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Loki
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 04:31 PM
Which is more assimilable into a Nordic society? Pick one.

Awar
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 04:54 PM
Both

Loki
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 04:58 PM
Both

I have amended the poll so your pick could also be represented.

Awar
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 05:28 PM
Oops this was a mistake. I thought I saw 'Nordish' society, I don't think either one is assimilable in Nordic society because it wouldn't be good for the preservation of typical Nordic traits.

Nordhammer
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 06:40 PM
Atlanto obviously, let's not be silly. You might as well ask which are more assimilable, British or Montenegrins.

Awar
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 06:59 PM
Unfortunately for you, Pontids are scarce in Montenegro. In fact, there are more Atlanto-Meds in the west Balkans than Pontids.

Most Atlanto-Meds are in Spain, Brittish meds are Paleo-Atlantid I think.
Montenegro is Upper-Palaeolithic and Dinaric with minority Med types similar to Herzegovina.

Or, maybe nordhammer was speaking about Pakis, god knows that there are a lot of them living and interbreeding with Brits, especially English. McCulloch will probably invent a new category to explain Paki-English halfbreeds, labeling them as Paleo-Aryanids, indigenous to paleolithic England :-D

Tore
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 07:30 PM
Equally assimilable.

Agrippa
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 07:50 PM
Atlanto-Mediterraneans are nearer than Pontids, so I voted for Atlanto-Meds, but both are in fact assimilable.

I think all real Europeans are.

The question is just where is the advantage to do so? And thats I'm saying as an totally mixed person which I think looks phenotypically like an slightly Dinarized Atlanto-Med or dark Nordic...at least more than anything else because I'm totally mixed.

If there would be "a need" to mix up, or it just happens, I think its not totally wrong, but we shouldnt force this trend.
Today we got much more problems, because if you have Negroes in your society, the question if Atlantic or Pontic is not the main one...

Loki
Thursday, December 25th, 2003, 08:22 PM
Paki-English halfbreeds,

The naked lady in your sig looks like one of them ;-)

Awar
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 02:08 AM
@Loki
At least I never invented fancy anthropological names just to rationalize her existence :-)

These rayshullists invent huge differences in 'assimilability' between Brittish Atlanto-Meds and Basque Atlanto-Meds who accidentally have the exact same DNA. One are oh so Nordish, while the other are ugh yuck swarthies.

Somehow, Brits are pure Nordish, while very similar Ukrainians are not assimilable.

Sorry, but such a concept stretches the suspension of disbelief way too thin.

galvez
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 03:56 AM
Atlanto obviously, let's not be silly. You might as well ask which are more assimilable, British or Montenegrins.

While I was given a "Paleo-Atlantid" classification by a couple of hard-core Nordicists, I will acknowledge that it was the Greeks, not my ancestors, who produced the greatest civilization the world has ever known. Despite the state that Greece is in today, I will never, ever place "Atlanto-Meds" (including myself) at the level of the Greeks, feeling a phony superiority based on phenotype and a very flawed political philosophy with fetishistic overtones.

Loki
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 08:47 AM
While I was given a "Paleo-Atlantid" classification by a couple of hard-core Nordicists, I will acknowledge that it was the Greeks, not my ancestors, who produced the greatest civilization the world has ever known. Despite the state that Greece is in today, I will never, ever place "Atlanto-Meds" (including myself) at the level of the Greeks, feeling a phony superiority based on phenotype and a very flawed political philosophy with fetishistic overtones.

You believe in Greek superiority, then. Well I would have agreed with you in the heydays of Sparta & Athens, and the empire of Alexander - but not today. If the Greeks are so very superior, then why are they (besides Portugal) the poorest and most miserable nation in the EU? Could it be that those British untermenschen of yours have given them a raw deal? Even Slovenia is set to overtake Greece in prosperity ratings very soon.

Awar
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 02:51 PM
I don't know if any of you have ever been to either Greece or Slovenia, I have.
Greeks live way better than Slovenes, not in terms of economy, but in terms of the ratio of economy and quality of life.

