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Draugr
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 11:26 PM
There is also the group of "black irish" who have dark hair and eyes, but otherwise typical irish features and pigmentation. Remember that there is, in every group I am aware of, a small atypical minority; and not every northblood experienced the same amount of depigmentation.

The black Irish have Basque blood from when the Spainish Armada washed up on their shores.

anonymaus
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 11:29 PM
The black Irish have Basque blood from when the Spainish Armada washed up on their shores.

Ah! Thanks. I had never heard the true origin of the type before. :beer-smil

SouthernBoy
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 12:23 AM
Care to cite a source, Draugr? The "Black Irish" are the dark-haired types found all over the British Isles, usually Insular Mediterranid, Nord-Atlantid, and Paleo-Atlantid. :icon1:

Von Braun
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 12:28 AM
The black Irish have Basque blood from when the Spainish Armada washed up on their shores.

I've read that this is a myth. For one, it is doubtful that the Basque were mainstream enough to participate in the Spanish navy (though I could be wrong). Second, there is no doubt that the Atlanto-Mediterranean features of the British Isles region date back to well before the 16th century.

anonymaus
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 02:06 AM
edit: Thanks for the split, Jonas :beer1:

Draugr
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 02:30 AM
Mark Kurlansky's "The Basque History of the World." The Basques were the majority of the sailors in the Spainish navy as they were some of the best seamen in Spain. Megellan didn't finish his circumnavigation globe a Basque named Juan Sebastian de Elcano did.
As far as all the dark haired people of the British Isles, who do you think was living there before the Celtic invasions?

Stig NHF
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 08:22 AM
Are you insane? All the dark ones across Europa are just less mixed with the recent indo-europeans invasions. They are old europeans.

Von Braun
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 05:53 PM
As far as all the dark haired people of the British Isles, who do you think was living there before the Celtic invasions?

The Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

Triglav
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 07:09 PM
The Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
And prior to that - Cro-Magnids.

anonymaus
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 07:14 PM
So the Black Irish have A-M admixture? What about that paper regarding "The Hebrew-Celtic Connection"? Was it goat droppings or could they have had genetic influence during their time there?

Draugr
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 09:15 PM
The Basques have the highest percentage of Rh negative blood (over 50%) as can be seen in this chart we can reasonably plot that factor and guess where most of the pre-IE peoples were.

The Horned God
Tuesday, March 1st, 2005, 05:00 AM
Here's (http://www.irish-nationalism.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1883) a disscussion, with intresting pictures, from over on Irish-Nationalism which raises the idea of the Irish and the Basques belonging to a "Proto-European race" based on the R1B(also known as HG1) Haplogroup whch 80-98% of irish belong to and would sugest that the Black Irish are Iberians of ancient origin, not yet adapted to the more norhern latitude of Ireland.

It also sugests to my mind, that the darker look common in southern europe is due to 20% or more North-African admixture in these areas, I could be wrong but that's what the map appears to indicate.Their is certainly a north-south cline in Iberia of Hg 9(Bedouin 66%) and Hg 21 (North-African 77%).




Haplogroup map;
http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

Here's a page describing somthing about the movments of the various tribes of peoples behind the haplogroup designation during and after the Ice-age.
http://home.comcast.net/~libpjr1/haplogroupI.htm



During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.

R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux [url]http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1b.

BTW Haplogroups are male Y-chromosome groups and cannot give the whole story, they tell nothing about the female lineages, and though one would expect the females to be of the same or geneticly similar tribe as their mates this is not always the case. :rolleyes: