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Siegfried
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 09:16 PM
I have become interested in the racial types in Spain and Portugal, as I read that according to some, a huge amount of non-White blood has been absorbed by them, especially by the Portugese. Does anyone know if this is true, or just Nordicist propaganda? I would like to see pictures or actual data to back up whatever your take on this is.
Also, how many non-Europeans are living in Spain and Portugal?
Thanks.

goidelicwarrior
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 11:43 AM
I have become interested in the racial types in Spain and Portugal, as I read that according to some, a huge amount of non-White blood has been absorbed by them, especially by the Portugese. Does anyone know if this is true, or just Nordicist propaganda? I would like to see pictures or actual data to back up whatever your take on this is.
Also, how many non-Europeans are living in Spain and Portugal?
Thanks. a huge exagaration.. some berber/ arab blood was probably absorbed during the occupation, but remember that 1492 most jews and moors where expelled to north Africa.. a true Spaniard are a white subrace mix of Iberian, Celtic, Roman and Germanic.. as can be seen of the enclosed pics.. of course Spain is affected by immigration from the third world, thney might be around 3-4 % but increasing, most immigrants are from Europe though...

Siegfried
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Thanks, goidelicwarrior
I've never been to Spain and the only time I visited Portugal was when I was about six, so I had little recollection of their racial type.

goidelicwarrior
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Thanks, goidelicwarrior
I've never been to Spain and the only time I visited Portugal was when I was about six, so I had little recollection of their racial type. your welcome...

Vetinari
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 05:11 PM
I have become interested in the racial types in Spain and Portugal, as I read that according to some, a huge amount of non-White blood has been absorbed by them, especially by the Portugese. Does anyone know if this is true, or just Nordicist propaganda? I would like to see pictures or actual data to back up whatever your take on this is.
Also, how many non-Europeans are living in Spain and Portugal?
Thanks.

Here is a link to genetic research on Iberians:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.text.html

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 09:40 AM
Here is a link to genetic research on Iberians:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n4/002582/002582.text.html this is not surprising...no half negoid nation could ever have risen to the heights the Spanish empire rose to.. very simple.. :D

Milesian
Sunday, January 18th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Excellent Post!
I feel the below passage deserves to be highlighted for special praise :D




Another thing to have into account was the excellent work done by the Tribunal of the Holy Office (or Inquisition) and the Tribunals of Blood Purity, in later times to uncover the crypto jews and moors.

Tautalos
Monday, January 19th, 2004, 06:11 PM
Very good and informative text. The only mistake is about the Alani: being Indo-Iranian, they were, indeed, Indo-European - real Aryans, close related to the Roxolani, Scythes, the Cimerians, the contemporary Ossetians and, in a less extent, the Persians.

galvez
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 12:35 AM
I have become interested in the racial types in Spain and Portugal, as I read that according to some, a huge amount of non-White blood has been absorbed by them, especially by the Portugese. Does anyone know if this is true, or just Nordicist propaganda? I would like to see pictures or actual data to back up whatever your take on this is.
Also, how many non-Europeans are living in Spain and Portugal?
Thanks.

Typically this is a claim made by nonscholars and individuals who really don't understand the phenotypic diversity among Europeans. Swarthy Mediterraneans have been in Europe since at least Neolithic times.

The Moors who invaded Spain were initially Berbers and Arabs (not Blacks), and undoubtedly some absorption took place. Some of the Moorish leaders even took blonde Galician women as wives and thus, over generations, blue eyes were common among the caliphs. :) Towards the end of Muslim rule in Spain, the vast majority of Moors were actually converted Spaniards and their descendents. In 1609 Philip III expelled the remaining Moriscos (as they were called) in Spain.

If the Moors were "half-Black," as Arthur Kemp claims, then mulattoes invented algebra and reintroduced Aristotle to Europe. :fhhorse:

The level of North African absorption is likely to have been exaggerated. First, it was propaganda spread by Protestant countries to tarnish the image of the Catholic Spaniards: this is known as the "black legend." Later, these same claims were used by racialists of Northern European extraction to express a generalized disliking of Mediterraneans. Lately I have understood the claims that SEs are "tainted" to be an expression of disliking (probably for aesthetic reasons) more than anything. So it can be understood as a poorly articulated way of expressing disapproval. Hence, the dumber the participants of a forum are, the more likely are such claims to surface.

Hidalgo
Saturday, January 31st, 2004, 01:58 PM
Typically this is a claim made by nonscholars and individuals who really don't understand the phenotypic diversity among Europeans. Swarthy Mediterraneans have been in Europe since at least Neolithic times.

