PDA

View Full Version : Details on Y-chr and mtDNA haplogroups (origin, evolution and expansion)



Tore
Thursday, July 31st, 2003, 11:48 PM
mtDNA ( Mitochondrial DNA), found in every mitochondrion within every human cell, due to the mitochondrion in essense being a prokaryotic cell which forms a symbiotic relationship with the eukaryotic cell by which it is engulfed in, is passed down from mother to her children, thus being a tracer of maternal lineages.

Seven main mtDNA haplogroups are found among today's Europeans ( Syke's The Seven Daughter's of Eve).

http://www.roperld.com/mtdna.htm

Haplogroups and % of Europeans

H 47
J 17
U 11
T 9
K 6
X 6
V 5

( For some reason, the % figures add up to 101 %, when they should be about 95%)

Haplogroups W and I are also present among Europeans, although to lesser incidences when compared to the above seven.

Haplogroups H, T, U, V, W, and X are common among Northern Europeans, whereas haplogroups I, J, and K are more frequent in Southern Europe.

Haplogroup X is supposedly indicitive of Viking ancestry, and, although of European Origin, is one of five haplogroups common to Native Americans (A, B, C, D, and X).

All European Haplogroups are derived from haplogroup N, which is common among Near-Eastern peoples.

Haplogroups L1, L2, and L3 are found in Sub-Saharan Africa, and are reflective of Congoid ancestry.

Polak
Friday, August 1st, 2003, 02:47 AM
mtDNA ( Mitochondrial DNA), found in every mitochondrion within every human cell, due to the mitochondrion in essense being a prokaryotic cell which forms a symbiotic relationship with the eukaryotic cell by which it is engulfed in, is passed down from mother to her children, thus being a tracer of maternal lineages.

Seven main mtDNA haplogroups are found among today's Europeans ( Syke's The Seven Daughter's of Eve).

http://www.roperld.com/mtdna.htm

Haplogroups and % of Europeans

H 47
J 17
U 11
T 9
K 6
X 6
V 5

( For some reason, the % figures add up to 101 %, when they should be about 95%)

Haplogroups W and I are also present among Europeans, although to lesser incidences when compared to the above seven.

Haplogroups H, T, U, V, W, and X are common among Northern Europeans, whereas haplogroups I, J, and K are more frequent in Southern Europe.

Haplogroup X is supposedly indicitive of Viking ancestry, and, although of European Origin, is one of five haplogroups common to Native Americans (A, B, C, D, and X).

All European Haplogroups are derived from haplogroup N, which is common among Near-Eastern peoples.

Haplogroups L1, L2, and L3 are found in Sub-Saharan Africa, and are reflective of Congoid ancestry.


Haplogroup X is also common in Slavs and in some Central Asian groups. It may be that this is what's left of the old Nordic populations that stretched all the way to western China in ancient times. Some of the founders of the native American population may have come from this group.

Tore
Friday, August 1st, 2003, 03:01 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/daughters000420.html

The Seven Daughters of Eve


Professor Sykes and his team have created profiles for each of the seven matriarchal groups. They are:
Helena(H) — This clan lived in the ice-capped Pyrenees. As the climate warmed, Helena’s descendants trekked northward to what is now England, some 12,000 years ago. Members of this group are now present in all European countries.
Jasmine(J) — Her people had a relatively happy life in Syria, where they farmed wheat and raised domestic animals. Jasmine’s descendants traveled throughout Europe, spreading their agricultural innovations with them.
Katrine(K) — Members of this group lived in Venice 10,000 years ago. Today most of Katrine’s clan lives in the Alps.
Tara(T) — Sykes’ maternal ancestry goes back to this group, which settled in Tuscany 17,000 years ago. Descendants ventured across northern Europe and eventually crossed the English Channel.
Ursula(U) — Users of stone tools, Ursula’s clan members drifted across all of Europe.
Valda(V) — Originally from Spain, Valda and her immediate descendants lived 17,000 years ago. Later relatives moved into northern Finland and Norway.
Xenia(X) — Not much is known about Xenia, but it is believed that her people lived in the Caucasus Mountains 25,000 years ago. Just before the Ice Age, this clan spread across Europe, and even reached the Americas.
________________________________________ ____________

From this, we can safely say:

H is Upper Paleolithic
J is Neolithic
T is Nordic/ Germanic
X is some sort of Indo-European Gene-Marker
V is Uralic-affiliated (although maternal lines in Finland are strikingly different from Paternal ones, which are strongly Uralic)

Tore
Monday, August 4th, 2003, 11:52 PM
http://www.racearchives.com/archived/viewnews.asp?newsID=882625758648

Mitochondrial DNA subject to selection by climate

A subtle trade-off between energy used for heat or for muscle power apparently helped humans adapt and exploit cold regions during the last ice age, scientists report.

Today, the people who evolved ways to cope with cold are known as northern Europeans, descendants of original settlers who eked out a living under harsh northern conditions as the burden of glacial ice was retreating.

According to new evidence from genetic tests - backed up by experiments with swimming sperm - some of our ancestors became more "fit" for life in the cold, compared to others living farther south. Perhaps 20,000 years ago, this adaptation arose through a subtle metabolic shift, based on a gene mutation that allows northerners to spend more food energy for heat.

