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Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 03:47 AM
A lot of people I noticed tend to be uninformed about the Armenians. Words like SWARTHY, MIDDLE EASTERNER and other terms are used to describe the Armenians. I think it mostly stems from anti-Armenian Russian movements. As an Armenian, I want my people to prosper and befriend those whome we have only hopes in prospering (Europeans). However the Armenians are so distributed with such a small population, that they are not unified and in touch with their individual Armenianism, be it Galac, Giligian, Vaneci, or whatever.

Armenia, like every nation, has a capitol with people from all over the world. Its inhabitants range from Gypsies and Kurds, Assyrians and Greeks, to Turkmens Russians, Poles and Ukrainians. However, the Armenians of the diaspora (from Syria, Turkey, and other stolen lands) remained one type of people, and did not assimilate with foreigners as many large modern Armenian cities. However, in cities of Turkey, Syria and Armenia, real Armenians can still be found. About half of Jerevan (capitol of Armenia) is made of up Arevelian Armenians (arevel means sunrise or East) who are Gypsies essentially, they are shunned in the Armenian villages and by Western Armenians. Many Assyrians changed their last names and became Armenians by adding IAN, but they are still detectable (dark skin and hair) and have assyrian sirnames with armenian endings. Below Ive posted pictures from the Armenian magazine of the diaspora AGBU (Armenian General Benevolent Union), one issue of the magazine, to show people what the Armenians look like. Just as Ladogans and Bashkirs are not real Russians, the Cigansks and Arevels are not Armenians.

Heavy influx of Arevels from Iran and Armenia into Russia occured because of cultural warfare between the Armenians. Many thought Russia would be a better choice to claim Armenianism. Most Russian Armenians are Arevels. But there are many from Turkey, Deepees, who are not Arevels and escaped from the genocide, and later fled to America.

I've posted these pictures and I'd like to hear from all members (biast or non-biast) about their opinions on these AGBU Armenians. Are they "white"? European? Middle-Eastern? Mongrels? Turks? Martians? Describe. I will post more pictures of Armenians as soon as I scan more.

The first 3 are Western (Turkish region) Armenians from Camp Nubar, an organization for Armenians to come together. The next 5 are from the village Abov in Armenia, whome inhabitants mostly come from the Black Sea region of Turkey (some locals as well, such as from Gyumri AKA Leninagan). The next picture is of the Armenian Dance Association (Bar da Horo), and the last is the Armenian President Robert Kocharian, who is a Western Armenian by last name, who I think looks kinda funny. Post away and please do not offend.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:03 AM
AoC Armenian Festival

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:07 AM
I have great respect for the Armenian people and their role throughout history.
From the pictures you posted, I see that Armenians look very different from other nations ( except probably other Caucasian ethnicities ).

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:15 AM
From Armenia (in and around Jerevan).

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:20 AM
Thank you Awar, as I too respect the Serbians, and consider them akin to my people (although Armenians arnt slavs). I find our culture amongst other things is indeed similar. I've noticed many Serbs, including yourself, have been pro-Armenian, and know about our past. I thank you for your respect and support of me and my cause, as well as my people! Did you know, that Milosevic and Kocarian made tradeoffs for troops and weapons during the Mujahadin invasions of both Serbia and Nagorno Armenia?

Perhaps its true that Armenians are different from others, but it is no reason to persecute them. I beleive in the respect and preservation of all cultures. Besides Turks, whome have no business on the lands they inherrited from us! Also the nation of Syria, who hold Armenian towns as Aleppo (modern day Halab), and southern Giligan cities such as Kassablanca (Kasab), Alexandreta. The Arab and Iranian people have not helped the Armenians, but constantly attacked, persecuted, and stole our women. The muslims still collaborate against the Armenians.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:33 AM
All besides last (Armenian March in London) are from the AEW, whome the head of MGM Hotel and Casino was said to have been member of.

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:49 AM
Armenians and Serbs together fought against Mujahiddins in both Bosnia and Nagorno.
Armenia and Serbia are defenders of Europe, only a fool can discard the people who fight at their borders, because if lands like Serbia, Armenia or Spain fall to Islam, then, the next time, borders of the Islamic world will be in Germany.

Henrik
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 04:54 AM
aparently many of the armenian you posted are assimilated with europeans, thus are not full bloodied armenians.
I think Kasparov looks really armenian albeit he is only half armenian

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 05:11 AM
I doubt that all Armenians belong to just one phenotype. No ethnicity does.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 05:12 AM
aparently many of the armenian you posted are assimilated with europeans, thus are not full bloodied armenians.
I think Kasparov looks really armenian albeit he is only half armenian

Assimilated with Europeans? What Europeans? What is a full blooded Armenian? These are the average Turkish-Armenians, most of whome belong to AGBU. I don't think you, as a non-armenian, have the right to judge who or who isnt fully Armenian. Kasparov is a half-jew, you probably have the picture of a hook nosed person representing the Armenian people, which isnt common for northern europeans. Either way, Kasparov could just as well pass for an Armenian, although being an Armenian myself, I think he looks more like a Caucasian or Circasian.

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 05:20 AM
The Armenoid type is supposed to be a mix between the Irano-Afghan ( Iranian-Nordic ) and the Alpinid type which was common in those parts of the world.

If you knew how large Armenia once was, you'd see that it would be impossible for such a state to be phenotype homogenous.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 05:47 AM
The first 3 are Western (Turkish region) Armenians from Camp Nubar, an organization for Armenians to come together.

Since Camp Nubar is a US organization it's impossible to determine whether the children pictured are of pure Armenian ethnic descent.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 05:55 AM
I am also extremely skeptical of claims that there exist "pure" Armenians and some Armenians are not "pure", just as I am skeptical about similar claims about "pure ethnic Russians" and "impure" ones. I'm not saying that there's no ethnic differentiation in either Russians or Armenians, but an independent ethnographic/anthropological source detailing these distinctions would be appreciated.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 06:02 AM
I am also extremely skeptical of claims that there exist "pure" Armenians and some Armenians are not "pure", just as I am skeptical about similar claims about "pure ethnic Russians" and "impure" ones. I'm not saying that there's no ethnic differentiation in either Russians or Armenians, but an independent ethnographic/anthropological source detailing these distinctions would be appreciated.

Camp NUBAR, is an Armenian-American organization, I myself have been to AGBU's Camp Nubar, AYF CAMP, Alex Pilibos, and others, 1 out of 50 of them were either half Armenians or Eastern Armenians. Do you really think 50 percent of those are not Armenians? Are Armenians not allowed to have depigmentation or something? Does this mean me and my family are not Armenians?? If you knew more about Western and non-arevel Armenians you would know they look lighter, and hence why they would assimilate more with westerners.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 06:18 AM
I am also extremely skeptical of claims that there exist "pure" Armenians and some Armenians are not "pure", just as I am skeptical about similar claims about "pure ethnic Russians" and "impure" ones. I'm not saying that there's no ethnic differentiation in either Russians or Armenians, but an independent ethnographic/anthropological source detailing these distinctions would be appreciated.
I was only letting those who are not Armenian, and whome do not know that many Armenians that the armenians have absorbed non Armenian peoples such as Gypsies who passed through Armenia, and Iranians who controlled Armenia, and settled in the eastern fronts, you also have to remember that regions like cilicia, cappadocia, pontus were Armenian states, that remained independently controlled under the Romans, Arabs, etc:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/nnc/parthia/images/pamap.jpg

However, all Armenians, are Armenians, but the eastern Armenians, especially of Russia, are decendants of Arevelian (people of the sun rise). Western Armenian is called Aremetahye, for "people of the sun set" in Armenia. What is now Turkey. Most Armenians do not mix outside of their race, and especially not outside their religion, as it is considered a ban from the Armenian community (as it originally was in Turkey). Being Armenian is not being one of coons outdated racial classifications that have no meaning in the modern anthropological world. However they can be used to classify certain ethnic groups of today.

If you visit Armenian inhabited regions of America, such as Fresno, New York city, Boston, youll see that the majority of them stay within their own. Thats more than can be said about Italians etc.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 06:56 AM
Ive managed to scan all the Diaspora pics from my AGBU magazine. Here are some pictures from Turkey, Syria, and Cyprus. Most are of the Armenian orphanages in Syria and other middle eastern countries were Armenians were free to start their own organizations. Many are from the time of the war itself.
Hence there are no "americans" amongst these Armenians. They seem to look the same to me...

http://www.armenianfilmfoundation.com/pics/children.jpg

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:07 AM
Do you really think 50 percent of those are not Armenians? Are Armenians not allowed to have depigmentation or something? Does this mean me and my family are not Armenians??

I did not say that 50 percent of those are not Armenians, simply that since these pictures are of Armenian Americans it is impossible to establish that the individuals in them are of pure Armenian descent. Hence the pictures do nothing to inform us about the range of pigmentation of ethnic Armenians.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:14 AM
I did not say that 50 percent of those are not Armenians, simply that since these pictures are of Armenian Americans it is impossible to establish that the individuals in them are of pure Armenian descent. Hence the pictures do nothing to inform us about the range of pigmentation of ethnic Armenians.

Well if pictures of me, my family, people I know, and organizations I belong to, I don't know what else I can do besides posting those pictures from the diaspora, which arnt as clear as in the magazine, that show fairly large amounts of blonde children. Either way the focus was not blondism, but Armenian identity. Frequently Armenians are confused for swarthy Arab-looking people, which they are most certainly not. These are the rest of the camp photos, the large pohto is AYF, and the children are from India (Indian teacher).

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:20 AM
Info on Armenian-American intermarriage:



M.A. Jendian, A Study of Intermarriage Among Armenian-Americans in Central California', unpublished manuscript in the collection of the Armenian Research Center, University of Michigan-Dearborn. This work, based on archival research and interviews, makes use of social science theory to understand and predict Armenian marriage patterns. Jendian points out that 90 % of Armenian youths born in America, third and fourth generation Armenians in California, marry non-Armenians, while 80 of the children of current immigrants marry non-Armenians in Central California. The statistics from other places in America would undoubtedly be similar. The first study of this type, 1983, was done by Aharon G. Aharonian among the Armenian Churches of New England. He shows that the intermarriage rate at that time was 50%. Most certainly by now, with a new generation born in America, the rate is well over 80%. (Intermarriage and the Armenian-American Community: A Socio-Religious Study of Intermarriage and the Armenian Apostolic Church in America, Shrewsbury, MA, self published, 1983.) The latest work on Armenians in the New York-New Jersey region, by Army Bakalian, Armenian Americans (see Bibliography, p. 341), shows that the intermarriage rate among third generation Armenians is around 90%.

http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/papazian/america.html

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:34 AM
Info on Armenian-American intermarriage:

Amongst what other group are these intermarriages, and what parts of california do they include? Southern Californian Armenians are mostly Soviet Armenians, and they do indeed mix a lot. If an an Armenian did indeed marry a non Armenian, their children would be very non Armenian American, and they would not belong to Armenian organizations, as they would also be ousted and rideculed(I belong to and am a counselor at both AYF, and Nubar during summers). That is a very invalid source...I know for sure that nothing less tha 95% of Armenians do not stay within their own race. The Armenians during the 1950's were Armenians from Armenia (depee soviets) escaping the communist regime. Almost all depees have become Americans. I know several who say their grandfather was Armenian, yet claim not to be Armenian themselves. If those numbers were true about Armenian Americans, most of whome are new comers and whose children are 1st generation, they would be absent as an ethnic group in America.

"shows that the intermarriage rate among third generation Armenians is around 90%." this undoubtedly means Depee Armenians...this source does not Apply to Diaspora Armenians, or 1st generation Armenians. The Armenians of the Diaspora were not allowed into America, many of them settled in Syria, Lebanon, France, Kuwait, Greece, Bulgaria, among others. 2 generations later however, Armenians began comming to the united states. Again, being in an Armenian community, I'd say those numbers are absurd, I have seen very few 1st generation Armenians intermarrying.


