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Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 12:37 AM
By V.D. Dyachenko, 1965

Originally posted by Ross. Translated by Ross.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6409&stc=1&d=1130024305

Loki
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 08:41 AM
Interesting, thank you. Thus the Austrians have lighter eyes than their neighbours.

Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:02 PM
Interesting, thank you. Thus the Austrians have lighter eyes than their neighbours.
I don't really see where you read this. They seem pretty similar to the Czechs in this regard, although only the eastern regions of Austria were sampled and Tyrol and Vorarlberg were left out, which are probably the darkest. Slovenia was studied pretty evenly and even a sample from Italy was included (Slovenians from Triest). If anything, this study would indicate that Austrians are equal to or somewhat darker than their neighbours in terms of eye pigmentation, but the differences are way too small to be taken at face value. Coon presented various studies on the same populations and some had conflicting results. Thus, these studies must be taken with a pinch of salt, especially when the results are so similar.

What really surprises me is that Carinthia seems to be the lightest region in both Austria and Slovenia (but since entire Carinthia is overwhelmingly Slavic, this is no surprise :D). I'm sure the outcome would have been quite different had they studied hair colour. Right, Agrippa? :D

Loki
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:05 PM
I don't really see where you read this.

LOL, in the numbers you've just posted? :rolleyes:

Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:08 PM
LOL, in the numbers you've just posted? :rolleyes:
Well, Eastern Austria is quite similar to the Czech republic, assuming the entire Czech republic was taken into consideration. As for the rest, read my post.

Loki
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:13 PM
Well, Eastern Austria is quite similar to the Czech republic, assuming the entire Czech republic was taken into consideration. As for the rest, read my post.

According to your table, Austrians are lighest as a grouping, and Carinthians as a subgrouping - even though the differences are minor in some cases.

Edit: Czechs may be lighter as a grouping, but not lighter than Carinthians.

Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:32 PM
But that doesn't really follow from the chart that I posted.

Austrians (only eastern Austrians were studied):
dark (average): 26,25
light (average): 52,25


Czechs:
dark: 28
light: 56


If we only consider eastern Slovenes, we get the following picture:
dark: 30,2
light: 55,75


But these are only approximate numbers, of course, and I'm sure it could have been easily the other way around (it often is). I think it is important to stress that we are speaking in relative terms here.

Loki
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:37 PM
But that doesn't really follow from the chart that I posted.

Austrians (only eastern Austrians were studied):
dark (average): 26,25
light (average): 52,25


Czechs:
dark: 28
light: 56


If we only consider eastern Slovenes, we get the following picture:
dark: 30,2
light: 55,75


But these are only approximate numbers, of course, and I'm sure it could have been easily the other way around (it often is). I think it is important to stress that we are speaking in relative terms.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at, by using these selected sub-groupings in comparison. On the whole, Austrians are lighter-eyes than all, except for Czechs. See, the Slovenes also have a higher percentage of dark eyes than Austrians.

Well, I guess this is not a surprise to those who know the region better. I do admit I am somewhat surprised, because I always thought Slovenes were lighter than Austrians. I guess I was wrong, after all. ;)

Thanks for posting this.

Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 05:53 PM
I don't understand what you're trying to get at, by using these selected sub-groupings in comparison.

Again, unlike Slovenia and (obviously) the Czech republic, the western part of Austria was not studied.


On the whole, Austrians are lighter-eyes than all, except for Czechs.

Thus not the lightest as you implied above.



See, the Slovenes also have a higher percentage of dark eyes than Austrians.

And also a higher percentage of light eyes if we compare the eastern part of both countries, as the western part of Austria wasn't sampled. In both Austria and Slovenia, the western parts (the Alps and towards Italy) are somewhat darker and the Dinarid and Alpinid types are a bit more numerous in these regions. Ask Agrippa if you don't believe me. :coffee:

The percentages must be set out according to the regions, as you obviously can not compare apples and oranges.


Well, I guess this is not a surprise to those who know the region better. I do admit I am somewhat surprised, because I always thought Slovenes were lighter than Austrians.

I, on the other hand, have always been under the impression that they're more or less similar. I'm somewhat surprised to see that (north-)eastern Croats are darker than Austrians or Slovenes, however.


I guess I was wrong, after all. ;)

Thanks for posting this.

You're very welcome.

Triglav
Sunday, October 23rd, 2005, 06:16 PM
I just received word that Dyachenko was only the publisher and the data was collected by a German or Austrian anthropologist who goes by the name of Weissbach.

Does that name ring a bell with anyone?

Agrippa
Monday, October 24th, 2005, 09:02 PM
What I wonder is where mixed eyes were counted, light I assume?

Concerning Carinthia, I just wonder where exactly the samples were taken from, its really the same like it is in Tyrol, you get whole valleys which are almost exclusively light, really light, sometimes a lighter average in terms of hair, eye and skin (typical white-red spotted because the blood is always visible) than in Scandinavia and some kilometers further you see quite dark individuals.
So I'm always somewhat sceptical if its about such samples, since it depends where you get them and chance or personal attitude might be too important. Furthermore the results are quite relative, since a Nordid-Dinarid has a higher chance of being rather dark than a Nordid-Osteuropid f.e., so in terms of Nordid percentage things are quite open again, though its hard to argue that the Czechs are on average more Nordid than lets say core Austria (Upper and Lower), thats in fact almost impossible, though there are huge differences (not as big in core Austria and Czech republic than in the more diverse and mostly more hilly regions of Tyrol and Carinthia).
Carinthians seem to have a quite high percentage of Nordid types in some areas as well, mostly mixed with Dinarid, Alpinid, Dalofaelid and Atlantomediterranid, sporadically Osteuropid (Eastbaltid rather).

