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Agrippa
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 02:28 AM
I often read Turanid but some use it that, others this way...

I personnally think its more useful to call the Asian Alpinoids Turanid and the mixed central Asians f.e. Eurasians...

Eickstedt differed in the Turanid "race" Pamiride and Aralide.
So far as I know the 1st were what I meant and the 2nd those with more Mongolid admixture.

But however, for a correct terminology it is necessary to know what we are speaking about.
At least I dont think that it is useful to call every Eurasian or any Eastern European or Central Asian Europid with Mongolid admixture Turanid.

Evolved
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 05:57 AM
Turanids are Mongolid-Europid hybrids. It's a stable type, not every half-Asian, half-European is a Turanid. The boundary between pure Europids and pure Mongolids is made of Turanids, there are no natural barriers between the 2 races, so they have bred a hybrid race. The Mongolid genetic component is usually on the female line, the Europid on the male line.

An East-Baltic Uralic girl from Hungary, A Turanid woman from Bashkiria:

http://www.skadi.net/~ladygoeth/ladogan/ladies/magyar_lany.gif http://www.bashedu.ru/konkurs/hayrullin/tip2.gif

Uralics (aka Ladogans, East-Baltics, Neo-Danubians) are Upper Paleolithic survivors with an affiliation with Finnic and Ugrian people, although they are found all over Eastern, Northern and Central Europe in different ethnic populations. They are partially Mongolid only in a taxonomic way, incipient Mongolid, like Alpines or people with Down Syndrome. Russia's Uralics are Slavicized Finns. Finland is the blondest and probably the most racially Uralic country. :)

I hope my descriptions don't offend anyone. :)

cosmocreator
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 06:53 AM
Frans called Scathach part Turanid. I don't see it and don't see how it's possible.

Evolved
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 08:53 AM
He said she was part Taurid. :)


Taurid Race: mature-boreal, with very high and round skull, very flat occiput and larger nose. At least two subraces: the very tall Dinarid with short arms and the mature-boreal, medium-sized Anatolid or Armenid (and the somewhat less pronounced Mtebid, with a very low frequency of blood type gene q, in the Caucasus).

I've seen a lot of Upper Paleolithic Irish people who could easily be classified as 'Ladogans.' Billy Corgan (Irish-American) from the Smashing Pumpkins is a perfect example of such a person. He has high prominent cheekbones, a snub-nose, round head, full lips. He seems to be fully UP. :)

Allenson
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 02:01 PM
He said she was part Taurid. :)


Yes, I read that and I've been meaning to ask him what he meant by "Tuarid".

Frans old boy?

Anyway, thanks for your definitions, LG. :)

Agrippa
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Well, what do you say to the Asian Alpinoids like you can find in Tadshiks?

I think that is the basic Pamirid form of the so called Turanid type and the hybrids of this type with Mongolids and the contact race are the Aralids...

If you say Turanids means just this mixed people and the contact race (what many do, I know) how to call this Asian Alpinoids which are clearly more Europid?

Razmig
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Well, what do you say to the Asian Alpinoids like you can find in Tadshiks?

I think that is the basic Pamirid form of the so called Turanid type and the hybrids of this type with Mongolids and the contact race are the Aralids...

If you say Turanids means just this mixed people and the contact race (what many do, I know) how to call this Asian Alpinoids which are clearly more Europid?
I think Nordic+Mongoloid makes a more "Europid" looking Turanid because the nordic factor tends to contain the depigmentation. Wheras in southern regions (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, China etc) they are Med+Mongoloid Turanids, which are darker so they tend to look less Europid. I think they are equally Turanids with different depigmentation factor, and neither should be considered "Europid"

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Yes, I read that and I've been meaning to ask him what he meant by "Tuarid".

Frans old boy?

Anyway, thanks for your definitions, LG. :)

I had the curvoccipital, tall Zonebecher variant of the Bell Beaker type in my mind , which corresponds greatly with Hooton's British Bronze Age type of the Dinaric race, noted for more marked gonials, squarer face form and rufosity...

Taurid comes from the Taurus Mountain range of South Turkey, parallel running with the Mediterrenean coast...The idea was that this race invaded Europe from Hither Asia, they were seen as an important agency in the spread of neolitisation and copper workings.

Allenson
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Thank you Frans! :)

Razmig
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 06:29 PM
I had the curvoccipital, tall Zonebecher variant of the Bell Beaker type in my mind , which corresponds greatly with Hooton's British Bronze Age type of the Dinaric race, noted for more marked gonials, squarer face form and rufosity...