"Above all, Mr. Setrakian gave a step-by-step explanation of the evolution, and concluded his remarks with a few key questions, upon which all those in attendance were asked to reflect: What role is the AGBU called upon to fulfill within the context of the 21st century and the new realities facing Armenians everywhere? How do we best relate to the new demographics and a fourth generation of fully integrated Armenians in their own countries? How do we deal with intermarriage and the loss of the use of the Armenian language, yet still maintain a strong national spirit?"

The children must speak Armenian to join and participate in Nubar and AYF.
http://www.agbu.org/pressoffice/display.asp?P_ID=142

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 08:03 AM
Over successive generations, Greek American attitudes toward intermarriage have changed. According to Greek Orthodox Church statistics, mixed couples represented three out of ten marriages performed in the Church during the 1960's and six out of ten in the 1980's. These numbers represent only marriages between Greek Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians, since these requirements must be met for a marriage to be performed in the church and by a Greek Orthodox priest. Thus, intermarriage has become the rule rather than the exception and no longer carries the stigma it once had.

http://chnm.gmu.edu/greekam/marriage.html

Honestly, these Greeks are no longer Greeks, nor do I think they participate in Greek activities. How does this include first generation Greeks and those who are participants in Greek activities? It does not. As is the situation with Armenians.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 09:31 AM
I have no idea why you bring Greeks into the discussion: I never use Greek Americans as examples of Greek racial types, unless I know for sure that they are of Greek ancestry.

My sources mention intermarriage rates among Armenians ranging from 50-90% for various groups and time periods. It is the heavily intermarried younger Armenian Americans that have children suitable to participate in summer-camp type of activities. Thus, Armenian Americans should not be used as examples of Armenian racial types, unless their ancestry can be ascertained.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 09:56 AM
C.S. Coon, TRoE, p. 627:

"The skin color of the Armenians has been designated as pinkish-white, brunet, swarthy, and light brown. The two middle categories share almost equally over 85 oer cent of the total. Pink skin, which includes 8 per cent, is far commonest at Van, light brown at Kaisarie. The east-west division holds in skin color as in other features. The hair color is mostly dark brown; 58 per cent belongs to this category while black and medium brown account for 18 per cent each. The remaining 6 per cent is almost entirely reddish brown."

"To match the ratio of pure brunet hair, one finds 73 per cent of brown eye color; this is divided almost evenly between dark brown, light brown, and mixed-brown classes, the latter implying an iris form in which more than one brown shade is present... Dark brown eyes are most numerous in the west, where they form 36 per cent of the whole, and rare in the Lake Van region, where they form 13 per cent. Mixed and light eyes, mostly green-brown, but including 2 per cent of pure blue, total 34 per cent in Van, and but 11 per cent in Kaisarie."

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 10:59 AM
C.S. Coon, TRoE, p. 627:

"The skin color of the Armenians has been designated as pinkish-white, brunet, swarthy, and light brown. The two middle categories share almost equally over 85 oer cent of the total. Pink skin, which includes 8 per cent, is far commonest at Van, light brown at Kaisarie. The east-west division holds in skin color as in other features. The hair color is mostly dark brown; 58 per cent belongs to this category while black and medium brown account for 18 per cent each. The remaining 6 per cent is almost entirely reddish brown."

"To match the ratio of pure brunet hair, one finds 73 per cent of brown eye color; this is divided almost evenly between dark brown, light brown, and mixed-brown classes, the latter implying an iris form in which more than one brown shade is present... Dark brown eyes are most numerous in the west, where they form 36 per cent of the whole, and rare in the Lake Van region, where they form 13 per cent. Mixed and light eyes, mostly green-brown, but including 2 per cent of pure blue, total 34 per cent in Van, and but 11 per cent in Kaisarie."


I brought Greeks into the discussion to show you that, since your a Greek and know Greeks, a half-Greek is not much of a Greek, but more an American interested in American activities. You DO know that Coon's theories hold no validity in the modern world of Anthropology? His study of the "Armenians" wasnt a study at all, more of an overall evaluation, he had one Western Armenian and on Bolisi Armenian, the other two were Eastern. What about the pictures I posted of Armenian youths during and after the diaspora? There are several blondes and some platinums. Either way, like I said before, I am a counselor at AYF and Nubar, the child must fluently speak Armenian in order to participate. We have come across mixed Armenians but never with Americans, never when it was a first generation child. When there was mixtures, there was with Lebanese, Greeks, French, Bulgarian, and one Polish.

All in all, you ARE implying these youths are not Armenians, that because some have blonde hair you assume theyre not Armenian. I repeat my question, does the fact my family, my grandfather and relatives as well as me, have blondism, make us non or half Armenians?

Glenlivet
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 12:12 PM
The children in the third (haykaz_celeb) picture from left seem to have dyed hair.

Sure, Armenians are not "swarthy Arab-looking people", yet a few Armenians are as dark as most Arabs, with black hair and arched eyebrows. You also know that Arabs form a cultural and linguistic group, and some are even Christian and not Muslim. Some Arabs have fair skin, blond hair and light eyes, not always in a combination, yet it is not uncommon in especially Northern Syria and Lebanon.

People from the Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh in native Armenian) region tend to be light.

Many Russians settled in Caucasus. How do you know that some are not of Russian extraction?



Well if pictures of me, my family, people I know, and organizations I belong to, I don't know what else I can do besides posting those pictures from the diaspora, which arnt as clear as in the magazine, that show fairly large amounts of blonde children. Either way the focus was not blondism, but Armenian identity. Frequently Armenians are confused for swarthy Arab-looking people, which they are most certainly not. These are the rest of the camp photos, the large pohto is AYF, and the children are from India (Indian teacher).

Marduk
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:21 PM
The children in the third (haykaz_celeb) picture from left seem to have dyed hair.

Sure, Armenians are not "swarthy Arab-looking people", yet a few Armenians are as dark as most Arabs, with black hair and arched eyebrows. You also know that Arabs form a cultural and linguistic group, and some are even Christian and not Muslim. Some Arabs have fair skin, blond hair and light eyes, not always in a combination, yet it is not uncommon in especially Northern Syria and Lebanon.

People from the Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh in native Armenian) region tend to be light.

Many Russians settled in Caucasus. How do you know that some are not of Russian extraction?

Armenians are an Indo-European people and blondism has always existed in Armenia.

Glenlivet
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:23 PM
Yes, and blondism in Armenia does not need to be, and is often not of Nordid extraction.

Uralic and Finnic people have inasmuch, if not more blondism than any Northern European people.

The blondest people are probably Estonians and Western Finns. The people of Frisia are also very blond, but more of the golden or red-blondism which may look darker, as it is not pale, but of a fuller colour.



Armenians are an Indo-European people and blondism has always existed in Armenia.

Marduk
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:24 PM
In France, there are a lot of people with Armenian descent, but most of aren't full-blooded Armenian (generally mixed with native French). Nevertheless, I happened to encounter some full-descented ones with blond hair and blue eyes, although most tend to have black or brown hair.

Glenlivet
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:41 PM
I know, and one could mistake them for native Frenchmen, as the French are distinguished for having prominent, acquiline noses, which tend to run in almost all the types in France.

Some Frenchmen approach Near Eastern forms of facial narrowness, gracility and nasal prominency. Even the skin range is that dull, pale complexion which can become sallow. Some of those men have light eyes, often combined with blackish hair.

Read below from the The Races of Europe by Carleton Coon, Chapter XII, Section 2) France:

"Measurements of the head and face, and indices other than the cephalic, are extremely scanty.12 Fortunately, however, they refer for the most part to the more brachycephalic element in the French population, which is of especial interest here. In the Alpine region par excellence, where the cephalic indices run to means of 85 and over, the head length means average about 184 mm., and the head breadth about 158 mm. The vault height mean is about 126 mm. These heads, with a cephalic module of 156 mm. (HL + HB + Aur. Ht. ¸ 3) are of moderate size for white people; they are much smaller than the heads of the Borreby brachycephals in Scandinavia and northern Germany, and a little smaller than one finds among brachycephals of equal index position in southern Germany. They are, however, comparable in size to those of Dinarics in the Balkans, and of Armenoids and Tajiks in Asia. Heads among all non-Borreby brachycephals, from France to Turkestan, are approximately equivalent in basic vault dimensions, whatever the differences in contours."



In France, there are a lot of people with Armenian descent, but most of aren't full-blooded Armenian (generally mixed with native French). Nevertheless, I happened to encounter some full-descented ones with blond hair and blue eyes, although most tend to have black or brown hair.

Marduk
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 08:02 PM
I know, and one could mistake them for native Frenchmen, as the French are distinguished for having prominent, acquiline noses, which tend to run in almost all the types in France.

Some Frenchmen approach Near Eastern forms of facial narrowness, gracility and nasal prominency. Even the skin range is that dull, pale complexion which can become sallow. Some of those men have light eyes, often combined with blackish hair.

Read below from the The Races of Europe by Carleton Coon, Chapter XII, Section 2) France:

"Measurements of the head and face, and indices other than the cephalic, are extremely scanty.12 Fortunately, however, they refer for the most part to the more brachycephalic element in the French population, which is of especial interest here. In the Alpine region par excellence, where the cephalic indices run to means of 85 and over, the head length means average about 184 mm., and the head breadth about 158 mm. The vault height mean is about 126 mm. These heads, with a cephalic module of 156 mm. (HL + HB + Aur. Ht. ¸ 3) are of moderate size for white people; they are much smaller than the heads of the Borreby brachycephals in Scandinavia and northern Germany, and a little smaller than one finds among brachycephals of equal index position in southern Germany. They are, however, comparable in size to those of Dinarics in the Balkans, and of Armenoids and Tajiks in Asia. Heads among all non-Borreby brachycephals, from France to Turkestan, are approximately equivalent in basic vault dimensions, whatever the differences in contours."

France has always been a sub-racially mixed country, because it has experienced many invasions of various Europeid people (Celts, Roman, Germans), several immigration waves from countries such as Spain, Italy, Portugal and Polland, and a lot of inside moves have occured (people from Lille in the north settle in Toulouse in the south for professional reasons).

Acquiline noses may be due to Roman invasions or Greek influence, but I am not sure.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 09:40 PM
The children in the third (haykaz_celeb) picture from left seem to have dyed hair.

Sure, Armenians are not "swarthy Arab-looking people", yet a few Armenians are as dark as most Arabs, with black hair and arched eyebrows. You also know that Arabs form a cultural and linguistic group, and some are even Christian and not Muslim. Some Arabs have fair skin, blond hair and light eyes, not always in a combination, yet it is not uncommon in especially Northern Syria and Lebanon.

People from the Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh in native Armenian) region tend to be light.

Many Russians settled in Caucasus. How do you know that some are not of Russian extraction?


Because the children are Nubar and AYF are of Western Armenian decent (from Turkey, Syria and other diaspora regions). Weve only had one Eastern Armenian, from Armenia, and he looked fairly medium. Yes I agree that Syrians and Lebanese have light people amongst them, in fact many Syrian and Lebanese look very Armenian, the majority I would say do. Syria and Lebanon was once part of the Armenian empire, and either way theyve always been indo-European lands, although maybe not linguistically. You also have to remember many Armenians assimilated into the Christian Syrian and Lebanese, as it could have been the other way around, like the Assyrians who often times claimed to be Armenian.

I posted pictures of youth to show that there was no highlights, eye contacts, etc to not be accused of posting fake pictures. Many pictures posted of models on this physical antrhopology section have been like that.

Glenlivet
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 09:50 PM
I did not think of Syrians of Armenian descent, rather that Arabs always had a blonder element. I do know that there is Armenian minority in Lebanon and Syria. I enountered an Armenian girl from Lebanon.

Well, how wrong does it go when the childrens too have dyed hair. The camp picture was better though. Why would anyone accuse you of that. You do not want to Nordicise Armenians, or do you?

Yes, it is tricky with models, so it is many times better to post politicians or more plain athletes.



Because the children are Nubar and AYF are of Western Armenian decent (from Turkey, Syria and other diaspora regions). Weve only had one Eastern Armenian, from Armenia, and he looked fairly medium. Yes I agree that Syrians and Lebanese have light people amongst them, in fact many Syrian and Lebanese look very Armenian, the majority I would say do. Syria and Lebanon was once part of the Armenian empire, and either way theyve always been indo-European lands, although maybe not linguistically. You also have to remember many Armenians assimilated into the Christian Syrian and Lebanese, as it could have been the other way around, like the Assyrians who often times claimed to be Armenian.

I posted pictures of youth to show that there was no highlights, eye contacts, etc to not be accused of posting fake pictures. Many pictures posted of models on this physical antrhopology section have been like that.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 10:02 PM
I did not think of Syrians of Armenian descent, rather that Arabs always had a blonder element. I do know that there is Armenian minority in Lebanon and Syria. I enountered an Armenian girl from Lebanon.

Well, how wrong does it go when the childrens too have dyed hair. The camp picture was better though. Why would anyone accuse you of that. You do not want to Nordicise Armenians, or do you?

Yes, it is tricky with models, so it is many times better to post politicians or more plain athletes.

I do not want to nordicise Armenians, no. Simply to show that Armenians are not the swarthy Arabids people think they are (not doubting there are lots of those amongst us who are remnants of islamic invaders). However, a nordicist who does not take kindly to Armenians might have made the accusation that I was hand picking pictures, instead of scanning them from a magazine of the camp I belong to.

The Arabs and Persians, on several accounts, have wrote of Armenian taxation in form of slavery of women, the Arabs have been known for buying and enslaving women to sheikhs. At one period in time the Persian shah claimed 10,000 Armenian wives and took them to his capitol in Iran(I think Tehran)along with skilled artisans, architects and mathematicians. As did the Sheikh of Baghdad, Damascus ETC. This is why many Arabs and Iranians look Armenian.

The children at camp nubar, I do not think would have the time to maintain highlights and other forms of fake cosmetics. Camp lasts about 3 weeks, and although I doubt a 12 year old would have used highlights, if it was the case, then it would be very noticable in the roots during the last week of photography. Yes I noticed those women had colored hair (the left is Tami Sahagian) who ive seen had dark red hair, perhaps she put highlights?

I also posted those pictures of Armenian youths in Syria, there are some very blonde children there, I doubt they were of Artsakh or Russian herritage, seeing as how many of these children are Giligian, and Western Armenian.

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 10:10 PM
BTW perhaps you dont know of the difference between the Western and Eastern Armenians. They are the two major types of Armenian, both speak two different dialects, Eastern is influenced by Russian and Persian, and Western is close to Krapar (ancient Armenian). The Western Armenians lived in the lands now occupied by Kurdish settlers, and regions of Southern (Giligian Armenians, who have their own language) Turkey and Black Sea Turkey, and Galacian Armenians, who also have their own language. However They are all closer to each other than to the Eastern Armenians (Armenians from Armenia, Artsakh, Naxichevan,refugees in Iran, Ararat and Van: which was a mix between both Armenians).

The Western Armenians also look very different from the Eastern Armenians, who look more Caucasian and sometimes Russian looking or what have you. The Armenians of Turkey remained isolated, those who survived the rapings, janissary recruiting and killings, fled to the mountains and did scouting called HOGHAGAN (for the lands). The greatest form of Hoghagan was in Musa Dagh, when thoulsands of Armenians deffended their lands in Giligia with hunting riffles against 10,000 Turks with mousers, and left them fleeing.

The Assyrian, Christian Iranian populations assimilated into Armenians, many had reasons for wanting to be Armenia as it was the only nearby christian country. Then there were also Assyrian cases in Western Armenia, Christian Syrian Arabs, and many Lebanese. I consider the Assyrians somewhat like the Armenians, many think they are semetic, but only by language. These intermarriages and name changes occured both during the chart (WWII) and during soviet, and free Armenia, as well as Armenian refugees to Lebanon.

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 10:24 PM
I have a tough time finding ANY Serbs and especially Montenegrins on the net.
For example, Serbian dating services are mostly used by Bosnians and Croats. Our sportsmen don't have websites, our politicians don't look much like the majority of people ( our politicians are usually very ugly short fat guys or they're not from Serbia proper ( Most are from Bosnia and Herzegovina ))...

Razmig
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 11:07 PM
I have a tough time finding ANY Serbs and especially Montenegrins on the net.
For example, Serbian dating services are mostly used by Bosnians and Croats. Our sportsmen don't have websites, our politicians don't look much like the majority of people ( our politicians are usually very ugly short fat guys or they're not from Serbia proper ( Most are from Bosnia and Herzegovina ))...

Don't hate on them cuz they pimp dawg. Are you refering to Milosevic by that generalization? Either way, it doesnt matter what him or his fellow leaders looked like, he was a damned Hero. It because Serbia is/was a war torn country, and not many people know about Serbia. Most of the internet is controlled by Americans and Western Europeans, along with Japanese, anything in between is ousted haha. I find the same problem with Armenians, and when there are available pictures, they are only from Armenia (and not "Armenia Proper") heh, which is Turkey now. =( So I scanned some myself! "Scanners are a good thing." American, Martha Stewart

Gladstone
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 11:34 PM
Very informative posts Razmig. You might find Rusalka of some interest. She visits the site every few weeks or so and has family on one side from the Caucuses (Circassian I think), and has lived in Turkey in the past. She is a person of very high quality as everyone at this site can attest to.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 02:33 AM
I brought Greeks into the discussion to show you that, since your a Greek and know Greeks, a half-Greek is not much of a Greek, but more an American interested in American activities.


Incorrect. Half-Greek Americans are usually indistinguishable from full-Greek Americans if they are raised in close contact with the Greek American community. And many of them participate in Greek American activities, which is why most Greek Orthodox churches use English in their services, to accommodate worshippers of non-Greek background; the same is true for Armenian churches as well.



You DO know that Coon's theories hold no validity in the modern world of Anthropology? His study of the "Armenians" wasnt a study at all, more of an overall evaluation, he had one Western Armenian and on Bolisi Armenian, the other two were Eastern.


You are referring to his plates, I am referring to the chapter of TRoE on Armenians where the exact range of pigmentation of Armenians is given. That is hard anthropometric data, it's not "Coon's theories".



What about the pictures I posted of Armenian youths during and after the diaspora? There are several blondes and some platinums.


Caucasoid children are often lighter-haired than adults. I don't doubt that there are blond Armenian children, however I seriously doubt that there are more than an insignificant percentage of blond Armenian adults.


All in all, you ARE implying these youths are not Armenians, that because some have blonde hair you assume theyre not Armenian. I repeat my question, does the fact my family, my grandfather and relatives as well as me, have blondism, make us non or half Armenians?

I'm not "implying" anything. I am simply telling you that pictures of Armenian Americans are not convincing due to the fact that Armenians intermarry like other Americans.

I don't know what you mean by "blondism". Some degree of "blondism" is present in many Caucasoids, including Armenians. Armenian adults however are rarely blond in the true sense. That doesn't make you "half Armenian" it makes you a rare Armenian.

Razmig
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 08:11 AM
Dienekes, the Armenian Apostolic church, by law of the Giligian and Echmiadzin Catholicos, is not allowed to do prayr or sermons etc in any language other than Krapar/Grabar (ancient Armenian).

How are half Greeks seperated from full Greeks?

As for the "study" of the Armenians, the Eastern are the majority, its 2/3, I don't doubt most Armenians are dark, brown to black haired. However no Armenian of Giligian or Galacian decent that I've seen has ever had anything darker than red or dark blonde.

True blondism does disappear as a person gets older, but then why do Arab and Persian children usually have black hair as children? Arnt they too Caucasoid? I dont know what type of Armenians that live around you, but the majority of Armenians I know are light or blonde. Its hard to know what Im talking about, because the Armenians come in many types. Most, yes, are dark. So in that sence, I dont consider myself "rare" being on the inside, but you as an outsider I can understand seeing me rare.

BTW Are you fully Greek? Where are your parents from?

Razmig
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 08:23 AM
Very informative posts Razmig. You might find Rusalka of some interest. She visits the site every few weeks or so and has family on one side from the Caucuses (Circassian I think), and has lived in Turkey in the past. She is a person of very high quality as everyone at this site can attest to.

I have not seen her posts, is she muslim or christian? Sometimes there is ethnic friction between the peoples of the Caucus, so it's better to know where in the Caucus she is from before approaching her, being an Armenian. hehe

Gladstone
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 08:43 AM
I have not seen her posts, is she muslim or christian? Sometimes there is ethnic friction between the peoples of the Caucus, so it's better to know where in the Caucus she is from before approaching her, being an Armenian. hehe

I think her family background was Christian, but as to herself is (at least at this time) somewhat non-commital to any particular belief in a higher power; she adressed that once in one of her post. And does not particularly care a great deal for the Ottoman Empire nor it's legacy; the other side of her family she has stated came from Yugoslavia if I recall. She is certainly worth a friendly hi to as she a well liked member of the site with good reason.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 08:48 AM
I dont know what type of Armenians that live around you, but the majority of Armenians I know are light or blonde.


That statement tells me all I need to know about your views. Anyone who thinks that the majority of Armenians are "light or blonde" is in serious denial.

Razmig
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 09:29 AM
That statement tells me all I need to know about your views. Anyone who thinks that the majority of Armenians are "light or blonde" is in serious denial.

Dienekes your obviously not understanding me. There are SEVERAL types of ARMENIANS, I am half western and half Galacian, most of whome are blonde. I have a book called O SEYRA GALAC, compilations of Armenian Galacians and I will post there pictures as soon as I have time. My point was never to make Armenians "blondes", as I did not hand pick the photos to begin with. But you were claiming that these children were mixed, and as a member of the camp, I have told you, they are not (they are Western Armenians), a minority of Armenians whome whole is represented by the East. Do you not pay attention to what points I try to convey? Armenians as a whole are DARK, like meds, no doubt about it, theres nothing about that that makes me unhappy.

Most Armenians are dark like I said. However, Armenian types vary, as there are different types of Armenians. Like Greeks, Thracians, Athenians, Ionnians ETC. There is no 1 type of Armenian, and Galacians, who are redheaded or "garmiramas" do not usually mix with western or eastern Armenians. I live in a town made up of Galacian, some also from Mersin, many of whome assimilated as Yugoslavians and Bulgarians during the first Chart as refugees. The Armenians of Glendale, California, or Moscow, Russia will look the darkest, as most are from Iran and Yerevan Armenia.

My point here was to show people there exists Armenians outside of the class of Vaneci, Bolisi, Caucus Armenians...Western and Gilgian/Galacian Armenians are considered "rare" because they are an almost extinct people. The Eastern Armenians have their land, so when a Galacian tells a "foreign" person hes Armenian, that person, if he even knows where Armenia is, will automatically categorize him with those people, whome he racially nor culturally the same.

Razmig
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 09:49 AM
I think her family background was Christian, but as to herself is (at least at this time) somewhat non-commital to any particular belief in a higher power; she adressed that once in one of her post. And does not particularly care a great deal for the Ottoman Empire nor it's legacy; the other side of her family she has stated came from Yugoslavia if I recall. She is certainly worth a friendly hi to as she a well liked member of the site with good reason.

I've PMed her hoping that she will not having anything against Armenians! Hopefully, I can discuss with her the issues of Caucus, Turkey and Balkans. Thank you Gladstone!

BTW From where do your ancestors hale?

Dienekes_Pontikos
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 09:59 AM
Dienekes your obviously not understanding me. There are SEVERAL types of ARMENIANS, I am half western and half Galacian, most of whome are blonde.

