PDA

View Full Version : Map of the Anthropologic Formations of Europe [Czekanowski]



Vojvoda
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 02:56 PM
Also Coon's map.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe-map9a.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe-map9b.jpg

Razmig
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 09:14 PM
I don't think those maps are 100% accurate but I saved em just cuz I'm a map freak. WTF is Caucaso-Balkan? Thanks for the post!

Vojvoda
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 09:42 PM
I don't think those maps are 100% accurate but I saved em just cuz I'm a map freak. WTF is Caucaso-Balkan? Thanks for the post!

It's "Dinarid".

Vojvoda
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Let me point out that Czekanowski never referred to a "Dinarid" race but rather a blend of a Nordid+Armenid type.

Odin Of Ossetia
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Let me point out that Czekanowski never referred to a "Dinarid" race but rather a blend of a Nordid+Armenid type.


This in addition to the fact that most Balts, Finns, and Britons "are Nordic" is just one more example of that this map does not make any sense.


PS - Why are Arabs classified as "Meds"? They're Semites!

Awar
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Semites are a linguistic category, similar to Turkic or Indo-European.

Loki
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 10:40 PM
This in addition to the fact that most Balts, Finns, and Britons "are Nordic" is just one more example of that this map does not make any sense.


Well, those areas of Britain indicated as Nordic are Nordic. And so are the rest. I agree quite a bit with Czekanowski's map. One of the more realistic ones around... although not perfect.

Loki
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 10:46 PM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6615

Vojvoda
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Well, those areas of Britain indicated as Nordic are Nordic. And so are the rest. I agree quite a bit with Czekanowski's map. One of the more realistic ones around... although not perfect.

No, it's not 'perfect' but it is better than Coon's IMO. I have always stated that Serbia is 'mixed' sub racially and now I have a map to prove it :D

Loki
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 11:01 PM
LOL.... Southern Portugal & Spain are "Euro-African". :D

Awar
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 01:39 AM
LOL.... Southern Portugal & Spain are "Euro-African". :D

Bah! You're taking the data too Littoraly ;)

Nordgau
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 07:28 PM
No, it's not 'perfect' but it is better than Coon's IMO. I have always stated that Serbia is 'mixed' sub racially and now I have a map to prove it :D

How high do you think the percentage of Dinaric race is among the Serbian people?

Vojvoda
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 07:42 PM
How high do you think the percentage of Dinaric race is among the Serbian people?

I highly doubt it is as high as 75%(McCulloch), In it's pure form I'd say around 40%(Vojvoda) :| :D

Nordgau
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 08:28 PM
I highly doubt it is as high as 75%(McCulloch), In it's pure form I'd say around 40%(Vojvoda) :| :D

McCulloch estimates even more than 75% Dinaric race for Serbia, as he estimates 75% Dinaric, 10% West Mediterranean, 10% Noric and 5% Neo-Danubian for Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Macedonia together and estimates the West Mediterranean element highest at the coastal area and the two other non-Dinaric elements highest in the north of this whole South-Slavic area, thus rather in non-Serbian regions. :D

http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html


40% in its pure form... hmm, could be. I've already read estimations of the Dinaric element in "the South of the German language area" of 25%, or of the Dinaric element in Bavaria between 30% and 50%, but here one thinks of the Dinaric "element" which includes quite pure looking as well as more or less blend types. Even in those areas in Bavaria-Austria where the Dinaric element is comparetively strong, the Dinaric element appears hardly in the same way predominating as in South-Slavic areas. There are also Serbians who hardly look Dinaric, but some photos give the impression of Serbia as "Dinaric's Paradise":

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3726&highlight=belgrade
http://zivotic.com/photo/fin/D100_03/dsc_3625.jpg
http://zivotic.com/photo/fin/d100_05/dsc_5188.jpg

Awar
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Ok, let me make an estimate:

Serbia is not much of a mystery. The most dominant minority is Dinaric in it's pure form.
There is a relatively high frequency of light eyes, while there isn't much blonde hair.
So, a good portion of these 'Dinarics' could be classified as 'Noric'.