Slovenes may earn more, but they also work more, all work, no play. Greeks don't have such a 'worker's cult' :-)

Louky
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 01:14 AM
[QUOTE=AWAR]@Loki
These rayshullists invent huge differences in 'assimilability' between Brittish Atlanto-Meds and Basque Atlanto-Meds who accidentally have the exact same DNA. One are oh so Nordish, while the other are ugh yuck swarthies.
[QUOTE]

Are you sure about this? It it's true I'm totally bewildered. I continually hear that the Paleo-Atlantids are actually Atlanto-Meds (another distinction from Med proper) and are in the general Mediterranid subrace, yet most physical anthropologists either put the Basques in their own category or in with the Alpinids as reduced UPs. To be fair, I've also read that the Basques were Meds, too (why?). The pictures I've seen of Basques and the two Basques (wow, that's significant) I've known personally sure seem to warrant a category of their own.

Also, phenotype aside, I don't know how the PAs could live cheek-by-jowl with Bruenns and Nordics for centuries and retain such a distinctive genetic profile. I wonder, when McCullogh states a statistic, like, "Ten per cent. of the English are Paleo-Atlantid," whether he is saying that a segregated population of Paleo-Atlantids exists or if at any one time 10 per cent. of the English population will have the Paleo-Atlantid phenotype.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 01:29 AM
I don't know if any of you have ever been to either Greece or Slovenia, I have.
Greeks live way better than Slovenes, not in terms of economy, but in terms of the ratio of economy and quality of life.


If Slovenians were objectively happier than Greeks, then their men wouldn't kill themselves at 842% the Greek rate, nor would their women kill themselves at 1158% the Greek rate.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm

Louky
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 01:33 AM
If Slovenians were objectively happier than Greeks, then their men wouldn't kill themselves at 842% the Greek rate, nor would their women kill themselves at 1158% the Greek rate.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm

The Greeks know how to live and Greece works just fine. Money isn't everything.

Evolved
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 03:23 AM
I voted both. Pontids are alright by me. North Atlantids too. I'm peripheral Nordish, can I 'assimilate' the big duke? http://www.skadi.net/~ladygoeth/smilies/naughty.gifhttp://www.forums.skadi.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Vojvoda
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 03:25 AM
can I 'assimilate' the big duke? http://www.skadi.net/~ladygoeth/smilies/naughty.gifhttp://www.forums.skadi.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hell yeah! ;-)

Awar
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 03:33 AM
Of course the Greeks know how to live, that's what I said in the first place.
If you value everything with money, than you're no better than the ones you hate most ;-)

Loki
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 09:32 AM
Somehow, Brits are pure Nordish, while very similar Ukrainians are not assimilable.

.

There is a vast difference between British and Ukrainian phenotype. Ukrainians are darker, have more brown eyes and less blond hair.

Tore
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 09:29 PM
There is a vast difference between British and Ukrainian phenotype. Ukrainians are darker, have more brown eyes and less blond hair.

What do you base this conclusion upon?

The only data TRoE provides is on Volhynian Ukrainians, who, although lighter than other Ukrainians, are also apparantly lighter than the Scottish, English, and Welsh.

Most of them have the expected white skin, ranging on the inner arm from von Luschan #7-12, while roughly one-eighth are darker, with brunet-white or light brown shades (von L. #13-16). Vascularity is as common as among most Nordics, and the women, working outdoors. are often red-cheeked. The hair color usually changes with age, as in all prevailingly blond populations; between the ages of 21 and 30, medium brown (Fischer #5, #8) and ash-blond (#26) shades are most frequent; later these darken in many cases. There is little or no truly black hair, and rufosity is almost absent. The beards are as a rule lighter than the head hair, and over 50 per cent of adult males have face hair which is light-blond (Fischer #12-20). About 15 per cent have pure light eyes (Martin #15-16), and 6 per cent pure brown. The commonest shades are light-mixed, however. As is usual in light-mixed eye color populations, the eyes often lose their brown pigmentation progressively with advancing age. On the whole, the Volhynians are a light-mixed pigment group, with the emphasis on ash-blondism and gray-mixed eye shades. Compared with other Ukrainians, they are blonder as well as shorter in stature.

From this we can infer than Volynians have a rougly equal incidence of medium brown and ash-blond hair, as well as 2.5 times more light eyes than dark (15% vs 6%).

Compare to the Welsh....

In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.


