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Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 12:40 PM
Note: This question applies to all European ethnicities, and the word "German" can be substitited for "Swedish", "Norwegian", "English", "Slovenian" or whatever.

I would like to ask an important question:

Who is to be considered an ethnic German?

The answer to this question is vital to our understanding of who/what needs to be preserved or supported, and who our actual kin are. Once I have received a few answers, I might make a poll. After that, the result of this questionnaire will be taken to a next level in asking other questions, or stimulating other debates.

Is a German someone who has a German passport? Or someone who has two "German" (whatever that is) parents? Or four "German" grandparents? Or only one non-German great-grandparent? How does the concept of ethnicity work?

As I've said, substitute "German" for "Swedish" if you are Swedish.

Stig NHF
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 01:44 PM
The way I see it, someone who speaks the language of the land and is vastly genetically germanic. For example, someone with 3 german grandparents and one non-german grandparent might also be considered german if he is of good racial stock. Nobody with non-white ancestors we are aware of will ever be considered german and same with his descendants. Purity of the blood is purity of the blood. For example a dutch person that immigrates to Norway will in the next generation be "Norwegian of dutch ancestry" and in the third generation will probably be Norwegian in every way. If he is of more dubious ancestry, Spanish or Italian or something it might take longer. It depends on the individual characters racial qualities I'd say. There are people living in Norway that are of very dubious origin. People so dark that if they are Norwegian the whole definition will be too broad and its meaningless. If you are blackeyed and with black curly hair, short of statue and in other ways racially dubious, sorry you are not Norwegian. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. So all in all, at least 3 germanic grandparents and integrated into society. Passports mean nothing.

FadeTheButcher
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 02:04 PM
The salience of ethnic identity in Germany has waxed and waned from time to time. The Germany of Goethe or Luther was a very different place from the Germany of Hitler. This is true of virtually all nations.

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 02:11 PM
The way I see it, someone who speaks the language of the land and is vastly genetically germanic. For example, someone with 3 german grandparents and one non-german grandparent might also be considered german if he is of good racial stock. Nobody with non-white ancestors we are aware of will ever be considered german and same with his descendants. Purity of the blood is purity of the blood. For example a dutch person that immigrates to Norway will in the next generation be "Norwegian of dutch ancestry" and in the third generation will probably be Norwegian in every way. If he is of more dubious ancestry, Spanish or Italian or something it might take longer. It depends on the individual characters racial qualities I'd say. There are people living in Norway that are of very dubious origin. People so dark that if they are Norwegian the whole definition will be too broad and its meaningless. If you are blackeyed and with black curly hair, short of statue and in other ways racially dubious, sorry you are not Norwegian. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. So all in all, at least 3 germanic grandparents and integrated into society. Passports mean nothing.
I like your assessment of the matter Stig, and actually agree fully. :)

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 02:12 PM
The salience of ethnic identity in Germany has waxed and waned from time to time. The Germany of Goethe or Luther was a very different place from the Germany of Hitler. This is true of virtually all nations.
But I am not talking about collective identity or national identity. I'm talking about individuals.

cosmocreator
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 08:52 PM
German to me is Falish. All other types were invader at some point in time. Who is a Swede, Norwegian, Dane, Brit is more difficult to answer.

I'll have to give this some thought.

DreamWalker
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
The way I see it, someone who speaks the language of the land and is vastly genetically germanic. For example, someone with 3 german grandparents and one non-german grandparent might also be considered german if he is of good racial stock. Nobody with non-white ancestors we are aware of will ever be considered german and same with his descendants. Purity of the blood is purity of the blood. For example a dutch person that immigrates to Norway will in the next generation be "Norwegian of dutch ancestry" and in the third generation will probably be Norwegian in every way. If he is of more dubious ancestry, Spanish or Italian or something it might take longer. It depends on the individual characters racial qualities I'd say. There are people living in Norway that are of very dubious origin. People so dark that if they are Norwegian the whole definition will be too broad and its meaningless. If you are blackeyed and with black curly hair, short of statue and in other ways racially dubious, sorry you are not Norwegian. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. So all in all, at least 3 germanic grandparents and integrated into society. Passports mean nothing.

I disagree. True, passport means nothing, but neither should "integrated into society". There are individuals "integrated into society" with 3 Germanic grandparents but the fourth is African, this person is not a German, not Germanic, and not Nordish.

I use the expansion details of Francis Owen's "The Germanic People" as a reference. There were Germanic Lombards to N Italy, Ostrogoths to Central Italy, Scots, Picts, Angles, Saxons, Jutes to England, the Rus migrated to the East, more Ostrogoths to what is now Ukraine, Visigoths to Spain, etc. And of course the much later migrations to N and S America, Australia, S Africa, and Russian-controlled Asia.

Eventually, DNA testing should probably be employed.

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 09:33 PM
I disagree. True, passport means nothing, but neither should "integrated into society". There are individuals "integrated into society" with 3 Germanic grandparents but the fourth is African, this person is not a German, not Germanic, and not Nordish.

You haven't read Stig's post properly.

DreamWalker
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 09:37 PM
You haven't read Stig's post properly.

Quite possibly, his "integrated into society" phrase is ambiguous, at least to me. There are different ways to be integrated.

Lenny
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 09:53 PM
If I may ask the Europeans here: What do you consider North Americans of German ancestry to be? There are quite a few Americans whose ancestors were Germans (ironically, some Midwestern cities in America have a higher percentage of people with German ancestry than come cities in Germany today!). Are these "German-Americans" considered to be Germans by yourselves?

And what of the Americans of Scandinavian ancestry like myself ? Do you consider us to be Scandinavians since our ancestors came from Scandinavia, even though we live in the USA and do not speak a Scandinavian language (save a few phrases that we may have picked up from grandparents)?

(6% of the America's white non-Hispanic population is of Scandinavian ancestry-- about 12 million in all.)

Zyklop
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 10:18 PM
After all, the German people will decide who his a German and not some Americans.


If I may ask the Europeans here: What do you consider North Americans of German ancestry to be? There are quite a few Americans whose ancestors were Germans (ironically, some Midwestern cities in America have a higher percentage of people with German ancestry than come cities in Germany today!). Are these "German-Americans" considered to be Germans by yourselves?
If they identify with Germany and not America they are ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche).

Lenny
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 10:20 PM
If they identify with Germany and not America they are ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche).What if they identify with both? Then are you saying that they are not Germans?

cosmocreator
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 10:23 PM
After all, the German people will decide who his a German and not some Americans.


But there's the catch 22. Who are these Germans who decide who is German? :scratch:

Dr. Brandt
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 10:55 PM
But there's the catch 22. Who are these Germans who decide who is German? :scratch:

Wouldn't you like to know? In any case it sure isn't you or any other foreigner.

Dr. Brandt
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:05 PM
What if they identify with both? Then are you saying that they are not Germans?

You mean like the US-Jews who identefy themselves as "Americans" and "Israelis"?
If I were to get a penny for every yank of german ancestry that wen't to War against Germany, I would be a rich man.
True Germans know no dual loyalty. They either are 100% for Germany or they are nothing.
German is a matter of blood, heart and mind. You have to prove every day of your life through your thoughts and passion that you are German. You have to live it. Most of todays "Germans" wouldn't even be considered as such by old standards. They are just "Mass", cosmopolitical rable that just happen to speak german. Traitors.


If I may ask the Europeans here: What do you consider North Americans of German ancestry to be?

Offspring of Traitors.

Stig NHF
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:22 PM
Ah well, spreading germanic genes to the New World isn't exactly treachery. But I see your point there, the biggest portion of white blood in America is german and America was very eager to go to war. But we don't live in 1940 though, so past actions doesn't really mean too much in that sense. As long as Americans share my loathing for parts of Americas history, especially from the 30's and onwards I have no grudge against them. Thats just petty nationalism and completely meaningless.

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:24 PM
Wouldn't you like to know? In any case it sure isn't you or any other foreigner.
Well, why don't you tell us then your opinion, instead of foaming at the mouth and ruining my thread again?

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:26 PM
True Germans know no dual loyalty.
How about answering my question? What is a "true German"? I would sincerely like to know that. It is all fine and dandy ranting about "true Germans", but if you are unable to define what a true German is, then your posts are meaningless.

Dr. Brandt
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:33 PM
How about answering my question? What is a "true German"? I would sincerely like to know that. It is all fine and dandy ranting about "true Germans", but if you are unable to define what a true German is, then your posts are meaningless.

Can you read?

German is a matter of blood, heart and mind.

Hitler, Bismarck, Frederick and the many Soldiers that gave their lives for the Faterland are TRUE Germans.
Kohl and Schröder are not.

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:35 PM
Can you read?

German is a matter of blood, heart and mind.
I'm sorry but that is too vague.

Dr. Brandt
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:40 PM
I'm sorry but that is too vague.

Ask a cat why it is a cat? :rolleyes:

Example: Sören Kam. Danish SS-Officer. Fought for Germany/Europe. Was sentenced to death in Denmark. He settled in Germany, married, got German citizenship. (If he has children, then they are German). He is a 100% German! He bled for Germany, he decided to live and die here. He has become German by embracing our culture/language and by his willingness to defend our country.

Example2: Gerhard Schröder, Chanclor of the "Federal Republik". His Father fell on the Eastfront. He decided to become a marxist. He is selling Germany out every day of his miserable life. He is a "German" on paper, just like any nigger immigrant.

Northern Paladin
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:51 PM
Ancestory wise. 50% Scandinavian 25% English 25% German.

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:51 PM
Ask a cat why it is a cat? :rolleyes:
A cat is a cat because its parents, grandparent and great-grandparents, even to 1,000 generations back, were cats. What is a German, then?

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:52 PM
Ancestory wise. 50% Scandinavian 25% English 25% German.
What are you on about?

Loki
Sunday, January 2nd, 2005, 11:58 PM
Example: Sören Kam. Danish SS-Officer. Fought for Germany/Europe. Was sentenced to death in Denmark. He settled in Germany, married, got German citizenship. (If he has children, then they are German). He is a 100% German! He bled for Germany, he decided to live and die here. German ethnicity is inheritable and has nothing to do with politics. Or has it?

Right, so according to your example above a Dane who marries a German woman, and settles in Germany (effectively culturalizing into a German family) will produce offspring who can be considered ethnic Germans. That sounds fine to me. Can you give a few more hypothetical examples? How about a Pole marrying a German woman and producing offpring in Germany? Or a Frenchman? A Turk... ? Where do you personally draw the line? With Germanic people culturalizing and assimilating into the German gene pool?


Example2: Gerhard Schröder, Chanclor of the "Federal Republik". His Father fell on the Eastfront. He decided to become a marxist. He is selling Germany out every day of his miserable life. He is a "German" on paper, just like any nigger immigrant.Is he an ethnic German? I am not talking about politics here. That is a different subject altogether.

Northern Paladin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:02 AM
What are you on about?

Isn't this an ancestory thread? I am not sure what you mean.