I'd say that the most similarity I've seen is between Serbs and the populations to the north-east ( Hungary and Ukraine ).

There are probably:

30% Dinaric and Noric
20% Atlanto-Med and North-Pontid
10-15% Alpinids
5-10% Danubians
5-10% Upper-Palaeolithic ( Borreby-like types, almost no Brunn-like types )
2-5% Nordic
2-5% Short statured east-Mediterraneans. ( in the border south-east parts )
2-5% Neo-Danubians
1-2% Turanid-like
1-2% Tall Headed Corded Nordics

( rarely is any of this in it's absolute pure form ).

Montenegro is very different from Serbia, and it's very much a mystery to me as to what exactly are the Montenegrins, since they are completely different from any other population in Europe and Eurasia. There is a racial continuum with Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Montenegro and partially northern Albania. You can most easily notice the difference because they are on average much lighter pigmented and much taller.

There is a very sharp difference between Serbs and Greeks, a little less sharp between Serbs and Bulgarians, Macedonians, same goes for Romanians.
Hungarians and Croats are usually completely same as Serbs.

( of course, these are just my weird estimates :) )

Awar
Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Nordgau, dude, the people in your second picture are all Gypsies with perhaps one Serb.

Vojvoda
Friday, January 9th, 2004, 03:34 AM
McCulloch estimates even more than 75% Dinaric race for Serbia, as he estimates 75% Dinaric, 10% West Mediterranean, 10% Noric and 5% Neo-Danubian for Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Macedonia together and estimates the West Mediterranean element highest at the coastal area and the two other non-Dinaric elements highest in the north of this whole South-Slavic area, thus rather in non-Serbian regions. :D

http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html


40% in its pure form... hmm, could be. I've already read estimations of the Dinaric element in "the South of the German language area" of 25%, or of the Dinaric element in Bavaria between 30% and 50%, but here one thinks of the Dinaric "element" which includes quite pure looking as well as more or less blend types. Even in those areas in Bavaria-Austria where the Dinaric element is comparetively strong, the Dinaric element appears hardly in the same way predominating as in South-Slavic areas. There are also Serbians who hardly look Dinaric, but some photos give the impression of Serbia as "Dinaric's Paradise":

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3726&highlight=belgrade
http://zivotic.com/photo/fin/D100_03/dsc_3625.jpg
http://zivotic.com/photo/fin/d100_05/dsc_5188.jpg

There is nothing really unusual about the first pic you posted,they are brunet which is common but I wouldn't classify the majority of them as pure Dinarids.The second pic are city workers who are mostly gypsies anyway.Anyway,the idea of phenotype over ethnicity is not important to me.I'm sure many Dinarids fought and died for Serbia.Glory to all of the fallen heroes.

It's usually easy for people from the Balkans to guess where one is from just by looking at their face,or facial expressions.AWAR and Triglav know what I mean.Other Serbs usually guess I am from Belgrade or around that area, which I am.

Although the man in the pics I have attached is wearing a Slovenian uniform, his face is typically Bosnian IMO.I would never guess that he is from Serbia. Unsurprisingly, he is a Bosnian Muslim,Alibegovic, who plays for the Slovene national team :D

Nordgau
Friday, January 9th, 2004, 02:57 PM
Nordgau, dude, the people in your second picture are all Gypsies with perhaps one Serb.

I'm sorry. In Germany one isn't used to see working Gypsies... :|

Which one of these guys ("[They] all look Dinaric" - Cosmocreator) do you think to be probably a Serb? :D

Awar
Friday, January 9th, 2004, 06:54 PM
The one in the light blue shirt, he's got a flattened occupit, which is rare for Gypsies.

The Gypsies in the picture aren't Dinaric, they just have convex noses.