I wouldnt underestimate Tyrol, since North and East Tyrol are quite interesting landscapes with great people, mostly of Nordid, Dinarid (many Norids), Alpinid and Atlantomediterranid stock, quite progressive and impressive on average and not as dark as South Tyrol and Northern Italy, which is not that dark anyway...(though the mixture with really darker elements always lead to a darker average than mixing with the medium pigmented Dinarid and Alpinid types)

Triglav
Monday, October 24th, 2005, 11:56 PM
What I wonder is where mixed eyes were counted, light I assume?

Concerning Carinthia, I just wonder where exactly the samples were taken from, its really the same like it is in Tyrol, you get whole valleys which are almost exclusively light, really light, sometimes a lighter average in terms of hair, eye and skin (typical white-red spotted because the blood is always visible) than in Scandinavia and some kilometers further you see quite dark individuals.
So I'm always somewhat sceptical if its about such samples, since it depends where you get them and chance or personal attitude might be too important. Furthermore the results are quite relative, since a Nordid-Dinarid has a higher chance of being rather dark than a Nordid-Osteuropid f.e., so in terms of Nordid percentage things are quite open again, though its hard to argue that the Czechs are on average more Nordid than lets say core Austria (Upper and Lower), thats in fact almost impossible, though there are huge differences (not as big in core Austria and Czech republic than in the more diverse and mostly more hilly regions of Tyrol and Carinthia).
Carinthians seem to have a quite high percentage of Nordid types in some areas as well, mostly mixed with Dinarid, Alpinid, Dalofaelid and Atlantomediterranid, sporadically Osteuropid (Eastbaltid rather).

I wouldnt underestimate Tyrol, since North and East Tyrol are quite interesting landscapes with great people, mostly of Nordid, Dinarid (many Norids), Alpinid and Atlantomediterranid stock, quite progressive and impressive on average and not as dark as South Tyrol and Northern Italy, which is not that dark anyway...(though the mixture with really darker elements always lead to a darker average than mixing with the medium pigmented Dinarid and Alpinid types)
I was talking about a comparison of Tyrol with other (eastern) provinces of Austria. I've been under the impression that, all in all, western Austria is somewhat darker than the east of the country, which is also somewhat less Dinarid than Tyrol. South Tyrol would be another story, of course. I remember a chart by Lebzelter (comparing phenotypes) and the South Tyrolean sample was very similar to the Serbian.

But we're not comparing phenotypes here. Weissbach (are you familiar with him?) obviously only collected data on eye pigmentation.

I, too, agree that these charts can serve as an indication but not as the be-all and end-all.

Loki
Tuesday, October 25th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Ross. Translated by Ross.


Please forgive me for being more suspicious after reading this... :coffee:

Triglav
Tuesday, October 25th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Please forgive me for being more suspicious after reading this... :coffee:
Ah, you miss your old friend. :white_gb: :D

It's only the names of the regions and the colours. I figured out most of the terms myself, but Ukrainian just isn't my forte. ;)

Loki
Tuesday, October 25th, 2005, 12:32 AM
I figured out most of the terms myself, but Ukrainian just isn't my forte. ;)

Well last time I heard, Ross wanted to exterminate all Ukrainians anyway. :P

/off topic

frankfurter
Saturday, October 29th, 2005, 02:44 PM
Dark hair and dark and dark-mixed eyes are common in many parts of Tyrol, especially in the areas to the south and west towards Italy and Switzerland.
The Zillertal region is a good example. Also, the higher mountain regions tend to be darker than the areas around the river valleys. The Rhaetians, who were believed to be dark and predominantly Dinaric in type, settled in this region prior to the coming of the Celtic and Germanic tribes.

Triglav
Saturday, October 29th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Dark hair and dark and dark-mixed eyes are common in many parts of Tyrol, especially in the areas to the south and west towards Italy and Switzerland.
The Zillertal region is a good example. Also, the higher mountain regions tend to be darker than the areas around the river valleys. The Rhaetians, who were believed to be dark and predominantly Dinaric in type, settled in this region prior to the coming of the Celtic and Germanic tribes.
Well, yeah, but do you have any solid material with reliable figures to support your theory and to humour us with? ;)

Many Celts were Alpinid as well.

PS: The title of the study is: "Eye pigmentation of serbs, Croats and Slovenes", which explains why the other countries were studied only superficially.

Sigurd
Saturday, October 29th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Tyrol and Vorarlberg were left out


Not only them but also Vienna, Styria and Burgenland.

Umm...there is some truth in the Tyroleans having darker eyes. I don't but my father does have brown-ish eyes, despite being a clear Austrian.
My mother is half salzburgian and half german and has blue eyes.

Sigurd
Saturday, October 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Dark hair and dark and dark-mixed eyes are common in many parts of Tyrol, especially in the areas to the south and west towards Italy and Switzerland.
The Zillertal region is a good example. Also, the higher mountain regions tend to be darker than the areas around the river valleys. The Rhaetians, who were believed to be dark and predominantly Dinaric in type, settled in this region prior to the coming of the Celtic and Germanic tribes.

Most Tyrolean population is a mixture of Rhaetians, LaTene Celts and Norics.

Triglav
Saturday, October 29th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Not only them but also Vienna, Styria and Burgenland.

Yeah, that's right, but the samples in Slovenia were taken from places in the western, eastern and central part, whereas in the case of Austria the western part was left out.



Umm...there is some truth in the Tyroleans having darker eyes. I don't but my father does have brown-ish eyes, despite being a clear Austrian.
My mother is half salzburgian and half german and has blue eyes.

I think we can all agree that there exists individual variation. ;)