In contrast, people in less frigid zones balance their energy production more toward keeping muscles going, rather than for heat production. And how energy is used - either for heat or for powering movement - can be measured by watching how vigorously sperm cells swim. Sperm from men "programmed" for more muscle power tend to swim faster, compared to sperm from men who are better at heat production.

The discovery comes from an analysis of an odd set of genes found inside the cell's "energy factory," the mitochondrion. Every cell contains thousands of these tiny sausage-shaped mitochondria, which are responsible for "burning" nutrients and oxygen to produce energy...

Tore
Monday, August 4th, 2003, 11:55 PM
Mitochondria can be inherited from both parents

http://www.racearchives.com/archived/viewnews.asp?newsID=148861110211

Mitochondria may not be inherited solely through the maternal line, according to new research that promises to overturn accepted biological wisdom.

If confirmed by other researchers, the findings could have huge implications for evolutionary biology and biochemistry.

Robert Sanders Williams, from Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina, says the findings are "remarkable and unanticipated. This is more than a mere curiosity. It asserts the principle that it can occur in humans. It could have significant implications for the study of human evolution and the migrations of populations," he says.

For decades biologists have assumed that mitochondria - the cells' power stations - are inherited solely through the maternal line.

Mitochondria in the sperm from the father were presumed to be destroyed immediately after conception, leaving behind only those from the mother. But Marianne Schwartz and John Vissing from the University Hospital Rigshospitalet in Copenhagen, have discovered that one of their patients inherited the majority of his mitochondria from his father.

"Even with very sensitive methods, paternal mitochondrial DNA has never been detected in man before," Schwartz told Reuters. "There are many examples of family pedigrees that follow mitochondrial diseases through the maternal line..."

(cont'd)

Tore
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 06:59 AM
I just requested The Seven Daughter's of Eve by Brian Sykes, an English geneticist, from my local library.

The book deals with mitochondrial DNA and how it corresponds to various European populations, in terms of haplogroup frequency etc.

Should be of interest...

Polak
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 08:56 AM
I just requested The Seven Daughter's of Eve by Brian Sykes, an English geneticist, from my local library.

The book deals with mitochondrial DNA and how it corresponds to various European populations, in terms of haplogroup frequency etc.

Should be of interest...


If you could maybe give us some data from that book, such as the haplogroup frequency for Slavic populations, that would be fantastic. :wsg

Loki
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 12:01 PM
If you could maybe give us some data from that book, such as the haplogroup frequency for Slavic populations, that would be fantastic. :wsg

I have that book in my possession ;)

Please ask away at will, and I will dig up some info and quotes from it this evening... if Tronder doesn't get there before me :D

Regards,

Loki

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 12:40 PM
Polish Y-chromosomes
Homogeneity and distinctiveness of Polish paternal lineages revealed by Y chromosome microsatellite haplotype analysis

Rafal Ploski et al.

Hum Genet (2002) 110: 592-600

Abstract. Different regional populations from Poland were studied in order to assess the genetic heterogeneity within Poland, investigate the genetic relationships with other European populations and provide a population-specific reference database for anthropological and forensic studies. Nine Y-chromosomal microsatellites were analysed in a total of 919 unrelated males from six regions of Poland and in 1,273 male individuals from nine other European populations. AMOVA revealed that all of the molecular variation in the Polish dataset is due to variation within populations, and no variation was detected among populations of different regions of Poland. However, in the non-Polish European dataset 9.3% (P<0.0001) of the total variation was due to differences among populations. Consequently, differences in RST-values between all possible pairs of Polish populations were not statistically significant, whereas significant differences were observed in nearly all comparisons of Polish and non-Polish European populations. Phylogenetic analyses demonstrated tight clustering of Polish populations separated from non-Polish groups. Population clustering based on Y-STR haplotypes generally correlates well with the geography and history of the region. Thus, our data are consistent with the assumption of homogeneity of present-day paternal lineages within Poland and their distinctiveness from other parts of Europe, at least in respect to their Y-STR haplotypes. Electronic supplementary material to this paper can be obtained by using the Springer LINK server located at http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00439-002-0728-0.


...

Population samples from Germany and Russia also showed similarities to Polish populations, with relatively small RST-values on pairwise comparisons (0.0176-0.097). It is noteworthy that all but one of the comparisons between the six Polish populations and the Russians revealed statistically non-significant differences (0.05

0.001). These genetic similarities are most probably a result of the common Slavic origin. On the other hand, small genetic distances between all of the Polish-German population pairs were statistically significant (P<0.0001), which might reflect the different background of Slavic-speaking and German-speaking populations. The significant differences revealed between Polish and German samples are especially striking, since the two populations have had close contact during the last millennium and both have inhabited the territory of present-day Poland. This demonstrates a continuous lack of admixture between Germans and Poles, most probably for social, religious and cultural reasons. Genetic difference between Germans and Poles have been reported previously, based on a 1-bp deletion at the Y-chromosomal marker M17 (haplotype Eu19; Semino et al. 2000), which has a high frequency in Poles (56%) but a much lower frequency in Germans (6%). However, other studies, using the Y-SNP marker SRY-1532b (synonym SRY 10831b, haplogroup 3), which characterises basically the same Y chromosome lineage (Tyler-Smith 1999; Wheale et al. 2001; The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), have found a much higher frequency of ~30% in larger samples from Germany (M. Kayser, unpublished data; Rosser et al. 2000; Zerjal et al. 1999), which is still only about half the frequency in Poland

I thought this abstract is of some importance to Polak.