I understand you perfectly. I know full well that an ethnic group can have regional variation. For example, true blond hair (Fischer 26.9-12) is at an average of 1.2% in Crete but reaches up to 11.5% in some regional groups.

It's possible for a regional group to be more depigmented than the total average, however your statement that most Armenians of a particular group are "blonde" is an extraordinary statement which is hard to believe. For example, with the exception of some limited zones in the northern border, most North Italian provinces don't exceed 20% of blond hair. You are in essence telling me that there exists an Armenian group that has greater hair depigmentation than North Italians.

Razmig
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 10:08 AM
I understand you perfectly. I know full well that an ethnic group can have regional variation. For example, true blond hair (Fischer 26.9-12) is at an average of 1.2% in Crete but reaches up to 11.5% in some regional groups.

It's possible for a regional group to be more depigmented than the total average, however your statement that most Armenians of a particular group are "blonde" is an extraordinary statement which is hard to believe. For example, with the exception of some limited zones in the northern border, most North Italian provinces don't exceed 20% of blond hair. You are in essence telling me that there exists an Armenian group that has greater hair depigmentation than North Italians.

We must also remember that the Armenians are in no way as populous as Italy, or Northern Italy. The Armenians as a whole, worldwide, lets say reach a population of about 7 million, and thats over-tallying the actual. About 3.4 million in Armenia (of mixed backrounds), 1.6 in Iran and Russia. and the rest are Western, Galacian, and Giligian Armenians. So that leaves about 2 million, which the majority are Western (Turkish Capadocian/Pontusian Armenians). So less than half a million would be Galacian.

Those whome lived in isolated parts of Turkey were forced to stay within their own people, and did not mix amongst other Armenians as they were not Orthodox, but Gragapasht (paganistic) following ancient Armenian cultures. Many Western Armenians stayed isolated in regions of Turkey as well, avoiding Turkish attrocities. So therefor, I doubt that as a population of 2 million the Western Armenians can in no way be compared to Italy or even a portion of Italy as there are not that many Armenians in existance to begin with. And yes, I would say that Galacian Armenians are much more blonde than the average north Italian, as my father is a travel agent as have visited. Many north Italians have German last names. Yet the Armenians of Turkey, an Islamic state, and those of Galacian origin, were forced to stay within their own people, and hence why they are not as dark as most Armenians.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 12:12 AM
The difference in population size between Armenians and Italians has no bearing whatsoever on their relative degree of depigmentation.

You're essentially claiming that the great body of the Armenian people is of mixed origin, while a minority in the West has retained light pigmentation because of isolation. There's no point in discussing this claim until (a) you supply some evidence for the existence of a group of largely light-pigmented Armenian adults, (b) you show some evidence that these are of purer Armenian descent than the rest of the Armenians.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 12:27 AM
The only genetic study of Armenians that I've seen paints a different picture of the regional variation in admixture:



Hum Genet. 2001 Dec;109(6):659-74. Epub 2001 Oct 30.

"The haplotype distribution and pattern of genetic distances suggest a high degree of genetic isolation in the mountainous southern and eastern regions, while in the northern, central and western regions there has been greater admixture with populations from neighbouring Middle Eastern countries."

"In contrast to the Syunik, Karabakh and (to a lesser extent) Iranian regions, the Ararat, North and West regions are not significantly differentiated from each other and have higher affinities with samples collected in neighbouring countries (notwithstanding the less thorough collection protocols employed in the comparative data sets). This suggests a history of greater admixture both between these regions and with neighbouring countries. These regions are less mountainous and offer lower barriers to migration. Furthermore, unfavourable treatment at various times by foreign powers exerting political dominance over Armenia has led to periods of relocation of Armenian peoples and to greater mixing."

Razmig
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:02 AM
"Bordering" nations of Armenia in the middle east, historically, were not those of Arabia and what not, but rather Cappadocia, Cilicia, Pontus, Sophene, Odessa, all Armenian inhabited states, the Western Armenians intermingled with Giligians and what have you. Armenia was not always a united state. These studies are completely flawed. There is no way other then the several pictures of youths of today and the diaspora that I can prove to you what the Giligian and Western Armenians look like, there is not that much information about the Western Armenians on the internet to begin with, as they are not the majority of Armenians. As I said, when I get ahold of my Galacian book I will post pictures.

These studies are on ARMENIA, not ANCIENT ARMENIA, they cannot be used to speak of Western Armenians. The north does not apply to Pontus but to Kusais and Skeppo, near the Georgian/Caucasian border. Nothing that youve posted has been of any relevence to the Giligian or Western Armenians.

Do you honestly think that people outside of the Armenian herritage know about Giligians and Galacians? Most Armenians in Armenia dont even know. These studies dont approach Syria, South mediterannean and north central Turkey for Armenians, they dont do Ethnic hunting, they just go strait to Armenia. Again you still havnt braught up a point that applies to Western Armenians, Giligians, or Galacians.

Razmig
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:08 AM
The difference in population size between Armenians and Italians has no bearing whatsoever on their relative degree of depigmentation.

You're essentially claiming that the great body of the Armenian people is of mixed origin, while a minority in the West has retained light pigmentation because of isolation. There's no point in discussing this claim until (a) you supply some evidence for the existence of a group of largely light-pigmented Armenian adults, (b) you show some evidence that these are of purer Armenian descent than the rest of the Armenians.

Population is a HUGE factor in difference, as the more people there are, the more chances of intermarriages. The less there are, the less they intermarry. This doesnt make the Armenians "mixed", but diverse. All people are mixed, as race is a result of intermingling and inbreeding. However Armenia is a very mountainous region, its highest peeks are of coarse in the East, but its largest valleys and steepest hills are in the West(TURKEY, NOT ARMENIA). You have to remember Armenia is not like Greece, its inhabbitants dont all live in Greece, and Cyprus. (Armenia and Artsakhes).

Razmig
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:16 AM
Compare the Western Armenian Petros Hovhanisian
http://www.nci.am/pr/0606/eastwest1.jpg
to the eastern Armenian Hrach Hakobyan on his right:
http://www.nci.am/pr/0606/eastwest2.jpg

Not that Hrach is typical of Armenia, but definnetly not Western Armenian...or anything near it....

The only information I have found online about Giligians is this:
http://www.genocide-project.org/arpiar_missakian.html
and it only speaks of the Diaspora.
He strikes me more of an Armenian then these people from Armenia...

Dienekes_Pontikos
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:20 AM
Population is a HUGE factor in difference, as the more people there are, the more chances of intermarriages. The less there are, the less they intermarry. This doesnt make the Armenians "mixed", but diverse.

If a people has great numbers, then the chances that it will marry within its own are greater than that it will outmarry. When a people has small numbers then the chances that it will outmarry increase. For example if 80% people of group A live with 20% of group B, then the outmarriage rate can be at most 25%, i.e., if all of group B marries group A. Conversely, if 20% of group A live with group B, then the outmarriage rate for A can be up to 100%. Small minorities tend to outmarry more.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:29 AM
These studies are completely flawed.


Why do you think they are flawed? Because they disagree with your assessment of Armenians from Turkey being less mixed and with Armenians from Iran being Armenians of "gypsy" origin?




These studies are on ARMENIA, not ANCIENT ARMENIA, they cannot be used to speak of Western Armenians. The north does not apply to Pontus but to Kusais and Skeppo, near the Georgian/Caucasian border.

As you can see, the scientists did study Armenians from outside the borders of Armenia. According to the quote above, the most distinctive Armenians -who are less admixed with other populations- are from Syunik, Karabakh and Iran, not the ones from present-day Turkey.



"Samples were assigned to six regions according to paternal grandparental place of birth (Fig. 1): "Ararat", the valley region surrounding the capital, Yerevan, to the east of the Aras river; "North", northern Armenia plus three districts in southern Georgia (Bolnisi, Akhalkalaki and Akhaltsikhe) and one in northwestern Azerbaijan (around Gyanja); "Syunik", a mountainous region of southern Armenia; "Karabakh", a mountainous enclave within Azerbaijan; "Iranian", within present-day Iran, believed to be mainly descendants of Armenians removed to Isfahan (central Iran) from Julfa (see Fig. 1) by Shah Abbas I in 1604 AD; "West", the area of eastern Turkey historically part of Greater Armenia. All regions are or were historically areas with large ethnic Armenian populations."

Razmig
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 02:30 AM
If a people has great numbers, then the chances that it will marry within its own are greater than that it will outmarry. When a people has small numbers then the chances that it will outmarry increase. For example if 80% people of group A live with 20% of group B, then the outmarriage rate can be at most 25%, i.e., if all of group B marries group A. Conversely, if 20% of group A live with group B, then the outmarriage rate for A can be up to 100%. Small minorities tend to outmarry more.

The Armenians are too much at risk to intermarry as much as Italians. If that were the case, the almost less than a million western Armenians would be EXTINCT. EVERY SINGLE, I repeat, EVERY SINGLE Western Armenian I have known, from school, college, friends and family, has married another western Armenian.

Razmig
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 03:41 AM
Why do you think they are flawed? Because they disagree with your assessment of Armenians from Turkey being less mixed and with Armenians from Iran being Armenians of "gypsy" origin?



As you can see, the scientists did study Armenians from outside the borders of Armenia. According to the quote above, the most distinctive Armenians -who are less admixed with other populations- are from Syunik, Karabakh and Iran, not the ones from present-day Turkey.

I feel like a broken record. ALL of those, are EASTERN ARMENIANS...here is a map for you to know the cultural borders of eastern and Western Armenians..

bernard_sk
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 06:21 AM
from people I have met, Armenians look like lighter Iranians. I could be wrong though. That being said, they were really nice people ...

some one asked for pics of Armenia and Serbia/Monte teams

from uefa.com

http://www.euro2004.com/ImagesContent/Competition/Teams/TeamPhoto/600x400/57419.jpg http://www.euro2004.com/ImagesContent/Competition/Teams/TeamPhoto/600x400/147.jpg

Awar
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 03:59 PM
Thanks Bernard!

The Blond Beast
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 06:46 PM
I feel like a broken record. ALL of those, are EASTERN ARMENIANS...here is a map for you to know the cultural borders of eastern and Western Armenians..

Why are you continually trying to differentiate Eastern and Western Amrenians? Are you ashamed of the Eastern Armenians?

You said it yourself: an Armenian is an Armenian, irrespective of what he/she looks like (light/dark) or what his/her racial heritage is (Iranian/Gypsy).

Same as everywhere else, right?

Evolved
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 07:09 PM
I have not yet met an Armenian in person who was not a "hook-nosed swarthy" person. I think that 'stereotype' exists for a reason, it's the prevalent look. Do they all look that way? No.

хачик Стереотип (http://krisyatnik.narod.ru/r5.jpg)

xakep
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 09:51 AM
I have not yet met an Armenian in person who was not a "hook-nosed swarthy" person. I think that 'stereotype' exists for a reason, it's the prevalent look. Do they all look that way? No.

хачик Стереотип (http://krisyatnik.narod.ru/r5.jpg)

I pretty much agree with LG33, I have met only "hook-nosed swarthy" Armenians so far. Maybe I'm missing something, but all Armenians that come to Russia look that way. Razmig, don't take this as an offence, its just my personal expirience.

Razmig
Wednesday, December 31st, 2003, 07:27 PM
It matters what kind of Armenians you meet. Xakep Im assuming your from Russia, many eastern Armenians live in Russia as they do have a hooked nosed majority, but not all are "swarthy". Ladygoeth have you ever been to the Balkans, Turkey or Syria? That is where the majority of the western Armenians live.

ScotchTape
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 12:54 AM
I feel like a broken record. ALL of those, are EASTERN ARMENIANS...here is a map for you to know the cultural borders of eastern and Western Armenians..

I dont get your map. You map counts all of Armenia and anything east of that as Eastern Armenian and everything west of armenia(not counting it) as western armenia. So, are you saying that only say, Turkey has Western Armenians. That would mean that the present population of Armenia is all Eastern Armenian and thus, swarthy and hooknosed.

