PDA

View Full Version : Neanderthals and Later Populations in Europe



morfrain_encilgar
Monday, January 26th, 2004, 12:24 PM
The idea of Neanderthal admixture into later populations is defended for Vindija in Croatia.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, January 26th, 2004, 12:31 PM
Multiregionalism is supported in Palestine, and in the Balkans.

Cown and Keith considered the Mount Carmel samples as "in the throes of evolutionary change"...
in the beginning the finds were treated as one single sample with a great bandwith of variability, ranging from modern to neanderthaloid but still fairly modern to definite neanderthaler(a minority of individuals), linked by identical tool-kit and burial ceremonies, only later they brought a sharp unorganic division between the levantines.

morfrain_encilgar
Monday, January 26th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Cown and Keith considered the Mount Carmel samples as "in the throes of evolutionary change"...
in the beginning the finds were treated as one single sample with a great bandwith of variability, ranging from modern to neanderthaloid but still fairly modern to definite neanderthaler(a minority of individuals), linked by identical tool-kit and burial ceremonies, only later they brought a sharp unorganic division between the levantines.

Wolpoff and Lee found that some of the "sapiens" were closer to the Neanderthal types than to each other in that region.

They found this branching order.

Tahun
Qafzeh III
Skhul IV - Skhul IX
Qafzeh IX
Amud
Qafzeh VI
Skhul V

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, January 27th, 2004, 12:02 AM
Wolpoff and Lee found that some of the "sapiens" were closer to the Neanderthal types than to each other in that region.

They found this branching order.

Tahun
Qafzeh III
Skhul IV - Skhul IX
Qafzeh IX
Amud
Qafzeh VI
Skhul V

Indeed, Jelinek compared the Mladec5 with the Spy2 Neanderthaler to prove regional continuity, shape and cranial size were considered similar, the moderns actually accentuated certain particularities common to Neanderthalers, which might hint on hybrid vigour.

Wolpoff also disapproves of using the qualification of *modern* for the early modernsof 100000years ago, often they display a range of features which one cant fail to consider archaic in comparison to Late Pleistocene and Holocene man.

Great variability does also exist among the Neanderthalers, for instance the basion-bregmatic skull height of La Chapelle and La Ferrassie1 was resp.130mm and 136mm, in regard to La Chapelle the specimen equals the Skhul people, La Ferrassie excels them and should be considered on this single aspect high-roofed and near to Combe Capelle.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, January 27th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Wolpoff also disapproves of using the qualification of *modern* for the early modernsof 100000years ago, often they display a range of features which one cant fail to consider archaic in comparison to Late Pleistocene and Holocene man.


The use of the word "early modern" is itself grounded on the idea that they are actually archaic, but are part of an archaic group that is seperate to neanderthals, and closer to true moderns.

What do you think of Skhul V, which has been compared to later Australasians?

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, January 27th, 2004, 09:31 PM
The use of the word "early modern" is itself grounded on the idea that they are actually archaic, but are part of an archaic group that is seperate to neanderthals, and closer to true moderns.

What do you think of Skhul V, which has been compared to later Australasians?

Coon affirms in his The Origin of Races that the Skhul V male was essentially Australoid and not fully Europoid.
The deep set nasal root and flattened nasal bone are in line with the Australoids, uncannily the degree of flatness of the upper face bears more than a passing similarity to the Bushmen; Wadjak I should be mentioned here too.

The Skhul V skull was ill-fitted with prominent pariental bosses, modern Australoids and Melanesians display a similar structure; idem Combe Capelle and pithecoid markings are common to the Central European Cromagnids.
The eminency in the pariental region is a Cro Magnon characteristic, the eastern variety was more ellipsoid but equally low vaulted.

Skhul V was even more low vaulted than modern Australoids' average, comparable to both the other Levantine samples and the West European Neanderthalers, while from Wadjak I till the mesolithic finds of Tam Pong the predecessors of the Australasians were definitively from bregma down to basion high, but still in the same league as La Ferrassie and La Chapelle or the Aurignicians; curiously high-vaultedness was in the Late Pleistocene an aberration of some *Negroid* types in SW Europe and the Chancelids.
Insofar skull breadth is a marker of robusticity, the UPs were like these early modern Levantines of the moderate class, the large head breadth links the present-day Europeans stronger with Neanderthal Man than with the UP, however the distinction between both groups shouldn't be exaggerated, if you check out W.W.Howells craniometric series, http://www.racearchives.com/calc/wwhowells_craniomeasurements.asp,you'll notice that virtually every non-Europid population or etnical group which habitat falls off from the possible territorial range of the Neanderthaler, or in last instance, even not assorted within the darker segments of the Mittlere Linie(I relagete to my Bavarian friend Nordgau the honours to give an account on the theories of Hans Weinert and the concept of the Mittlere Linie, in which he's our Forum's expert), is metrical not compatible with their ancestral forms, but that between Neanderthalers/UP/Ainu/Modern Europeans and the rest of the world yawns a formidable craniometrical ravine, outlined in a rough sketch, most non-Europids and non-Eurasians are medium to very short and narrow-headed, the breadth dramatically consistent in showing means below 139mm.