Loki
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:07 AM
Isn't this an ancestory thread? I am not sure what you mean.
I am trying to determine how ethnicity is perceived in certain countries of Europe, not asking people for their geneaologies. :laugh:

Northern Paladin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:12 AM
I see. I'll read threads more carefully before I post next time. As for Who is German agree with Stig.

friedrich braun
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:46 AM
Anyone who's of Northern or Central European ancestory and self-identifies as German. It's the only viable definition, I believe.

(A united Germany exists since Bismarck proclaimed the German Empire on 18 January 1871.)

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 01:10 AM
Offspring of Traitors.

You are the traitor if you would betray all the German-Americans.

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 01:14 AM
Dr. Brandt's definition of who is "German" is whoever the hell he wants to be. There are no criterion that aren't political.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:20 AM
Offspring of Traitors.

WTF?

My ancestors came to the Midwestern United States after the Russian government betrayed the promises extended to their forebears when the latter were coaxed to bring Germandom to South Russia. I'm proud to say NONE of my direct forebears have served the Jewnited States in the military. They did what so many Germans do best: work the land in a harmonious relationship.

Only an idiot today would put Reichsdeutsche "patriotism" before Aryan Racialism.

Perhaps Dr. Brandt needs to give himself an injection? :biggrin:

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:24 AM
America was very eager to go to war.

That is NOT correct.

The vast majority of Americans did NOT want war with either Germany OR Japan. Franklin D. Rosenfeld even promised that their sons would not die in foreign wars to get re-elected.

However, Rosenfeld maneuvered the Japs into lashing out in self-defense, knowing full-well that was the ONLY way he could manipulate America into going to war against Germany, the PRIMARY target. The Great Man's honoring the Japs with a declaration of war against the USA was exactly what Rosenfeld and his Jew-Bolshevik regime wanted.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:26 AM
You are the traitor if you would betray all the German-Americans.

The interesting point for "Dr. Brandt" is that he himself is the "offspring of traitors" who refused to follow the orders of the Fuehrer to fight to the death.

Of course I'm being facetious, but if he insists on using unreasonable and irrational standards against us, he needs to be slapped with the same "standards."

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:36 AM
Obviously, the standards erected by the Great Man and his Team during the Third Reich should be followed. Keep in mind that holders of foreign passports could still be considered Germans by the Reich government; witness, the VDA (Verein für das Deutschtum im Ausland e.V.). Aryan racial ancestry mattered -- "German or kindred blood" -- not native language or homeland. If one looks like, acts like, thinks like and speaks like a German...

However, I must say, that extreme "national patriotism" in this time of dire emergency is dangerous and quite foolish. While each European nation should continue to maintain its overall bio-cultural integrity, the focus has to remain on the RACE itself. Every Aryan regardless of homeland, language, religion, or culture is valuable for our survival.

"We must hang together or we shall surely hang separately."

-- Benjamin Franklin

Oskorei
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:29 AM
Anyone who's of Northern or Central European ancestory and self-identifies as German. It's the only viable definition, I believe.

(A united Germany exists since Bismarck proclaimed the German Empire on 18 January 1871.)

Agree. The same applies for Sweden; someone who is racially from one of the historical Scandinavian sub-races, and who shares Swedish language and culture, is a Swede.

SkyMesa
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 11:43 AM
I am from Canada so I say that I am Canadian, but I identify more with my Icelandic heritage. When someone asks "what are you?", I say I'm Icelandic, not I'm Canadian. Any immigrant can be Canadian, just like any immigrant can be German, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. I think you are what your "roots" are and not where you may live. I hope that made sense!

Zyklop
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 11:47 AM
What if they identify with both? Then are you saying that they are not Germans?
Considering that the United States helped defeating Germany in two World Wars and still station occupation troops in my country those who identify with both are worthless hypocrites.

Zyklop
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 11:51 AM
But there's the catch 22. Who are these Germans who decide who is German? :scratch:
Should we ever get an influental nationalistic movement in Germany those who have done most for this cause will define the standards.

Loki
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 11:56 AM
Should we ever get an influental nationalistic movement in Germany those who have done most for this cause will define the standards.Yes, but are we not able right now to identify who ethnic Germans are? Or is this question too difficult?

Zyklop
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:07 PM
Yes, but are we not able right now to identify who ethnic Germans are? Or is this question too difficult?
Those whose ancestors, as far as they are genealogically traceable, are by majority belonging to the German cultural group, (i.e. language, family names,) demonstrably have been settling in German territories (including German colonies outside the German borders) and can - to the best knowledge - be judged to be free of non-European influence.

Tozoshin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:28 PM
Loki
Good thread. Something which seems so simple, so self explanatory, yet when put on paper is next to impossible to clearly define. Alot of it is based on emotion, not necessarily reason - I see the beginning of German history with the Germanic tribes - but you could go endlessly into ancestry...With the enormous amount of movement the Germanic tribes partook in, it is reasonable to assume that some foreign elements were assimilated from time to time. But a certain common behaviour, values, way of seeing the world, language - culture if you will - emerged. But to the point - there is a certain emotional picture to it - one does have a type of box which a 'german' (facial features, body type, behaviour) fits in to - if he does not, there would be always a certain amount of discrimination against him - no matter what his ancestry. Written in law I probably would agree that a person would need 3 german grandparents to be considered german (coming from a non-germanic group such as german jews or poles - but it would still be very much a case by case thing - for example Helmut Schimdt, the former Kanzler, has a Jewish grandparent, but is fully integrated as a German). Personally if someone told me they had some polish ancestry they would most likely lose some status in my eyes. Germanic parts in Europe (northern Italy,northern France, England, Scandanivia etc - they are racially almost the same - it is only a question of whether they would be willing to accept German culture or not. For example Berlin used to 50% Hugenot - but were fully assimilated within a very short period of time. Outside of the Occident, any admixtue would be very difficult to accept.
But the word German not only denotes a certain ancestral background, but also a certain cultural orentation

Tozoshin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:41 PM
Example2: Gerhard Schröder, Chanclor of the "Federal Republik". His Father fell on the Eastfront. He decided to become a marxist. He is selling Germany out every day of his miserable life. He is a "German" on paper, just like any nigger immigrant.

Just because you disagree with his politics does not mean he stops being a German. What nationality would you describe him as being? Such a policy could only be described as Willkuer. I would most certainly describe him as a German, but one not worthy of citizenship.

Tozoshin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:47 PM
norcalnative1971
I'm proud to say NONE of my direct forebears have served the Jewnited States in the military.

If they felt so strongly about the concept of Germany, why didn't they get off their collective asses and fight for Germany, instead of sitting in comfort and security in the US?

Btw if you believe so strongly in this 'Aryan' thing, why don't you stop collecting checks from the social office and head off to Rwanda ( sorry typo - Rhodesia) or South Africa and fight it out? Seems you are biting the hand that feeds you

Tozoshin
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 12:59 PM
Those whose ancestors, as far as they are genealogically traceable, are by majority belonging to the German cultural group, (i.e. language, family names,) demonstrably have been settling in German territories (including German colonies outside the German borders) and can - to the best knowledge - be judged to be free of non-European influence.

But what is a person of german ancestry worth if he is not willing to accept the responsibilty of being a German? You have to EARN citizenship - it denotes responsibilities towards the nation and fellow germans - if he is unwilling to support those responsibilities what real worth does he have? It would be the same as having a friend who leaves you in the lurch at the first hint of trouble. Useless

Dr. Brandt
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:14 PM
WTF?

My ancestors came to the Midwestern United States after the Russian government betrayed the promises extended to their forebears when the latter were coaxed to bring Germandom to South Russia. I'm proud to say NONE of my direct forebears have served the Jewnited States in the military. They did what so many Germans do best: work the land in a harmonious relationship.

Only an idiot today would put Reichsdeutsche "patriotism" before Aryan Racialism.

Perhaps Dr. Brandt needs to give himself an injection? :biggrin:

Perhaps you might want to read this: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=1444#post1444

Oh, you can't read German? What a pitty! The law is very clear about who is citizen and German and who is not.


Just because you disagree with his politics does not mean he stops being a German. What nationality would you describe him as being? Such a policy could only be described as Willkuer. I would most certainly describe him as a German, but one not worthy of citizenship.

Treitschke and Paul de Lagarde have written in the past, that if you don't feel or behave as German, then you are not a German. It's not enough to be born here and speak the language. Most Germans of today will tell you that they realy dont care to much about their nationalety. They will rather tell you they are "Europeans" and "Human beings" before telling you they are German. "What are you?" - Oh I am Saxon/Baverian/Holsteiner" - "And then?" - "Then I am European".

>>Den Charakter einer schweren Ehrenstrafe, gleichsam eine Ächtung, hat dagegen die Maßnahme, die der § 2 des Gesetzes vorsieht: Die Aberkennung der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit. Sie kann verhängt werden gegen Reichsangehörige, die sich im Ausland aufhalten, „sofern sie durch Verhalten, das gegen die Pflicht zur Treue gegen Reich und Volk verstößt, die deutschen Belange geschädigt haben. Das gleiche gilt für Reichsangehörige, die einer Rückkehraufforderung nicht folge leisten, die der Reichsminister des Innern unter Hinweis auf diese Vorschrift an sie gerichtet hat.„ Zur Verschärfung der Wirkung ist hier auch Beschlagnahme des Vermögens vorgesehen, da die Betroffenen zum Großen Teil nur noch gegen Wirkungen materieller Art empfindlich sind und eine Ehrenstrafe allein von ihnen nur belächelt werden würde. Die Aberkennung mußte eingeführt werden zur Abstrafung der volks- und vaterlandsfeindlichen Elemente, die vom Auslande her alles deutsche Wesen öffentlich in den Schmutz ziehen und sich als Landesverräter betätigen. Diese Ehrenstrafe wird vom Reichsminister des Innern im Einvernehmen mit dem Auswärtigen Amt ausgesprochen; die Entscheidung muß, um rechtswirksam zu werden, im Reichsanzeiger veröffentlicht werden. Die Erstreckung auf Familienangehörige tritt nicht ohne weiteres ein, sie muß vielmehr ausdrücklich beschlossen werden. Aus den wesentlich feierlichen Begleitumständen der Aberkennung geht schon hervor, daß diese Ehrenstrafe nicht durch Anwendung auf Gesindel aller möglichster Art abgenutzt, sondern daß sie für Schädlinge besonders bezeichnender Art aufgespart werden soll.<<<

It's very clear, that if you behaved ungerman and smear the honour of the Fatherland, your citizenship could be renounced. Once these laws will become effective again, there will be thausands of Germans that will cease to be such overnight. People who leave Germany, just because they wan't to lead a more compfrtable life can not be considered German anymore. If a bigger car and more money mean more to them than their culture, language and home soil, then they weren't worthy to be born as Germans in the first place. Why should I see them as equals to those who fell for Germany in the past Wars?