AnthropologyNotRacism
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 01:03 AM
I dont get your map. You map counts all of Armenia and anything east of that as Eastern Armenian and everything west of armenia(not counting it) as western armenia. So, are you saying that only say, Turkey has Western Armenians. That would mean that the present population of Armenia is all Eastern Armenian and thus, swarthy and hooknosed.
Here is an Armenian

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7085

dont listen to this Armenian, he is so ignorant its scary

he thinks Phonecians came from malta
he thinks semite means people of the book
he was ignorant about penelepe cruz saying "isnt cruz a hispanic sirname"
and thats just the begining

Razmig
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 06:18 AM
I dont get your map. You map counts all of Armenia and anything east of that as Eastern Armenian and everything west of armenia(not counting it) as western armenia. So, are you saying that only say, Turkey has Western Armenians. That would mean that the present population of Armenia is all Eastern Armenian and thus, swarthy and hooknosed.
Turkish Armenian = Western Armenian...the Armenians of the diaspora are the western Armenians...Caucasian Armenians dont have that much pure Armenoid, not saying they dont have big noses (they are heavily influenced by Irano-Afghan elements like much of the caucus, and there has plenty of settlements by asiatic groups there). All locals of Armenia (not counting immigrants after soviet freedom, which is very few), are Eastern Armenians (Arevels), like the Armenians of Iran (a portion of which was Urmia, an Armenian region. There are hooked nosed Armenians...hook noses are an Armenian signiture, but Armenians of Armenia resemble Jews/Khazars, mixed Armenoid, Turkic, Russian and god knows what else. As for being swarthy, most Western Armenians tend to have fairer skin, and a lot of times pink/freckled. Galac Armenians are not Armenoids.

Razmig
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 06:29 AM
Here is an Armenian

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7085

dont listen to this Armenian, he is so ignorant its scary

he thinks Phonecians came from malta
he thinks semite means people of the book
he was ignorant about penelepe cruz saying "isnt cruz a hispanic sirname"
and thats just the begining
Sure thats an Armenian, he can have a nose that will grow on forever but he will never be quite as ugly as the jews....please do tell me what 3 tribes made up the ethnic Phoenicians? and name all of the regions they derived (please enlighten me oh all-knowing chosen one, for I am the ignorant GOY)

ive already disproved your uninformed vocabluary usage of the word HISPANIC

AnthropologyNotRacism
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 02:52 PM
to kuote prodigal son "I agree with AnthropologyNotRacism. The "stereotypical Jewish" appearance is essnetially a less pronounced form of Armenoid. Originally, the majority of Ashkenazic Jews were Armenoid, but throughout the millenia they were subject to very strong selective pressures (of both sexual and social nature) which decreased the amount of Armenoid phenotypes among them with each passing generation. The effect is that only a minority of modern-day Asheknazim can be described as purely Armenoid. The average Armenian is infinitely closer to capturing the "stereotypical Jew" appearance than the average Ashkenazi. If Jews are ugly, Armenians are hideous."

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7085&stc=1&thumb=1

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7056

maybe so called Western Armenians are less Disgusting because of Turk blood,turks asian genes must have calmed your hideous hook nose sloping forehead wideface hyperbrachycephalic genes

AnthropologyNotRacism
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 02:54 PM
to kuote prodigal son "I agree with AnthropologyNotRacism. The "stereotypical Jewish" appearance is essnetially a less pronounced form of Armenoid. Originally, the majority of Ashkenazic Jews were Armenoid, but throughout the millenia they were subject to very strong selective pressures (of both sexual and social nature) which decreased the amount of Armenoid phenotypes among them with each passing generation. The effect is that only a minority of modern-day Asheknazim can be described as purely Armenoid. The average Armenian is infinitely closer to capturing the "stereotypical Jew" appearance than the average Ashkenazi. If Jews are ugly, Armenians are hideous."

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7085&stc=1&thumb=1

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7056

"("they are heavily influenced by Irano-Afghan elements like much of the caucus, and there has plenty of settlements by asiatic groups there" they Arent influenced by IranoAfghan THEY ARE IRANOAFGHAN, Armenoids are Brachycephalized Irano Afghans


maybe so called Western Armenians are less Disgusting because of Turk blood,turks asian genes must have calmed your hideous hook nose sloping forehead wideface hyperbrachycephalic genes

goidelicwarrior
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 04:19 PM
u sound like a NAZI.. evil rascist there ..... big nose or not.. as far as I know Armenians at least dident start the Gulf war..

xakep
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 05:57 PM
u sound like a NAZI.. evil rascist there ...

lol


.... big nose or not.. as far as I know Armenians at least dident start the Gulf war..

How is that ?

Razmig
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 10:40 PM
to kuote prodigal son "I agree with AnthropologyNotRacism. The "stereotypical Jewish" appearance is essnetially a less pronounced form of Armenoid. Originally, the majority of Ashkenazic Jews were Armenoid, but throughout the millenia they were subject to very strong selective pressures (of both sexual and social nature) which decreased the amount of Armenoid phenotypes among them with each passing generation. The effect is that only a minority of modern-day Asheknazim can be described as purely Armenoid. The average Armenian is infinitely closer to capturing the "stereotypical Jew" appearance than the average Ashkenazi. If Jews are ugly, Armenians are hideous."

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7085&stc=1&thumb=1

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7056

maybe so called Western Armenians are less Disgusting because of Turk blood,turks asian genes must have calmed your hideous hook nose sloping forehead wideface hyperbrachycephalic genes

Can someone ban this ass? Turk blood? Eastern Armenians are more relative to your melting pot of a people (who have turkic/khazar blood) than anywere near a pure Armenoid, most Western Armenians are PURE Armenoids, that means no ORIENTALID, like that man you posted, who I repeat for the 3rd time does not have an Armenoid bone structure, or flat ocupit, you ignorant Jude...is it my fault you have no race, that you must then release your anger on mine?



u sound like a NAZI.. evil rascist there ..... big nose or not.. as far as I know Armenians at least dident start the Gulf war..
No, but they definnetly aided America in slaughtering the Iraqi muslims, as well as received m16's in return for the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict. Jews are behind every evil globalization this world will ever know. He sounds like an uneducated stupid Jewish boy whos gotten his ass beat too many times.

AnthropologyNotRacism
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM
"Can someone ban this ass? Turk blood? Eastern Armenians are more relative to your melting pot of a people (who have turkic/khazar blood) "
how can i have Tukic Khazar blood when im a WESTERN european Sephardic jew idiot

Razmig
Wednesday, January 21st, 2004, 11:07 PM
how can i have Tukic Khazar blood when im a WESTERN european Sephardic jew idiot
do a dna test, and you will see you have it in you. every JEW has some of the original blood in him, either way, every Jew is a mutt...european jews = khazar jews = turkics... ashkenaz and sephardic dont mean crap, those are only religious sects...just like shiite and suuni (your both the same mixed crap).

The Blond Beast
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 12:56 AM
... most Western Armenians are PURE Armenoids, that means no ORIENTALID...

Do you mean pure Armenian as in a stabilized blend?

Armenia is only the world's nexus of race. :eyes

And don't be so harsh to your Sephardic brother (AnthropologyNotRacism) -- you're of the same stock. ;)

ScotchTape
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 03:06 AM
As for being swarthy, most Western Armenians tend to have fairer skin, and a lot of times pink/freckled. Galac Armenians are not Armenoids.

SO, most citizens of Armenia are swarthy and hooknosed and the ones living outside the country in Turkey and the Balkans have fairer skins. That could also be because the Western Armenians mixed with the local populations in the Balkans which resulted in fairer skins. That sounds much more reasonable.

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 04:32 AM
SO, most citizens of Armenia are swarthy and hooknosed and the ones living outside the country in Turkey and the Balkans have fairer skins. That could also be because the Western Armenians mixed with the local populations in the Balkans which resulted in fairer skins. That sounds much more reasonable.


Do you mean pure Armenian as in a stabilized blend?

Armenia is only the world's nexus of race. :eyes

And don't be so harsh to your Sephardic brother (AnthropologyNotRacism) -- you're of the same stock. ;)
Perhaps to a non-race like you, stock can mean anything...Armenoid is a pure race and Armenians are the only to carry such pure traits, and not the Jews. Thats more than a Jew or a Russian can say.


Armenians have just recently immigrated to the Balkans, Balkan Armenians are the same as Turkish Armenians, there are Galac Armenians in Balkans too. Most balkan/bulgarian Armenians have fled the recent outbrakes of wars and either moved to America, or France. Here, why dont you read and educate yourself about the Jews. For someone with overwhelming amounts of Jewish inhabitors, not to consider intermingling amongst Jews and Slavs, you shouldnt be the one to talk. There are more eye folds found in Eastern Europe and Russia than the whole of Turkey (exactly 10,000 Turkics, most of whome were Irano Afghan or Turanid settled Turkey), thats less that the seemingly endless amounts of Mongol hordes that bombarded your beloved Moskva. Again, every Jew I've seen, be it online, in Coon's descriptions, or in person, looks more like the typical Ruskij, and quite atypical for an Armenoid or Dinaric. Just because someone has a big nose and dark hair doesnt make them similar, why is it then the Jews/Russians are clustered together here in America, and not the Jews/Armenians? Because a)most Jews are eastern Europea derrivitives b)ashkenazis are Caucus Jews who absorbed Armenoids, yet were converted Judaics of Turkic subrace, originated in Central Asia, and c)The Sephardic Jews are Spanish Jews (spanish have armenoid settlements like england and northwest italy, sicily) who are overwhelmingly med/orientalids

http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1914/jewsrace/

http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/001070.html

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/notrace.html

"It is permissible to hold that the sturdy Anatolian stock from Asia Minor contributed to the formation of the ... 'Jewish race.'

Pomor
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 05:15 AM
The only way to tell an Armenian apart from a Jew is Armenians' huge jaws due to an acromegaly I guess. I've seen hundreds of Armenians, they were all swarthy hook-nosed Semitic-looking people. That is why I do not understand you hatred of Jews - your own kin. How can you be proud of the fact that Armenians were participating in the genocide of Jews if Jews are your closest cousins, they even are closer to Armenians than to their cousins Arabs.

Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Blond Beast
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 05:36 AM
... Armenoid is a pure race...

Someone please send this mad donkey to butcher... :D



... and Armenians are the only to carry such pure traits...

Like familial Mediterranean fever?

Henrik
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 06:00 AM
razmig when you posted your pic most people classified you as jewish, i classified you as half arab etc

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 10:36 AM
The only way to tell an Armenian apart from a Jew is Armenians' huge jaws due to an acromegaly I guess. I've seen hundreds of Armenians, they were all swarthy hook-nosed Semitic-looking people. That is why I do not understand you hatred of Jews - your own kin. How can you be proud of the fact that Armenians were participating in the genocide of Jews if Jews are your closest cousins, they even are closer to Armenians than to their cousins Arabs.

Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Likewise that I cant tell a Kazak and a Russian apart (who can), but thats a different topic.
Sources that Jews are closer to Armenians than other eastern europeans? (that site only compares to other middle east groups) and specifically says that those jews compared to armenians and turks were from european lands. your link does not work. The original Hebrews are Orientalid and Med (this is not my kin), and they were responsible for the slaughtering of Smyrnian Armenians and Greeks, as well as probably other financial replacement of Armenians in modern day Turkey...my grandfather was not the kin of ariel sharon

The arabs are not related to the Armenians. Where have you studied? If anywhere? What sources do you have? Please, provide me with legitamite sources, for once...


razmig when you posted your pic most people classified you as jewish, i classified you as half arab etc
who classified me as jewish? did jewish turn from religion to racial type without my knowledge? werent you the one who called a south east european an middle easterner? etc etc? the man in your avatar can just as much pass for a jew as much as i can

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7087


"Ashkenazim Jews are a hybrid race by long interbreeding, their ethnicities being Armenid/Arab, also referred to by some as Armenid/Hittite/Assyrian/Arab, aka Armenid/Orientalid. According to Oxford University's Dr. John R. Baker, "the evidence from blood-groups bears on the theory that the Ashkenazim have both Armenids and Orientalids ["Orientalids" is Dr. Baker's word for Arabs] for ancestors." -- from Baker's book Race, [see below], page 242, hardcover"

"The other type of Jew is the Sephardim, also known as "Mediterranean," or "Spanish," or "Portuguese," or "North African" Jews. These Jews lived mostly near the Mediterranean Sea. Sephardim Jews also lived in Iraq (Babylon), Syria, Greece, Turkey, and in the Americas, especially South America. Furthermore, Sephardic Jews lived in Palestine long before the European Zionist movement. Sephardim are more closely related to Arabs, while Ashkenazim are more related to Orientalid/Armenid"

"Luschan holds that the hook-nose is by no means characteristic of the Semites, and contends that the number of arched noses that are found among the Jews is due to ancient mixture with the Hittites in Asia Minor."

"The most important problem suggested by a study of craniometrical results concerning Jews is the relation of the type head of the modern Jews to that of the ancient Hebrews and to the modern Semitic skulls. The pure Semitic skull is dolichocephalic [long-headed], as may be seen from a study of the heads of modern Arabs, Abyssinians, Syrians .... The only way the type of the head may change is by intermixture with other races. If the ancient Hebrews were of the same stock as the modern non-Jewish Semites, and if the modern Jews are their descendants, then a pure dolichocephalic type of head would be expected among the Jews"


Do you honestly mean to tell me the Jews (who altogether have 16% thin, hooked noses, and around 56% straight med, other misc), those in Mexico, China, Russia, Germany, Israel are all my kin? Wake up, your seemingly becoming more uneducated as you proceed. Please, tell me how old you two are, so I can realize if I'm wasting with American kid punks or if I'm dealing with misinformed adults.

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 10:42 AM
Like familial Mediterranean fever?

"Familial Mediterranean fever (FMF) occurs most commonly in people of non-Ashkenazi Jewish, Armenian, Arab, and Turkish background."
hmm...non ashkenazi...OK that rules out anything you said about them being similar to Armenians right?

FMF is caused by the water irrigation system that runs through Iraq, Turkey, and Turkish Armenia (rivers also run through georgia and armenia). It is not inherrited the way you think (no Armenians born in the new world or europe have inheritted it). However, there have been cases that non Armenians (american whites) who have taken trips to Armenia or Turkey have inherited it (it is basically an internal syst, and I have seen those who have it).
Please if you morons are gonna make a claim, BACK IT UP...Im really tired of posting sites, informing on matters you dont have a clue on, and attatching countless amount of images.

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 11:07 AM
razmig when you posted your pic most people classified you as jewish, i classified you as half arab etc if I understand rightly most people here favor the jew.. ?? if thats the case.. you might close this whole site.. I noticed that many Americans tend to be very forgiving against jews... is this right to ? are u not seing whats is happening to the world????? so stop picking on the Armenian ...did they cause the twin towers disaster ?or that American soliders now die every day? did they as politicians alter Americas immigration policy? think for gods sake !!!!

Pomor
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 02:34 PM
Likewise that I cant tell a Kazak and a Russian apart (who can), but thats a different topic.

Kazak? You mean Cossack? Sure, they are pure Russians.



Sources that Jews are closer to Armenians than other eastern europeans?


Since when Armenians are "other Eastern Europeans"? They always have been semitic middle-easterners and always will be :)



(that site only compares to other middle east groups) and specifically says that those jews compared to armenians and turks were from european lands.


No, this site says Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors




your link does not work.


sure it does...



The original Hebrews are Orientalid and Med (this is not my kin),


Well, according to you they maybe are not of your kin, but according to science called genetics they are.



and they were responsible for the slaughtering of Smyrnian Armenians and Greeks, as well as probably other financial replacement of Armenians in modern day Turkey...my grandfather was not the kin of ariel sharon


According to the pic of yourself you posted your grandfather was a kin of Ariel Sharon.



The arabs are not related to the Armenians. Where have you studied? If anywhere? What sources do you have? Please, provide me with legitamite sources, for once...


Do you have reading disabilities? Well read again:

Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors



who classified me as jewish?


Umm, everyone?



did jewish turn from religion to racial type without my knowledge? werent you the one who called a south east european an middle easterner? etc etc? the man in your avatar can just as much pass for a jew as much as i can


You are flattering yourself.



"Ashkenazim Jews are a hybrid race by long interbreeding, their ethnicities being Armenid/Arab, also referred to by some as Armenid/Hittite/Assyrian/Arab, aka Armenid/Orientalid. According to Oxford University's Dr. John R. Baker, "the evidence from blood-groups bears on the theory that the Ashkenazim have both Armenids and Orientalids ["Orientalids" is Dr. Baker's word for Arabs] for ancestors." -- from Baker's book Race, [see below], page 242, hardcover"

"The other type of Jew is the Sephardim, also known as "Mediterranean," or "Spanish," or "Portuguese," or "North African" Jews. These Jews lived mostly near the Mediterranean Sea. Sephardim Jews also lived in Iraq (Babylon), Syria, Greece, Turkey, and in the Americas, especially South America. Furthermore, Sephardic Jews lived in Palestine long before the European Zionist movement. Sephardim are more closely related to Arabs, while Ashkenazim are more related to Orientalid/Armenid"

"Luschan holds that the hook-nose is by no means characteristic of the Semites, and contends that the number of arched noses that are found among the Jews is due to ancient mixture with the Hittites in Asia Minor."

"The most important problem suggested by a study of craniometrical results concerning Jews is the relation of the type head of the modern Jews to that of the ancient Hebrews and to the modern Semitic skulls. The pure Semitic skull is dolichocephalic [long-headed], as may be seen from a study of the heads of modern Arabs, Abyssinians, Syrians .... The only way the type of the head may change is by intermixture with other races. If the ancient Hebrews were of the same stock as the modern non-Jewish Semites, and if the modern Jews are their descendants, then a pure dolichocephalic type of head would be expected among the Jews"


Did you care to read the materials in "Kurds and Armenians are the closest relatives of modern Jews" thread? If not - give it a try. Several independent sources say that Armenians are the closest relatives of Sephardic Jews.



Do you honestly mean to tell me the Jews (who altogether have 16% thin, hooked noses, and around 56% straight med, other misc), those in Mexico, China, Russia, Germany, Israel are all my kin? Wake up, your seemingly becoming more uneducated as you proceed. Please, tell me how old you two are, so I can realize if I'm wasting with American kid punks or if I'm dealing with misinformed adults.

You personally do not look stereotypically Jewish, but I classified you as Cro-magnid-Middle Eastern from the very beginning, not even knowing who you were.

Pomor
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 03:14 PM
if I understand rightly most people here favor the jew.. ?? if thats the case.. you might close this whole site.. I noticed that many Americans tend to be very forgiving against jews... is this right to ? are u not seing whats is happening to the world????? so stop picking on the Armenian ...did they cause the twin towers disaster ?or that American soliders now die every day? did they as politicians alter Americas immigration policy? think for gods sake !!!!

As soon as he stops saying complete un-scientific bullshit about N. Eastern Europeans and Russians in particular (like "half-mongols" or "OMG wide skulls") I will leave him alone. He surely does that to irritate certian people here, so he gets the same in return. I've said hundred times that I do not have problems with Armenians as a nation IN ARMENIA. What is more - I'd be happy to see Armenia prosper.
I'd also like to stop him imagining things - he obviously has never been in Armenia himself and has no fking idea what Armenia or Armenians look like. He is a typical American-born Armenian who listened to too many fairy-tales his grandfather told him. Once he (or was it his cousin) claimed that Armenians are the descendants of some mysterios Germanic tribes - I mean WTF? He also claims that there are Western Armenians who are very different from Eastern ones - complete bullshit (Armenia is a size of an average American state). And the most hilarious thing is that the man truly believes all that!!! Fking hilarious.

Pomor
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 03:20 PM
Sorry for misinforming - Armenia is actually ten times smaller than an average American state -

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/xgenopicts/armenia-map.gif

The question is - can someone in his healthy mind truly believe that this tiny piece of land can be divided into Western and Eastern Armenians, with Western being blonde-blue-eyed and Eastern - dark-haired, dark-eyed?

The verdict is - the patient needs long and careful treatment under close medical observation. He is a truly disturbed person with some kind of hallucinogenic desease.

The Blond Beast
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 03:58 PM
"Familial Mediterranean fever (FMF) occurs most commonly in people of non-Ashkenazi Jewish, Armenian, Arab, and Turkish background."
hmm...non ashkenazi...OK that rules out anything you said about them being similar to Armenians right?

"... the disease being restricted essentially to Armenian, Sephardic Jewish, Turkish, and Arab populations..."

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ.../990084.web.pdf

The Blond Beast
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 04:05 PM
Once he (or was it his cousin) claimed that Armenians are the descendants of some mysterios Germanic tribes - I mean WTF? .

No, Armenians are the descendants of the Celts of Galatia. :D

Henrik
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 04:42 PM
Razmig I do not say that jewish is a race notion. it is a religion and jewish people come in all colors. I point out however that according to stereotypes most people (not me) classified you as jewish.... so, frankly I do not understand your attacks on jewish people

Tore
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 06:34 PM
Please if you morons are gonna make a claim, BACK IT UP...

Coming from you of all people...

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 07:49 PM
Im sure if we both posted our Pics and Said "guess the Jew" they would guess you not me based on Stereotypes, since the Average Armenian is far more closer to the grossly distorted stereotype than the Average jew its a fact, i dont have a hooked nose, in fact i have a rather short stumpy nose. i do have arched eyebrows tho but i dont have Curly hair or a wide face. i was classified as "Dinaricised Med", also tho its true I come from Hebrew stock, i am more european than an Armenian since an Armenian is a Middle Easterner in the Middle East, i am Western European jew (Southern Europe)


also you are missinformed in claiming Original Jews are "orientalid+med" they came from Kurdistan (abraham was from what is now Kurdish irak) and it is Later they absorbed med thru The Voyage to Canaan and local conversions

Agrippa
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 08:04 PM
I think many Armenids converted during the diaspora too.

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 08:52 PM
I think many Armenids converted during the diaspora too.
I think many Armenids converted during the diaspora too

Possible but i think its Pre Diaspora/Conkuest of Canaan

the Racial type of Levantine Peoples is Med with an Armenid like ELement, the armenid element is found in most Jews wether Ashkenazic or Sephardic, i dont think its true "Armenoid" due to the fact Armenoids have Broad faces and the levantine Armenid element (Including Jews) does not have broad faces, in fact i think they are more like Dinaricized Akuiline nosed eastern meds

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 09:00 PM
OK guys How About this the Armenian posts his pic and my post mine and we see who Looks more like a caracature out of der Strummer

Gladstone
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 09:28 PM
BTW From where do your ancestors hale?Only just now saw this. Sweden on the one side and on the other Norman (a Norman sirname found thruout Britain and Ireland). Hope your New Year's been swell!

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 10:27 PM
I think many Armenids converted during the diaspora too

Possible but i think its Pre Diaspora/Conkuest of Canaan

the Racial type of Levantine Peoples is Med with an Armenid like ELement, the armenid element is found in most Jews wether Ashkenazic or Sephardic, i dont think its true "Armenoid" due to the fact Armenoids have Broad faces and the levantine Armenid element (Including Jews) does not have broad faces, in fact i think they are more like Dinaricized Akuiline nosed eastern meds
Quit your claims, post some facts.