Polak
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 01:13 PM
Polish Y-chromosomes
Homogeneity and distinctiveness of Polish paternal lineages revealed by Y chromosome microsatellite haplotype analysis

Rafal Ploski et al.

Hum Genet (2002) 110: 592-600

Abstract. Different regional populations from Poland were studied in order to assess the genetic heterogeneity within Poland, investigate the genetic relationships with other European populations and provide a population-specific reference database for anthropological and forensic studies. Nine Y-chromosomal microsatellites were analysed in a total of 919 unrelated males from six regions of Poland and in 1,273 male individuals from nine other European populations. AMOVA revealed that all of the molecular variation in the Polish dataset is due to variation within populations, and no variation was detected among populations of different regions of Poland. However, in the non-Polish European dataset 9.3% (P<0.0001) of the total variation was due to differences among populations. Consequently, differences in RST-values between all possible pairs of Polish populations were not statistically significant, whereas significant differences were observed in nearly all comparisons of Polish and non-Polish European populations. Phylogenetic analyses demonstrated tight clustering of Polish populations separated from non-Polish groups. Population clustering based on Y-STR haplotypes generally correlates well with the geography and history of the region. Thus, our data are consistent with the assumption of homogeneity of present-day paternal lineages within Poland and their distinctiveness from other parts of Europe, at least in respect to their Y-STR haplotypes. Electronic supplementary material to this paper can be obtained by using the Springer LINK server located at http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00439-002-0728-0.


...

Population samples from Germany and Russia also showed similarities to Polish populations, with relatively small RST-values on pairwise comparisons (0.0176-0.097). It is noteworthy that all but one of the comparisons between the six Polish populations and the Russians revealed statistically non-significant differences (0.05

0.001). These genetic similarities are most probably a result of the common Slavic origin. On the other hand, small genetic distances between all of the Polish-German population pairs were statistically significant (P<0.0001), which might reflect the different background of Slavic-speaking and German-speaking populations. The significant differences revealed between Polish and German samples are especially striking, since the two populations have had close contact during the last millennium and both have inhabited the territory of present-day Poland. This demonstrates a continuous lack of admixture between Germans and Poles, most probably for social, religious and cultural reasons. Genetic difference between Germans and Poles have been reported previously, based on a 1-bp deletion at the Y-chromosomal marker M17 (haplotype Eu19; Semino et al. 2000), which has a high frequency in Poles (56%) but a much lower frequency in Germans (6%). However, other studies, using the Y-SNP marker SRY-1532b (synonym SRY 10831b, haplogroup 3), which characterises basically the same Y chromosome lineage (Tyler-Smith 1999; Wheale et al. 2001; The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), have found a much higher frequency of ~30% in larger samples from Germany (M. Kayser, unpublished data; Rosser et al. 2000; Zerjal et al. 1999), which is still only about half the frequency in Poland

I thought this abstract is of some importance to Polak.


Thank you Frans, that's an interesting article. It basically says that in terms of the Y-chromosome, we Poles are still very Slavic.

But mtDNA tells a different story. It actually indicates that Poles are closely related to Germans and Austrians.

"mtDNA and Slavic Ethnogenesis
Russian Journal of Genetics 37 (12): 1437-1443, December 2001
Differentiation and Genetic Position of Slavs among Eurasian Ethnic Groups as Inferred from Variation in Mitochondrial DNA
B. A. Malyarchuk
The distribution of identical and similar (phylogenetically related) types of hypervariable segment 1 (HVS1) of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) was studied in human populations belonging to three Slavonic groups and nine ethnogeographic groups of Eurasia (total sample size 2772 people). The results testified to a common origin of West, South, and East Slavs and revealed a central place of West Slavs among all Slavonic ethnic groups. Mixing was shown to play a substantial role in the formation of specific features of all three Slavonic gene pools. The mitochondrial gene pools of the Slavonic ethnic groups proved to preserve features suggesting a common ancestor for these and South European populations (especially those of the Balkan Peninsula).
...
(2) West Slavs occupy the central position among all
Slavonic ethnic groups. The West Slavonic gene pool
has the maximum number of rare common and similar
mtDNA types as compared with the gene pools of Russians
and Bulgarians, while these two Slavonic ethnic
groups are only to an extent genetically similar to each
other.
(3) Interethnic interactions (mixing and assimilation)
have played a substantial role in the formation of
the genetic portrait of various Slavonic groups. West
Slavs show a high genetic similarity to German ethnic
groups (Germans, Austrians); Bulgarians are similar to
the ethnic groups of the Balkan Peninsula; and Russians
are similar to the Finno-Ugric ethnic groups of
Northern and Eastern Europe.
The results obtained allow the following conclusions.
(4) The gene pools of all Slavonic ethnic groups
show an appreciable similarity to the gene pools of
South European ethnic groups and especially to the ethnic
groups of the Balkan Peninsula. In addition, a substantial
fraction of rare and unique mtDNA types found
in the populations of Italy and Mediterranean islands
have analogs in the gene pools of West and East Slavs.
This testifies to a hypothesis that ancestors of modern
Slavs originally diverged from South European populations
to form an individual branch.
...
From the anthropological viewpoint, the high
genetic similarity between Russians and West Slavs can
be explained on the basis of a hypothesis that the major
anthropological type was brought to the Russian Plain
from the west and the southwest by East Slavonic ethnic
groups [21]. In addition, the above genetic data provide
evidence in favor of the concept that the genetic
features of modern Russians are determined by mixing
of Slavs and the Finno-Ugric populations of Eastern
Europe. Detection of common mtDNA types in the
gene pools of Russians and Iranians suggests an ancient
connection between Slavs and Scythian populations of
the steppe zone of Eastern Europe (which is supported
by the anthropological, linguistic, and archeological
data [1-3, 20].
...
Conclusion (4) that the Slavonic mitochondrial gene
pool is similar to that of the Balkan populations is supported
by linguistic data, as proto-Slavonic dialects are
considered connected with the southeastern group of
Indo-European dialects ([1], pp. 81-82).
...
Note also that the data on mtDNA variation in the
European populations are in general agreement with
data on polymorphism of the Y chromosome [22]. As
has been shown by now, a high similarity of the gene
pools of West and East Slavs is evident from the distribution
of paternal lines in the European populations.
First of all, this concerns the distribution of line 92R7TSRY1532A
in the Slavonic gene pools. The difference
in gene pool between individual Slavonic groups have
been attributed by their mixing with neighbors. For
instance, a high (11.6% on average) frequency of line
TatC in East Slavs can be explained by their intense
contacts with Finno-Ugric European populations,
which display the maximum (36% on average) frequency
of this marker. It is clear that a complex
approach utilizing data of molecular genetics and
humanities is necessary for further analysis of the origin
and differentiation of Slavonic ethnic groups."