The laws of the Reich are the only valid ones for me. They state very clearly who is to be considered German or not. Not without reason were most traitors before they were sentenced to death -stripped of all their rights as Germans and "Expelled from the German Volkcommunity" and "Declared forever honourless".

I always find it amusing when yanks tell us "I am 25 % German". Oh realy? How can one tell? Do they speak, think, behave and act German one quarter of the day? Does that mean they speak German 6 hours a day and the rest in english or whatever language the rest of their heritage is made of? When they sleep, do they dream in German? Do they think about Germany all the time and how it is doing? Did they even take notice of the Floods we had several years back?
One could just as well claim "I am 25% Kakadoo", - it would have as much impact and meaning. Nill.

Loki
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:26 PM
I think we are getting the wrong end of the stick here... I am not discussing citizenship requirements, but ethnicity. Someone can be an ethnic German, regardless of what the German state's opinion of the person is. Being a member of an ethnic group has nothing to do with politics.

Dr. Brandt
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:33 PM
I think we are getting the wrong end of the stick here... I am not discussing citizenship requirements, but ethnicity. Someone can be an ethnic German, regardless of what the German state's opinion of the person is. Being a member of an ethnic group has nothing to do with politics.

Ethnicity not only lives in blood, but in culture and language. Claiming that you have german ancestry and not speaking a word german or having the slightest Idea about it's history, culture and development isn't enough. How "German" was Eisenhower, who massmurdered Millions of Germans? How "German" is Donald Rumsfeld? (His ancestors come from Bremen). How "German" was the Russian General Rennenkampf who fought against Germany in WW1? How "German" is General Schwarzkopf? How "German" is the USAAF-General Spaatz who bombed our country to ashes?
How "German" was Chanclor Willy Brandt who was a spy for the soviets and returned to Germany in norwegian uniform as occupant? How "German" were Piek, Ulbricht, Honecker, who built the Berlin-Wall as willing puppets of the soviet occupants?
Do you want to put all these "Germans" on the same level as Hindenburg, Rudel, Peiper, Himmler?

Von Braun
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:42 PM
Genes, not culture, are the bottomline for one of the racialist worldview (which agrees with recent scientific findings (twin studies) that genes are more important).

Say Individual # 1 is from one mile east of the German-French border, and Individual # 2 is from one mile West of the German-French border. Furthermore, say both people are so genetically close that they could be mistaken as siblings if a blood test comparison were made (any two people being identical, other than identical twins, is more unlikely than getting struck by lighting 100 times in a lifetime, so that is why I exclude actual identicalness from this scenario). Anyway, to say that Individual # 1 is "better" solely based on where he lives and where his ancestors lived is foolish. What mystical thing, [read: non-existent thing :scratch:] makes Individual # 1 so different than Individual # 2? Their languages and surnames are a little different, so what we have is a micro- environmental difference in the lives of these two people. Newsflash: Racial egalitarians say that environment matters much more than genes matter, i.e., racial elitists (us) who become hung up on culture (and especially racial elitists in the colonial West, like North America or Australia, etc.) who become hung up on a culture of their ancestors (an Alpine with U.S. citizenship of German descent vs. an Alpine of U.S. citizenship of Swiss descent, who think that they are somehow different than each other), are agreeing with the enemy on an issue without even realizing it! This does not make them with the enemy, it's more like these people on our side are taking a position, the implications of which are

1) culture is more important than genes (which is what determines race, and we are racialists afterall

2) culture somehow mystically stays with a White person in colonial Western countries, to the point where you have U.S. racialists making a big deal over having ancestors from Denmark versus ancestors from Holland (hypothetically, being pure Halstatt in both cases), for example

and thus are indirectly conceding a point to the enemy which isn't even true.

I see all racially non-mixed people from western Europe (including southern Scandanavia) from northern Spain to the British Isles as being "Germanic" and/or "Celtic," or "Celto-Germanic," if there are those of us who insist on having a culture-based label. I'd prefer to call us "unmixed Whites," "Aryans," or simply "western Europeans."

Loki
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:43 PM
Ethnicity not only lives in blood, but in culture and language. Claiming that you have german ancestry and not speaking a word german or haveng the slightest Idea about it's hisoty, culture and development isn't enough. How "German" was Eisenhower, who massmurdered Millions of Germans? How "German" is Donald Rumsfeld? (His ancestors come from Bremen).
My point is that if, say, Rumsfeld has a son who is born in Germany, grows up there are only speak German, becomes a National Socialist ( :biggrin: ) and culturally German, would be considered an ethnic German, regardless of his father's leanings? Perhaps! BUT! Would a Turkish individual born in Germany, culturally German, and supportive of Hitler, be then considered ethnic German too? No!! Why? Because it is all in the blood. Race is the most important. Traitors can have patriotic children, and vice versa. Political stance does not create an ethnic group. Or does it?

Dr. Brandt
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 02:49 PM
My point is that if, say, Rumsfeld has a son who is born in Germany, grows up there are only speak German, becomes a National Socialist ( :biggrin: ) and culturally German, would be considered an ethnic German, regardless of his father's leanings? Perhaps! BUT! Would a Turkish individual born in Germany, culturally German, and supportive of Hitler, be then considered ethnic German too? No!! Why? Because it is all in the blood. Race is the most important. Traitors can have patriotic children, and vice versa. Political stance does not create an ethnic group. Or does it?

To be quite honest - neither Rumsfelds Son (if he has one) nor the Turk can be considered German. I don't wan't neither of them here.

The Laws are very clear on the Race issue. Thus it isn't even a question to me. No allien Race can be German - ever. But Race alone doesn't make a German.

Dr. Brandt
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:08 PM
Genes, not culture, are the bottomline for one of the racialist worldview (which agrees with recent scientific findings (twin studies) that genes are more important).

Say Individual # 1 is from one mile east of the German-French border, and Individual # 2 is from one mile West of the German-French border. Furthermore, say both people are so genetically close that they could be mistaken as siblings if a blood test comparison were made (any two people being identical, other than identical twins, is more unlikely than getting struck by lighting 100 times in a lifetime, so that is why I exclude actual identicalness from this scenario). Anyway, to say that Individual # 1 is "better" solely based on where he lives and where his ancestors lived is foolish. What mystical thing, [read: non-existent thing :scratch:] makes Individual # 1 so different than Individual # 2? Their languages and surnames are a little different, so what we have is a micro- environmental difference in the lives of these two people. Newsflash: Racial egalitarians say that environment matters much more than genes matter, i.e., racial elitists (us) who become hung up on culture (and especially racial elitists in the colonial West, like North America or Australia, etc.) who become hung up on a culture of their ancestors (an Alpine with U.S. citizenship of German descent vs. an Alpine of U.S. citizenship of Swiss descent, who think that they are somehow different than each other), are agreeing with the enemy on an issue without even realizing it! This does not make them with the enemy, it's more like these people on our side are taking a position, the implications of which are

1) culture is more important than genes (which is what determines race, and we are racialists afterall

2) culture somehow mystically stays with a White person in colonial Western countries, to the point where you have U.S. racialists making a big deal over having ancestors from Denmark versus ancestors from Holland (hypothetically, being pure Halstatt in both cases), for example

and thus are indirectly conceding a point to the enemy which isn't even true.

I see all racially non-mixed people from western Europe (including southern Scandanavia) from northern Spain to the British Isles as being Germanic and/or Celtic, or Celto-Germanic, if there are those of us who insist on having a culture-based label. I'd prefer to call us "unmixed Whites," "Aryans," or simply "western Europeans."

Um...... this is about "Who is German" and not "Who is white". Do you think we Germans with OUR great culture and history wan't to be thrown into one pot with ...ROFL........ Polaks and Czechs? Yeah, Polaks are white.. and I am certain there are Polaks that look absolutely divine and far better than some Germans. Still, the (true) German will always be my closest brother, before anyone else.
Why is Germany disintegrating and turning into a "multucultural" swamp? Because the enemy has cut us off from our roots and culture. Because we have been "americanized". If any "culture" is considered as good (or even better) as our own, then how can you expect our people to want to preserve anything at all? With your reasoning, what would it then matter if a white, nationalist poland would conquer entire Germany and over the centurys make us all to Polaks? Horray - our Race is saved! :rolleyes:
I wan't my old Germany back, like it was before the War. I want to be able to see what a real Germany looks like and not this artificial entity with it's disgusting culture and architecure. Germany isn't a "mystical thing".

friedrich braun
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:18 PM
To be quite honest - neither Rumsfelds Son (if he has one) nor the Turk can be considered German. I don't wan't neither of them here.

The Laws are very clear on the Race issue. Thus it isn't even a question to me. No allien Race can be German - ever. But Race alone doesn't make a German.

If, in the hypothetical scenario, Rumsfeld's son is a German NS and self-identifies as such I wouldn't have a problem considering him German; and I couldn't see a basis for refusing him membership in the German community.

I'd even go further, I'll take a pro-German Ezra Pound over unpatriotic or lukewarm Germans any time.

Louky
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 03:30 PM
It's genes, genes, genes.

Most people consider the British to be Germanic and by the same logic, any American, Canadian, South African, Australian, (and other colonial) who is descended from British stock, Germanic, or Skandinavian stock, etc., is also Germanic. After all, if my history of the Anglo-Saxon-Jute invasion and peopling of the British Isles is accurate, the British Isles were the New World of the fifth century.

The Germanic peoples have wandered all over the earth searching for living space, and up until the Fall of the West, have even set their sites on the stars!

One could even take the argument that the sons and daughters of the wandering Germanics are even more Germanic than those who stayed behind, embodying as the colonials do the mental and spiritual characteristics of adventure and invention that wells up from the Germanic gene pool.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:03 PM
If they felt so strongly about the concept of Germany, why didn't they get off their collective asses and fight for Germany, instead of sitting in comfort and security in the US?


I never said they identified with Germany, but rather as Ethnic Germans.

I'm sure they'd have been allowed to leave for Germany during the war.

Idiot.




Btw if you believe so strongly in this 'Aryan' thing, why don't you stop collecting checks from the social office and head off to Rwanda or South Africa and fight it out? Seems you are biting the hand that feeds you

Rwanda?

As for being a welfare freeloader, that would most likely be you, since I'm a businessman.

As for South Africa, I recognize that their situation is hopeless, and our duty lies in aiding them to escape that hell-hole "country," which I have been doing.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:05 PM
Perhaps you might want to read this: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=1444#post1444

Oh, you can't read German? What a pitty! The law is very clear about who is citizen and German and who is not.


I can read it well enough to know what it says generally.

I'm not a fan of legal codes, and judge German ethnicity on what Hitler and the Reich government DID rather than what some lawyer wrote down.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:12 PM
Ethnicity not only lives in blood, but in culture and language. Claiming that you have german ancestry and not speaking a word german or having the slightest Idea about it's history, culture and development isn't enough.


I don't speak Deutsch but I DO speak a Germanic language. I'm well aware of Deutschland's history, culture, and development...its culture, especially, since so much of who and what I am is governed by the Ideals of German culture today. I am an expert on Third Reich culture, but also quite enlightened about all periods prior, and if one can call today's "German culture" truly "German," it as well.