Wales, however, is notably darker eyed. Out of Beddoe's series of 3000, 34 per cent are called brown eyed, 15 per cent mixed, and 51 per cent light. Although the light-eyed element is still the more numerous in the principality as a whole, it is possible to distinguish typically dark-eyed districts. Fleure found between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of "dark" eyes in Landyssul, Newquay, and Denbighshire Upland, and Beddoe found the same among the Abergavenny country people, among the townsmen of Brecon, and in Merthyr and Taffvale. These are all isolated regions, and the antiquity of dark eye color in Wales is evident.

According to this the Welsh have 1.5 times more light eyes than dark (51% vs 34%), and more Black hair (10%) than fair hair (8%).

And the English...

In the large, regional studies of British eye color, 62 per cent of English are called light eyed, and 34 per cent dark.

In England, black hair ranges from nearly 0 to 10 per cent, except in Devonshire and Cornwall, where it reaches a maximum of 20 per cent in the region of Penzance. Along the eastern coast it is extremely rare, and the average for the country is probably between 4 per cent and 5 per cent. Dark brown hair accounts for 14 per cent to 43 per cent of the population in the different parts of England. In general, it runs below 30 per cent in the regions of intensive Saxon and Danish occupation - that is, Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, and Yorkshire - while it averages above 30 per cent in the west, and has a mean of approximately 40 per cent in Cornwall. Brown hair, a light-to-intermediate hue, ranges from 57 per cent to 24 per cent, and has a distribution precisely opposite to that of dark brown hair, which may be considered intermediate-to-dark. On the whole brown is more prevalent than dark brown, and the blond element is considerably more important than the brunet one among the English. Fair hair, representing golden, ashen, and also light brown hues, varies from 5 per cent to 47 per cent. Well over 25 per cent is typical of the North Sea coast, while in Cornwall it runs from 10 per cent to 15 per cent. Among English blonds, golden hair is far commoner than the ashen variety, but ash-blondism is by no means absent, nor as rare as in Ireland.

The English have 1.8 times as many light eyes (62%) when compared to dark(34%). Hair pigmentation is difficult to assess, though it would seem the English are roughly as fair-haired as the Volhynians, and probably fairer haired than Ukrainians as a whole.

And the Scottish...

In Scotland, the systematic study of 7000 adult males and of half a million schoolchildren20 makes our knowledge of the regional distribution of hair color relatively complete. Black hair ranges among adults from 0 to 8 per cent by counties, but nowhere attains the figures observed in Cornwall, Devonshire, and Wales. Dark brown hair accounts for 38 per cent of the population; the medium to light brown shade, with 42 per cent, is the most numerous; fair hair runs to 11 per cent, and red to 5 per cent.

In Scotland, 32 per cent of adult males have pure light eyes, 48 per cent are called mixed, and 20 per cent dark. The latter category probably includes a number of dark-mixed iris patterns. Blue eyes are commonest in the north and south of Scotland, and gray eyes appear in numbers in the Shetlands and Orkneys, under Scandinavian inspiration. Mixed eyes are typical of east central Scotland, while brown eyes reach their highest ratio in the Glasgow region, among the industrial population. The area of Gaelic speech, which Tocher found associated with an excess of dark hair, is also notably blue eyed.

The Scottish have 1.6 times as many light eyes (32%) when compared to dark (20%). We can infer that the Scottish are darker in both hair and eye pigment to the Volynians, yet perhaps lighter than Ukrainians as a whole.



We can only observe how the British compare to the Ukrainians as a whole if I post data from Bunak. Unfortunately you don't consider that "valid" so we are left with the following conclusions:

1) The Volhynian Ukrainians are lighter than the British

2) The Volhynian Ukrainians are lighter than other Ukrainians.

3) There isn't a "vast" difference in pigmentation between the two groups.

Loki
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 09:56 PM
1) The Volhynian Ukrainians are lighter than the British

2) The Volhynian Ukrainians are lighter than other Ukrainians.

3) There isn't a "vast" difference in pigmentation between the two groups.

Your presentation is invalid, since you are using Volhynian Ukrainians as a measure for Ukrainians, who are the lightest of all Ukraine perhaps. Most (or all) other Ukrainians are darker than them. Secondly, your designation "British" is a lump category which has no specific meaning. We all know that Welsh are darker than English & eastern Scots.

The north English fishermen have 90% of light eyes, and the English are for certain as a whole more blond in hair than Ukrainians, if I read Coon correctly.

Loki
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 10:02 PM
3) There isn't a "vast" difference in pigmentation between the two groups.

