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Death and the Sun
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 02:32 PM
And more importantly;

Is it worth it trying to be one?

All my life, as long as I can remember, I've tried to a "good" person. I've never made any conscious decisions about it, it just seemed to come naturally.

I'm a polite, helpful person. I'm always honest and fair. I try to be reliable, responsible and always try to do my job well. I'm a good listener, and I take a real interest in the problems of those next to me, and make a genuine effort to help them. In short, I'm the type of guy women often say they are looking for, but never seem to be interested in in reality.

Summing up my life until now, it's more than obvious to me that trying to be good has done me much more harm than good. It's set me back often in my academic life, constantly in my professional life, many times in my dealings with other men and almost always in my dealings with women.

The other night I had a discussion with someone about what it means to be a good person, or to not be one. The Finnish language makes a distinction in people who are the opposite of good people: it divides them in people who are evil, and those who are simply weak, selfish and lazy. (paha ihminen vs. huono ihminen)

As being a good person is so painfully obviously not worth it, what should we strive to be? Evil; or simply selfish and lazy?

Zyklop
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 03:19 PM
As being a good person is so painfully obviously not worth it, what should we strive to be? Evil; or simply selfish and lazy? Of course not. Anyone can give in, that´s no challenge. But staying true to your ideals is very much so.


And such is always the nature of weak men: they lose themselves on their way. And at last asketh their weariness: "Why did we ever go on the way? All is indifferent!"

TO THEM soundeth it pleasant to have preached in their ears: "Nothing is worth while! Ye shall not will!" That, however, is a sermon for slavery.

Also sprach Zarathustra - Friedrich Nietzsche

Ewergrin
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 04:07 PM
And more importantly;

Is it worth it trying to be one?
I firmly believe that it is. Good will towards your kith and kin will always be rewarded in the end.


All my life, as long as I can remember, I've tried to a "good" person. I've never made any conscious decisions about it, it just seemed to come naturally.
Then naturally you are a good person.


I'm a polite, helpful person. I'm always honest and fair. I try to be reliable, responsible and always try to do my job well. I'm a good listener, and I take a real interest in the problems of those next to me, and make a genuine effort to help them. In short, I'm the type of guy women often say they are looking for, but never seem to be interested in in reality.
Women often do that. I am the same way, and dealt with the same problem for many years, even during the courtship of my wife in our adolescence. IN the end, you will find a woman who appreciates your good nature, and she will reciprocate. Or as the case may be, you may find someone who you fall in love with, and it may take a bit of work to show her just how "good" you really are.


Summing up my life until now, it's more than obvious to me that trying to be good has done me much more harm than good. It's set me back often in my academic life, constantly in my professional life, many times in my dealings with other men and almost always in my dealings with women. Can you expand upon that? What things have happened? It's not uncommon to feel like the things you do are in vain. Modern society is rather cut throat, especially in the workplace. Still, good deeds are never unrewarded.


As being a good person is so painfully obviously not worth it
I've yet to see a valid reason to support such a statement.

Lundi
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 04:12 PM
Wow when I read that I felt it was describing my own personality, during the last few days I’ve been bit under the weather for the same reason, I’ve been getting the feeling that maybe people have been using me for my generosity and been walking all over me. I have though come to the conclusion that I shouldn’t try to change who I am, I should however try to be more careful in the future, but at the end of the day being kind to my kin is what brings me the most joy out of life.

Arcturus
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 04:47 PM
Ingratitude is the wage of the world. Goodness is its own reward. No good deed goes unpunished. Etc. ad nauseum.


Edit: like most old sayings, i guess there's truth behind it. In some form.

Frostwood
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 05:31 PM
I have the tendency to be a bit selfish though not overtly so, not at all, but generally polite. I have noticed that one does not really gain in any way from being "evil" and rude, so it's rather sensible to be polite unless one deliberately wishes to be scorned. Anyway, there are people with whom I would be not so polite, as they wouldn't deserve it in my view. Nobody however gets unpolite treatment from me in the first encounter.

People who are indifferent on how they act, are either stupid, apathetic or both. I'd reckon they slip to mindless hedonism and worship of the self when they lose their convictions, and thus lose any sight beyond their nosetips, effectively becoming very narcissistic, escaping reality under will into the void of themselves. What use are opinions if there is no will behind them?

So, those were my reflections on the issue. A d***head maybe, but an honest one (not questioning your honesty though).

Erlingr Hárbarđarson
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:18 PM
I say slaughter the ones in your way and die for the ones behind you. Being a good person does not equate to much, if you do not have the capacity to be a bad person. Destroy. Erect. Grow. This application to life can birth a legacy.

Nightmare_Gbg
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:45 PM
Being good and helpfull just gets you used.I'm opting for evil.
And great answer Erlingr.

Triglav
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 07:44 PM
I’ve been getting the feeling that maybe people have been using me for my generosity and been walking all over me. I have though come to the conclusion that I shouldn’t try to change who I am, I should however try to be more careful in the future

Yeah, to cut a long story short, just be careful. And do some wieghtlifting and martial arts - that'll teach people to mess with you.