Of course, Brown-Eyed Dr. Brandt, I'm not "good enough for you." "More German than thou..."




Do you want to put all these "Germans" on the same level as Hindenburg, Rudel, Peiper, Himmler?

One of those names doesn't fit...

Himmler? HIMMLER!? Traitor to the Fuehrer and Vaterland?

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:17 PM
The Laws are very clear on the Race issue. Thus it isn't even a question to me. No allien Race can be German - ever. But Race alone doesn't make a German.

Please define "alien race."

Was Gerda Daranowski (Polish origin) of "alien race"?

Was Erich von Manstein, born, von Lewinski (Polish origin), of "alien race"?

Was Walther Nowotny (Czech origin) of "alien race"?

Was Alfred Rosenberg (with the "Jewish name" but of Estonian Volksdeutsche origin) of "alien race"?

Are you more aware of who and what is a German than ADOLF HITLER?

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:21 PM
Do you think we Germans with OUR great culture and history wan't to be thrown into one pot with ...ROFL........ Polaks and Czechs?

Furthering German language and culture and tradition is a noble goal. HOWEVER, only the fool will put one's own traditions ABOVE the collective bio-cultural heritage of the Aryan Race.

We're all in this together, and if we all can't recognize that and put our chauvinism aside, we'll all go down together.

friedrich braun
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:23 PM
Was Alfred Rosenberg (with the "Jewish name" but of Estonian Volksdeutsche origin) of "alien race"?

A rule of thumb:

When I hear a jewish-sounding name in Germany, it's likely that the bearer is German.

Conversely, when I hear a jewish-sounding name in North America, it's likely that the bearer is jewish.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:24 PM
Personally if someone told me they had some polish ancestry they would most likely lose some status in my eyes.

How recent ancestry?

The vast majority of those Germans who were residing in the Oder-Neisse lands and the lands that became the DDR, prior to 1939, have -- oooh, shock, the horror! -- Nordish SLAVIC ancestry to one degree.

norcalnative1971
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:30 PM
Was Alfred Rosenberg (with the "Jewish name" but of Estonian Volksdeutsche origin) of "alien race"?

A rule of thumb:

When I hear a jewish-sounding name in Germany, it's likely that the bearer is German.

Conversely, when I hear a jewish-sounding name in North America, it's likely that the bearer is jewish.

I assume a "Jewish name" is borne by a Jew until proven otherwise. :icon_evil

friedrich braun
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 09:31 PM
Personally if someone told me they had some polish ancestry they would most likely lose some status in my eyes.

This is pretty dumb and unscientific, considering that there's genetic overlap between Western Slavs and East Germans. This shouldn't be surprising after living side by side for over a thousand years. I can post some studies that show East Germans to be closely related to Poles.

Although I haven't seen studies comparing Balts to Prussians, I also suspect that there's genetic overlap as well.

cosmocreator
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:02 PM
The Laws are very clear on the Race issue. Thus it isn't even a question to me. No allien Race can be German - ever.


That would exclude you then. Your Dinaric ancestors were either invaders or slaves within the last 2000 years. Dinarics did not originate in Germany.

cosmocreator
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:05 PM
One could even take the argument that the sons and daughters of the wandering Germanics are even more Germanic than those who stayed behind, embodying as the colonials do the mental and spiritual characteristics of adventure and invention that wells up from the Germanic gene pool.

I'm even more Germanic than Dr Brandt. :viking3: :laugh:

cosmocreator
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM
On a serious note, I am having a difficult time answering the question. Supposedly, 2/3rds of Europeans are related. I doubt there is much genetic difference say between a German, a Pole, a Dane and a Belgian.

Loki
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:26 PM
That would exclude you then. Your Dinaric ancestors were either invaders or slaves within the last 2000 years. Dinarics did not originate in Germany.I doubt Dr Brandt is a pure Dinaric, as can be found in Illyria.

Dinaric strains are found all over Germany, in the common Noric form. In a modern sense, it is very German.

cosmocreator
Monday, January 3rd, 2005, 10:29 PM
I doubt Dr Brandt is a pure Dinaric, as can be found in Illyria.

Dinaric strains are found all over Germany, in the common Noric form. In a modern sense, it is very German.


I doubt there are purebreds of any type in Europe. Dinarics originated in SE Europe or maybe even western Asia.

friedrich braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 01:27 AM
You have tall, blue-eyed blonds and short, stocky, brown-eyed brunettes in Germany and everything in between.

Von Braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 02:11 AM
Um...... this is about "Who is German" and not "Who is white". Do you think we Germans with OUR great culture and history wan't to be thrown into one pot with ...ROFL........ Polaks and Czechs?

Some are not White because of admixture with Asians. Some have no admixture and are thus White.

Anyway, when a man and a woman have sexual intercourse and make a fetus, English culture, Chinese culture, Aztec culture, or Zulu culture, or whatever is the applicable case, does not get transmitted. Genes get transmitted. The German gene pool does have genes that are common within it, but it does not exclusively possess these genes, since neighboring countries also have people with these genes.

To me, the concrete is more important than the abstract. Genes are concrete while culture (which is distinct from the products of culture) is abstract. If you took a baby of English parents and one of German parents, and both babies had very similar genetic sequences, and then put them on some colony on Mars to be raised by robots, would there be any concrete, tangible differences between the two individuals (other than the trivial fact that they are not identical twins)? Each person could fit in in the other person's ancesteral country.

Germany's cultural greatness (its technological achievements, its great art, and so on)---which I admire and am very proud of, as I am of [Germanic] English cultural greatness and [Germanic] French cultural greatness--- is a result of the genes that Germans [Germanics] have.

Von Braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 02:16 AM
I doubt Dr Brandt is a pure Dinaric, as can be found in Illyria.

Dinaric strains are found all over Germany, in the common Noric form. In a modern sense, it is very German.

And I challenge the assertion that they came a mere 2,000 years ago. Neither the archaeological record nor the historical record support that. What is supported is that Dinarics lived in what is today southern Germany, Austria, and Switzerland for several thousand years and were then assimilated into the Germanic branch of IE culture, said Germanic people coming from the north to assimilate them.

Von Braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 02:19 AM
I doubt there are purebreds of any type in Europe. Dinarics originated in SE Europe or maybe even western Asia.

IEs originated in western Asia.

Kristallnacht
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 02:57 AM
Who is German? I'm German! :biggrin:

jcs
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 03:03 AM
Dinarics did not originate in Germany.
nor did Nordids.

Von Braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 03:22 AM
Anyone who's of Northern or Central European ancestory and self-identifies as German. It's the only viable definition, I believe.

(A united Germany exists since Bismarck proclaimed the German Empire on 18 January 1871.)

This post is very reasonable, as are those of Loki, and they essentialy agree with my position.

Hagalaz
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 04:13 AM
Um...... this is about "Who is German" and not "Who is white". Do you think we Germans with OUR great culture and history wan't to be thrown into one pot with ...ROFL........ Polaks and Czechs?

You never cease to make an anti-slavic comment, do you "Dr. Brandt?" I honestly think you spend more time with your obnoxious rhetoric over the surrounding countries of Germany, than you actually indulge in the beauty of Germanic culture.

You are not a fair man, you are not a righteous man, and it seems you will never understand the true meaning of common dignity. You're but a corrupted child with enough disrespect and arrogance to turn the backs of your own brothers.

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:08 AM
[QUOTE]I never said they identified with Germany, but rather as Ethnic Germans.

Now ethnic Germans have a different identity then Germans? If they no longer have an identity as a German, they would be considered assimilated by their host country.


I'm sure they'd have been allowed to leave for Germany during the war.

America was restricting the movement of it's citizens during it's neutral years from 1939-1941?



As for South Africa, I recognize that their situation is hopeless, and our duty lies in aiding them to escape that hell-hole "country," which I have been doing

How many 'Aryan' Americans are interested in this 'Aryan state' you are proposing? If not, would you not also describe your situation in America as 'hopeless'?

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:22 AM
How recent ancestry?

The vast majority of those Germans who were residing in the Oder-Neisse lands and the lands that became the DDR, prior to 1939, have -- oooh, shock, the horror! -- Nordish SLAVIC ancestry to one degree.

I was thinking of the Polish immigration to the Ruhr during the 19th century.

Nordic refers to descent from the germanic tribes. The Slavic tribes were not germanic - so what exactly is Nordish SLAVIC?
The Slavic countries have not even been able to maintain some form of stabile government - Poland is basically an agrarian nation, with little industry. I have been both to Poland and former East Prussia - both countries were an absolute mess, though Poland seemed like paradise in comparison. Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad) was even on a lower level then India. What is so marvelling about these accomplishments?

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:36 AM
This is pretty dumb and unscientific, considering that there's genetic overlap between Western Slavs and East Germans. This shouldn't be surprising after living side by side for over a thousand years. I can post some studies that show East Germans to be closely related to Poles.

Although I haven't seen studies comparing Balts to Prussians, I also suspect that there's genetic overlap as well.

What exactly is scientific about identity? What exactly are you referring to as East Germany - the DDR? The provinces lost by Germany in the war? If the DDR, you are referring to all Laender, or just some? What exactly is a Western Slav? There are now 2 types of Slavic types? By your logic Germans are Slavs, Slavs are Germans - if that is the case all slavic and germanic countries should be on a equal setting in economical and cultural development. Have you ever been to Russia? Quite the country I assure you.

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Political stance does not create an ethnic group. Or does it?

I don't think anyone would consider the Jehovah Witnesses an ethnic group (they are forbidden in becoming involved in politics)

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:53 AM
I doubt there are purebreds of any type in Europe. Dinarics originated in SE Europe or maybe even western Asia.

What is your definition of purebred?

Tozoshin
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Dr. Brandt What would your position be with a brilliant scientest like F. Haber?

Drewi
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I`m a German. ;-)

Dr. Brandt
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 12:38 PM
You never seize to make an anti-slavic comment, do you "Dr. Brandt?" I honestly think you spend more time with your obnoxious rhetoric over the surrounding countries of Germany, than you actually indulge in the beauty of Germanic culture.

You are not a fair man, you are not a righteous man, and it seems you will never understand the true meaning of common dignity. You're but a corrupted child with enough disrespect and arrogance to turn the backs of your own brothers.

a) Polaks will never be our "brothers".
b) turning our backs on polaks wouldn't be a smart thing to do, because they would imeadiatly ram a knife or hatchet in our back. No sir, we want to keep a close eye on the polaks untill the day of reckoning comes! :icon_evil
c) Polaks and czechs are not all "slavic" nations.

Hagalaz
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 08:17 PM
a) Polaks will never be our "brothers".
Aye I understand that. My comment was in reference to Germans.