Polak
Tuesday, August 5th, 2003, 01:28 PM
I have that book in my possession ;)

Please ask away at will, and I will dig up some info and quotes from it this evening... if Tronder doesn't get there before me :D

Regards,

Loki

Well yes, since you offered...I would love to know what similarities and differences there are between eastern and western Europe in terms of mtDNA haplotypes.

I would also like to know anything from that book that pertains directly to us Poles.

Cheers

Tore
Wednesday, August 6th, 2003, 10:27 PM
Here is Map showing the geographical distribution of mtDNA haplogroups.

It also shows which haplogroups are ancestral to one another.

Loki
Thursday, August 7th, 2003, 10:55 PM
Well yes, since you offered...I would love to know what similarities and differences there are between eastern and western Europe in terms of mtDNA haplotypes.

I would also like to know anything from that book that pertains directly to us Poles.

Cheers

Sorry I haven't yet returned to you guys with some info. I have been busy the past few days.

I don't like Bryan Sykes' approach very much... he sacrifices common sense for popularity... his book "Seven daughters of Eve" is designed for the normal market - for people who are not necessarily versed in history, anthropology and genetics. Thus, he is able to propagate his own agenda, and boast about how good his methods & research is, and how stupid, old and bad Luigi Cavalli-Sforza is (who is actually far his superior).

I quickly had a look... nothing really specific about Poles mentioned... this book is not very comprehensive - it lacks continuity, & jumps around with little bits of information. The majority of his book (regarding the lives of the "seven daughters") is fictional, and reads like a novel rather than a genetic document.

Regards,

Loki

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, August 7th, 2003, 11:12 PM
Sorry I haven't yet returned to you guys with some info. I have been busy the past few days.

I don't like Bryan Sykes' approach very much... he sacrifices common sense for popularity... his book "Seven daughters of Eve" is designed for the normal market - for people who are not necessarily versed in history, anthropology and genetics. Thus, he is able to propagate his own agenda, and boast about how good his methods & research is, and how stupid, old and bad Luigi Cavalli-Sforza is (who is actually far his superior).

I quickly had a look... nothing really specific about Poles mentioned... this book is not very comprehensive - it lacks continuity, & jumps around with little bits of information. The majority of his book (regarding the lives of the "seven daughters") is fictional, and reads like a novel rather than a genetic document.

Regards,

Loki

Forgive me, I am not really at home in genetics, anthropometry and physical anthropology on cranial and post-cranial features is rather my field; I have written this piece on another forum and it's based on the research and works of scholars like Biasutti, Pittard, Czekanowski and Lundman, some comments from Polak would be welcome, especially since Czekanowski seems to have believed that the basic stock of the Poles was "lapponoid", a small-set high-skulled and bysoid-headed type, relative to one side to the Lake Dwellers in the Alpine region and to the Southern Lapps; according to Nordenstreng the ancestors of this type wandered after the Last Glaciation from a refuge area in the Karpaten over central and eastern Europe, eventually reaching Denmark as well.
From the actual Alpine with his cuboid and low-vaulted head, this Lapponoid distinguishes itself by its high head, and K.F.Wolff stipulates that byrsoid forms are mainly east european of inspiration.