Taurid comes from the Taurus Mountain range of South Turkey, parallel running with the Mediterrenean coast...The idea was that this race invaded Europe from Hither Asia, they were seen as an important agency in the spread of neolitisation and copper workings.
They were not around during those times, there were no half-mongols in Asia Minor yet. Your thinking of Armenoids.

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 06:36 PM
They were not around during those times, there were no half-mongols in Asia Minor yet. Your thinking of Armenoids.

What half-mongols?
I was only summarizing an old idea about the origin of the Taurid races and their involvement with European protohistory.
The Armenoids are indeed associated with the metal foundries in the Carpathians and Balkan region.

Glenlivet
Wednesday, January 7th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Lundman, Systematic Appendix: The Races of Europe;

"III. Taurid Race: mature-boreal, with very high and round skull, very flat occiput and larger nose. At least two subraces: the very tall Dinarid with short arms and the mature-boreal, medium-sized Anatolid or Armenid (and the somewhat less pronounced Mtebid, with a very low frequency of blood type gene q, in the Caucasus)."

Mtebid (the Caucasus relative of the Dinarid) is supposed to be common in Georgia, in the small Northwestern Caucasus Republic. Lundman consider the Armenid being more distant than the Mtebid.







Yes, I read that and I've been meaning to ask him what he meant by "Tuarid".

Frans old boy?

Anyway, thanks for your definitions, LG. :)

Agrippa
Sunday, January 11th, 2004, 12:04 AM
Lundman, Systematic Appendix: The Races of Europe;

"III. Taurid Race: mature-boreal, with very high and round skull, very flat occiput and larger nose. At least two subraces: the very tall Dinarid with short arms and the mature-boreal, medium-sized Anatolid or Armenid (and the somewhat less pronounced Mtebid, with a very low frequency of blood type gene q, in the Caucasus)."

Mtebid (the Caucasus relative of the Dinarid) is supposed to be common in Georgia, in the small Northwestern Caucasus Republic. Lundman consider the Armenid being more distant than the Mtebid.

Well, I always asked myself how to call the Caucasian Dinaroids which I considered being in between Dinarics and Armenids.
Now I know it, even I think Mtebid is a name very unusual and hard to spell. ^^
I said often Caucasid in German but that could be misunderstood by English speakers.

Razmig
Sunday, January 11th, 2004, 12:23 AM
What half-mongols?
I was only summarizing an old idea about the origin of the Taurid races and their involvement with European protohistory.
The Armenoids are indeed associated with the metal foundries in the Carpathians and Balkan region.
I'm sorry I was confusing Taurid with Turanid. :| I misread that post.

torrent
Wednesday, January 14th, 2004, 08:33 PM
[Quote]
In the Hungarian period of settlement we already become aware of the presence of a new physical type associated with the Turks, who formed a minority in the ranks of the Magyars. When we examine the crania of the Petchenegs and Kumans, in both Hungary and Russia21 we see that this new type has become the dominant one among these later Turks to arrive in eastern Europe. In it mongoloid features are sometimes present, but in abeyance. The skulls are very large, of moderate height, extremely brachycephalic, and planoccipital. The foreheads are sloping, browridges sometimes heavy, the faces are very broad, and also very long. The orbits are of moderate height. The noses are narrow, and although often low at the root, frequently project at the bridge, giving indication of a convex profile in the living.

These Kuman skulls, as best represented by Debetz's series which includes fourteen adult males, are much longer and broader than historic Armenian skulls,22 and both longer and broader faced. In height, nose and orbit dimensions, and the tendency to occipital flattening, these two groups are the same. They are also larger than Alpine skulls from central Europe, and far greater in facial dimensions; larger too, than the type B mongoloid crania as represented by a large series of central Asiatic Telengets; much higher vaulted and broader of forehead than the latter, and even a little larger faced.

Thus, the type under consideration, which has become in many regions the characteristic Turkish form, is one which cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category. In size and proportions of the vault, the closest parallel to these skulls is with the British Bronze Age crania; but the resemblance here is far from an identity, for the British faces, although equally broad, are much shorter. In the same sense, the Turkish skulls are reminiscent of the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic brachycephalic types from Europe and North Africa.
[Quote]

This is taurid.