In my opinion, Skhul V is a *stand-alone*, possessing a palate of traits and morphological patterns which will define the races of the Mittlere Linie after branching off in a Eurasian and Australasian family,remember even his prognatious character has its equivalent in Combe Capelle, which we would define as a Europid with *equatorial* characteristics.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, January 27th, 2004, 11:49 PM
Coon affirms in his The Origin of Races that the Skhul V male was essentially Australoid and not fully Europoid.
The deep set nasal root and flattened nasal bone are in line with the Australoids, uncannily the degree of flatness of the upper face bears more than a passing similarity to the Bushmen; Wadjak I should be mentioned here too.


According to Oppenheimer, Skhul V is closest to Papua New Guinea. But, some people now claim that Wadjak is Paleomongoloid.



Skhul V was even more low vaulted than modern Australoids' average, comparable to both the other Levantine samples and the West European Neanderthalers, while from Wadjak I till the mesolithic finds of Tam Pong the predecessors of the Australasians were definitively from bregma down to basion high, but still in the same league as La Ferrassie and La Chapelle or the Aurignicians; curiously high-vaultedness was in the Late Pleistocene an aberration of some *Negroid* types in SW Europe and the Chancelids.


Am I right to think that Negroid refers here to Grimaldid, as I presume?



In my opinion, Skhul V is a *stand-alone*, possessing a palate of traits and morphological patterns which will define the races of the Mittlere Linie after branching off in a Eurasian and Australasian family,remember even his prognatious character has its equivalent in Combe Capelle, which we would define as a Europid with *equatorial* characteristics.


What I am speculating on at the moment, is that there were two (main) out of Africa migrations of moderns. One is the migration represented by Skhul V, which continued eastwards to become Australoid. Another migration may have left Africa through Arabia, and that this group split into the other non-African races of today.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Am I right to think that Negroid refers here to Grimaldid, as I presume?







I was actually thinking of one representative of the extremely tall Cromagnids of Barma Grande with a LHI of 76.7; while orthognatious, with Europoid facial traits and a pelvis of Europid confirmation, their limb proportion and the shape of the heel are *negroid*.
Personally I find the Old Man of Barma Grande with its wide nasal opening and rather small, low face not that much different from the Grimaldi boy.

Vallois contemplated for the origin of the Aethiopid race and the semi-Hamitics like the Massai, Nandi and Fulbe/Peul a distant and primitive stock, which never completely seperated itself in a Negrid and Europid direction, which appearances and entity cant be dismissed like by Lundman as a Mischzoneof Black and White races, the problem of later modifications is however to be brought on their account, but are of mere secondary meaning.

The Barma Grande and Grimaldi types could be rated as their ancestors.
The East Africans mentioned above have indeed a more regular oval face, perhaps under influence of the Saharids, or /and reinforcing the gracilisation process which is another and often unawared evolutionary property typifying the UPs(see the relation between Faelids/West Elbians and Göta-types:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7592).

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 04:18 AM
I was actually thinking of one representative of the extremely tall Cromagnids of Barma Grande with a LHI of 76.7; while orthognatious, with Europoid facial traits and a pelvis of Europid confirmation, their limb proportion and the shape of the heel are *negroid*.
Personally I find the Old Man of Barma Grande with its wide nasal opening and rather small, low face not that much different from the Grimaldi boy.

Vallois contemplated for the origin of the Aethiopid race and the semi-Hamitics like the Massai, Nandi and Fulbe/Peul a distant and primitive stock, which never completely seperated itself in a Negrid and Europid direction, which appearances and entity cant be dismissed like by Lundman as a Mischzoneof Black and White races, the problem of later modifications is however to be brought on their account, but are of mere secondary meaning.

The Barma Grande and Grimaldi types could be rated as their ancestors.
The East Africans mentioned above have indeed a more regular oval face, perhaps under influence of the Saharids, or /and reinforcing the gracilisation process which is another and often unawared evolutionary property typifying the UPs(see the relation between Faelids/West Elbians and Göta-types:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7592).


I wonder how relevant Herto may be to all of this. Or, further west, Asselar. Which modern subraces in Africa are they closest to?

