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Peeps
Sunday, May 1st, 2005, 10:11 PM
http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/home.htm

"Is the 49th parallel an unmalleable line, set for all time to be the divider between two parallel worlds? Just why do the United States stop at an arbitrary line? Are we destined to be one nation under two political entities? Is what differentiates our two countries greater than what we share in common? As Europe unites, will North America stagnate and fall behind, squabbling over trivial differences? Are Canadians and Americans really so different? Would Canada stand to gain or lose in being part of a larger group of united States? Would the United States gain or lose from a United North America without borders?"

:scratch:

Arcturus
Sunday, May 1st, 2005, 10:13 PM
Only way I can se a "unification" is if one conquers the other... I personally couldn't care less :D

Soten
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 04:35 AM
Lately, I have heard a lot of talk about people (albeit a tiny minority) who want to join Canadian provinces into The United States or for that matter make an entirely new system that combines the two.

I believe there is an organization out there somewhere trying to accomplish this goal. More frequently I hear about the Quebec problem and how if Quebec does secede from Canada than other provinces, specifically the far Western ones, may want to seek union with the States. They would want this mostly because Quebec is such a large segment of Canada and they would need a stronger entity to join up with unless they want to remain rather isolated.

I have a feeling that most people on the board may be against such a merger in any event and I personally cannot say which way I would fall on the issue...if it's even plausible. However, I do think that given the fact that both countries are New World colonial outposts of Great Britain with a strong Anglo-culture it is atleast worth thinking about if only for the sake of gaining a consensus on the matter. Moreover, it would be interesting to explore the future possibilities, if any, of having a monocultural, that is Anglo-cultural, North American State.

I personally think there are some things that Canadians and Americans have in common...maybe I'm wrong. Most likely I am stuck (longing for?) an older, simpler time. I do, of course, see that there are tons of problems with the suggestion.

So, let me know your thoughts on the matter. Pros, cons, issues, problems, outright disgust at the whole idea, possibilities for preserving Germanic culture (in this case Anglo-American-Canadian...if there even is a commonality between them).

Next World
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 04:49 AM
Well, what I'm told about this anticipated "merger" is that it would be Canada-USA-Mexico, which I'm totally not "cool" with.

The only real reason I'd want to annex part of Canada to the US, would be because it really bothers me that the main body of Alaska is not contiguous to the rest of the Nation, even though it could be contiguous without draining the ocean (unlike Hawaii).

I wouldn't want to live by Canadian laws, though, that's for sure. Not that ours are so much better. And if we don't get Quebec as part of Canada, I'm not sure I want it at all. :p

Soten
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 04:59 AM
I am certainly against any sort of USA-CANADA-MEXICO merger...but i was asking more about the possibility of a merger between Canada and the US.

Freydis
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 05:40 AM
I am against such a merger because the USA would bring nothing to it. Canada has abundant natural resources. USA is running out.

Québec has had two referenda on the subejct of leaving Canada. Both lost.

Next World
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 05:52 AM
I am certainly against any sort of USA-CANADA-MEXICO merger...but i was asking more about the possibility of a merger between Canada and the US.Well, I never heard of a Canada-US merger, only the North American Union.

I think the US and Canada are fine being separate right now. It's just that Alaska thing that bugs me.

If the US and Canada did merge, it would take a long time. There'd be a huge cultural issue, otherwise. I think the general public would be just as opposed to making Canada a part of the states or vice versa as they are to the 51st state being Puerto Rico thing. The American perception of Canada in a few words is: North, Hockey, Maple Syrup, Aye, Blame (South Park). People tend to have a very bad impression of Canada with no real reason.

Soten
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 06:39 AM
I don't think that Americans (that I know of) have a very bad image of Canada at all. Sure Americans poke fun at Canadians but its light-hearted. I happen to know many people that love Canada. My mother, for instance, refuses to go anywhere outside the country unless its Canada or England. And lots of friends of mine used to say they were gonna leave and go live in Canada.