[Quote]
cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category.[Quote]

but many times we simply do it. turks have various types, like cromagnid and combe capelle are blended in other nations.
armenoid racial type depends on agglutinative asiatic language speekers who are called urartu. perhaps many of the mummies in tarim basin who are a blend of eastern european race and mongols are a blend of turkomongols.

there are other type of turks iranoafgan type, pontids, mongols aralid, pamirid(true many turks are pamirid)
[Quote]
They are purely dolichocephalic, with a cranial index of 71.7. On the whole, they are just what one would expect from a Danish Iron Age - Upper Palaeolithic cross, with the latter in the majority, and this explanation agrees well with the archaeological data. The stature, 169.5 cm., fits both types. There is another possibility, however, that they had a strong Corded element. That some Corded blend entered into this mixture was indeed likely, but it is impossible to substitute the Corded for the Palaeolithic element, since the high vault of the former is not in sufficient evidence, and the faces of the Norwegians are wider than either Corded or Nordic.[Quote]
some turks are this type, around %8,25 purely, %25-50 blended. but %75 of turks stay in the type Dinarique accordig to Pittard. UP iranoafgan dinaric mixture would look like a shorter and broader faced iranoafgan(dinaroid?), iam not sure whther Pittard distinguished the differences between the taurid and iranoafgan/UP turks. of course turks have mongoloid ad purely mongoloid types. they all belong to one big linguistic family and a nationality called turks.

torrent
Wednesday, January 14th, 2004, 08:35 PM
In the Hungarian period of settlement we already become aware of the presence of a new physical type associated with the Turks, who formed a minority in the ranks of the Magyars. When we examine the crania of the Petchenegs and Kumans, in both Hungary and Russia21 we see that this new type has become the dominant one among these later Turks to arrive in eastern Europe. In it mongoloid features are sometimes present, but in abeyance. The skulls are very large, of moderate height, extremely brachycephalic, and planoccipital. The foreheads are sloping, browridges sometimes heavy, the faces are very broad, and also very long. The orbits are of moderate height. The noses are narrow, and although often low at the root, frequently project at the bridge, giving indication of a convex profile in the living.

These Kuman skulls, as best represented by Debetz's series which includes fourteen adult males, are much longer and broader than historic Armenian skulls,22 and both longer and broader faced. In height, nose and orbit dimensions, and the tendency to occipital flattening, these two groups are the same. They are also larger than Alpine skulls from central Europe, and far greater in facial dimensions; larger too, than the type B mongoloid crania as represented by a large series of central Asiatic Telengets; much higher vaulted and broader of forehead than the latter, and even a little larger faced.

Thus, the type under consideration, which has become in many regions the characteristic Turkish form, is one which cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category. In size and proportions of the vault, the closest parallel to these skulls is with the British Bronze Age crania; but the resemblance here is far from an identity, for the British faces, although equally broad, are much shorter. In the same sense, the Turkish skulls are reminiscent of the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic brachycephalic types from Europe and North Africa.


This is taurid.



cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category.

but many times we simply do it. turks have various types, like cromagnid and combe capelle are blended in other nations.
armenoid racial type depends on agglutinative asiatic language speekers who are called urartu. perhaps many of the mummies in tarim basin who are a blend of eastern european race and mongols are a blend of turkomongols.

there are other type of turks iranoafgan type, pontids, mongols aralid, pamirid(true many turks are pamirid)


They are purely dolichocephalic, with a cranial index of 71.7. On the whole, they are just what one would expect from a Danish Iron Age - Upper Palaeolithic cross, with the latter in the majority, and this explanation agrees well with the archaeological data. The stature, 169.5 cm., fits both types. There is another possibility, however, that they had a strong Corded element. That some Corded blend entered into this mixture was indeed likely, but it is impossible to substitute the Corded for the Palaeolithic element, since the high vault of the former is not in sufficient evidence, and the faces of the Norwegians are wider than either Corded or Nordic.
some turks are this type, around %8,25 purely, %25-50 blended. but %75 of turks stay within the type Dinarique accordig to Pittard. UP iranoafgan dinaric mixture would look like a shorter and broader faced iranoafgan(dinaroid?), i am not sure whether Pittard distinguished the differences between the taurid and iranoafgan/UP turks. Of course turks have mongoloid and there are purely mongoloid types. they all belong to one big linguistic family and a nationality called the Turks.

Razmig
Wednesday, January 14th, 2004, 09:58 PM
[Quote]
In the Hungarian period of settlement we already become aware of the presence of a new physical type associated with the Turks, who formed a minority in the ranks of the Magyars. When we examine the crania of the Petchenegs and Kumans, in both Hungary and Russia21 we see that this new type has become the dominant one among these later Turks to arrive in eastern Europe. In it mongoloid features are sometimes present, but in abeyance. The skulls are very large, of moderate height, extremely brachycephalic, and planoccipital. The foreheads are sloping, browridges sometimes heavy, the faces are very broad, and also very long. The orbits are of moderate height. The noses are narrow, and although often low at the root, frequently project at the bridge, giving indication of a convex profile in the living.

