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View Full Version : Are Alpinids "Manifestly Non-Nordish"?



Istaevones
Tuesday, May 17th, 2005, 07:50 AM
and if so, why aren't they excluded from The Northern European forum? Note: this is not my personal suggestion but an honest inquiry into the philosophy of the forum. Why exactly are Alpinids treated with so much greater tolerance than southerly Europids?

My guess: Mediterraneans, Dinarics, and the like are obviously excluded from the Northern European forum because of their distance from northern Europe and its folk but with central European types it's a trickier question and not just because of geographical proximity. The primary reason, it seems, is that the Alpine racial type and its offshoots have at least since modern times been quite strongly associated with the central Germanic tribes/nations (current-day Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, and other formerly Germanic territory) if not in the pure sense then at least in some solution with Nordish elements.

Agrippa
Tuesday, May 17th, 2005, 05:35 PM
I think one of the main problems many here have with Mediterranids is the fluent border in the South.

Alpinids aren't a homogeneous block, they are just a tendency, Alpinisation can happen on every Cromagnoid base in my opinion, and it can occur again even after years of Nordid dominance if just a small percentage of the necessary genes is there.

F.e. in certain regions of Southern Germany a Nordid dominance was established more than once, but everytime when things settled down and selection of groups was substituted by individual selection through hunger, more children, constant work and compliant behaviour, the number of Alpinoid types rose. But that Alpinoids aren't the same as those in Central France, the classical Alpinoids, they have longer and bigger skulls, are heavier build and have higher frequencies of depigmentation. Its no simple "Subnordic" mix, its the selection of certain features, pigmentation was in this environment rather irrelevant or light colors even advantageous, but the Nordid type was weaker in the low energy farmer competition for just more children.
Similar things happened in other regions and in Eastern Europe with the Baltisation. Its no reemergance of complete Lappids, but just a tendency of favouring certain features of them, once almost completely disappeared, because the favoured trend in such stable farmer societies with low energy and the need for compliant behaviour and the main biological success through reproduction means infantilisation and gracilisation.

In the Bronce Age or during the early Germanic expansion this rules were abrogated because the classic European selection for warrior bands, mobile farmer-herder warriors was in charge, but even if just minimal numbers survived, or even if none would have survived, the Cromagnoid or rest-Alpinoid genes would lead in a stable farmer society to brachycephalisation and infantilisation like you can see it in the process of Alpinisation and Baltisation.

Similar things happened elsewhere too, compare North American Indianids, Silvids in particular, with the stable farmer group of Zentralids, the Istmid Mayas in particular. They are hyperbrachycephalic and brachymorphic.

So its the question if you even can lump all Alpinoids together, thats difficult with Mediterranids either, but even more difficult with them since there are mainly different grades of Alpinisation, especially in the Nordic countries.
But the typical Alpinids exist, they survived every wave of other conquerors quite well, but especially in Germany Alpinisation is more of a trend over the centuries than surviving population from the early ages.

So the phenotype "Alpinoid" is oftentimes nothing but a selection of set of certain features in a mixed populations, thats one of the reasons why they dont appear as something genetically different all the time, since they share basically the same genome as the other types of the regions in question, just those allels are different.

Kalevi
Tuesday, May 17th, 2005, 11:38 PM
That's interesting..

Do you have any idea what causes "nordicization", then? I have thought that it could have something to do with sea based livelihood - judging from it's spreadedness in the northwestern European shores.

Agrippa
Wednesday, May 18th, 2005, 12:10 AM
In my opinion Nordids are the warriors, herders and mobile farmers of the flat, dark land, Atlantomediterranids of the lighter and sea area, Dinarids of the hills, mountains and valleys. There is oftentimes a difference where some types live today and where they lived once. F.e. Australids had the biggest settlements in areas which are now inhabited by European people. North Western Europe is strongly Nordid, but that doesnt mean that Nordid types must have evolved there or only there (difference between analogous specialisation and same source).

They (Nordid, Mediterranid, Dinarid) are all three more gracile and more leptomorphic than the classical hunter-gatherers of the North, the Cromagnids (Dalofaelid, Palaeatlantid), with which they seem to have compete for the New (Neolithic). (I dont mean they fought each other, but biologically speaking, the Neolithicum was a serious set back for Cromagnid forms because of a new social and selective regime)
They are partly a compromise (less muscles, less energy, but still long range, even longer range, good endurance etc.) physically, good for long distances and fast moving both in every day life and war.
Their mental characteristics are (somewhat) different either, the schizothym tendency is stronger than in the other specialisations (athletic build/mesosom H-G of the North). Thats good for group action, for planning, for sacrifice of the individual for the clan. Thats different from the old H-G groups, fights became more important and were of a different, more sophisticated kind.