Besides that, how intense do you think the "clash of cultures" would be? I don't think Canadian culture would be too radically different from American culture and for that matter Southern culture is probably more different than New England culture for instance. The same for the Plains states, Texas, California, and I am sure (leaving out Quebec for the time being) that Canada has many different cultural flavours thoughout its provinces.

Freydis
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 04:00 PM
There are many differences, especially in legal systems and how municipalities are set up, et cetera. These would have to be sorted out. But I doubt there will be warm reception, despite supposed "cultural similiarities". All Canadians I've spoken with have seen themselves as completely and totally different from Americans. They hate being equated with them.

Ĉmeric
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 04:44 PM
I would be in favor of it, but only if it was structure on the US as it was before the Civil War. More like the modern Swiss Confederation, where the current system was adopted in 1849 & based on the then existing model of the United States. Perhaps this Confederation could include Australia, New Zealand & Britian as a Anglosphere Confederation. But first we would have to sort out some domestic issues in the US, like the repatriaiton of the Latino population & maybe the resettlement of the US Negroes to the Caribbean or West Africa.


I am against such a merger because the USA would bring nothing to it. Canada has abundant natural resources. USA is running out.
Meaning what? Singapore & Hong Kong have no natural resources, other then location. They are very prosperous. A lot of Canada's natural rsources are already exported to the US. Are you suggesting that Canadians should not sell lumber, petroleum & metal ores to the US ?

Québec has had two referenda on the subejct of leaving Canada. Both lost.

Yes, thanks to the votes of the non-Europid immigrant population. :rolleyes:

Soten
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 06:44 PM
I would be in favor of it, but only if it was structure on the US as it was before the Civil War. More like the modern Swiss Confederation, where the current system was adopted in 1849 & based on the then existing model of the United States. Perhaps this Confederation could include Australia, New Zealand & Britian as a Anglosphere Confederation. But first we would have to sort out some domestic issues in the US, like the repatriaiton of the Latino population & maybe the resettlement of the US Negroes to the Caribbean or West Africa.


Meaning what? Singapore & Hong Kong have no natural resources, other then location. They are very prosperous. A lot of Canada's natural rsources are already exported to the US. Are you suggesting that Canadians should not sell lumber, petroleum & metal ores to the US ?

Yes, thanks to the votes of the non-Europid immigrant population. :rolleyes:

I agree that the structure of government would have to be quite different than what it is today and I do think the modern Swiss Confederation would make a great model. However, making an Anglo-sphere Confederation that also conjoined Australia, New Zealand, and Britain would certainly prove more difficult than any supposed merger with Canada and the US.

I think that New Zealand and Australia merging would be a good idea (don't they already have something like this? Seems ridiculous if they don't). Britain, on the other hand, would be next to impossible from a British standpoint (they would decline such a proposition most likely) and probably would not gain much favour especially with Americans who although they don't harbor too much resentment towards Britain they would conjure up memories of the Revolution.

Canada and the US seem to me like the most likely candidates (besides New Zealand and Australia together) to merge given the proper circumstances.

As far as relocating the Mestizos and Negros goes I have always been partial to Thomas Jefferson's (was it him?) idea to relocate the Africans to the West Indies or Africa itself. I think the idea would have worked had it been carried out in his time. Nowadays that would definitely cause conflict...which is a different matter altogether.

I think it's ridiculous to think that both the US and Canada wouldn't gain economically from such a merger...as already stated the two already export and import tons of goods back and forth.

As far as Canadians thinking they are totally different from Americans I think that is mostly because when they say "Americans" they mean fat-cat, Wall Street, cut-throat businessmen with no care for anything but money or fat, lazy, Happy-meal-eating idiots. Which is obviously not even close to being the norm of the general populace.