As for women, you can, in theory, remain "nice" as long as you never take crap from them. If she's doesn't live up to your standards (i.e. abusing you and taking advantage of your honesty), ditch her immediately. It might be difficult at first, but you'll grow a thick skin eventually.


And more importantly;

Is it worth it trying to be one?

Absolutely. Remain true to your principles, otherwise you're a p***y.


In short, I'm the type of guy women often say they are looking for, but never seem to be interested in in reality.

Yeah, most women (I repeat: I said MOST WOMEN before I get crucified by the members of the fair sex) can't articulate what they are looking for in a man. They think they want what those Disney movies taught them (basically what you described), but nature has, for the most part, hard-wired them to fall for "alpha males", and your classical "jerk" is much closer to that abstraction than a "nice guy" (which is analogous to most men fawning over "the prettiest woman").

Blood_Axis
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 12:09 AM
Being truthful, honest, useful and loyal to your own people is a good start.

We live in times that are so messed up, that the self-explanatory is considered to be a luxury...

Nordhammer
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:04 AM
Goodness can only thrive in a mutually beneficial relationship. Don't let people use you. Respect yourself or no one else will. There are predators and there are prey, don't be the prey.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:08 AM
Yeah, most women (I repeat: I said MOST WOMEN before I get crucified by the members of the fair sex) can't articulate what they are looking for in a man. They think they want what those Disney movies taught them (basically what you described), but nature has, for the most part, hard-wired them to fall for "alpha males", and your classical "jerk" is much closer to that abstraction than a "nice guy" (which is analogous to most men fawning over "the prettiest woman").

Well now, Gorostan, is that a little bit of misogyny I detect? I never thought I'd see the day!

Triglav
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:53 AM
Well now, Gorostan, is that a little bit of misogyny I detect? I never thought I'd see the day!
LOL, that's no misogyny. I'm even a lot more critical of my own gender, but every man is or should be a bit of a misogynist. :P Not least for safety reasons. ;)

PS: Nice signature. Love it. :D

Death and the Sun
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 09:35 AM
Btw, I didn't intend this thread to go in the "are all women inherently evil" direction. It seems to me that about 99% of people, men and women, will eventually let you down if you give them the chance. A person's gender affects it only to the extent that I, for certain reasons that should be obvious, am somewhat more familiar with the ways men f--k people over, and therefore less prone to falling for them.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:48 PM
LOL, that's no misogyny. I'm even a lot more critical of my own gender, but every man is or should be a bit of a misogynist. :P Not least for safety reasons. ;)

PS: Nice signature. Love it. :D

I agree. A little bit of misogyny learned from prior experiences does counterbalance a man's innate romantic blindness which may lead him into the clutches of the beast. :) This is especially true for any American man who has suffered from the court system which is by far in the favor of the woman, and most women have not a hesitation to exert every bit of power from it to destroy the man.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:58 PM
Btw, I didn't intend this thread to go in the "are all women inherently evil" direction.

Did it? Or is that a Freudian slip on your part? ;)


It seems to me that about 99% of people, men and women, will eventually let you down if you give them the chance. A person's gender affects it only to the extent that I, for certain reasons that should be obvious, am somewhat more familiar with the ways men f--k people over, and therefore less prone to falling for them.

There is no doubt men commit more violent crime, and especially the man's crimes are much more incredible the more primitive the society, as the female is kept as a slave. But in a civilized society where woman has equal rights and freedoms, actually as it is now, they have more rights, special rights, and freedoms, the female's misbehavior comes to the fore. The female is more devious and subtle, the man more open and upfront. The honest man, the gentleman, must tread with caution, for all things are not as they appear.

Arcturus
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 02:58 PM
I have only two words: prenuptial agreement.

Erlingr Hárbarđarson
Tuesday, August 23rd, 2005, 05:09 PM
I have only two words: prenuptial agreement.

I have only one: off-topic. :D

HIM
Friday, August 26th, 2005, 04:11 AM
And more importantly;

Is it worth it trying to be one?

I used to think so. But sometimes it just doesn't seem to be worth the effort.


All my life, as long as I can remember, I've tried to a "good" person. I've never made any conscious decisions about it, it just seemed to come naturally.

Same with me. It's hard for me to be mean to people.


I'm a polite, helpful person. I'm always honest and fair. I try to be reliable, responsible and always try to do my job well. I'm a good listener, and I take a real interest in the problems of those next to me, and make a genuine effort to help them. In short, I'm the type of guy women often say they are looking for, but never seem to be interested in in reality.

Yes, this gets me stuck in the "friend zone" ALL the time! It has become quite frusturating. :frown: What's worse is that many of my girl friends come to me to talk about their problems as I am always a good listener. But it is quite aggrevating when they go on about how all the guys they date are jerks and they just cannot find a decent guy. :rolleyes:


Summing up my life until now, it's more than obvious to me that trying to be good has done me much more harm than good. It's set me back often in my academic life, constantly in my professional life, many times in my dealings with other men and almost always in my dealings with women.