[I]

Frans_Jozef
Thursday, August 7th, 2003, 11:14 PM
Poland continues southwestwards the East Baltic, Gorid and Alpine-
Dinaric stretch initiating from the Czech Republic, but resorts
mainly to the Gorid race(East Alpines, high-vaulted), while East
Galicia belongs to a mix of Alpines and Dinarics, however North
Poland comprise as a appendage to a vast tract of East Baltic-Nordic
composition, resulting in higher means found for blondism, centering
in the Baltic republics and Bielorus; the boundaries between blond
and brunet territory are sharply pegged out and congruent with the
open loess forests of the north and the moorish forests southwards.
Pittard(1924) invests attention and meaning to the subbrachycephaly
and mesaticephaly of the Poles to deduce the presence of the East
baltic race and Vistulian race as the basic components of the Polish
ethnic. Brachycephaly appears to redound the eastern periphery in
abundance, while in northern direction this phenomenon in Old Poland
between the Niemen and Weichsel(Vistula) are a par with the general
means of the country. Mazuria and Podelia give a average mean of 81,8
(provinces of Souvalki, Grodno), while the highest mean recorded in
the district of Chtchoutchin(the northern province of Lomja) was
82,82.
Stanislas Lencewicz indicate the incipience of dolichocephaly once
past the Weichsel in western direction; near Warshaw a mean of 80,9
is obtained, while among the higher course of the Weichsel the means
reside alternatingly between mesati –and subbrachycephaly.
Roundheadedness diminishes from south (Stopnica: 84) to up north
(Opoczno: 81,6).
The people of Kielce, a location on the higher course of the
Weichsel, posses a short and large face, verging as a whole however
at leptoprosopy by 46% of the population, mesorhinity and
leptorhinity are equally distributed; Alpines make out 10%, but they
can't just solely be responsible for the brunet disposition in
the
region, since 85% have dark hair, however, dark eyes are pretty well
rare(11,7%).
Most research on pigmentation designate the Poles as dark-haired and
light-eyed combined with subbrachycephaly(as seen too in the Czech
Republic).
Galicia was the most brachycephalic corner of former Poland(85,3)
compared with their landfolk in the plains and promontories, here the
mean drops to 82,5.
Most Poles barely attained 162cm of body height, the Galicians
reached an average 164cm, while the height increases towards the east
and matches the Russian means. The southern portion of the country
attains the feeblest statures of the country: 161cm for the hillsides
of Lysa Gora, prolonging into Mazuria. By the Lithuanian border
stature correlates with the high means in the highlands.
New studies would reveal Great Poland with Cassubia being light
pigmentated, reducing in advancing westward till the darkest region
Schlesien is reached. The statures are here above average with 166cm
and dolichocephaly better pronounced, except in Mazuria. In Ruthenia
the cephalic indices rises to 83,9, Galicia and the mountain ranges
produce even higher means.The faces are within the realm of
mesoprosopy(84,2-85,6), the nasal index supports the moderate
broadness of the face ,indices skirting from 66,3 to 70,8.
Finally, the studies by Czekanowski and Biasutti(1967) complicate the
general picture in describing a new taxon, perhaps best explained as
an Alpine-East Baltic intermediate, although both authors dismiss
this notion.
Biasutti's <<typo carpathica>> and Czekanowski's Pre-Slavic
race
would constitute the matrix of the Polish people; a race of low
stature, stodgy build, mesocephalic and mesoprosopic, with a small,
large and concave nose and nutsbrown pigmentation of hair and eyes,
sometimes refered as the brunet counterpart of the East Baltic race.
The race here above have to be seperated from the Carpathid race from
Bertil Lundman's writings involving dinaricized Gorids,
generally
speaking of Alpine constitution in morphology, but hafted with a
prominent convex nose and moderate head size, which within the
Central European context relates to the Taurid group; the French
Alpine of the Massif Central is of similar inspiration(high
brachycephaly, CI>85!), convex noses are common too and the facial
outline, while the lateral dimensions clearly states its belonging
to the Northwest European UP group, approach the facial appearance of
Dinarics: a manifest denial to the usual flawed assumption of
locating the Alpine in its true form in the mountanious harbourings.

Polak
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 02:09 AM
Frans,


Czekanowski seems to have believed that the basic stock of the Poles was "lapponoid", a small-set high-skulled and bysoid-headed type, relative to one side to the Lake Dwellers in the Alpine region and to the Southern Lapps.

Most Poles barely attained 162cm of body height, the Galicians
reached an average 164cm, while the height increases towards the east
and matches the Russian means.


Sure, these kinds of historical studies are very interesting. But they're just historical studies. It's almost like reading a book about Nazi Germany and then assuming that most Germans today are Nazis.

So in a scientific sense, all this data is quite useless. If the small-set Lapponoid was such a major element in the population of Poland, then where has it gone? Has it gone extinct? Poles are no longer small set, with parts of the country now averaging over 180cm.

And I'm willing to bet that most of the other data is also incompatible with today.

So unless we have an updated version of these stats, we can't use any of them, because it'll just be a joke. We'll classify Poland as this and that, but it will have little in common with reality.

Tore
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 07:37 AM
I don't like Bryan Sykes' approach very much... he sacrifices common sense for popularity... his book "Seven daughters of Eve" is designed for the normal market - for people who are not necessarily versed in history, anthropology and genetics. Thus, he is able to propagate his own agenda, and boast about how good his methods & research is, and how stupid, old and bad Luigi Cavalli-Sforza is (who is actually far his superior).

The Library called me and I managed to pick up my copy today.

Much like you Loki, I was heavily disapointed with the book's lack of depth when pertaining to the actual genetic studies that were conducted.

Essentially, the chapters dealing with each haplogroup is a fictional narration of the lives that each ancestral mother may or may not have lived, thus, possessing little, if any, scientific or objective merit.