Johnny Reb
Friday, January 9th, 2004, 07:06 PM
What year was that map made? Is it still accurate after WW2?

norda
Friday, January 9th, 2004, 08:07 PM
What year was that map made? Is it still accurate after WW2?
I think it relates to 1938. Of course there were some changes after IIWW (I hope we all know what) but they were not so drastic. Nobody will publish similar contemporary map. There are simply no stats including immigrants, theirs race or mixed types.

Odin Of Ossetia
Saturday, January 10th, 2004, 10:59 PM
Semites are a linguistic category, similar to Turkic or Indo-European.



That's is not entirely true; they're just as much a racial category as a linguistic one!

Odin Of Ossetia
Saturday, January 10th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Well, those areas of Britain indicated as Nordic are Nordic. And so are the rest. I agree quite a bit with Czekanowski's map. One of the more realistic ones around... although not perfect.


No, in fact they're not. Only a very small segment of England, on the North Sea in the south-east, is really Nordic.

Odin Of Ossetia
Saturday, January 10th, 2004, 11:04 PM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=6615


Scots, northern Poles, most English "are Nordic"?! That is one total bull-shit!


Most Scots are Celtic "Meds" as are most English.

Odin Of Ossetia
Saturday, January 10th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Scots, northern Poles, most English "are Nordic"?! That is one total bull-shit!


Most Scots are Celtic "Meds" as are most English.



Hey even the northern Poles and north-eastern Germans (of Slavic origin) should be East Baltic.

Where did Czekanowski get his education; some German university perhaps?

Razmig
Saturday, January 10th, 2004, 11:41 PM
That's is not entirely true; they're just as much a racial category as a linguistic one!

It has nothing to do with race. Semite means "those of the Bible." The Assyrians speak a semetic language, infact created it, but they are Indo-European stock. Semite can refer to any group speaking Arabic, Jewish, or Assyrian...its strictly linguistic. The Finns speak Uggric-Finnic language, are the the same as the Siberians? No.

norda
Thursday, January 29th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Anthropologic territories of Europe

Vojvoda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 03:37 AM
Anthropologic territories of Europe

Excellent map.Although the map is from 1934, it shows Serbia,portions of western Bulgaria, eastern Bosnia,northern Croatia and northern Slovenia as mix Nordic,Armeoidal,Lapponoidal and less Armenoidal than the western Balkans, more Nordic than eastern Balkans.

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 07:33 AM
Excellent map.Although the map is from 1934, it shows Serbia,portions of western Bulgaria, eastern Bosnia,northern Croatia and northern Slovenia as mix Nordic,Armeoidal,Lapponoidal and less Armenoidal than the western Balkans, more Nordic than eastern Balkans.
Czekanowski proved that first Bohemian Slavs (excluding native skulls) were very similar in anthropologic structure to Poles. He pointed that Slavic migrations from Poland to Bohemia and to Balkan region was predominantly Nordic what is very similar to XXc emigration from Europe to US (eg. Scotish migration to US was more predominantly Nordic than most Nordic counties of Scandinavia.- so preferences and selection have caused such drift). Early geographic sources confirm the same tribe names- Serbs in Lusitia, Chorvats in southern Poland which later appear in Balkan. During their way to Balkan Early Slavs absorbed local populations. Strongly Nordic drift on south was the main factor of denordicization of Southern Poland in the times of Great Migration. Similar process occurred in Eastern Slavic migrations.
I think its very possible that similar denordicization of Central Germany would be the effect of early migrations.

Razmig
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 10:12 AM
Scots, northern Poles, most English "are Nordic"?! That is one total bull-shit!


Most Scots are Celtic "Meds" as are most English.
LOL Nordic = Depigmented Med


Czekanowski proved that first Bohemian Slavs (excluding native skulls) were very similar in anthropologic structure to Poles. He pointed that Slavic migrations from Poland to Bohemia and to Balkan region was predominantly Nordic what is very similar to XXc emigration from Europe to US (eg. Scotish migration to US was more predominantly Nordic than most Nordic counties of Scandinavia.- so preferences and selection have caused such drift). Early geographic sources confirm the same tribe names- Serbs in Lusitia, Chorvats in southern Poland which later appear in Balkan. During their way to Balkan Early Slavs absorbed local populations. Strongly Nordic drift on south was the main factor of denordicization of Southern Poland in the times of Great Migration. Similar process occurred in Eastern Slavic migrations.
I think its very possible that similar denordicization of Central Germany would be the effect of early migrations.
Don't forget that the "slavs" of the regions of Byelorussia, Poland (exluding Balto Viking Settlements) were simply Slavisized Vikings, those whome most the time ruled the Slavs, then simply became them.