I think the situation is complex in east Africa because Ethiopians have mitochondrial relationship with Capoids, and because Brace finds East Africans to be craniometrically close to South Asians.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 03:44 PM
A lot of people here are not aware of the existence of the Herto or H.sapiens idaltu, a primitive but supposedly close member of our species, who lived in Central Ethiopia and was contemporous with the Neanderthaler, providing to the Out-of-Africa faction some *hard* evidence that modern humans appeared first in Africa.

To accomodate them, I will procure here a few links to make them this subject more accessible:

http://www.control.com.au/247features.htm

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/LR-34b.htm

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993814

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/06/11_bones-background.shtml


Attached:
*Neanderthaler
*Homo erectus
*Herto

Nordgau
Wednesday, January 28th, 2004, 04:00 PM
I relagete to my Bavarian friend Nordgau the honours to give an account on the theories of Hans Weinert and the concept of the Mittlere Linie, in which he's our Forum's expert).

:D I think you mean this here:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3234&highlight=weinert

I know a good concept of classification of the races of mankind from Hans Weinert, Entstehung der Menschenrassen, Stuttgart 1941:

Weinert makes a "main line" or middle line of recent racial forms. On the bottom of this middle line is the "dark part" of this middle line: Australians, Weddas, Weddids, Drawidas, Tasmanians (exterminated), Melanesians and Negritos. These are the racial forms that stayed primitive, not only of the middle line, but also of mankind.
In the middle of the middle line are the Ainu: more developed and not as primitive as the races named before, but also not as developed as the real Caucasians and Europids.
On the upper part of the middle line of mankind are its developed and specialized forms, its fair parts: first, the surely not primitive, but developed Polynesians, and then the real Europids from Indids up to Nordids.

This is not a real "ancestry tree", because all races are recent, existing races of today's mankind. It only says, that Australians and so on (the dark part of the middle line) didn't develope and stayed primitive in their forms, while this middle line's other parts in other areas of the world, developed by mutation and selection to "higher" and more specialiced forms, though their ancestors surely looked more like Australians.

But nevertheless, one still can see the certain common ground of the dark part and the fair part of the middle line in the phenotypical forms, compared with the two side lines of mankind: the left line: the Negrids (with Hottentotts, Buschmänner [I don't know the English name - "Bushmen"?] Pygmies), and the right line: the Mongolids (with Indians, Eskimos and Malai).

These two side lines are clear different from the middle line, they are from an evolutionary view young and specialized forms of mankind. In spite of the dark skin, the Australian cannot be together with the Negro: the Australian is from his phenotype primitive and archaic, while the Negro shows everywhere (head shape, prognathy, lips, ... ) the characteristics of a specialized and developed African type of mankind. The same with the Mongolid who is in all his forms a developed and specialized form of North-East Asian environment.

So, mainly, one can make a division between three clear different lines of mankind, the "caucasian race", the "black race" and the "yellow race". Negroes and Mongolids are side lines quite different from the middle line, while the "caucasian race" (Europids) is the developed part of the middle line of mankind; the Australians and so on are the dark part of the middle line where there had been no or much less development and specialization than among the Europids.

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:19 AM
I usually hear that the origin of the Negrids is somewhat in the dark and that the evidence coming from north and west of the Congo basin, supposed cradles where the Negrid race assumed it definitive anatomical appearance was/is considered sparsely seminated in time and space.

Assalar man, was found in Northern Niger, 400km off Timbuktu, and dates back when that part of the Sahara was rich in animal life and a wide river perenially watered the area.
Coon reckons that the find is post-pleistocene.
He describes the man as such:

"It was that of an adult male at least five feet seven inches tall(170cm), whose long bones were slender, whose forearms were long in relation to his upper arms, whose lower legs were long in relation to his thights.
His pelvis and foot bones were all Negroid.
In fact , from the neck down he was altogether a Negro."

Montandon admits that Asselar in great lines should be considered Negroid.
The nasal aperture is far to wide for Europid, the nose bridge however is prow-like, with a flattened nasal root and projecting glabella.
He was dolichocranial(70.9) and high-vaulted.The face was short and the cheekbones salient, he detects an uncanny confluence of cromagnoid and khoisanoid traits as in South Africa with the Boskop find.
Pelvis(high, narrow) and limbs are Negroid, not equatorial but Europid like the Cro Magnons or Capellids.