The actual data on each haplogroup is near exact of what I posted earlier in this thread, only citing the percentages that each haplogroup comprises of modern Europeans, as well as giving a vague region in which the haplogroup predominates in.

Polak
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 02:46 PM
Some European mtDNA haplogroup data (I don't like the groupings, which are highly subjective, and would prefer numbers for each nation instead...but hey):

Differentiation and Genetic Position of Slavs
among Eurasian Ethnic Groups as Inferred from Variation
in Mitochondrial DNA
B. A. Malyarchuk

Table 1.
Frequency distribution (%) of the major mtDNA groups in populations of Europe and Western Asia
Population H V HV* J T U K I W X N
Asia Minor 26.61 0.92 6.42 10.09 11.93 19.27 5.50 2.75 2.75 2.75 1.38
Iran 33.86 6.30 3.93 13.39 10.23 11.02 6.3 3.15 3.15 0.79 0
Caucasus 27.10 1.56 4.05 5.61 11.84 20.56 5.92 2.18 2.80 4.98 0.93
Balkan Peninsula 30.20 2.01 4.70 14.09 6.71 18.12 4.03 4.70 1.34 4.70 1.34
Central Mediterranean region 50.30 1.21 2.43 8.48 10.91 9.09 6.67 1.82 1.82 2.42 0.61
South Slavs 38.19 3.86 4.30 7.73 11.16 20.17 5.15 1.72 3.00 1.29 0.86
West Slavs 43.14 3.53 1.18 11.86 11.07 14.62 3.53 3.14 2.35 1.57 1.57
Central Europe 46.93 3.77 0.48 9.91 8.96 13.92 6.37 1.89 1.42 0.71 0.47
Western Europe 41.47 3.34 0.33 10.03 7.69 12.04 7.36 1.00 1.67 1.00 0.33
Baltic region 44.33 5.32 0 3.90 5.32 21.99 2.84 2.13 5.67 0.71 0.71
East Slavs 43.48 2.37 1.19 7.11 11.86 15.42 3.56 1.98 1.98 0.79 0.79
Volga–Ural region 36.90 5.36 0 10.71 12.50 10.12 2.98 2.38 0 0 0.60
Mean frequency 38.54 3.30 2.42 9.41 10.02 15.53 5.02 2.40 2.33 1.81 0.80


Table 2.
Genetic difference between the Eurasian populations
Population 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1. Asia Minor 47.54 28.61 38.30 56.61 88.61 64.82 53.90 57.58 65.31 110.8 89.88
2. Iran 0.891 60.28 30.61 47.65 49.80 37.79 29.46 30.45 41.26 54.50 56.36
3. Caucasus 0.952 0.917 49.82 87.19 161.5 108.4 84.68 98.00 118.6 149.4 145.8
4. Balkan Peninsula 0.918 0.944 0.939 50.36 58.74 47.34 38.75 34.01 46.89 77.76 103.9
5. Central Mediterranean
region
0.883 0.917 0.900 0.920 54.16 57.50 66.23 42.72 56.73 82.36 107.2
6. Central Europe 0.859 0.936 0.890 0.933 0.943 51.90 66.40 25.22 84.42 105.0 139.9
7. Western Europe 0.889 0.947 0.913 0.941 0.932 0.963 67.68 47.67 50.98 80.69 96.03
8. South Slavs 0.901 0.955 0.922 0.947 0.914 0.945 0.935 41.40 59.00 75.53 108.4
9. West Slavs 0.897 0.955 0.914 0.955 0.947 0.980 0.957 0.958 42.67 69.63 100.1
10. East Slavs 0.883 0.939 0.895 0.938 0.929 0.933 0.954 0.939 0.958 50.14 65.83
11. Baltic region 0.807 0.922 0.876 0.900 0.901 0.923 0.931 0.926 0.935 0.953 90.79
12. Volga–Ural region 0.816 0.903 0.835 0.836 0.839 0.855 0.888 0.861 0.876 0.919 0.892
Note: Values of index of similarity
I
and similarity parameter
r
are shown above and below the diagonal, respectively. Cells with
I
values
that suggest no interpopulation genetic difference (
P
> 0.05) are shadowed.


