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Glenlivet
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 03:44 PM
Richard Sjöberg, an example of Hälsingland (more racial Battle-Axe influence) sub-type of Trönder. Agneta Sjödin is a female example.

Agneta Sjödin: http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=893 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foru ms.skadi.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D893)

He married a beautiful woman who has a similar phenotype to himself, as you can see for yourself in one of the pictures.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=76659&d=1096641861 http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=76661&d=1096641861

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=76660&d=1096641861

Glenlivet
Friday, October 1st, 2004, 04:06 PM
My understanding of the relation between some essentially Nordid types and sub-types that are common in Central - and Northern European countries.

I think that there's a gradual difference between the Anglo-Saxon (or what Coon called NORDICS ALTERED BY NORTHWESTERN EUROPEAN UPPER PALAEOLITHIC MIXTURE in The Races of Europe, plate 33, Fig 1, that correspond with the description of Anglo-Saxon, which was common among Angles, Saxons and Jutes) and Keltic Nordic (common among Celtae and Belgae, thus the Germanokelten, and not the Celts of Broca, Dally and Lagneau) sub-types. The main differences is that the latter has finer features, slighter build, less massive long-bones, a sloping forehead, lower vault, a jaw not as deep, and on average, darker hair. I think that Nigel Havers1 is a good male example of a British (for a Continental European, see Simon Ammann) Keltic Nordic. There's a type, which was by Coon called Nordics altered by Mixture with Southwestern Borreby and Alpine Elements, that is in both racial components and anthropometrically intermediate of the Anglo-Saxon and Keltic Nordic sub-types. Enoch Powell2 had a phenotype that is close to how the type was described. A good female representative is possibly British athlete Kelly Sotherton3.

Richard Vernon4, Chris Chittel5 and in particular beaky-nosed Stan Richards6 also have phenotypes that I think are of the Anglo-Saxon form. There's a similar but slightly different type, that lack the robustness of the Anglo-Saxon. The type is lankier, slender, longer - and narrower-faced, with a high, almost straight, only gradually sloping forehead, straight to convex nose, but not of the angular form. I've seen some who call those traits Anglo-Saxon, but that's to me more of a type Coon called Nordic with Corded predominance7. I think that George Bush8 Senior is a great example of that. Although he's quite similar to the type, I don't think that John Cleese is an equally good example as I'm of the opinion that he has some Atlanto-Mediterranid (or the similarly defined North-Atlantid of Swedish anthropologist Bertil Lundman) physical traits. Michel Barnier9 is one of the best examples that I can give of Nordid with Corded predominance.

Anglo-Saxon is closest to Trönder out of Coon's Nordid types. The Nordid with Corded predominance is more or less similar to the very grand, sharp, often brown-haired and blue-eyed local Hälsingland (e.g. among males like Rickard Sjöberg and females Agneta Sjödin10) sub-type of Trönder which was the predominating type of northeastern Dalarna and Hälsingland when half a century ago studies were conducted in those regions.

Pictures:

1. Nigel Havers - Keltic Nordic
http://www.funkypancake.com/blog/archives/DSC04525.jpg

Continental example Simon Ammann:
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=851&page=2

2. Enoch Powell - Nordic altered by Mixture with Southwestern Borreby and Alpine Elements

http://www.s-t.com/daily/02-98/02-09-98/powell.jpg
http://www.zen21902.zen.co.uk/ebaden.jpg

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/troeplate34.htm

See Fig.2 of the Fleming man.
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe342a.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe342b.jpg
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/troe342c.jpg

3. Kelly Sotherton - Nordic altered by Mixture with Southwestern Borreby and Alpine Elements

4. Richard Vernon - Anglo-Saxon

5. Chris Chittel - Anglo-Saxon

6. Stan Richards - Anglo-Saxon

7. Nordic with Corded predominance
FIG. 4 . New Englander of Colonial British descent. This tall, slenderly built, ash-blond-haired Nordic is an extreme example of the Corded type which entered Britain first during the Bronze Age in conjunction with brachycephals, and later during the Iron Age as an element in the Nordic invading groups. Its presence in New England in 1938 can only be regarded as a complete reemergence.

CS Coon, The Races of Europe, Plate 27, THE NORDIC RACE: EXAMPLES OF CORDED PREDOMINANCE, The MacMillian Company, New York, 1948

8. George Bush Senior (Nordic with Corded predominance), of the same type as above.
http://www.help-for-you.com/news/Oct2001/Oct30/abc_bush_senior_chicago_29oct01_150.jpg

9. Michel Barnier (Nordic with Corded predominance), see thread "French Nordid":
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=1119

10. Rickard Sjöberg (Hälsingland sub-type) see thread: http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=1122
Agneta Sjödin (Hälsingland sub-type): http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=893

Glenlivet
Sunday, October 3rd, 2004, 01:16 PM
Some more Anglo-Saxons.

A sub-type of Nordid with a combination of Iron Age Nordic with Megalithic, Brünn and Borreby elements, and with a larger ratio of Corded than in the Hallstatt Nordic. It's in comparison with other Nordid types coarser and characterised by a heavier body build, by a larger vault and face, and a rather high head with a greater size and robusticity of a skull form on the borderline between dolicho - and mesocephaly. The cranial base is wider and the cranium is as a whole steep sided with a well-rounded occiput, and frequently lambdoidally flattened.