The Moors who invaded Spain were initially Berbers and Arabs (not Blacks), and undoubtedly some absorption took place. Some of the Moorish leaders even took blonde Galician women as wives and thus, over generations, blue eyes were common among the caliphs. :) Towards the end of Muslim rule in Spain, the vast majority of Moors were actually converted Spaniards and their descendents. In 1609 Philip III expelled the remaining Moriscos (as they were called) in Spain.

If the Moors were "half-Black," as Arthur Kemp claims, then mulattoes invented algebra and reintroduced Aristotle to Europe. :fhhorse:

The level of North African absorption is likely to have been exaggerated. First, it was propaganda spread by Protestant countries to tarnish the image of the Catholic Spaniards: this is known as the "black legend." Later, these same claims were used by racialists of Northern European extraction to express a generalized disliking of Mediterraneans. Lately I have understood the claims that SEs are "tainted" to be an expression of disliking (probably for aesthetic reasons) more than anything. So it can be understood as a poorly articulated way of expressing disapproval. Hence, the dumber the participants of a forum are, the more likely are such claims to surface.

Swarthy Mediterraneans have been in Europe since at least Neolithic times.

We can say for sure that "Swarthy Arab looking Mediterraneans" a la Banderas have been in Iberia since PALEOLITHIC times because such types are also found among Basques who are genetically the purest Europeans. The following individuals(which would not be considered white by some people) have lesser Middle-Eastern and North African ancestry as the blondest Swede:

http://www.clubcultura.com/clubliteratura/clubescritores/luciaetxebarria/homelucia/img/luciaprehomebig.jpg

http://suse00.su.ehu.es/euskonews/0110zbk/argazkiak/luciaport.jpg

http://www.icons.com/images/home/homepic_urzaiz.jpg

http://www.icons.com/images/teams/ATHLETIC/urzaiz.jpg

http://www.bikenews.it/cicloturismo/gf-pinarello/miguel.jpg


The Moors who invaded Spain were initially Berbers and Arabs (not Blacks), and undoubtedly some absorption took place.

You mean some absorbation of "Moorish" blood by Christian Spaniards took place?

"The newly defined HG25.2 originated on a HG25.1 background. Haplogroup 25.2 is very common only in Northern Africa, and most likely originated in the Berbers of Northwestern Africa within the last few thousand years. Its recent origin and high frequency in North Africa make it an excellent marker to detect recent gene flow to Iberia and Southern Europe"

Haplogroup 25.2

Moroccan Berber......71,0%
Lombardy..................5,6%
France.......................4,1%
Asturias.....................2,2%
Andalusia..................1,6%

"Human Y-chromosome variation in the western Mediterranean area implications for the peopling of the region"

Hg25.2 indicates post-neolithic gene flow from Northwestafrica. If Spaniards would have absorbed Moorish blood we should expect at least a higher % of this marker in Spain. But that's not the case. So according to genetic evidence we can say Spaniards DID NOT absorbed ANY Moorish blood.

galvez
Saturday, January 31st, 2004, 05:03 PM
You mean some absorbation of "Moorish" blood by Christian Spaniards took place?

"The newly defined HG25.2 originated on a HG25.1 background. Haplogroup 25.2 is very common only in Northern Africa, and most likely originated in the Berbers of Northwestern Africa within the last few thousand years. Its recent origin and high frequency in North Africa make it an excellent marker to detect recent gene flow to Iberia and Southern Europe"

Haplogroup 25.2

Moroccan Berber......71,0%
Lombardy..................5,6%
France.......................4,1%
Asturias.....................2,2%
Andalusia..................1,6%

"Human Y-chromosome variation in the western Mediterranean area implications for the peopling of the region"

Hg25.2 indicates post-neolithic gene flow from Northwestafrica. If Spaniards would have absorbed Moorish blood we should expect at least a higher % of this marker in Spain. But that's not the case. So according to genetic evidence we can say Spaniards DID NOT absorbed ANY Moorish blood.

Your post was very informative, and you backed up your claims with evidence. And you are correct: some of those Basques would be considered "non-White" by some people even though they are among the racially purest in Europe. I believe genetic evidence is slowly but surely dispelling the myths about mongrelized Southern Europeans. It is my belief that most people who say Meds are mixed are merely saying they don't like Meds or the way they look. They just don't know how to express themselves well.

Additionally, while it may be true that Moorish absorption is a myth -- according to the findings of more recent studies -- I see nothing wrong with minor absorption that occurs. Contrary to what some European racialists believe, the Moors were the most advanced people of their time, with a potent concentration of "good" genes in Spain and elsewhere (despite being "non-White"), and the advancement enjoyed by Europeans in recent centuries is to some extent owed to the Moors for their intellectual curiosity and prowess. Without the Moors invaluable classical works would have been lost.