Razmig
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 10:18 AM
Anthropologic territories of Europe
Are you sure thats accurate? It's hard to beleive that much of Europe is Armenoid...I think its incorrect (my opinion).

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 10:46 AM
LOL Nordic = Depigmented Med


Don't forget that the "slavs" of the regions of Byelorussia, Poland (exluding Balto Viking Settlements) were simply Slavisized Vikings, those whome most the time ruled the Slavs, then simply became them.

Nordic is not depigmented Med. There are strong metrical diffrences. If you lack of simple stats I would provide it.

Of course you are not right. Viking movements occurred 400-200 years after Great Migrations so theirs influences on Early Slavs -ca 600 ad can not be true. Moreover Vikings in Southern Baltic were observed only in two mixed towns Jansborg (Wolin) and Truso (Elbing). The fate of Novgorod Varegs is totally different but of course didn’t change racial character significantly.

btw IE nordic element is still present in Caucasus so you shouldn't be amazed with your light pigmentation.
Osetia early iron age Nordic element 20,2%, Medit 23,8%, Armenoidal 40,8%, Lapponoidal 15,0%
Osetia contemporary Nordic element 11,8%, Medit 23,6%, Armenoidal 40,8%, Lapponoidal 23,6%

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 10:55 AM
Are you sure thats accurate? It's hard to beleive that much of Europe is Armenoid...I think its incorrect (my opinion).
Armenoidal element was part of all IE groups but in different %, now it is present even in Scandinavia (example Eidfjord 7%), Is stronger in UK- London XVIIc-14,4%. Moreover it was even in neolithic Europe (Danemark Late Neolith 9,4%.)

Razmig
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 11:19 AM
Nordic is not depigmented Med. There are strong metrical diffrences. If you lack of simple stats I would provide it.

Of course you are not right. Viking movements occurred 400-200 years after Great Migrations so theirs influences on Early Slavs -ca 600 ad can not be true. Moreover Vikings in Southern Baltic were observed only in two mixed towns Jansborg (Wolin) and Truso (Elbing). The fate of Novgorod Varegs is totally different but of course didn’t change racial character significantly.

btw IE nordic element is still present in Caucasus so you shouldn't be amazed with your light pigmentation.
Osetia early iron age Nordic element 20,2%, Medit 23,8%, Armenoidal 40,8%, Lapponoidal 15,0%
Osetia contemporary Nordic element 11,8%, Medit 23,6%, Armenoidal 40,8%, Lapponoidal 23,6%

Actually no I'm not "amazed" with my pigmentation, it's common for my variant of Armenian. My family does not come from anywhere remotely near the Caucus (my town is closer to Bulgaria than to Russia).

I could be wrong but the I have a map showing the Balto-Viking settlements, and the Rhoss/Russ of Novgorod and greater Rhossia.
On several occasions Ive read Meds are pigmented Nords. Remember, there are only 4 original Europid races: Nordic, Armenoid, Lappoid, Ibero-Insular. I don't know what you mean by IE NORDIC, Armenoids are IE as well.
Ive heard of Armenoid settlements in Denmark and what have you, but I meant present day (is this map present day)?

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 11:33 AM
Actually no I'm not "amazed" with my pigmentation, it's common for my variant of Armenian. My family does not come from anywhere remotely near the Caucus (my town is closer to Bulgaria than to Russia).

I could be wrong but the I have a map showing the Balto-Viking settlements, and the Rhoss/Russ of Novgorod and greater Rhossia.