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 10:31 PM
As soon as he stops saying complete un-scientific bullshit about N. Eastern Europeans and Russians in particular (like "half-mongols" or "OMG wide skulls") I will leave him alone. He surely does that to irritate certian people here, so he gets the same in return. I've said hundred times that I do not have problems with Armenians as a nation IN ARMENIA. What is more - I'd be happy to see Armenia prosper.
I'd also like to stop him imagining things - he obviously has never been in Armenia himself and has no fking idea what Armenia or Armenians look like. He is a typical American-born Armenian who listened to too many fairy-tales his grandfather told him. Once he (or was it his cousin) claimed that Armenians are the descendants of some mysterios Germanic tribes - I mean WTF? He also claims that there are Western Armenians who are very different from Eastern ones - complete bullshit (Armenia is a size of an average American state). And the most hilarious thing is that the man truly believes all that!!! Fking hilarious.
I was born in Turkey. Giligia was settled by Goths (it was called Kerman).


Sorry for misinforming - Armenia is actually ten times smaller than an average American state -

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/xgenopicts/armenia-map.gif

The question is - can someone in his healthy mind truly believe that this tiny piece of land can be divided into Western and Eastern Armenians, with Western being blonde-blue-eyed and Eastern - dark-haired, dark-eyed?

The verdict is - the patient needs long and careful treatment under close medical observation. He is a truly disturbed person with some kind of hallucinogenic desease.
Wow, whats the use, you dont listen. WESTERN ARMENIA IS IN TURKEY, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARMENIA. GALACIA IS NEAR ISTANBUL. WHY THE HELL DO I EVEN BOTHER?

"... the disease being restricted essentially to Armenian, Sephardic Jewish, Turkish, and Arab populations..."

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ.../990084.web.pdf
All people whome live off the irrigations coming on from the Tirgris and Euphrates. Go ahead, do some research...it doesn't hurt.

Razmig
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 10:33 PM
I think many Armenids converted during the diaspora too.
Converted to what? Many Armenians in Turkey (about 25% of the population of ethnic "Turks") are Armenian tribes (some galac, hamsheci, laz, bolisi, goranci, erzurumca), most of whome do not follow islam and still speak their own dialect, however refer to themselves as Turkish. Many grew up as Turks and never knew what their true ancestry was.

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 11:07 PM
"Converted to what? Many Armenians in Turkey

u need reading comprehension

He DIDNT SAY ARMENIANS IDIOT he said Armenids, he was impliying that the reason there maybe so many Armenid Jews is that alot of Armenids may have converted to Judaism

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 11:16 PM
from What i hear you look like a half Arab post your pic

this is me

Glenlivet
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 11:48 PM
Razmig is fairer (at least reddish brown beard) than the picture you attached.



from What i hear you look like a half Arab post your pic

this is me

AnthropologyNotRacism
Thursday, January 22nd, 2004, 11:53 PM
Razmig is fairer (at least reddish brown beard) than the picture you attached.
i didnt say i was fair, i have red beard too i thought that was common, im waiting for a site i have to come back up to post more pics my hair in this pic is dyed, Remember this is not about who is whitter (im not white) its about the fact that he puts down jews When Armenians Look more like the Nazi Stereotypes of Jews,

Glenlivet
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 12:09 AM
Maybe it was just a bad picture then. Red (common among Georgian Jews) or reddish beard with dark brown or blackish hair is not unusual. You seem very gracile, with weak bone structure, more Mediterranid by features and pigmentation, whereas Razmig is probably some sort of Kurgan-derived Armenoid (or simply a brachycephalised Pontid type, thus Borreby, Durmitor in Montenegro etc.).



i didnt say i was fair, i have red beard too i thought that was common, im waiting for a site i have to come back up to post more pics

AnthropologyNotRacism
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 12:14 AM
Maybe it was just a bad picture then. Red (common among Georgian Jews) or reddish beard with dark brown or blackish hair is not unusual. You seem very gracile, with weak bone structure, more Mediterranid by features and pigmentation, whereas Razmig is probably some sort of Kurgan-derived Armenoid (or simply a brachycephalised Pontid type, thus Borreby, Durmitor in Montenegro etc.).
i was classified as DInaricized Med,Red beard with black hair is common among us Dark caucasoids(levantine arabs,Jews,Armenians,Greeks,Turks)

Glenlivet
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 12:22 AM
That is reasonable from what one can tell from a small picture. Similar physical types penetrated as west as Eastern France.



i was classified as DInaricized Med,Red beard with black hair is common among us Dark caucasoids(levantine arabs,Jews,Armenians,Greeks,Turks)

AnthropologyNotRacism
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 12:35 AM
My (recent) ancestry is from South Western Europe

Henrik
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 01:23 AM
My (recent) ancestry is from South Western Europe

you look 100%european, razmig is not looking europan by any stretch of imagination

Henrik
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 01:26 AM
razmig why do you have nonarenian gf, you proud armen

AnthropologyNotRacism
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 01:32 AM
you look 100%european, razmig is not looking europan by any stretch of imagination


Lol i dont think i look 100% european, i mean i did then, i do when im well groomed when i shave and when i trim my eyebrows, when i dont i look like an Arab Camel Driver or Like a Mafia siciliano (depending on wether my face is shaved and how my hair is stiled)

i think facial hair and Eyebrows make a diffrance

ScotchTape
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 02:10 AM
I think Razmig looks far more European and has lighter pigmentation than 'Anthropologynotracism'. This is based on his picture in his profile.
As a group though, Armenians are much more swarthier.

Awar
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 02:15 AM
Razmig looks very European, judging from the pic he posted.
I don't really agree with him most of the time, but perhaps he, as an Armenian has a bit better insight into the situation there. ( I'd just give him the benefit of doubt ;))

AnthropologyNotRacism
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 02:22 AM
Razmig looks very European, judging from the pic he posted.
I don't really agree with him most of the time, but perhaps he, as an Armenian has a bit better insight into the situation there. ( I'd just give him the benefit of doubt ;))
E tu Awar :(

Awar
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 02:38 AM
Seriously, I avoid this thread because to me it seems like a series of misunderstandings.

PS. Get your terminology right, Razmig!

Evolved
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 03:03 AM
This picture of AnthropologyNotRacism with dyed red hair is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. :lol Why do you want to look like a goy? Did you try to bleach your hair blond, but it turned out orange? That happens to people with thick, mongoloid hair. :P

AnthropologyNotRacism
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 03:15 AM
This picture of AnthropologyNotRacism with dyed red hair is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. :lol Why do you want to look like a goy? Did you try to bleach your hair blond, but it turned out orange? That happens to people with thick, mongoloid hair. :P
no i died my hair ORange, and i dont know what ure impliying By Mongoloid hair, (arent you a hun)if your impliying im Khazar or a turk, Im not Ashkenazi im Sephardic, Eurosephardi Dutch/Spanish

btw Rufiosity is Higher among Eurosephardim then Among some European groups

goidelicwarrior
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 09:58 AM
Razmig I do not say that jewish is a race notion. it is a religion and jewish people come in all colors. I point out however that according to stereotypes most people (not me) classified you as jewish.... so, frankly I do not understand your attacks on jewish people
Henrik.. you are really pro jewish.. its almost suspcious.. :D
This goes further than appearance.. dont u realize that the Swedish Nordics u so wich to preserve are going under mainly because Swedish Nationalst groups are being banned and outlawed to satisfie ZOG???

xakep
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 05:04 PM
you look 100%european, razmig is not looking europan by any stretch of imagination


Lol i dont think i look 100% european, i mean i did then, i do when im well groomed when i shave and when i trim my eyebrows, when i dont i look like an Arab Camel Driver or Like a Mafia siciliano (depending on wether my face is shaved and how my hair is stiled)

i think facial hair and Eyebrows make a diffrance
You look like Saddam Hussein! :lol

Henrik
Saturday, January 24th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Henrik.. you are really pro jewish.. its almost suspcious.. :D
This goes further than appearance.. dont u realize that the Swedish Nordics u so wich to preserve are going under mainly because Swedish Nationalst groups are being banned and outlawed to satisfie ZOG???

yes I am pro-jewish i respect jewish people (the real jewish jews) for their long history of preservationism.

Razmig
Saturday, April 24th, 2004, 12:47 PM
yes I am pro-jewish i respect jewish people (the real jewish jews) for their long history of preservationism.
The "real real real real real real real real" Jews? Hmm, I'm afraid they died out the day the Assyrians relocated all of them.

Shapur
Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 12:55 PM
By the way all what you say could be right or not.
But what I will say that the Armenian language is an Iranian IE language.
In the north branche. But the jewish scientist don`t accept this.
Back with Armenia to the Iranian empire! Come home my brothers!
Have you forget how you celebrate with us for hunderds of years
Aryan celebrations? ;)

Razmig
Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 01:01 PM
By the way all what you say could be right or not.
But what I will say that the Armenian language is an Iranian IE language.
In the north branche. But the jewish scientist don`t accept this.
Back with Armenia to the Iranian empire! Come home my brothers!
Have you forget how you celebrate with us for hunderds of years
Aryan celebrations? ;)
Time for you to hit the history books.

Shapur
Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Time for you to hit the history books.Everytime I could I would burn jewish books!

Razmig
Wednesday, May 12th, 2004, 07:44 AM
Everytime I could I would burn jewish books!
i c, you would burn Einsteins research as well?

Vestmannr
Wednesday, May 12th, 2004, 11:18 PM
I have to agree with Razmig on this one. Armenians from the modern state of Armenia are a different folk than Armenians in Turkey. There is indeed a division of Eastern and Western Armenians, again a civilization not a race. The Eastern Mediterraneans I have spoken with do feel a kinship with the Jews, surprisingly, but claim their ancestors did not look like they do now: that all the ancient Armenians were tall, blond, light-eyed. The picture posted earlier in the thread of the Western Armenian gentleman, could be a Scot... no doubt that Galician blood has some Celtic descent? ;) (As for pagan, I thought the Galatians were primarily Roman Orthodox, not Armenian Orthodox?) Again, much discussion past each other.. Armenians from Cilicia dont even look like the ones from Eastern Armenia. I think, at least for us Americans (and maybe W. Europeans as well), we are used to only seeing the types of Armenians that settled in LA and Chicago: long nosed, dark curly hair, flattened skulls, huge lips, etc.

Razmig
Thursday, May 13th, 2004, 12:15 AM
I have to agree with Razmig on this one. Armenians from the modern state of Armenia are a different folk than Armenians in Turkey. There is indeed a division of Eastern and Western Armenians, again a civilization not a race. The Eastern Mediterraneans I have spoken with do feel a kinship with the Jews, surprisingly, but claim their ancestors did not look like they do now: that all the ancient Armenians were tall, blond, light-eyed. The picture posted earlier in the thread of the Western Armenian gentleman, could be a Scot... no doubt that Galician blood has some Celtic descent? ;) (As for pagan, I thought the Galatians were primarily Roman Orthodox, not Armenian Orthodox?) Again, much discussion past each other.. Armenians from Cilicia dont even look like the ones from Eastern Armenia. I think, at least for us Americans (and maybe W. Europeans as well), we are used to only seeing the types of Armenians that settled in LA and Chicago: long nosed, dark curly hair, flattened skulls, huge lips, etc.
The impression of Armenianism depends on the types of Armenians you are surrounded by...that is very much correct. In Orange Country the majority are from Syria, Southern Turkey, and Istanbul/Bulgaria. Galats perhaps have some Celtic blood, but then again the Celts were ALSO a culture/language and we dont know much about them. The Galats converted to Christianity by the apostles (like the Armenians) and were called Apostolic, and adopted the Armenian alphabet before they were included in the Byzantine empire...the borders of Galatia were surrounded around Armenia and for quite some time they had a striving independent empire. I'm very surprised you even knew what Cilician Armenians looked like (many scholars try to make it seem as if they moved there during the raids but Cilicia (Seulecia) has always existed as Armenian lands since the time of Xenephone...so it angers me when scholars consider lands east of Ionnia and Asia as "Greek" because there was a huge distinction between those peopoles despite their language familiarity.

