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Euclides
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 03:41 PM
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi .nlm.nih.gov%2Fentrez%2Fquery.fcgi%3Fcmd %3DRetrieve%26db%3DPubMed%26list_uids%3D 11260506%26dopt%3DAbstract)

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 04:04 PM
Thats a wierd result.

Fig 1 goes Greek-Ethiopid (ie Coon's East African Capsians), then Negroid-Sanid and then Meds. It could be related to the Epipaleolithic element into subsaharan Africa but it looks wierd anyway.

I wonder wether the "negroid" genetic element suggested by figure 3 is actually of a Mechtoid common origin, because the Africans grouped with the Greeks are at the fringe of the area inhabited by Mechtoids before the spread of Capsians.

I think that this doesn't support anything as strange as it sounds, if you know physical anthropology.

Euclides
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Thats a wierd result.

Fig 1 goes Greek-Ethiopid (ie Coon's East African Capsians), then Negroid-Sanid and then Meds. It could be related to the Epipaleolithic element into subsaharan Africa but it looks wierd anyway.

I wonder wether the "negroid" genetic element suggested by figure 3 is actually of a Mechtoid common origin, because the Africans grouped with the Greeks are at the fringe of the area inhabited by Mechtoids before the spread of Capsians.


Can you tell us more about Sanid Capsians and Mechtoids origins and characterisitics?

Louky
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 04:09 PM
This may only mean that the Megalithic people (also called Atlanto-Mediterraneans) settled in Greece as well as Skandinavia, Britain, East Africa, and Iraq: not news. After all, Baker postulated that the early settlers in Britain were Ethiopid, a point that made a racialist, British-derived friend of mine bristle (I still like to tease him about it, although I'm basically British and Irish derived also).

As I recall, Coon showed that skulls from Neolithic England compare well with those of Neolithic East Africa, but not so well as with those from Sumeria, a region which may have been the origin of the Megalithic people.

East Africa was undoubtedly part of the Caucasian realm in ancient times, with the Negroid racial element increasing in very recent times. After all, the Nubians, originating in West Africa, were in the midst of settlement of the Sudan in Roman times.

In all the regions where the Megalithic people settled, they have undergone divergent evolution as well as mixture with the stock of subsequent invasions. That's why the Megalithic element in Britain doesn't make them "Mediterraneans" any more than Megalithics in Greece, who have diverged and mingled with Alpines, Meds Proper, etc., are Negroid just because Megalithics in East Africa have mingled with Negroes.

morfrain_encilgar
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Can you tell us more about Sanid Capsians and Mechtoids origins and characterisitics?

Ive posted about MEchtoids and Capsians on Skadi before if you use the search to see what I have said about them ( for mechtoid, eurafrican, Afalou, Taforalt etc). I also posted a comparison of the skulls. Frans also writes about this ancient type.

The Capoid Sanids aren't what I mean by Capsians, who were gracile Mediterranids. They are associated with a haplogroup which arrived from the east and replaced the haplogroup which is thought to be associated with the Mechtoids. This previous haplogroup was largely replaced, but the dental remains of Iberomaurusians from Taforalt show continuity with later North Africans. Groves and Thorne also considered Taforalt to be similar to Upper Paleolithic Europeans. But Afalou and East African Mechtoids had similarities to modern subsaharans, although they are still racially Eurafrican, not Negroid. The first example of a type that is similar to Mechtoids is said to be Taramsa I in Egypt, which is incompletely modern.

I posted a picture of skull from a Mesolithic male from East Africa, and the closest guess was a relationship to the Touareg and to the other North Africans.

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, April 18th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Thats a wierd result.

Fig 1 goes Greek-Ethiopid (ie Coon's East African Capsians), then Negroid-Sanid and then Meds. It could be related to the Epipaleolithic element into subsaharan Africa but it looks wierd anyway.

I wonder wether the "negroid" genetic element suggested by figure 3 is actually of a Mechtoid common origin, because the Africans grouped with the Greeks are at the fringe of the area inhabited by Mechtoids before the spread of Capsians.

I think that this doesn't support anything as strange as it sounds, if you know physical anthropology.

Where comes this equation Subsaharan=Negrid when the most we can make from Subsaharan fossils is that they share obviously modern and archaic traits, with a possibly higher frequency of the former, but whatever came by a Negroid is ambivalent; a likelier explanation is to resort it as Australoid and kindred, even as recent in time as the mesolithic, the skulls show, not discounting Capoid or incipient Negroid characteristics, a nice share of Europoid features which cant be that easyly divested from credibility.

Subsaharan, NW European and East Asian, etc. all these terms are linked to particular human life zones and are best defined as ecological racial classifications pertaining to breeding communities of several morphological races given in a delimited geographical, climatological and environmental habitat or biotope.

Nordhammer
Monday, August 9th, 2004, 01:50 AM
http://www.white-history.com/greece.htm

SouthernBoy
Monday, August 9th, 2004, 03:06 AM
We should post this on "Il Romanesco Fronte." I am sure they would be thrilled. :icon_lol:

Jakub
Monday, August 9th, 2004, 05:44 AM
We should post this on "Il Romanesco Fronte." I am sure they would be thrilled. :icon_lol:


There were several problems with this study. They were raised online by Greeks, and they certainly made sense to me. But I don't have any links at the present time.

Jakub
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004, 12:35 AM
Here's the full report (see attachment). Interesting reading, I must say. But as I've mentioned, it may not tell us the whole story.

Nordhammer
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004, 09:24 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=571&stc=1

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=572&stc=1