Ive heard of Armenoid settlements in Denmark and what have you, but I meant present day (is this map present day)?
Balto-Viking settlements? What do you mean? The fate of Varegs (Novgorod Vikings) rulling class among Eastern Slavs is quite well known but raciall influence on Russia was rather week (small number).
The map is from 1934, but I stated earlier, contemporary are not available (in near future too). Ive heard of Armenoid settlements in Denmark I doubt if they were strong pure Armenoidal (race) settlements in DK. I said such element was rather admixture in populations and in individuals.

Razmig
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 11:43 AM
Baltic Vikings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the first part of 11th century the Viking raids from Scandinavia tailed off and from this time forward the Baltic seaside was dominated Vikings from ancient Baltic populations, including the Estonians and Lives. The Estonians and Kurshi very well knew Gotland and they frequently had performed raids on this island. Baltic population was involved also in the mutual fighting of Scandinavians. The Kurshi are among the populations that had performed notably raids on Denmark and they had been considered as the most dangerous Vikings. The sovereigns of Denmark were forced to create and keep up the sea guards to defend their land from the Estonian and Kurshian Viking raids.
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/imgs/fig025.jpg



I've also read many several sources that the Armenoids were the ones who dominated the trade of Amber off of the baltic coast. Perhaps the Nordics brought it to them during theyre passage through the volga, and past the Caucus.

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Baltic Vikings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the first part of 11th century the Viking raids from Scandinavia tailed off and from this time forward the Baltic seaside was dominated Vikings from ancient Baltic populations, including the Estonians and Lives. The Estonians and Kurshi very well knew Gotland and they frequently had performed raids on this island. Baltic population was involved also in the mutual fighting of Scandinavians. The Kurshi are among the populations that had performed notably raids on Denmark and they had been considered as the most dangerous Vikings. The sovereigns of Denmark were forced to create and keep up the sea guards to defend their land from the Estonian and Kurshian Viking raids.
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/imgs/fig025.jpg

I've also read many several sources that the Armenoids were the ones who dominated the trade of Amber off of the baltic coast. Perhaps the Nordics brought it to them during theyre passage through the volga, and past the Caucus.
Calling Balts, Finnes, or Slavs- "Vikings" doesnt make them true Skandinavian Vikings. Btw the most dangerous Baltic pirates of that time were slavic Rugians.
Nice story of Armenians on Baltic coast but hard to verify after 2000y. :D

Triglav
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Well, in older literature, Armenoid was synonymous with what we today call Alpine, but I am not sure whether this pertains to Czekanowski's terminology.

Armenoid might also refer to what is usually known as Taurid, which comprises Dinarid, Armenoid and Mtebid, since Armenoid is usually said to be the root type (this is only my speculation, though).

The Vikings were able to conquer distant lands, but not defeat the Baltic Slavs. Norda, what is the Polish name for the Baltic "Vikings". I've been told it, but I only remember it started in Kon (horse) or something.

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 12:28 PM
Well, in older literature, Armenoid was synonymous with what we today call Alpine, but I am not sure whether this pertains to Czekanowski's terminology.

Armenoid might also refer to what is usually known as Taurid which comprises Dinarid, Armenoid and Mtebid, since Armenoid is usually said to be the root type (this is only my speculation, though).
Racial Classification within the White Family
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-VIII6.htm
please note that Coon was mistaken in simple reading of diagram ;)
Of course Alpine and Dinaric types should change place.
Alpine type is cross of Armenoid and Lapponoid races.
Dinaric type is cross of Armenoid and Nordic races.

norda
Friday, January 30th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Its interesting that complicated Coons systematic have fallen after newest genetic researches. While simple mathematic Czekanowski’s systematic is still valid. Moreover his general correlation of two IE branches which meet in E.Germany is clearly proven by genetic. I am going to connect available anthropologic data with knowledge we have about genetic. If somebody is interested in participation please contact me.

Loki
Sunday, December 5th, 2004, 12:38 PM
https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=77694&d=1106405981