So, it may be true that Moorish absorption is a myth, but either way the notion that the Moors were racially compromised savages is itself a distortion, and one in which Europeans who uphold the truth must counter simply because it is a lie.

goidelicwarrior
Wednesday, February 4th, 2004, 10:59 AM
We can say for sure that "Swarthy Arab looking Mediterraneans" a la Banderas have been in Iberia since PALEOLITHIC times because such types are also found among Basques who are genetically the purest Europeans. The following individuals(which would not be considered white by some people) have lesser Middle-Eastern and North African ancestry as the blondest Swede:

http://www.clubcultura.com/clubliteratura/clubescritores/luciaetxebarria/homelucia/img/luciaprehomebig.jpg

http://suse00.su.ehu.es/euskonews/0110zbk/argazkiak/luciaport.jpg

http://www.icons.com/images/home/homepic_urzaiz.jpg

http://www.icons.com/images/teams/ATHLETIC/urzaiz.jpg

http://www.bikenews.it/cicloturismo/gf-pinarello/miguel.jpg



You mean some absorbation of "Moorish" blood by Christian Spaniards took place?

"The newly defined HG25.2 originated on a HG25.1 background. Haplogroup 25.2 is very common only in Northern Africa, and most likely originated in the Berbers of Northwestern Africa within the last few thousand years. Its recent origin and high frequency in North Africa make it an excellent marker to detect recent gene flow to Iberia and Southern Europe"

Haplogroup 25.2

Moroccan Berber......71,0%
Lombardy..................5,6%
France.......................4,1%
Asturias.....................2,2%
Andalusia..................1,6%

"Human Y-chromosome variation in the western Mediterranean area implications for the peopling of the region"

Hg25.2 indicates post-neolithic gene flow from Northwestafrica. If Spaniards would have absorbed Moorish blood we should expect at least a higher % of this marker in Spain. But that's not the case. So according to genetic evidence we can say Spaniards DID NOT absorbed ANY Moorish blood. heres another pic of Miguel Indurain with with fellow basques... I think it represents a much better image of the Spanish composition..

galvez
Wednesday, February 4th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Gálvez used to have a picture of Mendieta (a soccer player) as an avatar (Gálvez, could you post that picture?). Yes, his hair is blondish, and he is a Basque from the Basque Country. But that only means he has some admixture, and by no means is he an example of the Basque phenotype.


Here he is:


http://www.geocities.com/mednationalist/Mendieta.txt

Siegfried
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Thanks for all the information.

I was looking at the website of a Spanish political party, Democracia Nacional (http://www.democracianacional.org/) , and came across a list of pictures of party members (Organicazion -> Mesa Nacional). Does this list then provide a realistic approximation of the Spanish type?

Nordhammer
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 08:13 AM
heres another pic of Miguel Indurain with with fellow basques... I think it represents a much better image of the Spanish composition..

I don't think the opposition to assimilating distinct Meds needs a justification of non-white blood. It's the same tendency to want to explain racism against blacks because "they're all criminals and degenerates". It's simply not true. But this justification is completely unnecessary.

I disfavor the immigration of such Spaniards simply based on phenotype and non-Nordish ancestry.

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Thanks for all the information.

I was looking at the website of a Spanish political party, Democracia Nacional (http://www.democracianacional.org/) , and came across a list of pictures of party members (Organicazion -> Mesa Nacional). Does this list then provide a realistic approximation of the Spanish type?
yes..it is..

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 09:47 AM
I don't think the opposition to assimilating distinct Meds needs a justification of non-white blood. It's the same tendency to want to explain racism against blacks because "they're all criminals and degenerates". It's simply not true. But this justification is completely unnecessary.

I disfavor the immigration of such Spaniards simply based on phenotype and non-Nordish ancestry. No need to worry, the only immigration to the "Nordic heartland" are the brown masses that your jewish leadership favor adding to the below image..

http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/USA-index4.htm

Glenlivet
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Interesting pictures. Thanks.



http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/USA-index4.htm

Rex
Thursday, February 5th, 2004, 07:32 PM
Thanks for all the information.

I was looking at the website of a Spanish political party, Democracia Nacional (http://www.democracianacional.org/) , and came across a list of pictures of party members (Organicazion -> Mesa Nacional). Does this list then provide a realistic approximation of the Spanish type?

Yes, but the photos are card identity pics (bad quality) anyway the answer it´s yes.

Nordhammer
Friday, February 6th, 2004, 12:56 AM
No need to worry, the only immigration to the "Nordic heartland" are the brown masses that your jewish leadership favor adding to the below image..

http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/usa/USA-index4.htm

I agree with you. There is a tendency to draw only distinctions between blacks and whites, or the 3 major types, while any semi-white mongrel or Asiatic is okay. This Pan-Aryan approach is not to my liking and I think preserving Northern European ancestry is important.

