progress.

I couldn't agree more. I am a history nut, but do not live in the past. Instead, I say preserve old yet timeless values and customs, and apply them to the modern day.

Sigrid
Tuesday, December 27th, 2005, 04:24 AM
I couldn't agree more. I am a history nut, but do not live in the past. Instead, I say preserve old yet timeless values and customs, and apply them to the modern day.

The Christians did that very effectively once they had got over the primitive aspects. From the age of enlightenment onward Christianity became more of a philosophy of humanism and has now become secularised socialism and liberalism. These have their own pitfalls as we know. We face quite a challenge in advancing while remaining folkish. Druidism sold itself to the world. The influence of Christianity and a fear of the racist label, I think, causes this. The Druids of today are not the Druids of long ago. They are mostly universalists and pacifists. Although that may be changing ...

A lot of pressure is put on people who want to keep their traditions for themselves in order to preserve them or evolve them through a particular folk group. I find that institutions like the ADL and their critical stance on symbols to be very depressing in terms of anyone wanting to take up Asatru. There are now loud disclaimers on every symbol but I think it's time this stopped. It's extremely upsetting for those of us who have to bear this continual burden of the nazi label. It's all very funny if you are a neo nazi and you think parading around in heathen symbols is a huge joke, or a finger to the Jews, but if you are a real heathen then the public suspicion and the bad press cause feelings of extreme offence and antagonism every time you have to see what are to us holy symbols laid out to the world as symbols of racial hatred and supremacy. No matter what they say, sh*t sticks. I want those symbols taken off that web site. We need to campaign to get them off that web site.

Death and the Sun
Tuesday, December 27th, 2005, 07:19 AM
A lot of pressure is put on people who want to keep their traditions for themselves in order to preserve them or evolve them through a particular folk group. I find that institutions like the ADL and their critical stance on symbols to be very depressing in terms of anyone wanting to take up Asatru. There are now loud disclaimers on every symbol but I think it's time this stopped. It's extremely upsetting for those of us who have to bear this continual burden of the nazi label. It's all very funny if you are a neo nazi and you think parading around in heathen symbols is a huge joke, or a finger to the Jews, but if you are a real heathen then the public suspicion and the bad press cause feelings of extreme offence and antagonism every time you have to see what are to us holy symbols laid out to the world as symbols of racial hatred and supremacy. No matter what they say, sh*t sticks. I want those symbols taken off that web site. We need to campaign to get them off that web site.

The ADL says that more or less that "these symbols may also be used in a non-racist context, so always assume the worst, but give the benefit of doubt". :rolleyes:

By these standards, there is one particular symbol that sorely needs to be included on that list:

http://www.designbydawn.com/images/Sparkles/StarDavid_Menorah.jpg


The ADL is a Zionist supremacist group masquerading as an "anti-racist" organisation. Now if we only could make more people understand this.

Sigrid
Tuesday, December 27th, 2005, 08:24 AM
Yes, that is one symbol lacking. The thing is we don't care how racist they are. Rascism is part of their religion and apartheid is part of their ability to survive and is an injunction of their god. Fine. Who cares? No one. Except the Palestinians who have a legitimate claim to being harassed by the symbol you mentioned and to find it a symbol of hate. What we are angry about is the fact that they feel they must keep pointing racism out to everyone else and directing it especially at us.

We aren't hostile to them as such or to their racism, we are hostile to their hypocrisy. It's our own fault to a degree, we don't make enough of a fuss. They have succeeded in getting the svastika banned. There are still millions of people who don't know it isn't a nazi symbol but a pagan symbol adopted by the nazis. They say they know this but they don't let that stop them stopping us from using a symbol that is so old and so unracist in meanng and significance as to have been used by all people who came from solstice venerating cultures, in particular the Indo-Europeans.

:viking2:

beowulf wodenson
Tuesday, December 27th, 2005, 04:59 PM
Yet again, I agree Silver Falcon. My politics I have already addressed here at TnP, but I DO NOT use the holy symbols of my gods in political display IE no Mjolnir, Valknut, etc. to advance strictly socio-political goals.


By these standards, there is one particular symbol that sorely needs to be included on that list:
The ADL is a Zionist supremacist group masquerading as an "anti-racist" organisation. Now if we only could make more people understand this.

Well said. Zionism is a form of racial supremacy, jewish supremacy as it were. Typical irony and hypocrisy that they call racial nationalists, separatists, etc. "white supremacists" when they are actually the supremacists themselves vis a vi rule over the Palestinians, dominant elite in U.S. , etc.
As seen in many translated Talmudic quotes (if accurate), their religious teachings are also quite hateful towards all non-jews.
But I must digress. It is sheer hypocrisy and willful deception that the ADL displays Heathen holy symbols as "hate symbols" yet somehow neglect the hateful nature of their own religion.
Such I expect from their ilk, though.