None the less, I've heard from some reliable sources that you yourself are partly Polish. Self hater? I wouldn't doubt it. Anyone who has such a passion for hating Poles must be a man who is insecure about his own self.

friedrich braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I've heard from some reliable sources that you yourself are partly Polish. Self hater?

:icon_surp


Did you talk to his mom? :laugh:

Dr. Brandt
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Aye I understand that. My comment was in reference to Germans.

None the less, I've heard from some reliable sources that you yourself are partly Polish. Self hater? I wouldn't doubt it. Anyone who has such a passion for hating Poles must be a man who is insecure about his own self.

Is your "reliable source" the Vodka-bottle you constantly look into, you stupid Polak?
If I had anything Polakian in me, I would shoot myself. Thats as bad as being a Jew or Nigger.

You have proven yet again, that Polaks are absolutely STUPID and DULL!

"reliable source" ROFL!

friedrich braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Is your "reliable source" the Vodka-bottle you constantly look into, you stupid Polak?

:rotfl:

Hagalaz
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:52 PM
My reliable source would be mods of this very forum :) How you complain and whine when you don't get your way, when your posts are deleted, etc etc. You're quite the character with enough ignorance to spare for the entire forum! I've even had one mod tell me "He's mentally unstable, don't waste your time." Yeah that's a good point but why should I leave you alone when you make such a fine example of degeneracy!

cosmocreator
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 09:57 PM
What is your definition of purebred?


A type that is umixed with other types. The ancestors of "type A" are also "type A" going back several generations.

Dr. Brandt
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:19 PM
My reliable source would be mods of this very forum :) How you complain and whine when you don't get your way, when your posts are deleted, etc etc. You're quite the character with enough ignorance to spare for the entire forum! I've even had one mod tell me "He's mentally unstable, don't waste your time." Yeah that's a good point but why should I leave you alone when you make such a fine example of degeneracy!

Then this "Mod" - whoever that is - is a brazen liar! There isnt a drop of polak blood in our heritage-line - thank God!

Hagalaz
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Then this "Mod" - whoever that is - is a brazen liar! There isnt a drop of polak blood in our heritage-line - thank God!

A self hater will always live in denial. It must eat you up day by day.

http://tinypic.com/164h1z

friedrich braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:29 PM
Why is a Pole sporting the Irish flag and IRA motto in his avatar? :scratch:

Is this some kind of a Polish joke?

Are you part Polish and part Irish? If that's the case, I offer you my condolences...that must be a pretty tough draw...

Vodka or Whiskey...?

no

Beer or Cider...?

:laugh:

Dr. Brandt
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:32 PM
A self hater will always live in denial. It must eat you up day by day.

http://tinypic.com/164h1z

LOL - Whatever makey your boat rock! :rolleyes:


Why is a Pole sporting the Irish flag and IRA motto in his avatar? :scratch:


He's a yank who doesn't realy know what he is. A new-world mongrel. Wonder what that Atavar means? Is that the polish eagle being roasted?

Loki
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:41 PM
I didn't want this thread of mine to become a pissing contest.

Now, now, children!

Stig NHF
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 10:56 PM
He's using the signature of the DHF though.... Deutsche Heidnische Front, a part of the AHF.

Dr. Brandt
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:06 PM
He's using the signature of the DHF though.... Deutsche Heidnische Front, a part of the AHF.

What, a polak stealing a german sig? Polaks thieves? Nooooooooo, it can't be! :laugh:

SouthernBoy
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:13 PM
Is your "reliable source" the Vodka-bottle you constantly look into, you stupid Polak?
If I had anything Polakian in me, I would shoot myself. Thats as bad as being a Jew or Nigger.

You have proven yet again, that Polaks are absolutely STUPID and DULL!

"reliable source" ROFL!

You deserve to be banned. You aren't even Nordish.

friedrich braun
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:15 PM
You deserve to be banned. You aren't even Nordish.

Mind your business.

Dr. Brandt is peripherally Nordish; thus, he belongs here.

Hagalaz
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:38 PM
He's using the signature of the DHF though.... Deutsche Heidnische Front, a part of the AHF.

Stig, I am SunOfSwarog from the HF ;) I'm using the DHF signature because I have great respect for Germanic culture! Fortunately neo-nazi holligan types are shunned in the AHF. However, anyone who wants to make enemies with me can go right ahead. Be Polish or German, ignorant people like Dr. Brandt are easy to come by.

Loki
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:42 PM
You deserve to be banned. You aren't even Nordish.
Fortunately, none of these two things are for you to decide.

SouthernBoy
Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, 11:59 PM
Fortunately, none of these two things are for you to decide.
LOL. You are probably right.

Loki
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:01 AM
I don't understand why threads like these should get so out of hand. I guess I should study it to determine what went wrong. This really hampers productive discussion. :icon_sad:

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:04 AM
I don't understand why threads like these should get so out of hand. I guess I should study it to determine what went wrong. This really hampers productive discussion. :icon_sad:

That would be Dr. Brandt never ceasing to make derogatory comments. I have nothing against Germans personally, but when people make anti-polish comments, I refuse to just sit there and swallow it. Can you blame me? It's not as if I said anything bad about Germans or started the line of insults in any way.

Banning him wouldn't be a bad idea, at least things would be more productive, certainly not because he's "non-nordish" but because he's only here to cause problems.

Northern Paladin
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:04 AM
Ethnic tensions and hostiles I believe. I don't think it's a problem as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. Some of the stuff is pretty funny. Don't think it will ever be elimated but it can be controlled.

Kristallnacht
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:20 AM
That would be Dr. Brandt never seizing to make derogatory comments. I have nothing against Germans personally, but when people make anti-polish comments

For me you are anti-german and an enemy when you support "Poland"

Stay away from German Nationalist/NS in general, we all hate the Polack-Hurensöhne 100% and we have enough good reasons for that....

88

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:24 AM
For me you are anti-german and an enemy when you support "Poland"

Stay away from German Nationalist/NS in general, we all hate the Polack-Hurensöhne 100% and we have enough good reasons for that....

88

I could care a less what you think, you're but a neo nazi minority of the German people. I know plenty of Germans who understand what the truth is and who the real enemies are. Germans who are FAR more productive than you, who take steps of action to someday see a culturally aware Germany! Germans who unite with Poles and other Northern Europeans at the Wolin festival. Germans who are apart of the DHF / AHF.
Germans who think realistically.

norcalnative1971
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:35 AM
Is that the polish eagle being roasted?

BWA HA HA HA!!!

norcalnative1971
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:37 AM
For me you are anti-german and an enemy when you support "Poland"


Herr Bormann aka Werther made sure his ideological brethren in the USSR got all the information they needed!

http://www.greenhillbooks.com/gbn/102/hitlers_traitor.html

Speak of being anti-German!

norcalnative1971
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Fortunately neo-nazi holligan types are shunned in the AHF.

You are in no position to belittle "neo-Nazis" considering you promote the Bolshevik IRA.

Some of us National Socialists are NOT "Pole haters" -- just like Hitler. The Great Man admired Marshal Pilsudski, and ordered a 24/7 honor guard posted at his tomb during the occupation. And of course, Hitler had his loyal German secretary of Polish origin, Gerda Daranowski.

friedrich braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:46 AM
OK, this thread is running in circles.

SouthernBoy
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 01:42 AM
OK, this thread is running in circles.
Someone needs to close it before it gets worse.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 02:17 AM
Someone needs to close it before it gets worse.


Or I could just delete posts like I have always done. But I'll let it go for a while longer.

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 03:21 AM
You are in no position to belittle "neo-Nazis" considering you promote the Bolshevik IRA..

Eh? It's the truth. The AHF want nothing to do with your ignorant types.

Tozoshin
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Some of us National Socialists are NOT "Pole haters" -- just like Hitler. The Great Man admired Marshal Pilsudski, and ordered a 24/7 honor guard posted at his tomb during the occupation.

Hitler also admired Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now you are going to fit all Turks into your 'Aryan' religion? What does individually admiring the abilities of Pilsudski have to do with liking or respecting Poland or the Poles - Hitler states quite clearly what a disorderly, run down mess Poland is in his Rechenschaftsbericht am 6.10.39 - which may explain why it was wiped off the map so easily

Tozoshin
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:11 AM
A type that is unmixed with other types. The ancestors of "type A" are also "type A" going back several generations.

Isn't this like opening the Pandora's box? What would you define as mixed? How many generations? We can take Japan again as an example - their ancestors came froma variety of areas thousands of years ago - would you still classify them as mixed today? Are you only going to use the term 'pure' where selective breeding for specific traits takes place?

Tozoshin
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=Kepler]
To me, the concrete is more important than the abstract. Genes are concrete while culture (which is distinct from the products of culture) is abstract. If you took a baby of English parents and one of German parents, and both babies had very similar genetic sequences, and then put them on some colony on Mars to be raised by robots, would there be any concrete, tangible differences between the two individuals (other than the trivial fact that they are not identical twins)? Each person could fit in in the other person's ancesteral country.

How far does culture determine behaviour? How far does race determine culture?
Take China, Japan and Korea as an example. Science defines all 3 countries as belonging to the same race. Yet the Japanese spoken language has no similarities with Chinese, and little with Korean. None of them have any liking for the other, and have developed completely different societies. Even within China itself you have many different identities - it does not even have a common language. The Japanese completely reject Koreans trying to fit into Japan - why?

Dr. Brandt
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:54 AM
Herr Bormann aka Werther made sure his ideological brethren in the USSR got all the information they needed!

http://www.greenhillbooks.com/gbn/102/hitlers_traitor.html

Speak of being anti-German!

Do you believe everything you read? That Bormann was a traitor is hardly likely. He had no ideas of military matters and wasn't present at the staff-meetings during the war. How the hell could he have gotten access to the material of the OKW.
And if he were their masterspy, why was he shot dead in the end? Why did he stay in the bunker untill the end and not defect when the Soviets were at the gates of Berlin?
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Bormann, but he wasn't a traitor. Unless I see the KGB file declassifying him as agent, I will not believe this obstruse story.
One should also note that after WW1 he was in a Freikorps and saw what Bolshevism is. He even sat in jail for his NS convictions.

FadeTheButcher
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:09 PM
It's genes, genes, genes.

Most people consider the British to be Germanic and by the same logic, any American, Canadian, South African, Australian, (and other colonial) who is descended from British stock, Germanic, or Skandinavian stock, etc., is also Germanic. After all, if my history of the Anglo-Saxon-Jute invasion and peopling of the British Isles is accurate, the British Isles were the New World of the fifth century.

The Germanic peoples have wandered all over the earth searching for living space, and up until the Fall of the West, have even set their sites on the stars!

One could even take the argument that the sons and daughters of the wandering Germanics are even more Germanic than those who stayed behind, embodying as the colonials do the mental and spiritual characteristics of adventure and invention that wells up from the Germanic gene pool.
This notion that Germany is somehow ethnically pure whereas Americans are mongrels is an anthropological absurdity. Ethnicity is not biologically transmitted. Neither is nationality. Both are socially constructed. And you are right. It makes no more sense for Americans to describe themselves as 1/4 Dane, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 German, some Scandinavian and so on than it does for Brits to describe themselves as 1/18th Pict, 1/14th Roman, 1/2 Saxon, 1/4th Irish, some Jute, Scot, and a dash of Norman.