These Kuman skulls, as best represented by Debetz's series which includes fourteen adult males, are much longer and broader than historic Armenian skulls,22 and both longer and broader faced. In height, nose and orbit dimensions, and the tendency to occipital flattening, these two groups are the same. They are also larger than Alpine skulls from central Europe, and far greater in facial dimensions; larger too, than the type B mongoloid crania as represented by a large series of central Asiatic Telengets; much higher vaulted and broader of forehead than the latter, and even a little larger faced.

Thus, the type under consideration, which has become in many regions the characteristic Turkish form, is one which cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category. In size and proportions of the vault, the closest parallel to these skulls is with the British Bronze Age crania; but the resemblance here is far from an identity, for the British faces, although equally broad, are much shorter. In the same sense, the Turkish skulls are reminiscent of the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic brachycephalic types from Europe and North Africa.
[Quote]

This is taurid.

[Quote]
cannot be disposed of by the simple expedient of placing it in an Armenoid or Dinaric category.[Quote]

but many times we simply do it. turks have various types, like cromagnid and combe capelle are blended in other nations.
armenoid racial type depends on agglutinative asiatic language speekers who are called urartu. perhaps many of the mummies in tarim basin who are a blend of eastern european race and mongols are a blend of turkomongols.

there are other type of turks iranoafgan type, pontids, mongols aralid, pamirid(true many turks are pamirid)
[Quote]
They are purely dolichocephalic, with a cranial index of 71.7. On the whole, they are just what one would expect from a Danish Iron Age - Upper Palaeolithic cross, with the latter in the majority, and this explanation agrees well with the archaeological data. The stature, 169.5 cm., fits both types. There is another possibility, however, that they had a strong Corded element. That some Corded blend entered into this mixture was indeed likely, but it is impossible to substitute the Corded for the Palaeolithic element, since the high vault of the former is not in sufficient evidence, and the faces of the Norwegians are wider than either Corded or Nordic.[Quote]
some turks are this type, around %8,25 purely, %25-50 blended. but %75 of turks stay in the type Dinarique accordig to Pittard. UP iranoafgan dinaric mixture would look like a shorter and broader faced iranoafgan(dinaroid?), iam not sure whther Pittard distinguished the differences between the taurid and iranoafgan/UP turks. of course turks have mongoloid ad purely mongoloid types. they all belong to one big linguistic family and a nationality called turks.
Armenoid and Dinaric is a branch of the Taurid race. And Taurid a branch of the Littoral...am I correct?

Agrippa
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 07:16 PM
Here are some Turanid examples, some pure, some mixed of the type I meant or precisized with "Pamirid" (A more Dinaro-Alpine Europid race), from the book of Ilse Schwidetzky (a scholar from v. Eickstedt) "Turaniden Studien".

I think the base of this race is a special Dinaro-Alpine variant and Asian Alpinoids which mixed later on in many central Asian regions with Mongolid Tungids.

Nordgau
Thursday, May 20th, 2004, 02:54 PM
From Ilse Schwidetzky, Grundlagen der Rassensystematik (Mannheim - Vienna - Zürich 1974), p. 120-122:

Also at the most eastern wing of the European brachymorphics in Asia it are more differences in terminology than in classification which confuse the picture: DENIKER spoke first of a "type touranien". He renamed it later in Race turko-tatar, with Kazakhs and Uzbeks in Turkestan as main representatives, and he placed them to the Mongolids, however with approximation to the Europids. MONTADON (1933) describes them even more emphasized as Europid-Mongolid intermediate race, also v. EICKSTEDT (1934), but now with even more stronger emphasizing of the participation of the Europids, and they are placed with the name Turanids into the greater circle of the Europids. Meanwhile GIUFFRIDA-RUGGERI (1912, 1921) had pointed out that the south of Turkestan was purely Europid, and he seperated here a Pamir race. 1937 then v. EICKSTEDT divided the Turanids in a more Mongolid northern form (Aralids) and a more Europid southern form (Pamirids); but after a more stronger working out of the differences between the Mongolid north and the Europid south of Turkestan (SCHWIDETZKY 1950) the name Turanids went to the Europid form, while for the Mongolid populations of Turkestan no new systematic group was made up, but they were put to the Tungids (v. EICKSTEDT 1952). Hungarian and other anthropologists however kept the name Turanids for the Mongolid-Europid mixed populations of central Asia (LIPTAK 1955). For the south Turkestanic Europids also the name Pamir-Fergana type (YARKHO 1933) is in use, and the Russian anthropologists use today the a bit lengthy name Central Asian Interstream type (comp. GINZBURG, 1966), while the different Latin namings didn't become adopted, just as at other subspecies. They shall be named here just as an example of the terminological chaos which exists because of double and multiple namings in many cases in raceology of man: Homo sapiens indoeuropaeus, var. oxianojaxartensis (OSHANIN); Homo sapiens indoeuropaeus var. turkestanica centralis, subvar. iranoides brachycephalica (OSHANIN); Homo sapiens indoeuropaeus var. parmiro ferganica (YARKHO 1933); Homo sapiens indoeuropaeus brachymorphus pamiriensis (GIUFFRIDA-RUGGERI 1912), Homo sapiens europaeus pamiriensis (v. EICKSTEDT 1937). N. B. According to the rules of nomenclatura there are in fact trinary names designated for subspecies (e. g. homo sapiens europaeus), but no further additions for the naming of infrasubspecifical categories. Thus all of these Latin names cannot claim validity in the sense of nomenclatura rules.