Muscularity is more pronounced indicated by deep pits and ridges on the thick and heavy long bones. The type is tall and have a considerable body weight that is correlated with a larger braincase.

The jaw is deep, with a great distance from lower tooth line to chin and with a long, sloping ascending ramus.

The nasal bones are highly arched, with often a considerable nasion depression.

The forehead is broader and relatively straight (compared with other Nordids). The supraorbital ridges are greater (moderate to heavy). The type show suggestions of the Trönder.

Males

1. Sir Robert Atkins

2. Den Dover

3. Jeffrey Titford

4. Ben Fogle

Females

5. Julie Brown

6. Glenda Linscott

7. Petula Clark

7. Julie Andrews

SouthernBoy
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 12:09 AM
What measurements would be used to find the depth of the mandible and what measurements would be considered deep, moderate, and shallow?

cosmocreator
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 12:40 AM
What measurements would be used to find the depth of the mandible and what measurements would be considered deep, moderate, and shallow?


http://www.geocities.com/pbateman852/clp.htm

gn to go.

SouthernBoy
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 01:41 AM
What would 110.49 mm be considered as?

Allenson
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 09:03 PM
http://www.geocities.com/pbateman852/clp.htm

gn to go.


Interesting. I've always interpreted jaw depth as meaning, in this case, id-gn. In other words, the great distance between the top of the lower gum to the bottom of the chin. At least on the living, that is. Being most notable among Nordics, Brunns, Faelids and blends thereof.

Coon did note that the skulls of Anglo-Saxon invaders of Britain did have often have a "long and sloping ascending ramus" which is from go-cdl.

Here's the quote in full

"The Anglo-Saxon skeletons which have been described earlier are derived from the graves of the heathen period, from the fifth to the end of the ninth centuries. The skulls from these graves82 make a striking contrast to the Keltic Iron Age type which preceded them. While the Iron Age forehead is extremely sloping, that of the Anglo-Saxon skulls is rather steep and high, and the skulls which possess mandibles show that the Anglo-Saxon type was deep jawed, with a great distance from lower tooth line to chin and with a long, sloping ascending ramus."

Glenlivet
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 09:32 PM
What you noted is chin height (id-gn), which is indeed greater in the types that you mentioned.

The mandible of the Keltic Nordic is much shallower and narrower (that of the width, bigonial). The chin is of moderate dimensions.

There are measurements of go-go (bigonial width) but I have not seen any of gn-go.

One must also mention that the asending rami of the lower jaw in all Europids is developed.


Interesting. I've always interpreted jaw depth as meaning, in this case, id-gn. In other words, the great distance between the top of the lower gum to the bottom of the chin. At least on the living, that is. Being most notable among Nordics, Brunns, Faelids and blends thereof.

SouthernBoy
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 10:25 PM
An ascending rami would be a projecting chin?

Glenlivet
Monday, October 4th, 2004, 11:04 PM
No, rami is only the plural form of ramus. The word is from Latin, the meaning of ramus is branch and rami branches.

The ascending rami is those portions of the jaw which branch upwards from behind the rearmost molar teeth.

You can see the ramus in this picture which shows the outer surface of a mandible:
http://www.wordiq.com/knowledge/images/6/64/Gray176.png


An ascending rami would be a projecting chin?

Allenson
Tuesday, October 5th, 2004, 02:35 PM
Anglo-Saxon[/B] (or what Coon called NORDICS ALTERED BY NORTHWESTERN EUROPEAN UPPER PALAEOLITHIC MIXTURE in The Races of Europe, plate 33, Fig 1, that correspond with the description of Anglo-Saxon, which was common among Angles, Saxons and Jutes) and Keltic Nordic (common among Celtae and Belgae, thus the Germanokelten, and not the Celts of Broca, Dally and Lagneau) sub-types. The main differences is that the latter has finer features, slighter build, less massive long-bones, a steeper forehead, lower vault, a jaw not as deep, and on average, darker hair.


I think that you are accurate in your assessments, Balder--except that I'm wondering about your comment on the "steeper forehead" of the Keltic type. I've always been under the impression that the Kelt has a more sloping forehead and the A-S has the steeper, more vertical of the two.... Correct me if I am wrong though.

Otherwise, a fine post indeed. :)

Glenlivet
Tuesday, October 5th, 2004, 05:57 PM
I've always been under the impression that the Kelt has a more sloping forehead and the A-S has the steeper, more vertical of the two.... Correct me if I am wrong though.

You are absolutely correct. It's good that you take the time to make such corrections. Corded had a relatively steep forehead. The Anglo-Saxon has a relatively straight forehead, but it's like you said steep and high, and that of the Keltic Nordic is extremely sloping.


Otherwise, a fine post indeed. :)

Thank you :).

Väring
Thursday, October 7th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Balder: Can you mention one piece of work where Lundman describes Hälsingetypen?

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 7th, 2004, 08:56 PM
In Lundman's Dala-Allmogens Antropologi (suggestiong of it also in Dalarnas Folk - Typer och Härstamning) and Hälsingarna etc. (Ljusnan 27 seot. 1940.)

It is mentioned in various works by Lundman.

Hälsingetypen is also called West-Baltid. It is a more original variety of the Trönder (also called Svea type by e.g. Flodström and Nordenstreng). The types is tall, blonde, mesocephalic and high-skulled.



Balder: Can you mention one piece of work where Lundman describes Hälsingetypen?