Like Rhodesian man and the Elementeitas in the Kenyan Highlands the Negrid distinctives are not yet entirely fleshed-out, speciation would have occured in a much retarded stage.
Even if modern humans evolved uniquely in Africa, they were probably not African in race and the reconstruction of Herto man, either as Negroid or as *Papuan* implies a generic progressive evolution in a very early period of time which is elsewhere generally dismissed, besides an evolved race mayanswer to certain selective pressures and adapt to a given geo-climatical zone with the elsewhere also recurrent patterns, but they're mere equivalents, which help a population *to tune in* to a certain living area and one may encounter certain physiological traits witnessed in a totally different environment with a population which by far and large has nothing to do with those others, but there's no question of transfiguration in something completely different, another race.

Africa may be the cradle of modern humanity, and we might be deep down in us all Africans, but the Europid races dont descend from Negroids...till now there is little which disproves my inclination to believe that the reverse situation is closer to the truth and Weinert's theories are ground-breaking in that respect.

Agrippa
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 01:37 AM
I think Australiform features (like the Australoids today) are the primitive human ones.
This might be the basic human form which developed different in various regions.

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 02:03 AM
Pelvis(high, narrow) and limbs are Negroid, not equatorial but Europid like the Cro Magnons or Capellids.


Does this refer to Asselar (which would contradict the statement by Coon)? Or to Boskop?

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Does this refer to Asselar (which would contradict the statement by Coon)? Or to Boskop?

Asselar, it doesn't contradict him on the issue of his built(I meant that the UP Europeans show equatorial limb proportions but still recognizeable as distinct Europoid), but he was less Negroid than assumed; however, if he stems from the Mesolithic, he might just be a Negro mixed with a Cromagnoid of the Mechta el-Arbi type and not a stepping-stone in a Negrid line.

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Asselar, it doesn't contradict him on the issue of his built(I meant that the UP Europeans show equatorial limb proportions but still recognizeable as distinct Europoid), but he was less Negroid than assumed; however, if he stems from the Mesolithic, he might just be a Negro mixed with a Cromagnoid of the Mechta el-Arbi type and not a stepping-stone in a Negrid line.

...and the Mechtoids or North African Cromagnoids, dwelling the litorals and tells of the eastern Magrebs, were like the Asselar *hybrid* tall people, ortognatous, broad-faced and with projecting malars but with a chamaerhine nasla index(broad apertures, deep nasion depressions despite beaky nasal bones..)...the vault is slightly keeled, an affair rather appropiated by Combe Capellids and Melanesians....Incidently, Montandon designate the finds in Florisbad and Cape Flats as australo-negroid, while the Springbok skull demonstrates another encounter of Khoisanid-Europoid features.

These specimens serve well as kind of time capsules holding fast the moment wherein already differentiated but still "holistic" entities are progressing in a specialized and individualized type or subform, shedding complementary characteristics away...others are probably nothing more than freak experiments by Nature, dead ends of just and again due to the lack of a large referential material, individuals scuttling the outer fringes of a population's variability, resulting in a convergence.
Herto could be such a precocious but marginalized experiment.

morfrain_encilgar
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 01:45 PM
...the vault is slightly keeled, an affair rather appropiated by Combe Capellids and Melanesians....Incidently, Montandon designate the finds in Florisbad and Cape Flats as australo-negroid, while the Springbok skull demonstrates another encounter of Khoisanid-Europoid features.


I am interested in finding out more about Cape Flats, and where it fits now. What has been suggested about its relationships recently? I have seen it considered to be "archaic" instead of a "modern" sapiens.

morfrain_encilgar
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Incidently, Montandon designate the finds in Florisbad and Cape Flats as australo-negroid, while the Springbok skull demonstrates another encounter of Khoisanid-Europoid features.


Florisbad is the species or race helmei. Recently this race has been suggested to be the ancestor shared of both neanderthals and modern sapiens, pushing pre-Neanderthal Europeans further down. But I suspect that admixture occurred at an early date and that neanderthals are descended from pre-Neanderthal Europeans, as well as (probably) from populations migrating out of Africa.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, February 3rd, 2004, 08:54 AM
Returning to the study which sparked this tour de force, it seems to me that what these guys did was to adjust one sample size to match another sample and then compare it to a "modern" sample. The Kaprina remains are fragmentary. If the new sample is as fragmentary, I have one question: How do you seperate the males from the females and by what standard? You cannot compare females to males, obviously a method to "sex" Neanderthal post-pelvic remains is necessary. Do we have a means to do this? We do but it is never mentioned or used. This can be done using volume. The volume of the femer, for instance, is measured. Large post cranial bones in any population yield two distinct groups based upon volume, male and female. Yet in this study, they focussed only on brow ridges. How can you say for certain if the brow ridge you are looking at is a male or female---you simply cannot. You can guess and usually be right but you can't know for sure.