If anything is true, then it is that Germans are more mixed than Americans are, generally speaking. At least this has been my experience. I am no expert on the subject. For instance, take this 'Dinaric' look that has been described in this thread. I generally don't see people like that around here. Americans tend to be of Northwest European ancestry, especially in the South. Almost everyone is tall, light eyes, light hair, with light skin. I don't see many Americans who look like they could have walked out of the Balkans. Southerners look much more like the English or Prussians than Southern Germans. Like this:

http://www.auburn.edu/student_info/greeks/alpha_delta_pi/images/pictures/holi-rosemary.jpg

Or this:

http://www.auburn.edu/student_info/greeks/alpha_delta_pi/images/pictures/a-formal-affair.jpg

Or this:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0405.jpg

FadeTheButcher
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Furthermore, the sort of redneck and whigger stereotypes are actually generally held in contempt around here. Virtually all Southern universities have annual events like "White Trash Bash" or "Whigger Fest" where everyone dresses up like these people as a joke. Here are a few pics I managed to find:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0411.jpg

Another funny one. Bashing whiggers is something of a sport around here:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0412.jpg

Southerners look much more like this:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0171.jpg

Or like this:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0051.jpg

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 01:50 PM
@Fade: Your assessment is basically correct, but there's a strong and all-pervasive presence of the Mediterranid type in the pictures you posted.

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Almost everyone is tall, light eyes, light hair, with light skin.

LMAO, what a lie. I've been to the south and I have seen A LOT of Atlantids. As a matter of fact, the historical cliche of the Southern belle archetype is a brunette Atlanto-Mediterranean woman of Celtic cultural background.

Newsflash: Wales, Scotland, and Ireland are NOT extremely blond. The American south IS extremely Scottish-Irish-Welsh.

Dinaric German northerners kicked the shit out of nigrified southern hicks in the Civil War. :viking1:

Loki
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 07:40 PM
@Fade: Your assessment is basically correct, but there's a strong and all-pervasive presence of the Mediterranid type in the pictures you posted.
That Americans are more racially pure than Germans? What have you been smoking?

Dr. Brandt
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 08:02 PM
That Americans are more racially pure than Germans? What have you been smoking?

Drinking dear Loki, drinking!

VODKA

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Americans are extremeley mixed. In fact it's quite rare to come across a natural blonde here in the states. Many many people have indian mixture and southern european mixture. I'm proud just to be 100% European with Nordic traits, I feel lucky as an American.

People like Dr. Brandt seem to think that Germans and other Northern Europeans are pure types, even though we know tribes of diffferent cultures and racial types have been mixing for centuries. I myself, being an American of different national backgrounds, am just as 'pure' as any German, despite these ignorant nationalistic grudges.

Kristallnacht
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 08:57 PM
AMERICAN YOUTH:

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0411.jpg

http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0171.jpg

GERMAN YOUTH:

http://www.krasse-zeiten.de/foto/mai2002ns/images/mains011.jpg
Berlin, 2002

http://www.gustfoto.de/Galerie/Leben/Rechtsex2/a11117halbe.jpg
Halbe, 1992


Who is the Masterfolk here? :biggrin:

Dr. Brandt
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Who is the Masterfolk here? :biggrin:

Abgeschossen! :biggrin:

:beer-smil

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Too bad that's not the image of most Germans.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:10 PM
That one guy there in the center-right looks part Mongoloid.



GERMAN YOUTH:

http://www.krasse-zeiten.de/foto/mai2002ns/images/mains011.jpg
Berlin, 2002

Axelrod
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:22 PM
That Americans are more racially pure than Germans? What have you been smoking?

smoking not necessarily required, Germany has a very increasing rate of alpines and dinarics while the White Americans are mostly bigboned Anglo Saxons accompanied by a similar percentage of Halstatts when compared to Germany. The White element in the United States is in general more integrated into Nordic/Nordish traits.

German is a citizenship and mostly a political term, similar to the usage of aryan during the ww2. An alpine family of volksdeutschers in a village near river volga are ethnic Germans nonetheless while a blond Russian is not necessarily a German. With being German the 3rd reich aryan laws would apply, but if you ask what Germanic is, its a colour eyed light haired person in synonym to Nordish and has nothing to do with being ethnic German, speaking German etc..

norcalnative1971
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:23 PM
Americans tend to be of Northwest European ancestry, especially in the South. Almost everyone is tall, light eyes, light hair, with light skin.

Bullshit.

MOST Southerners are dysgenic trash, usually with part Nigger and part Indian ancestry.

Lenny
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Wales, Scotland, and Ireland are NOT extremely blond. The American south IS extremely Scottish-Irish-Welsh.The South probably has a higher percentage of blondes than any region in the US besides the Midwest. And I don't know why you think the South is dominated by Scottish-Irish-Welsh. It's likely that people of English ancestry in the South outnumber all of those groups put together and then some (Well most people in the South are a mix of two or more of the aforementioned groups, but English is a bigger influence on the Southern gene pool than all the other groups you mentioned put together)


Dinaric German northerners kicked the shit out of nigrified southern hicks in the Civil War. :viking1:Only 20% of Union soldiers were German, and only about 20% of Germans are dinaric, which means that only 4% of Union soldiers were "Dinaric German Northerners", if we assume that the German-American population in the 1860s was perfectly respresentative of the German population in Germany. 4% of the Army didn't win the war any more than the 8% of Union soldiers who were black won the war (most colored regiments never even saw combat).


In fact it's quite rare to come across a natural blonde here in the states. What are you talking about? I don't know where you live, but if you make such a statement then it's likely you live in an area in which the white population is dominated by non-Northern Europeans.

Your statement is probably only true in the Northeast due to heavy immigration from Italians, Poles (most Polish immigrants were from Southern Poland), Jews, Portuguese, and plenty of other such groups. But I cannot think of another region of America where your statement about it being rare to see blondes is true. It certainly isn't true in the areas in the Midwest that I am familiar with.

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:00 PM
That Americans are more racially pure than Germans? What have you been smoking?

I've been referring to this passage (should have pasted it):

Ethnicity is not biologically transmitted. Neither is nationality. Both are socially constructed. And you are right. It makes no more sense for Americans to describe themselves as 1/4 Dane, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 German, some Scandinavian and so on than it does for Brits to describe themselves as 1/18th Pict, 1/14th Roman, 1/2 Saxon, 1/4th Irish, some Jute, Scot, and a dash of Norman.

As long as they don't have any non-white admixture, that is.

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Drinking dear Loki, drinking!

VODKA

I don't drink alcohol, Brandt - unlike you. :bier: Perhaps that's why I, unlike you, have a body of a grown-up man.

Loki
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:04 PM
smoking not necessarily required, Germany has a very increasing rate of alpines and dinarics while the White Americans are mostly bigboned Anglo Saxons accompanied by a similar percentage of Halstatts when compared to Germany. The White element in the United States is in general more integrated into Nordic/Nordish traits.

Do you have any study to back this up? I am not convinced.

Look, I do know that many Americans are Nordish, and fully Nordic even. But I do doubt that America as a whole is more Nordic than Germany. That is a little unrealistic.

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:07 PM
What are you talking about? I don't know where you live, but if you make such a statement then it's likely you live in an area in which the white population is dominated by non-Northern Europeans.

No, predominately German with some Polish. Though many of these "Germans" have non-northern admixture. Most of the Poles I see in my area have light features. But these Poles are straight from Poland, not Americans.

None the less, it doesn't take a genius to realize that Germany is more Nordic than America. So many people are part Italian, Indian, Lebanese, Etc etc ..

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=24791

Here is a picture of a Polish friend of mine, born in Poland.

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:13 PM
smoking not necessarily required, Germany has a very increasing rate of alpines and dinarics while the White Americans are mostly bigboned Anglo Saxons accompanied by a similar percentage of Halstatts when compared to Germany. The White element in the United States is in general more integrated into Nordic/Nordish traits.

WTF are you talking about? White Americans have ancestry from all over Europe. The average White American is hardly a Halstatt or Anglo-Saxon. Go to the Wisconsin and look at all of the Alpine and Dinaric Germans. Go to Maine and see all of the Alpine French. Go to Massachusetts and see all of the Atlanto-Mediterranean people with ancestry from the British Isles. Do you get the idea?

Also, what do you mean an "increasing" rate of Alpines and Dinarics in Germany? The indigenous German population is decreasing in numbers.

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:26 PM
The South probably has a higher percentage of blondes than any region in the US besides the Midwest. And I don't know why you think the South is dominated by Scottish-Irish-Welsh. It's likely that people of English ancestry in the South outnumber all of those groups put together and then some (Well most people in the South are a mix of two or more of the aforementioned groups, but English is a bigger influence on the Southern gene pool than all the other groups you mentioned put together)


Why is the American South loaded with people with the surname prefixes "Mc," "Mac," and "O?"


Only 20% of Union soldiers were German, and only about 20% of Germans are dinaric, which means that only 4% of Union soldiers were "Dinaric German Northerners", if we assume that the German-American population in the 1860s was perfectly respresentative of the German population in Germany. 4% of the Army didn't win the war any more than the 8% of Union soldiers who were black won the war (most colored regiments never even saw combat).

20% of Germany may be nearly pure Dinaric, but there is also another segment of the German population that is Noric, which is a mixture of Dinaric and central Nordish strains. All together, a large percentage of Germans have a significant amount of Dinaric ancestry.



What are you talking about? I don't know where you live, but if you make such a statement then it's likely you live in an area in which the white population is dominated by non-Northern Europeans.

Your statement is probably only true in the Northeast due to heavy immigration from Italians, Poles (most Polish immigrants were from Southern Poland), Jews, Portuguese, and plenty of other such groups. But I cannot think of another region of America where your statement about it being rare to see blondes is true. It certainly isn't true in the areas in the Midwest that I am familiar with

I am from Wisconsin, the most German state in the U.S., and natural blondes are WAY less than 50% of the White population. Do you dispute this?

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:29 PM
http://www.westga.edu/~sigmanu/IMG_0405.jpg

http://www.auburn.edu/student_info/greeks/alpha_delta_pi/images/pictures/holi-rosemary.jpg

Fake Blondes.

Dr. Brandt
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:29 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=24791

Here is a picture of a Polish friend of mine, born in Poland.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1670&stc=1

Here are some more of your friends waiting to be transported off by some of my friends. :biggrin:

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:29 PM
MOST Southerners are dysgenic trash, usually with part Nigger and part Indian ancestry.

YES!!!! It seems as if every other southerner is boasting about his or her Amerindian ancestry. :gay:

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:41 PM
20% of Germany may be nearly pure Dinaric, but there is also another segment of the German population that is Noric, which is a mixture of Dinaric and central Nordish strains.