I would say you are probably correct with this. It seems from what I read, that there isn't a vast difference in pigmentation between the two groups, and it is not so easy to compare them, because of a lack of data. I have my suspicions, though.

Triglav
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 10:41 PM
I don't know if any of you have ever been to either Greece or Slovenia, I have.
Greeks live way better than Slovenes, not in terms of economy, but in terms of the ratio of economy and quality of life.

Slovenes may earn more, but they also work more, all work, no play. Greeks don't have such a 'worker's cult' :-)

I must concur with our friend AWAR that Greece does have an advantage over Slovenia due to its tourism and politics (EU vs. recovery from the Yugoslavian Socialism). Nonetheless, I am not looking forward to the EU, into which we will be admitted in a few months.

In terms of economy and wealth, I assumed that we have already surpassed the Greeks a while ago. Might I be mistaken? The standard of living is no worse than in the countries of the EU I visited - Northern Italy, Austria and Germany - with one difference. While the income is nearly twice as low, the expenses are much lower, too. Oh well, come and see for yourself (and drop me a PM, so we can chat about it over a glass of drink ; ) ).

Tore
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 02:01 AM
Your presentation is invalid, since you are using Volhynian Ukrainians as a measure for Ukrainians, who are the lightest of all Ukraine perhaps. Most (or all) other Ukrainians are darker than them.

I addressed this.


Secondly, your designation "British" is a lump category which has no specific meaning. We all know that Welsh are darker than English & eastern Scots.

You used the term in your original post, therefore I was forced to analyze all three groups.


The north English fishermen have 90% of light eyes, and the English are for certain as a whole more blond in hair than Ukrainians, if I read Coon correctly.

Well, I would agree in that the English are blonder than Ukrainians as a whole.

I'm not so sure about England + Wales vs. Ukraine though, especially when eye pigmentation is incorporated into the mix.

Unfortunately I have found no data which can verify either.

StrÝbog
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 02:55 AM
A knowledgeable source at a secret forum said "Ukrainians have only 6.8% of brown eyes and 28% of light brown and blond hairs (7-26)." ;-)

Ukrainians appear to be lighter-eyed on the whole, but slightly less blonde, than the British.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-X3.htm

You don't like Beddoe's conclusions, but I trust an Englishman's observations about his own land better than those of Nordishist fetishists from America and other places.

Awar
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 03:19 AM
I wonder how 'strong' the depigmented DNA is with Ukrainians compared to Brits.

I know very little about genetics, so please bear with me:

For example: If a brown-eyed ukrainian and blue-eyed ukrainian have a child, what is the chance of the kid being blue-eyed. Is there any difference in this statistic from Ukraine to Britain?

The Blond Beast
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 05:27 AM
Or, maybe nordhammer was speaking about Pakis, god knows that there are a lot of them living and interbreeding with Brits, especially English. McCulloch will probably invent a new category to explain Paki-English halfbreeds, labeling them as Paleo-Aryanids, indigenous to paleolithic England :-D

Hilarious! He certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Louky
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 02:17 PM
What is the proportion of Volhynian Ukrainians to the whole population of the Ukraine? Are we comparing a small group of Ukrainians to the whole of Britain? Unless Volhynian Ukrainians are the majority, wouldn't it be valid to compare the lightest element in the Ukraine to the lightest element in the UK?

AWAR: Do you remember where you found the information that British Paleo-Atlantids are identical with Basques, genetically? Please see post #14.

Awar
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 05:08 PM
@Louky: A Welsh guy on another forum gave me the link, I'll try to find it for you. I'll send it to you on a PM.

Krampus
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 01:45 PM
The idea that just because a Brit is Atlanto-Med in phenotype and subrace means he's going to be genetically the same as a Basque is ridiculous. I too am interested in seeing that link.

Awar
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 05:00 PM
From what I remember, the phenotype wasn't even in question, just DNA.
I'll post the link as soon as I can.

Praetor
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 05:04 PM
I must concur with our friend AWAR that Greece does have an advantage over Slovenia due to its tourism and politics (EU vs. recovery from the Yugoslavian Socialism). Nonetheless, I am not looking forward to the EU, into which we will be admitted in a few months.

In terms of economy and wealth, I assumed that we have already surpassed the Greeks a while ago. Might I be mistaken? The standard of living is no worse than in the countries of the EU I visited - Northern Italy, Austria and Germany - with one difference. While the income is nearly twice as low, the expenses are much lower, too. Oh well, come and see for yourself (and drop me a PM, so we can chat about it over a glass of drink ; ) ).