Agrippa
Thursday, May 20th, 2004, 04:03 PM
I myself accepted the view that I mean with Turanids primarily the Europid Alpinoid form of Central Asia but usually say Pamirid and for mixed central Asians I say Aralid.

For Europid-Mongolid mixed people in general I would suggest to use every time another term because Turanid has false implifications and it might be better to use f.e. Eurasians or just Europid-Mongolid...Aralid would be ok too but to say to a Nordid-Sinid person "Turanid" is absurd imo.

I think that link might be useful as well because the pictures are from Schwidetzky:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7180

Scoob
Thursday, May 20th, 2004, 05:13 PM
I myself accepted the view that I mean with Turanids primarily the Europid Alpinoid form of Central Asia but usually say Pamirid and for mixed central Asians I say Aralid.
Are these related to European Alpinoids? If so, has anyone proposed a history of the Alpine race, where/when/how it developed and spread out?

Agrippa
Thursday, May 20th, 2004, 07:47 PM
Are these related to European Alpinoids? If so, has anyone proposed a history of the Alpine race, where/when/how it developed and spread out?

There are just certain similarities to Alpinoids and Dinaroids in this "Turanid" range of Central Asian Europids.

Some say that this similarities are not because of genetic relations in the narrower sence but because of similar developments in the past - selection processes and evolution in the same direction from a different base.

Both seems possible and if I say Alpinoid I dont mean Alpinid but just "similar to Alpinids".
Same for Dinaroid...I didnt say there are Dinarids from Europe which must have migrated to Central Asia, just that they have a similar phenotype and at least loose related to each other.

In the fertile regions, f.e. the Fergana valley lived from early times on farmers with a simple economy especially in the oasis in all of Central Asia.
So it might be not to unrealistic to guess that it is at least possible that similar reductions and trends occured in this Europids as in Central European ones after adopting the new substistence pattern.

BTW: Eickstedt said that such comprehensive history of the Alpine race(s) should be made, but unfortunately in a time this would be possible the interests, money and political correctness is going in another direction.

Nordgau
Monday, May 24th, 2004, 11:46 AM
I think that link might be useful as well because the pictures are from Schwidetzky:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7180

Yeah, I didn't think of that thread. :| I merge them, that makes sense...

Evolved
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 12:54 AM
..

Agrippa
Friday, May 28th, 2004, 01:53 AM
..

Would be an Aralid type (Europid-Mongolid of Central Asia which are mostly Tungid+Pamirid) or just Europid-Mongolid.

Kenan
Tuesday, December 28th, 2004, 09:06 PM
The first pic is a Turkish/Turanian/Hun Emperor called Mete Kagan/khan/kaan
He has green eyes, typical turanid look...

The peep on second pic are: Mete kagan, Dede korkut, Atatürk. All of them are Turanid/Turkish

Agrippa
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Repost of some images:
To see different grades (weaker Europid influence if going down, first has an influence of a dolichocephalic form, most likely Iranid-Eastmediterranid) of Nordmongolids (Tungo-Sibirid) with Europid admixture this plate of Turanids ("Aralid"):
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4813/turaniden25sl.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turaniden25sl.jpg)

Relatively unmixed Turanids (Pamirids) of Central Asia with just weak traces:
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7281/turaniden17rv.th.jpg (http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turaniden17rv.jpg)

Both from I. Schwidetzky, Turaniden Studien.