Hardly. Perhaps 20% of Bosnians or Montenegrins are nearly pure Dinaric.

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Hardly. Perhaps 20% of Bosnians or Montenegrins are nearly pure Dinaric.

Maybe, but I believe that the guy that I quoted was going off of a pie graph (from Coon or Lundmann perhaps?) that I have in fact seen that gives 20% for German Dinarics (and another for Norics, sub-Nordics, etc.)

I thought that Serbia is largely Dinaric.

Hagalaz
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:46 PM
According to Coon

Germany is 15% Alpine, 15% Noric, 5% Dinaric

Lenny
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Why is the American South loaded with people with the surname prefixes "Mc," "Mac," and "O?"It is hardly "loaded" with such names. There are far more English surnames than Irish


20% of Germany may be nearly pure Dinaric, but there is also another segment of the German population that is Noric, which is a mixture of Dinaric and central Nordish strains. All together, a large percentage of Germans have a significant amount of Dinaric ancestry. Most German immigrants to America, especially early on (pre-Civil War), were from the less-Dinaric parts of Germany. A better estimate would be that only 10% of German Union soldiers were Dinaric (which would be only 2% of the Army).


I am from Wisconsin, the most German state in the U.S., and natural blondes are WAY less than 50% of the White population. Do you dispute this?I never claimed blondes were above 50%. But it would be a pretty safe bet to bet that the rate of hair blondism in the white population of the Midwest states is higher than the rate of hair blondism in the white population in many parts of Germany. But considering that you seem to be another dime-a-dozen America-hater (I base this on your avatar), I wouldn't expect you to admit this.

Also, speaking of the Midwest, I have family in North Iowa, and most of my female relatives there are blondes; many of my male relatives there even have blond hair

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:53 PM
Maybe, but I believe that the guy that I quoted was going off of a pie graph (from Coon or Lundmann perhaps?) that I have in fact seen that gives 20% for German Dinarics (and another for Norics, sub-Nordics, etc.)

That was Günther's pie chart. He estimated that the entire Dinarid presence in Germany amounts to 20%. Being a staunch Nordicist, he was hardly a neutral source, though.



I thought that Serbia is largely Dinaric.

Serbia simply has too many sub-types to be largely anything. The north is different from the south as well. Montenegro is another story. Bosnia is even more complicated.

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:55 PM
According to Coon

Germany is 15% Alpine, 15% Noric, 5% Dinaric


Really? What book and page?

Lenny
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 10:56 PM
Maybe, but I believe that the guy that I quoted was going off of a pie graph (from Coon or Lundmann perhaps?) that I have in fact seen that gives 20% for German Dinarics (and another for Norics, sub-Nordics, etc.)It turns out that the 20% Dinaric figure includes periphery Dinarics:

Germany = 25% Borreby (most common in the Rhine and Ruhr valleys and the north), 20% Fälish (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in Baden and Bavaria), 15% Noric, 6% Keltic Nordic (most common in the old Frankish country in the southwest), 5% Anglo-Saxon (most common in the northwest), 5% East Baltic, 5% Dinaric, 4% Hallstatt Nordic = 80% Nordish (60% central and 20% periphery types)

http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Most German immigrants to America, especially early on (pre-Civil War), were from the less-Dinaric parts of Germany. A better estimate would be that only 10% of German Union soldiers were Dinaric (which would be only 2% of the Army).

What about Austrian, Swiss, and French Dinarics in the Union armies?


I never claimed blondes were above 50%. But it would be a pretty safe bet to bet that the rate of hair blondism in the white population of the Midwest states is higher than the rate of hair blondism in the white population in many parts of Germany. But considering that you seem to be another dime-a-dozen America-hater (I base this on your avatar), I wouldn't expect you to admit this.

WTF? I am PROUD to admit that I hate this country.

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:02 PM
That was Günther's pie chart. He estimated that the entire Dinarid presence in Germany amounts to 20%. Being a staunch Nordicist, he was hardly a neutral source, though.

Thus you're implying that Germany may have more than 20% of it's population with a significant amount of Dinaric?

Von Braun
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:04 PM
It turns out that the 20% Dinaric figure includes periphery Dinarics:

Germany = 25% Borreby (most common in the Rhine and Ruhr valleys and the north), 20% Fälish (most common in the north), 15% Alpine (most common in Baden and Bavaria), 15% Noric, 6% Keltic Nordic (most common in the old Frankish country in the southwest), 5% Anglo-Saxon (most common in the northwest), 5% East Baltic, 5% Dinaric, 4% Hallstatt Nordic = 80% Nordish (60% central and 20% periphery types)

http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html

Okay, so by these estimates ~ 20% of the German population is either close to entirely or partially Dinaric.

Loki
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Being a staunch Nordicist, he was hardly a neutral source, though.
Nordicists are realists. You should know that, being a member of TNP. ;)

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:23 PM
Thus you're implying that Germany may have more than 20% of it's population with a significant amount of Dinaric?

:coffee:

Didn't I say that you're overestimating the Dinarid presence in Germany?

Triglav
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:30 PM
Nordicists are realists. You should know that, being a member of TNP. ;)

I like my scientists neutral. Günther was an ideologue, and so are many contemporary scientist (of a completely different cast, though).

Loki
Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, 11:44 PM
I like my scientists neutral. Günther was an ideologue, and so are many contemporary scientist (of a completely different cast, though).
You are implying that Nordicists cannot be neutral, or scientific. This is false. If you do not share this view, you yourself are obviously biased against Nordicists. And then I would wonder what exactly you are looking for on this forum.

Son of a gun
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 12:08 AM
Is dinaric something to be shamed of?

SouthernBoy
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 12:25 AM
I think that the South has about a 1-2 in 10 rate of natural blondism. In the cities, it is much, much lower and in the country it can rise to 3 our of ten. I see Kepler is ranting about Dinaric Yankees, now we can see where his loyalties lie.

To Loki, Nordicists rule! :)

Triglav
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 12:57 AM
You are implying that Nordicists cannot be neutral, or scientific. This is false. If you do not share this view, you yourself are obviously biased against Nordicists. And then I would wonder what exactly you are looking for on this forum.

I believe in what I do no matter what, as my conclusions, and my ideology if you will, are based on firm ground. But it's soothing to know that a scientist is not ideologically burdened in any way. Neutral scientific data is always the most persuasive.

I bet that few geneticist can be labelled as racists nowadays. Yet, even these must acknowledge the existence of race. Their data can be utilised to scientifically underpin the genetic basis of race, for example, as there is no doubt about the neutrality of their findings.

If a scientist is an ideologue, he is tempted to garner any tenable data to support his preferred result (remember the article on the DNA tests at Howard University?). If the opposite is true, namely that a scholar makes up his mind and forms an ideology because he has been persuaded by neutrally extrapolated data, then I am perfectly comfortable with that. My point is that one's beliefs must not interfere with scientific research. This can not be warranted with ideologues of any kind and caution should and must be exercised.

Allenson
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 01:10 AM
As for who is a German....how about this:

A person who largely descends, at a genetic level, from the ancient indiginous folk of central and north-central Europe who later and eventually evolved into the Germanic linguistic and cultural grouping of the greater Indo-European group and whose immediate family memebers were born and raised in Germany and who was also born and raised in Germany, speaking German and brought up in a German cultural tradition.



--There are of course holes in this but perhaps it's a start. ;)

Allenson
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 01:31 AM
Now off topic: ;)

With regard to the racial makeup of white Americans, I can only speak with clarity of the region in which I live and was raised in--that being rural northern New England. While there is certainly a Quebecois element here which brought with it in the mid and late 1800s an Alpinid and also Atlantid quality, the old stock Yankees here, are by and large, of a reasonably robust type, often exhibiting blondism of both hair and eye (though surely the hair darkens to a light-medium brown by adulthood in many cases though by no means always). In Coonian terms, we might be speaking of something that lies between the Brunn/Faelid and the Anglo-Saxon. With caution though, I say that we cannot compare them much with modern native Europeans of these aforementioned types as newer selective pressures have surely made us American in look.

Calvin Coolidge is a reasonable example--albeit a bit gracile.

http://www.classbrain.com/artholiday/publish/article_144.shtml

friedrich braun
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 01:44 AM
I like my scientists neutral. Günther was an ideologue, and so are many contemporary scientist (of a completely different cast, though).

Making a serious accusation and not backing it up with some evidence is worthless as well as libelous. The burden is on the accuser to show the exactness of his statements...you haven't done so.

norcalnative1971
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 01:46 AM
According to Coon

Germany is 15% Alpine, 15% Noric, 5% Dinaric

Carleton S. Coon studied Europe over SIX DECADES ago. World War II changed ethnic and racial factors enormously.

Triglav
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 02:20 AM
Making a serious accusation and not backing it up with some evidence is worthless as well as libelous. The burden is on the accuser to show the exactness of his statements...you haven't done so.

I already elaborated on what I meant by this here:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=74872&postcount=158

friedrich braun
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 04:37 AM
I already elaborated on what I meant by this here:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=74872&postcount=158

OK, I've read that trite little post and you still haven't told us where Guenther lied, deceived, etc. (whatever you want to call it). Provide evidence of his dishonesty or cease and desist from making diffamatory remarks.

Von Braun
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 04:47 AM
:coffee:

Didn't I say that you're overestimating the Dinarid presence in Germany?

When you say that the man was a Nordiscist and you question his objectivity, it is obvious that the implication is that he is overestimating the presence of Nordic strains in Germany. What else could you have meant with that comment?

cosmocreator
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 04:50 AM
Lundman and Coon wrote books a long time ago and they probably accurately reflected their times. Times have changed.

Loki
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 06:57 AM
I believe in what I do no matter what, as my conclusions, and my ideology if you will, are based on firm ground. But it's soothing to know that a scientist is not ideologically burdened in any way. Neutral scientific data is always the most persuasive.

I bet that few geneticist can be labelled as racists nowadays. Yet, even these must acknowledge the existence of race. Their data can be utilised to scientifically underpin the genetic basis of race, for example, as there is no doubt about the neutrality of their findings.

If a scientist is an ideologue, he is tempted to garner any tenable data to support his preferred result (remember the article on the DNA tests at Howard University?). If the opposite is true, namely that a scholar makes up his mind and forms an ideology because he has been persuaded by neutrally extrapolated data, then I am perfectly comfortable with that. My point is that one's beliefs must not interfere with scientific research. This can not be warranted with ideologues of any kind and caution should and must be exercised.
Unfortunately, nowadays the opposite is quite the norm. Namely: that scientists are expected to utter anti-racist "conclusions" at the end of their studies - no matter how the studies develop. This is disturbing.

Triglav
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Unfortunately, nowadays the opposite is quite the norm. Namely: that scientists are expected to utter anti-racist "conclusions" at the end of their studies - no matter how the studies develop. This is disturbing.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Triglav
Thursday, January 6th, 2005, 11:03 PM
When you say that the man was a Nordiscist and you question his objectivity, it is obvious that the implication is that he is overestimating the presence of Nordic strains in Germany. What else could you have meant with that comment?