Table 3.
Frequency distribution (%) of rare common and similar mtDNA types in the Eurasian populations
Population 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1. Asia Minor 24.7 5.7 6.1 5.8 4.4 2.7 5.2 10.1 5.4 4.8 7.2 1.2
2. Iran 1.4 28.6 4.9 4.6 6.2 4.5 1.9 7.8 7.4 5.5 2.4 3.7
3. Caucasus 12.3 14.3 33.3 10.3 10.6 9.5 9.7 14.7 16.9 14.4 14.4 9.8
4. Balkan Peninsula 5.5 7.1 9.1 36.8 7.1 8.1 5.2 15.5 11.5 5.5 8.0 3.7
5. Central Mediterranean region 9.6 7.1 7.9 9.2 38.1 5.9 7.7 9.3 16.9 13.0 7.2 6.1
6. Central Europe 6.9 11.4 15.2 19.5 15.0 39.2 28.3 13.2 29.7 21.9 18.4 12.2
7. Western Europe 6.9 7.1 9.1 16.1 9.7 22.5 42.6 10.9 24.3 13.7 18.4 6.1
8. South Slavs 13.7 14.3 14.6 18.4 5.3 9.5 7.7 37.3 17.6 7.5 8.8 6.1
9. West Slavs 11.0 15.7 12.1 20.7 12.4 17.6 18.7 19.4 46.6 19.2 16.0 11.0
10. East Slavs 9.6 18.6 12.7 20.7 9.7 18.5 16.1 15.5 22.3 44.6 17.6 18.3
11. Baltic region 9.6 2.9 6.7 10.3 7.1 8.1 14.8 6.2 12.8 15.8 41.6 10.9
12. Volga–Ural region 2.7 5.7 4.9 4.6 6.2 3.6 2.6 3.9 9.5 8.9 8.0 33.0
Characterization of populations
Sample size 96 127 321 149 165 424 299 233 255 253 282 168
Total mtDNA types 73 70 165 87 113 222 155 129 148 146 125 82
Common mtDNA types 29 35 61 51 42 88 72 57 82 72 66 36
Rare common mtDNA types 15 17 38 28 30 62 49 38 57 49 42 19
Unique mtDNA types 44 35 104 36 71 134 83 72 66 74 59 46
Note: Shadowing indicates maximal frequency of rare common and similar mtDNA types in a population of the corresponding column
compared with a population in the corresponding line.



Mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians

Abstract

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence variation was examined in Poles (from the Pomerania-Kujawy region; n = 436) and Russians (from three different regions of the European part of Russia; n = 201), for which the two hypervariable segments (HVS I and HVS II) and haplogroup-specific coding region sites were analyzed. The use of mtDNA coding region RFLP analysis made it possible to distinguish parallel mutations that occurred at particular sites in the HVS I and II regions during mtDNA evolution. In total, parallel mutations were identified at 73 nucleotide sites in HVS I (17.8%) and 31 sites in HVS II (7.73%). The classification of mitochondrial haplotypes revealed the presence of all major European haplogroups, which were characterized by similar patterns of distribution in Poles and Russians. An analysis of the distribution of the control region haplotypes did not reveal any specific combinations of unique mtDNA haplotypes and their subclusters that clearly distinguish both Poles and Russians from the neighbouring European populations. The only exception is a novel subcluster U4a within subhaplogroup U4, defined by a diagnostic mutation at nucleotide position 310 in HVS II. This subcluster was found in common predominantly between Poles and Russians (at a frequency of 2.3% and 2.0%, respectively) and may therefore have a central-eastern European origin.

Frans_Jozef
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 04:12 PM
Frans,




Sure, these kinds of historical studies are very interesting. But they're just historical studies. It's almost like reading a book about Nazi Germany and then assuming that most Germans today are Nazis.

So in a scientific sense, all this data is quite useless. If the small-set Lapponoid was such a major element in the population of Poland, then where has it gone? Has it gone extinct? Poles are no longer small set, with parts of the country now averaging over 180cm.

And I'm willing to bet that most of the other data is also incompatible with today.

So unless we have an updated version of these stats, we can't use any of them, because it'll just be a joke. We'll classify Poland as this and that, but it will have little in common with reality.


Stature is highly variable anyway due to alimentary and envrionmental factors.
Czekanowski, who btw was a renowned and somewhat belligerent Polish anthropologist, may have maladdressed the actual situation.
While there has been a residual high-skulled Lapponoid type in Southern Poland, Moravia and Schlesien, the neolithic Danubian and Lengyel presence must have swarmed over them and absorbed to some degree, inducing a widening and slight paedomorphic countenance to the main Danubian stock; on the other hand, stark brachycephalisation didn't occur until the Middle Ages and in a measured rise, and like in the rest of Europe it reconverted to long-headedness about 80years ago, along with taller statures and depigmentation.
The Danubian but also the Corded variant is enough ellipsoid, with rounded and broad forehead, that a decrease of the head lenght and broadening in the hindpart could cause a similitude to a globular head, very much alike the situation in the Auvergne, while basically the dimensions are slightly reshuffled to swap over to brachycephaly.
The low height and mesorhinity of the Danubian helps to carry over an alpinoid appearance.
Unlike what you suggested in another thread, Danubians were high-faced, mostly leptene...and narrow-faced, not wide, with reecession of the cheekbones.
The high-pitched, long and aquiline which might be seen among the Poles has another origin, presumely from some taurid metal-seekers which made the Gorals to one of their vestiges; these kind of noses are dominant, the rest is seemingly in constant fluidity and result of non-compatible mixing.

Polak
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 04:26 PM
Stature is highly variable anyway due to alimentary and envrionmental factors.
Czekanowski, who btw was a renowned and somewhat belligerent Polish anthropologist, may have maladdressed the actual situation.
While there has been a residual high-skulled Lapponoid type in Southern Poland, Moravia and Schlesien, the neolithic Danubian and Lengyel presence must have swarmed over them and absorbed to some degree, inducing a widening and slight paedomorphic countenance to the main Danubian stock; on the other hand, stark brachycephalisation didn't occur until the Middle Ages and in a measured rise, and like in the rest of Europe it reconverted to long-headedness about 80years ago, along with taller statures and depigmentation.
The Danubian but also the Corded variant is enough ellipsoid, with rounded and broad forehead, that a decrease of the head lenght and broadening in the hindpart could cause a similitude to a globular head, very much alike the situation in the Auvergne, while basically the dimensions are slightly reshuffled to swap over to brachycephaly.
The low height and mesorhinity of the Danubian helps to carry over an alpinoid appearance.
Unlike what you suggested in another thread, Danubians were high-faced, mostly leptene...and narrow-faced, not wide, with reecession of the cheekbones.
The high-pitched, long and aquiline which might be seen among the Poles has another origin, presumely from some taurid metal-seekers which made the Gorals to one of their vestiges; these kind of noses are dominant, the rest is seemingly in constant fluidity and result of non-compatible mixing.