Since you mention expenses compared probably to prices check the CIA Factbook which gives Slovenia approx. 19,000 ppp (purchasing power parity). By the way,Greece may official appear to have equal ppp to Slovenia but we have a major major side economy which adds another 40-50% to our actual national income.And this phenomenon is observed in such a size only in Greece and Italy.That means that the average Greek adds to his official 19,000 ppp$ another 7,600 to 9,500. I don't know about Slovenia but in Greece the average family has more than one car,80% live in a house owned by them etc etc .The most impressive is that we at the same time have to maintain a huge defence budget because of the turkish military threat .Having visited most of Europe I can freely say that only Scandinavians (mostly thanks to their prosperous social system) seem to have in general higher living standards than Greeks. If someone in EU is miserable that is certainly not Greece.

Awar
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 08:48 PM
Official figures are more often than not misleading.

VseUmnieYaDurak
Saturday, November 25th, 2006, 05:43 PM
You believe in Greek superiority, then. Well I would have agreed with you in the heydays of Sparta & Athens, and the empire of Alexander - but not today. If the Greeks are so very superior, then why are they (besides Portugal) the poorest and most miserable nation in the EU? Could it be that those British untermenschen of yours have given them a raw deal? Even Slovenia is set to overtake Greece in prosperity ratings very soon.
Lol! Since when is the economic prosperity a proof of superiority?! It's rather vice versa!

oneeyeisbetter
Saturday, November 25th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Ok I voted both but only if nordids still breed together while breeding with these meds thus eventualy breeding them out of europe and re-establishing a nordic continental europe and nordic "british" isles.

Outbreeding is my favorite part of germanic preservation!

celticastrian
Saturday, October 23rd, 2010, 11:57 AM
there both europids its because of crap like this that the nazi's lost, all europeans should defend each other , imagine a europe that was for europeans instead of letting immigrants from non white countries work help the fellow Slavs out, i rather have a pole working in my country than a dirty turk!

Catterick
Wednesday, February 1st, 2017, 07:49 AM
Atlanto-Meds are native to parts of the Germanic world. Pontids are native to the Black Sea and the Goths must have acquired some of their blood. The looks are bred out of Germanic speakers today however. It would be nice to know the race of the late Goths in Theodoro.

Wulfaz
Wednesday, February 1st, 2017, 04:29 PM
Pontids and Atlanto-Meds are from the same stock, only the enviroment causes the differences, Atlanto-Meds have CM influence average, the Pontids have Baltid or Mongolid influence average.

Juthunge
Wednesday, February 1st, 2017, 07:34 PM
It would be nice to know the race of the late Goths in Theodoro.

For what it's worth, these are the words of Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, the Flemish ambassador of the Holy Roman Empire to the Ottoman court in the late 16th century: (https://books.google.de/books?id=SlxtO3NpRi4C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=Ogier+Ghiselin+de+Busbecq+i+cannot+he re+omit&source=bl&ots=94RYfzCtvj&sig=ljr0R4dHom3NHRYalPpJpsypg8Q&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTr_PQyu_RAhUmJ5oKHWHeCOgQ6AE IHDAA#v=onepage&q=Ogier%20Ghiselin%20de%20Busbecq%20i%20 cannot%20here%20omit&f=false)

"I cannot here omit what I learnt about a tribe which still dwells in the Crimea, which I had often heard showed traces of a German origin in their language, customs and lastly in their face and habit of body.
[...]
One of them was about the middle height and had an air of superior breeding - you might have taken him for a Fleming or Batavian, the other was shorter, more strongly built and of a dark complexion, being by birth and language a Greek."

So apparently there were still traces left of their northern origin. Also interesting how much of their Germanic vocabulary had apparently survived for more than a thousand years. There are many examples given in the link.



Pontids and Atlanto-Meds are from the same stock, only the enviroment causes the differences, Atlanto-Meds have CM influence average, the Pontids have Baltid or Mongolid influence average.
That kind of mixing would be true of any given population in these areas and not restricted to these subraces. So that's not a defining feature.
By definition both subraces are just equally "pure" taller and somewhat more muscular variants of the standard Mediterranid type caused by, as you said, natural environmental differences.