Marduk
Sunday, February 8th, 2004, 12:55 AM
I agree with you. There is a tendency to draw only distinctions between blacks and whites, or the 3 major types, while any semi-white mongrel or Asiatic is okay. This Pan-Aryan approach is not to my liking and I think preserving Northern European ancestry is important.

Fortunately your country is only threatened by masses of Spanish people. Ho lucky you are. As for other European countries, immigrants aren't "swarthy" mediterraneans... :~(

Defending med or dinarics doesn't imply to accept any half-mongols or half-arabs in our ranks.

Gesta Bellica
Sunday, February 8th, 2004, 12:52 PM
I'm curious.. could you tell us which country do you come from?

IMO, Spaniards have been a rather strange group as immigrants. We have never been keen on abandoning our homelands except to go to our colonies. True that the post-war harshness of the 40's, and later the international isolation by which democracies forced an impoverishment in Spain, as a consequence produced a mass of immigrants into Central Europe. But the vast majority of these immigrants only had one idea in mind, and that was to earn money outside and then return home. Homesickness was the illness of those Spaniards all along. I even know of a case where a Spanish woman married a German, and then "forced" him to go live in Spain, despite him not having any ties, need, or speaking Spanish. The only place where many remained is Southern France, and only because the Southern French are the closest you get to Spaniards, despite being a place "invaded" by the Frankish. Southern French (Occitans) are a mixture of Iberian, Basque and Celtic, with the later Roman settlers and a small Visigothic admixture, in a degree similar to Spaniards.

In contrast, we are now seeing a significant number of Central and Northern Europeans seeking to settle in Spain. They are no longer of the type of tourists or old people retiring in Spain. The nice part of it is that they say they come because they like and favour our culture and habits. The ugly part is that after a while they show their nordishness and pretend to force it into our culture, showing little respect for a culture that's older and more complex than theirs.

Because I lived for 6 years in a Central/Northern European country, and always respected it and never tried to infere, I find this most annoying.


Note: I'll admit that the Celts are a people who integrate extremely well in Spain. Not just in the more Celtic areas of Spain, but also in the Mediterranean areas.

Note: racism in Spain is not only growing among people against the moorish, black or mestizo americans, but also against groups of Eastern Europeans like Ukrainians, Russians, or Northern as the Balts.

Note: in all fairness, there is another group which is being well accepted, the Poles.

I think that some Americans have the idea that we are begging for their acceptance :D
Here in Italy the most extremist groups in the Far Right hate Americans and consider them a non entity.
In other words, according to those extremists, they might have 100% European blood but they are not Europeans anymore for cultural reasons.

And yes, also in Italy some people don't like Russians and Eastern Europeans regardless their skin or hair colourActually the only foreign entity that is really accepted are the Spaniards, quite ironic coz i have heard that in your newspapers they criticize Italy and Italians quite often, expecially about football :D

U can't please everybody ;)

Gesta Bellica
Sunday, February 8th, 2004, 02:24 PM
I simply think that it's a waste of time thinking of America as a White continent. The only chance they have to survive as whites in the future is doing as those Spaniards and Portuguese in South and Central America who live as groups distinctively separated from the mass of indians, mestizos and mulattoes. The funny thing is that the only groups in North America that I see able to do such a thing are those which have shown a cohesion through sticking to their European origins through ages, and those mainly Italians.

Well we Italians are catholic and our immigrations is more recent than the Anglo-Saxon ones. This helped a lot in the process of saving some common bonds with the fatherland.. the Irish did the same in effect :)




I read the normal papers on a daily basis, and I've never seen any critiques to Italy or the Italians, none that I remember. I don't read any paper related to football, so I don't really know. There are many Italian young people living in Spain, but they integrate fast and well. With Italians, integration is not an issue since much of the culture is similar, and the part that is not does not crash with local cultures, but is rather like an added value... as it has been for centuries.

Oh.. yes, the one who critizes Italians a lot is me. But that's only when I meet a couple of friends from Rome and we start these friendly battles which are more fun than anything else ;)

yes i was teasing too :) anyway i think there are more Italians that moved in Spain than vice versa.
The language thing is a big help, we can understand each other from the start just using Italian and Spanish..
Your beaches are better! :)

Zimmer Mann
Monday, February 9th, 2004, 08:55 AM
How much jewish blood is still remaining in Iberia, specifically Portugal. I've heard that the Spainish expelled most at threat of death but the Portuguese had a soft spot for them and preferred them to just convert. Many jews were doctors, cartographers, scientists, and court advisors. They were then called conversos or "New Christians." Many descendants apparently still exist in Brazil, Central America, and the south east U.S. Some surnames like Silva, and Rosa might have have Jewish connections as with other plant or flower derived names. Is this just garbage or is there truth in this?