Next World
Thursday, October 25th, 2007, 07:01 PM
I don't think that Americans (that I know of) have a very bad image of Canada at all. Sure Americans poke fun at Canadians but its light-hearted. I happen to know many people that love Canada. My mother, for instance, refuses to go anywhere outside the country unless its Canada or England. And lots of friends of mine used to say they were gonna leave and go live in Canada.Just the same, I know tons of people who would love for the United States to merge with Uganda, because it has such a "rich and fabulous" culture--that most Americans actually know nothing about. Americans dislike Canada for the same reason they like Cuba and Ethiopia--ignorance and cultural glances. We have a lot of Canadians around here, but they won't even defend themselves. People believe that Canada wants to "be like" America, that the people there want to "be like" Americans, and so on. It's an issue of ego. We're told that Canada sucks and that they don't have culture other than the things I mentioned before (hockey, beer, maple syrup, aye). We're told that the whole country is just one big block of ice with a few streets on it. We're told that the place doesn't really have a history. People give me the most confused looks when I talk about how many Canadians have died in various wars. Most Americans don't even realize that there are so many Asians in Canada. The greater majority of people I've talked to believe that all Canadians look like Avril Lavigne and a few other "celebs" from the country, just how 9/10 people I've spoken to don't believe that there are blacks in Europe, whites in Africa, or any other number of things. If the US had a merger with any Nation, there would be serious issues, as the majority of the population has been trained to have certain perceptions of the people. You might not, I might not, people you know might not, but the majority of people I've met from around the country do, especially in younger generations.

As far as the culture of the South being different than New England culture--well duh. However, there are plenty of Southerners--I can hook you up with some if you'd like--who go apesh!t if you suggest that their state is part of the United States. Just the same, people in Quebec often don't want to be considered Canadians. If each Nation all ready has such huge cultural issues on a civil level, what's the point in adding more? I know I'm not a Canmerican. I never will be, either.


There are many differences, especially in legal systems and how municipalities are set up, et cetera. These would have to be sorted out. But I doubt there will be warm reception, despite supposed "cultural similiarities". All Canadians I've spoken with have seen themselves as completely and totally different from Americans. They hate being equated with them.That is the main issue I have. The legal system is radically different. I know ours is bogus, but it's a bogus I'm aware of. Imagine how ridiculous a Nation would be come if suddenly the people living within it had to learn and practice unfamiliar laws. How would you even combine the legal systems? I don't think it could be done easily. Just the same, most Americans don't want to be considered Canadians. Some of us have Canadian friends, some of us like to go to visit, some of us move there (mainly old people for the health care, and people involved in political/legal issues), but most of us view this as our Nation.

I'm an American. A United States Citizen, even. I'm not ashamed of that, and if someone thinks it's so horrible, they can kiss it.

As I said, the only thing I'd want to do with Canada is either get a path up to Alaska added to our territory (which would look ridiculous), or to give them Alaska. What I'd like to do with America, on the otherhand... is seemingly endless.


It's kind of like how people shouldn't get married when they're both going through serious changes and issues. Both Canada and the US have enough domestic issues that they really shouldn't be considering tying the knot.

SwordOfTheVistula
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 04:08 AM
Both countries are pretty similar (with the exception of Quebec). Graduates of law schools in some states are allowed to practice in Canada and vice versa. I wouldn't support a union in the current circumstances though because it would tilt the political balance well to the left of what the US currently is.

As mentioned by others, a decentralized federation of states/provinces would work I think.

Also there is the possibility of just reordering Anglo-America entirely if Quebec secedes from Canada, seeing as how parts of the US have more in common culturally with neighboring Canadian provinces than the rest of the US.

Possible matchups:

Northern New England+Maritime Provinces

Northern California, Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia.

Alberta/Manitoba+middle America

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 06:46 AM
It is often remarked that Calgary has more in common with Dallas than do either one have with their own eastern cities. This is definately true of the West Coast. I am for breaking all of North America up into 8 or so countries.

Soten
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 07:03 AM
It is often remarked that Calgary has more in common with Dallas than do either one have with their own eastern cities. This is definately true of the West Coast. I am for breaking all of North America up into 8 or so countries.


And although I will most likely disagree, what 8 countries would yours be?