Its interesting, but how often did Alpinids conquer a land on their own and in a compact group? They are rather a social specialisation which is already the forerunner of modern mass societies.
Whenever Nordids, Mediterranids and Dinarids conquered, they survived and stood were they are if you want so. They fought, but rather in solution, not as the dominant factor.

One interesting example was found in the Ukraine, but you can see similar things elsewhere, the herder group of the same region was taller, more rangy and robust than the shorter, more gracile and less rangy (especially femoral) farmers.
Now the herders had less children, made birth control (sometimes infanticide) and need a longer time to grow up.
Thats more input, but for a fighting mobile group its worth to invest more, in a stable farmer group a compliant and less investment is "successful". That doesnt mean that they kill the other group (thats seldom the most important factor), in fact they even need it, but sooner or later they outflanked with their higher birth rates. Earlier pregnancy, higher reproductive rates, can survive hunger and malnutrition better, less risky behaviour, more compliant and emotional-social = Alpinisation and Baltisation.

Thanks to "Liquid Len" (from Dodona) I have this drawings about the various body forms, its obvious which occur more often in Nordids, most often is said to be the virile form, in Mediterranids rather the juvenile and Dinarids mature, though thats not exclusive and you see that these three "full grown leptomorphic" variants are much closer to each other than to the others:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4688&stc=1

Compare with Nordid types:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4698&stc=1
"Liquid Len" wrote:

For Europid types applies:

Nordics: Virile
gracile Mediterraneans: Juvenile
Eastern Alpinids and East Baltics: Boreal
Western Alpinids: more Infantile-Boreal
Dinarics: Mature
Berids: Infantile

note: not every type fits into an ontogenetic scheme, e.g. the boreal or some non-europid types.
The various types are not exclusive to one racial or subracial type. For examlple, the northern American plain Indians were/are also mature, like Dinarics or Caucasus-people. The boreal type is also typical for Mongolians and central Asians etc.

The 2nd image is about growth in general in a rather leptomorphic race, but the last stadium must not be reached, many races stop and stay rather infantile = paedomorphic. (like some Palaemongolids, Bambutids etc.)
Especially in the tropical region, rather paedomorphic and infantile-primitive combination occur:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4689&stc=1

Compare Europid Indids with protomorphic Weddids in picture 3:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4690&stc=1

The best age for the Nordid (or at least anatomically Nordoid types) was the Bronze Age. In this period of expansion, movement and war the Nordoid specialisation and associated variants won biologically. There is the question how Nordid success might be related to Indoeuropean expansion and the horse. In the far East the tragedy began when other types used the horse and associated, especially war-, techniques as well.
The Tungid type for example is an extreme cold adaptation, his short legs and short range are, though he is physically strong, rather disadvantageous intraspecifically, but on the horse this was no longer a problem. His new legs was the horse.
Just one example of success and following retreat with heavy losses mainly because of technological transfer.

Agrippa
Wednesday, May 18th, 2005, 01:25 AM
I forgot something, namely the climatic change after the last Ice Age. During the cold period the most European regions were inhabited by rather Cromagnoid types, Cromagnid types dominated in many parts of the cold Eurasia, in the East, in the extreme cold, the Mongolids came up out of them.
But in the West they just become more progressive Europid Cromagnids - more volume, strong-robust, good for surviving that H-G regime.

In the warmer climate the leptomorphic types occured more often. About 10.000 years ago the climate became warmer and more stable, so agriculture was possible and the Northern regions became more interesting for Southern types on the one hand, and the selective regime changed (even before the introduction of agriculture and domesticated animals in the North) in the North.
H-G, extreme type, progressive but robust before the climatic change:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4697&stc=1

Compare with the pure, extreme Nordid type:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4261

In the Mesolithikum you can already see more leptomorphic (classic) Nordoid types:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4694&stc=1

Southern influenced Neolithics:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4693&stc=1

Some standard types of the Neolithicum:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4696&stc=1

Relative homogeneous forms, big related clusters of the late Neolithicum (Corded types very common):
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4695&stc=1