Happens to me a lot too. Lately I've been having trouble with people borrowing things from me and never returning them. Just recently I loaned a friend $450 to buy a motorcycle. He promised to pay me back when he got paid, but didn't end up paying me all the money for almost two months after much persistance on my part. I also went out of my way on numerous occasions to drive him to pick up his motorcycle a couple times when he had left it somewhere and I also helped him pack when he moved back to his hometown in central Missouri. However I noticed that he took a DVD that I had loaned him. I called him asking for him to send it to me and he told me that he'd "get to it when he gets to it." At that point I flipped out and he told me that I needed to "calm down." :confused:


The other night I had a discussion with someone about what it means to be a good person, or to not be one. The Finnish language makes a distinction in people who are the opposite of good people: it divides them in people who are evil, and those who are simply weak, selfish and lazy. (paha ihminen vs. huono ihminen)

As being a good person is so painfully obviously not worth it, what should we strive to be? Evil; or simply selfish and lazy?

Being evil does have its perks, but I prefer to be a good person. That is what is in my nature and I do not wish to change the way I act even though many people do not seem to have an appreciation for kindness. However, I have learned not to let people walk all over me. When I notice that someone is doing this, I cease to associate with the person. I don't like having negative people around me that are not deserving of any respect.

lei.talk
Sunday, August 28th, 2005, 01:07 AM
Yes, this gets me stuck in the "friend zone" ALL the time!i went to high school with a tubby kid
who was mockingly called "bullet" buckman,
because he was too lardy
to do any thing fast enough.

a year or so after graduation,
a tall bronzed man
with broad shoulders, a deep chest
and long muscular limbs,
jogged across the street to me
and stuck his hand out
to shake mine.

he was wearing only corduroy shorts.
i searched his sharply chiseled face
with it's precise van dyke
and the flowing blonde hair
for some thing recognisable.

he laughed in a theatrically deep voice,
grabbed my hand and pumped it vigorously.
"it's me - buckman."

in befuddlement, i spent the rest of the day
allowing him to show-off.
it was a lesson.

he was getting even.
he had over-compensated.
it was like Marius' nephew among the senators' wives.

every woman that we encountered
(the grocery-store, laundery-mat, post-office, side-walk),
his spine would straighten, his chest deepen
- as did his voice - and he would beam
i-want-to-have-sex-with-you like a "tractor-beam".

the reactions varied from
the-fact-that-you-find-me-attractive-makes-me-hate-my-self,
all the way to
oh-my-god-how-did-you-know-i-am-ovulating-today.

regardless of the reaction,
he offered his card
bearing his first name and his telephone number:
"call me. any time. i want to get together."
and wasted no more time on conversation.

buckman's behavior was extremely effective
and i did learn a valuable lesson from it.

lei.talk
Monday, September 5th, 2005, 01:49 AM
...trying to be good has done me much more harm than good.
It's set me back often in my academic life,
constantly in my professional life,
many times in my dealings with other men
and almost always in my dealings with women.

The Finnish language makes a distinction in people
who are the opposite of good people:
it divides them in people who are evil,
and those who are simply weak, selfish and lazy.neurology and zoology will take you a long way
toward understanding human behavior,

but there is no substitute for your own abstractions
of the principles of human behavior
derived from thousands of personal interactions.

i spent five to fifteen minutes
with dozens of new persons
each day for decades
(in situations that i controlled).

most of us do not have those advantages
and are injured in our personal interactions
long before we understand why.

book-learning can be of some help,
especially by providing a frame-work
for your empirical data.

this book: "personality types" (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/books/Books_PT.asp) by richard riso (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/bios.asp) is a good start.

it was given to me
as a refutation of my ideas
by some one that was very frustrated
with how "judgemental" i am.

i did not find any serious disagreement with content,
only with the authors' personal perspectives.

there are (http://www.9types.com/homepage.actual.html) many (http://www.enneagramcentral.com/eenstudy.htm) different (http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneagram.html#intro) perspectives (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/) on this system (http://www.ptypes.com/).

before you buy the book,
i recommend that you read
all of the (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0395798671/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-4663149-4719945?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155) customer's (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books-intl-de/0395798671/customer-reviews/qid=1125879676/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_10_6/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/302-1485730-4359264) comments (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/books/0395798671/customer-reviews/qid=1125879224/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/702-0214808-1948064) that you can find.

i do not think you will find human personalities enigmatic
after finishing this book.

SouthernBoy
Monday, September 5th, 2005, 02:34 AM
i do not think you will find human personalities enigmatic after finishing this book. I am disappointed to say that I was in denial when I first read a study that proposed only three personality types (and combinations thereof): narcissistic, aggressive, and shy, if I am remebering correctly. I think that the individualistic ideals that were impressed upon me from a young age had something to with this.

Sheldon's body and personality types make for an interesting read. :)

Blondie
Friday, September 16th, 2005, 01:09 AM
Yes, I believe it is worth trying to be a good person committing acts of kindness everywhere. I try to be that person. We're all not perfect, but most of us can try to be kinder to each other. :)