I said that bias could have been a factor. In fact 50% according to his definition of Nordisch (more or less central Nordish without Faelid (Fälisch)) sounds accurate to me. The low figure for Faelid (5%) surprises me, though. :scratch:

Ideologues make me suspicious - for obvious reasons. Especially the modern ones.

Zyklop
Friday, January 7th, 2005, 12:34 PM
I said that bias could have been a factor. In fact 50% according to his definition of Nordisch (more or less central Nordish without Faelid (Fälisch)) sounds accurate to me. The low figure for Faelid (5%) surprises me, though. :scratch: That´s probably because you confuse the SNPA Faelid with Günther´s Phalian. In Günther´s classification these SNPA Faelids would still be counted among Nordics.

FadeTheButcher
Friday, January 7th, 2005, 11:29 PM
Bullshit.

MOST Southerners are dysgenic trash, usually with part Nigger and part Indian ancestry.I think I will let the gallery be the judge of who sounds more like dysgenic trash.

Hagalaz
Friday, January 7th, 2005, 11:30 PM
My Polish side spoke broken Polish with German and my great aunts were raised in a German family and my Grandfather on my Polish side has an Austrian surname... My family also migrated to America before world war 2. Does this mean anything? Could they be Polonized Germans or is this natural for Poles of their time?

Sorry my family barely knows anything about the details of our heritage, one of the many downsides of being an "American."

I'd like an honest answer please, no insults this time. :)

friedrich braun
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 12:08 AM
The fact is that they could be anything, i.e., Germanized Poles or Polonized Germans. I'm reading now David Hoggan's The Forced War and he relates how it was common for ethnic Poles in Germany during the Third Reich to state on German censuses that they were German. The author writes that the Poles during that time lived in the best and most powerful country in Europe, a country that was doing extremely well economically and socially (especially in comparison to Poland and other feckless neighbours) and that that was the main incentive on their part to "feel German", if you will. A member of the Master Race destined to rule Europe. Those German Poles simply wanted to join the winning club.

Then there's the fascinating question of Poles in Silesia who are commonly known as "Slonzaki" in Poland. The Slonzaks are Western Slavs who have always identified to a great extent with Germany. I don't have the book beside me now, but the author quotes the Slonzak leaders as saying that "they would rather work in a German concentration camp than in Poland." (I'm quoting from memory.) They actually wanted to join Germany. In sum, ethnicity is a pretty fluid thing in that part of the world.

I have a German cousin who has a Polish grandfather, he's very tall, very blond and blue-eyed (a real Teuton) and about to become an aerospatial engineer. I challenge anyone to tell him that he's not German or in some way inferior. LOL



My Polish side spoke broken Polish with German and my great aunts were raised in a German family and my Grandfather on my Polish side has an Austrian surname... My family also migrated to America before world war 2. Does this mean anything? Could they be Polonized Germans or is this natural for Poles of their time?

Sorry my family barely knows anything about the details of our heritage, one of the many downsides of being an "American."

I'd like an honest answer please, no insults this time. :)

Hagalaz
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Well my Polish side is also extremeley tall with light hair and eyes, and other Nordic features. Some are even Hallstatt Nordic. I've had a few of them classified on the forums and I got everything but Polish ;) German and Dutch were the common answers. None the less they are very Nordic and I am very proud!

friedrich braun
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 01:04 AM
I doubt it.

Physical ugliness isn't always synonymous with racial admixture.


That one guy there in the center-right looks part Mongoloid.

Hagalaz
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 01:29 AM
I doubt it.

Physical ugliness isn't always synonymous with racial admixture.

Well, he does sort of have a mongoloid appeal to him, but it could just be the picture.

friedrich braun
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 01:36 AM
Asian immigrants are still a rarity in Germany and only thirty years ago Germany was still essentially homogenous. Hence, I doubt he has Asian ancestry and participated in a right-wing demo.


Well, he does sort of have a mongoloid appeal to him, but it could just be the picture.

Triglav
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 05:47 AM
That´s probably because you confuse the SNPA Faelid with Günther´s Phalian. In Günther´s classification these SNPA Faelids would still be counted among Nordics.

What actually surprises me is why he singled out a phenotype that was so close to his (pretty broad) definition of Nordisch (but still regarded it as a branch thereof) for such a small percentage of the population. However, he only did that at a later stage of his career if my memory is right. After all, not all of his Nordids were gracile either, but his Phalians were occasionally very broad-faced. They have a stronger Cro-Magnid appearance.

Few anthropologists really agree on certain types - especially in the case of the so-called Atlantids - or Nordids for that matter.

Triglav
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 05:53 AM
Asian immigrants are still a rarity in Germany and only thirty years ago Germany was still essentially homogenous. Hence, I doubt he has Asian ancestry and participated in a right-wing demo.

It probably is just the picture, but bear in mind that virtually all European nations also have low levels (c. 1%) of non-Caucasoid admixture.

Loki
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Well my Polish side is also extremeley tall with light hair and eyes, and other Nordic features. Some are even Hallstatt Nordic. I've had a few of them classified on the forums and I got everything but Polish ;) German and Dutch were the common answers. None the less they are very Nordic and I am very proud!
You have reason to be proud then! :)

Zyklop
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 09:46 AM
What actually surprises me is why he singled out a phenotype that was so close to his (pretty broad) definition of Nordisch (but still regarded it as a branch thereof) for such a small percentage of the population. However, he only did that at a later stage of his career if my memory is right. After all, not all of his Nordids were gracile either, but his Phalians were occasionally very broad-faced. They have a stronger Cro-Magnid appearance.It´s true that his fälische Rasse doesn´t show up in earlier works. He probably was forced to accept its existance in order to explain what happened to the Cro-Magnoids. In later books he didn´t regard them as a branch of Nordic but as a individual race itself. He connected them to the megalithic culture of Northern Europe while the Nordics were viewed as the carriers of the Battle-Axe culture. The intermixture of both races allegedly gave birth to the proto-Germanics. Other German anthropologists of that time still considered the Phalians as a branch of Nordics or the East-Baltics as a branch of Alpine.

Nordgau
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 04:26 PM
It´s true that his fälische Rasse doesn´t show up in earlier works. He probably was forced to accept its existance in order to explain what happened to the Cro-Magnoids. In later books he didn´t regard them as a branch of Nordic but as a individual race itself. He connected them to the megalithic culture of Northern Europe while the Nordics were viewed as the carriers of the Battle-Axe culture. The intermixture of both races allegedly gave birth to the proto-Germanics. Other German anthropologists of that time still considered the Phalians as a branch of Nordics or the East-Baltics as a branch of Alpine.

Günther's first edition of the Rassenkunde des deutschen Volkes was published in 1922. The Cromagnoid Phalians however weren't "discovered" before 1924 by Paudler, as dalische Rasse. Paudler's (and Kern's) dalische Rasse entered Günther's works as fälische Rasse in 1927, I think (or maybe it was 1928).

Triglav
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 06:24 PM
East-Baltics as a branch of Alpine.

This is not too far-fetched, actually, even though Baltids come in all shapes and sizes (but so do Alpinids to some extent if we don't discount North Alpines, popularly termed Borreby). Genetics currently indicates that both are reduced and/or foetalised earlier UPs.

Zyklop
Saturday, January 8th, 2005, 06:29 PM
This is not too far-fetched, actually, even though Baltids come in all shapes and sizes (but so do Alpinids to some extent if we don't discount North Alpines, popularly termed Borreby). Genetics currently indicates that both are reduced and/or foetalised earlier UPs.
So no connection to the Uralics or Mongolians?

Náttfari
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 05:05 PM
I am from Canada so I say that I am Canadian, but I identify more with my Icelandic heritage. When someone asks "what are you?", I say I'm Icelandic, not I'm Canadian. Any immigrant can be Canadian, just like any immigrant can be German, Swedish, Norwegian, etc. I think you are what your "roots" are and not where you may live. I hope that made sense!

In my mind the people living in N-America with "Icelandic heritage" are not Icelanders! Just having an Icelandic grandparent or great-grandparent doesn't make you Icelandic.

Blood without roots means nothing. You're Canadian. Face it.

Erlingr Hárbarðarson
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 05:50 PM
In my mind the people living in N-America with "Icelandic heritage" are not Icelanders! Just having an Icelandic grandparent or great-grandparent doesn't make you Icelandic.

Blood without roots means nothing. You're Canadian. Face it.

Agreed, a Ghormuil. Blood that is culture-less and void of its native lifeforce is not pure, nor connected, blood, but rather an ill-bound ghost of what once was and shall truly never symbolise that of its origo...ever. Being of the northseed is much more intricate than being exclusively of pure ancestry. Egill, fore instance, would not have been the northman which he was, with out having embraced the wisdom and heathen way of his kinsfolk afore him. Praise be to him on this cold night.

Logos_
Tuesday, February 8th, 2005, 07:11 PM
There are multiple factors to be considered:

1. Race
2. Culture
3. Self-Identification

---
An 'ethnic German' is racially indicative with cultural affiliations (perhaps the parents were born within Germany proper) and self-identifies to a certain degree but resides outside Germany's national boundaries. For example: The Germans of Danzig, became ethnic Germans under Polish jurisdiction and (proper) German (nationals) again after the Blitz.

Needless to say, it's a complicated issue. Especially the politics of #3. Deutschland, like other 'nations', is a relatively modern phenomenon. It was formed by Prussian leadership that no longer exists... and yet has ties to much older things...

For many, 'Deutschland' is an ideal not reflected in current circumstances... Yet even without leadership it continues on with its language, its bloodlines; its created, collective destiny...

Nordgau
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 10:16 PM
My point is that if, say, Rumsfeld has a son who is born in Germany, grows up there are only speak German, becomes a National Socialist ( :biggrin: ) and culturally German, would be considered an ethnic German, regardless of his father's leanings? Perhaps! BUT! Would a Turkish individual born in Germany, culturally German, and supportive of Hitler, be then considered ethnic German too? No!! Why? Because it is all in the blood. Race is the most important. Traitors can have patriotic children, and vice versa. Political stance does not create an ethnic group. Or does it?

Remembers me of the case of John Amery who made in Lord Haw-Haw's club German broadcast propaganda in Berlin during World War II - while his father was Secretary of State for India in Churchill's war cabinet at the same time. Well, every family has its black sheep -; of course, this refers to daddy. :beer1:

Thobjorn
Sunday, February 27th, 2005, 11:45 PM
okay, i have a question then. what if someone has two german grandparents, and two indo northern european grand parents? or what if someone is half german and half irish?

Northern Paladin
Monday, February 28th, 2005, 04:07 AM
okay, i have a question then. what if someone has two german grandparents, and two indo northern european grand parents? or what if someone is half german and half irish?

Northern European is genearlly Germanic. As for half German half Irish. That's Celto-Germanic.