SwordOfTheVistula
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 09:52 AM
If I had to divide them up, it would be thus:

Quebec
Northern New England+Maritime Provinces, including parts of north/western MA
Northern California, Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia
Former Confederacy+Kentucky, Oklahoma, and southern Missouri
Southern California+Vegas&possibly New Mexico
Eastern Seaboard (DC through Boston metro areas)+South/East Florida
Ontario (at least the Eastern/Southern parts)
Everything else, including western PA,/NY/MD, eastern Washington&Oregon, possibly the north/west parts of Texas and Ontario

Some parts of the southern US states may end up being ceded to Mexico

Huzar
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Quebec
Northern New England+Maritime Provinces, including parts of north/western MA
Northern California, Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia
Former Confederacy+Kentucky, Oklahoma, and southern Missouri
Southern California+Vegas&possibly New Mexico
Eastern Seaboard (DC through Boston metro areas)+South/East Florida
Ontario (at least the Eastern/Southern parts)
Everything else, including western PA,/NY/MD, eastern Washington&Oregon, possibly the north/west parts of Texas and Ontario

Some parts of the southern US states may end up being ceded to Mexico



Interesting. Very interesting.....i think a geographical separation would be a an excellent occasion to separate racial groups (although i fear blacks would attempt toemigrate where Whites settle. Because where Whites are...there is richness. They unfortunately need us.).

Ĉmeric
Friday, October 26th, 2007, 02:06 PM
There was a book published in the early 80s which theorized the the US & Canada were really 9 nations, economically & culturally.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 07:44 AM
And although I will most likely disagree, what 8 countries would yours be?


1. Christian Fundamentalist (somewhere in central USA)

2. Secular/Rationalist (West Coast)

3. Mex-America (New Mexico, parts of Arizona and California)

4. Indian America (Probably upper mid-west USA and parts of Canada)

5. Eastern USA, most of New England minus NYC

6. Southern White USA

7. Southern Black USA (borders of 6 and 7 to be worked out)

8. Jewish USA (New York City, Miami, Washington D.C.)

9. Open Cities (all large urban areas of mixed racial composition)

Blacks, Whites, Religious and Secular groups would all return to their homelands. Mexicans would be kept in theirs as they cannot be differentiated from their Mexican countrymen. Jews would be forced into their areas (as they will refuse to go otherwise) and will inherit all rights, duties, responsibilities and obligations of the old United States of America. The rest of us will make a clean, clear break. Everyone will be happy except, of course, the Jews who need non-Jewish victims to be happy.

SwordOfTheVistula
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 08:35 AM
There was a book published in the early 80s which theorized the the US & Canada were really 9 nations, economically & culturally.

Yeah, that's a pretty good map. Since the 1980s though there have been a couple changes, one of which is the collapse of the American industrial base, and the rise of a commercial megapolis along the I-95 corridor from the southern suburbs of DC in northern Virginia up to the northern suburbs of Boston in southern New Hampshire. So you'd have to disband 'Foundry' and divide it up amongst the neighboring areas, and create a new 'megapolis' or 'jewish america' as Dr. SW would call it.

Oswiu
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Forgive an interfering outsider, but the idea of dividing the USA is quite fascinating.

My maps only take count of ancestry, and not cultural, religious and regional differences which would have to be taken into consideration. I shouldn't have made such monolithic blocks.

Some little playing around sketches, all done so that no group lost out territorially (except of course the original founding group who have already lost so much):

SwordOfTheVistula
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 08:38 AM
Here's a map I made for an RPG I run. If I can find a scanner and the book, I'll upload another map from a book written shortly after the election of Nixon that I came across one day browsing through the books in a thrift shop when I was bored. The book was called 'The Upcoming Republican Majority', and broke down the US into ethnic/cultural groups and predicted politics for the next generation based on this. The predictions all came true except the author did not predict the massive wave of immigration from Mexico/Latin America and this threw off his predictions for Southern California and New Jersey amongst others.

Huzar
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 08:46 AM
Everyone will be happy except, of course, the Jews who need non-Jewish victims to be happy.


You can't be the ruler without a subordinate victim ;)

There are blacks, yes......but i think Jews prefer blond "aryan" whites as victims.


the problem of minorities is.........every minority hates deeply the other ones ;) (i note Jews don't want to mix with Blacks...).

SwordOfTheVistula
Saturday, October 27th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Here's a map, more accurate to the actual situation than the one I made for the game. The Indian Reservations would be totally independent nations