Yeah, I would agree with most of that.

I think natural and social selection, as well as environmental factors have played a mjor role in the changing look of the Polish population.

But that's why it's necessary to check out the latest data. From my experience, it's not only the stature that has changed in the last two generations.

In the other thread I meant to say that Neo-Danubians had to have wide cheekbones and short faces, but somehoe I slipped Danubians in there as well. Oh well.

Tore
Friday, August 8th, 2003, 07:44 PM
Some European mtDNA haplogroup data (I don't like the groupings, which are highly subjective, and would prefer numbers for each nation instead...but hey):

Thanks Polak!

I have been looking for data along these lines for quite some time.

Your right though, it would be easier to interpret had the numbers for each individual nation been present as a region such as 'Western Europe', for example, is a very vague area.

Tore
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 05:00 AM
As mentioned earlier, I am currently reading The Seven Daughter's of Eve, so I will post the minimal information that Sykes provides.

Haplogroup U

% of Europeans- 11
Most Common in- Western Britain and Scandinavia

Haplogroup X

% of Europeans- 6 (1% of Native Americans in addtion)
Most Common in- First Branch is found in Eastern Europe & the other two branches are found in Central and Western Europe.

Haplogroup H

% of Europeans-47
Most Common in- N/A (Sykes writes "all over Europe")

Haplogroup V

% of Europeans -5
Most Common in- Northern Scandinavia (Saami)

Haplogroup T

% of Europeans -9%
Most Common in -Western Britain, Ireland, and Western Mediterranean

Haplogroup K

% of Europeans - 6%
Most common in- Mediterranean, yet widespread in distribution

Haplogroup J

% of Europeans - 17%
Most Common in- First Branch is found in Spain, Portugal, Britain (Cornwall), W. Scotland. Second is found in Northern and Central Europe in areas of Neolithic influence.

Polak
Tuesday, August 12th, 2003, 01:29 PM
As mentioned earlier, I am currently reading The Seven Daughter's of Eve, so I will post the minimal information that Sykes provides.

Haplogroup U

% of Europeans- 11
Most Common in- Western Britain and Scandinavia

Haplogroup X

% of Europeans- 6 (1% of Native Americans in addtion)
Most Common in- First Branch is found in Eastern Europe & the other two branches are found in Central and Western Europe.

Haplogroup H

% of Europeans-47
Most Common in- N/A (Sykes writes "all over Europe")

Haplogroup V

% of Europeans -5
Most Common in- Northern Scandinavia (Saami)

Haplogroup T

% of Europeans -9%
Most Common in -Western Britain, Ireland, and Western Mediterranean

Haplogroup K

% of Europeans - 6%
Most common in- Mediterranean, yet widespread in distribution

Haplogroup J

% of Europeans - 17%
Most Common in- First Branch is found in Spain, Portugal, Britain (Cornwall), W. Scotland. Second is found in Northern and Central Europe in areas of Neolithic influence.


Thanks Tronder.

Hmm...it would be good to have more.

I'll look into this whole haplotype MtDNA business and will get back to you shortly...

Tore
Wednesday, August 13th, 2003, 12:45 AM
Haplogroup U

Assuming that Western Britain is a misprint, and that Sykes actually means Eastern Britain ( I know it sounds rather bold, yet how can 3 of the 7 haplogroups be most common in Western Britain?), the haplogroup could very well be indicative of Germanic/Nordic ancestry.

However, with the mutation rate being far and away the oldest (45 000 years ago), this appears unlikely, as it suggests the haplogroup has an Upper Paleolithic connection.

Haplogroup X

I don't even know where to start here....

Perhaps a genetic remnant of the ancient Caucasoid Cro-Magnon type that migrated across the Bering Straight, leaving behind the controversial Kennewick Man.

Haplogroup H

Sykes is of no use here...

Haplogroup V

Sykes pretty much tells us what we are trying to figure out here, in that the gene marker is concentrated mainly among the Lapps.

However, if the gene marker is found among 5% of today's Europeans, it cannot be exclusive to the Saami, who number only 32 000.

Haplogroup T

Atlanto-Mediterranean, I am almost certain.

Haplogroup K

Looking at the information Polak provided, K is most common in Western Europe, Central Europe, and the Central Mediterranean.

Perhaps K is an Alpine gene marker?

Haplogroup J

A Neolithic Gene Marker. The First Branch correlates with the migration of Mediterranean peoples, the second seems to be Danubian/Nordic.

Triglav
Wednesday, September 21st, 2005, 11:36 PM
Recommendable: https://www5.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

lei.talk
Thursday, September 22nd, 2005, 01:04 AM
tuddorsped (http://www.forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=1018) started a thread (http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=9387) with a similar map (http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/).

both are interesting.