Cilician Armenians tend to have the most blondism out of any other, and almost always accompanied with blue eyes and taller stature than mainland Armenians. Sometimes you will find darker complected Giligians but most likely they are remnants of the intermarriages that took place during the wars in an attempt to survive as a people (much of the phoenotypes of Armenians have been destroyed now). Galatians, like Giligians, also have their own language (barely understandable by even Western Armenians) and usually have brown to red hair, green eyes (probably because theyre between dark hair and light hair, thus creating a medium)...but you can find many dark haired Galatians as well as olive skinned. They're often much taller than all other Armenians. All tribes and Armenians had their own pagan religions (fire worship) that encompassed the three major dieties of Fire, Water (Fish), and the sky (Thunder, or Thiespas). The Galatians have a similar religion, only their temples were destroyed by their enemies, unlike the Armenian and Gilgian which had churches built atop of them to preserve those paganistic sites.

Anyways, there is a huge difference between different types of Armenians but since most of them are now moving to America, they are all mixing with each other, and even Giligia itself is being populated by Kurds (intentionally by the Turkish government) to kick out all Christians from the region. The reason why Galatians are not being kicked out is because we know we havnt a chance in freedom and were also a tourist attraction for Europeans.

I dont see anything non-Caucasoid/Europid about someone with a long face/nose, curly hair, flat skull or pertruding lower lip. IMO it's just the extremity of Europids (having long face, textured hair etc). Many eastern Armenians, like I've stated before, have intermingled with the Balkars/Bolgars from Russia who settled in that region, Mongol settlers, Persians, and thus often times have darker pigmentation, but as a whole you will see the majority of them are pure considering their location.

Shapur
Thursday, May 13th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Armenians are for me an Iranian tribe. One of our proudest tribes!
;)

Razmig
Thursday, May 13th, 2004, 11:18 PM
Armenians are for me an Iranian tribe. One of our proudest tribes!
;)
Um...you're misinformed...the only place I've seen Armenians considered an "Iranian" tribe was one some lame internet site fooling people into thinking Iranians are in any way the same as the ancient Medians (a people in modern day Northwestern Iran)...I don't see how that constitutes for the majority of Iranians (a mixed people) being Aryans, Medians, Scythians or any other IE tribes for that matter. IE spread from Anatolia into Iran, not the other way around...and Kurds are not "Iranians."

Glenlivet
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 12:33 AM
Can you tell us more about their ethogenesis and what you know about different Kurdish tribes. I am also aware that there are Kurds in the Caucasus.


and Kurds are not "Iranians."

Shapur
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 10:25 AM
This is a laugh razming! Kurds are 100% Iranians!
Kurds speaking North-West Iranian language, they have Iranian culture and look 100% Iranian. So how you will claim they are not Iranians?
By the way you have your opinion about Armenians and I have my opinion.
And how I can say is the Armenian language in the north branch of Iranian languages. If you think that IE is spread in Anatolia you can do this.
I never said this is false. But Anatolia is also a part of Aryan vajje or Iran Zamin the land of ALL Iranians.
So don`t propagandate that Kurds aren`t Iranians.
This is like to propagandate that Norwegians aren`t Germans!

Gareth
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 11:36 PM
This is like to propagandate that Norwegians aren`t Germans! Mind you, they aren't. You should know their culture and comprehension better.

gorillazonyoass
Friday, May 14th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Nice semite in your avatar, shapur.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/image.php?u=2626&dateline=1084107788
http://www.forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=2626

Razmig
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Can you tell us more about their ethogenesis and what you know about different Kurdish tribes. I am also aware that there are Kurds in the Caucasus.
The Kurds have always been a nomadic people, and for that reason have many different tribes that inter-react with one another. The only Kurds in the Caucus are the Yezidi Kurds (those same Kurds inhabit Van area, formerly Armenian, in Turkey). Kurds have always been in the south eastern regions of Turkey, since the time of Xenephone, and were decendents of the Medians, and the Medians were not "Iranian", a word that has never existed in history. I think Shapur is trying to pass off everything "Aryan" as "Iranian" and its souly not true, mostly because Iranians themselves are made up largely of Semetic (Essam) herritage.

This is a laugh razming! Kurds are 100% Iranians!
Kurds speaking North-West Iranian language, they have Iranian culture and look 100% Iranian. So how you will claim they are not Iranians?
By the way you have your opinion about Armenians and I have my opinion.
And how I can say is the Armenian language in the north branch of Iranian languages. If you think that IE is spread in Anatolia you can do this.
I never said this is false. But Anatolia is also a part of Aryan vajje or Iran Zamin the land of ALL Iranians.
So don`t propagandate that Kurds aren`t Iranians.
This is like to propagandate that Norwegians aren`t Germans!
"Um" this is not opinion, it is historical fact. Armenian is not Aryan (don't honour yourself by replacing the word Aryan with Iranian), it is a branch of Thraco-Phyrgian languages (the only surviving left) that spread into the region from the Balkans. Armenians, are a people who migrated East (the Armens), and mingled with the Kurgan tribes that were settled at the foot of the Caucus, as well as with ancient Hittites etc. Anatolia has never been "Aryan", and Anatolia was under Persian rule for a long time, so for that reason there are traces of Persian words in some Armenian dialects. Norwegens are not Germans friend...

I fear your careless remarks can spread falsifications...culture and language is not an opinion, nor do I think you have any business stating things simply because you wish them to be, so please, refrain from your insulting.

Razmig
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 10:38 AM
Nice semite in your avatar, shapur.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/image.php?u=2626&dateline=1084107788
http://www.forums.skadi.net/member.php?u=2626
I doubt he's a semite, if Shapur is Iranian...he looks like an Eastern Kurd IMO or a North Iranian...BTW Semite is not a race, it is a language group. If you're going to imply this man is of pure "semetic" south Arabian stock, then I think you're nutts. :D

Shapur
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 11:17 AM
The Kurds have always been a nomadic people, and for that reason have many different tribes that inter-react with one another. The only Kurds in the Caucus are the Yezidi Kurds (those same Kurds inhabit Van area, formerly Armenian, in Turkey). Kurds have always been in the south eastern regions of Turkey, since the time of Xenephone, and were decendents of the Medians, and the Medians were not "Iranian", a word that has never existed in history. I think Shapur is trying to pass off everything "Aryan" as "Iranian" and its souly not true, mostly because Iranians themselves are made up largely of Semetic (Essam) herritage.

"Um" this is not opinion, it is historical fact. Armenian is not Aryan (don't honour yourself by replacing the word Aryan with Iranian), it is a branch of Thraco-Phyrgian languages (the only surviving left) that spread into the region from the Balkans. Armenians, are a people who migrated East (the Armens), and mingled with the Kurgan tribes that were settled at the foot of the Caucus, as well as with ancient Hittites etc. Anatolia has never been "Aryan", and Anatolia was under Persian rule for a long time, so for that reason there are traces of Persian words in some Armenian dialects. Norwegens are not Germans friend...

I fear your careless remarks can spread falsifications...culture and language is not an opinion, nor do I think you have any business stating things simply because you wish them to be, so please, refrain from your insulting.
How I said you have your opinion about Armenians and I have MY opinion.
So I don`t discuss with you about this in this thread.

Medians are AN Iranian tribe. I will speak with respect to you but I could laugh about your statment. But I don`t do it because I have a high respect for Armenian people. But you words show a high unknowledge. I will help you to clear this unknowledge.

The Iranians are a group of people who have a simmilar culture/language and race"Caucasoid". If someone will pass as Iranian he must have an Iranian culture. So have Kurds the Iranian culture? Yes they have. They celebrate Newrooz one of the importantest celebrations of Iranians. By the way the Armenians did this also for a long time ago. To their language.
Speaking Kurds an Iranian language? Yes they do. They speaking a North-Western Iranian language. In this group is beside Zazaki/Dimili, Sorani/Kurmanji also Gilani/Mazandarani, Rashti, Talysh and also old language of Pahlavi!
Are they member of the Caucasoid race? Yes they are.
So they are 100% Iranians!
The Medians are also Caucasoid/Iranian speaking and having the Iranian culture. So the Medians are Iranians too.
The Medians are the ancestors of the Sorani/Kurmanji speaking Iranians.
Korush the great king of Iranians was it self half Median"Kord" and half Persian! Kurds are Iranians this is a fact and you can NOT claim other!

Norwegians aren`t a good sample. But how I know are Norwegians/Scandinavians/Angle Saxons and other tribes member of the German language family. My knowledge is not so high to claim they are one nation or so, because I don`t know their culture. But their language is near together and also their race! The third important part of being one nation is culture and in this field is my knowledge about German tribes not so high.
So exuse me when I write a wrong statement.


Here a picture of a Median and a Persian. You see they look very simmilar.
By the way the Persians AND the Medians were the two ruler tribes in the Achaemnidian empire.
http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/APA/1G1_72dpi.gif

About my avater. The guy is NOT a semit. How ramzing explain it well!

Thx and Payendeh be Armania ud Aryan Vajje!

Razmig
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Firstly, Shapur, let me clear up a few things about your "opinion." Gilaki, Bakhtiari, Baluchi, Kurdish and Mazanderani are COMPLETELY seperate languages and seperate cultures with different traditions, the ONLY thing that links these people is perhaps the national religion of Islam, and the enforcement of Persian rule. They are as seperate as Turkmens and Arabs, who have a large population in Iran. The Indians speak an "Indo-Iranian" language as well, this does not make them "Iranians"...you're confusing the term with modern day Iran, yet these language similarities are not only between the people of central asia but in europe, anatolia etc as well...The Kurds have a culture far seperate from modern day Iranian, and much of their traditions stem from Armenian (some of them even practice Christian Armenian as well as Pagan/Fire Worship Armenian ceremonies).

Kurdish is just another bordering Indo-European language, that does not make them Iranians...Islam has probably caused many people to intermarry (with Turkmens and Arabs as well, no doubt)...But even before Kurds began to settle in Anatolia during the aftermath of WWI they had minority populations in the Iranian section of ancient Azerbaijan (northern Iran). The Azeri's, were the leader class in Iran up untill the march westerward by the Turkmens (such cities such as Tehran and Isfahan were built by Turkic leaders).

Shapur
Saturday, May 15th, 2004, 10:59 PM
Firstly, Shapur, let me clear up a few things about your "opinion." Gilaki, Bakhtiari, Baluchi, Kurdish and Mazanderani are COMPLETELY seperate languages and seperate cultures with different traditions, the ONLY thing that links these people is perhaps the national religion of Islam, and the enforcement of Persian rule. They are as seperate as Turkmens and Arabs, who have a large population in Iran. The Indians speak an "Indo-Iranian" language as well, this does not make them "Iranians"...you're confusing the term with modern day Iran, yet these language similarities are not only between the people of central asia but in europe, anatolia etc as well...The Kurds have a culture far seperate from modern day Iranian, and much of their traditions stem from Armenian (some of them even practice Christian Armenian as well as Pagan/Fire Worship Armenian ceremonies).

Kurdish is just another bordering Indo-European language, that does not make them Iranians...Islam has probably caused many people to intermarry (with Turkmens and Arabs as well, no doubt)...But even before Kurds began to settle in Anatolia during the aftermath of WWI they had minority populations in the Iranian section of ancient Azerbaijan (northern Iran). The Azeri's, were the leader class in Iran up untill the march westerward by the Turkmens (such cities such as Tehran and Isfahan were built by Turkic leaders).
I understand now what you are going on. You will claim that there nothing exist like Iranian. But how I said I have enough arguments which proofs that Kurds are Iranians.

You said: Gilaki, Bakhtiari, Baluchi, Kurdish and Mazanderani are COMPLETELY seperate languages and seperate cultures with different traditions.

So please write me as first what make these languages so COMPLETELY different? The fact that these languages were for 1000 years ONE language?
Please not hot words, but please posting facts!
You said also they have seperated cultures with different traditions.
Their clothes are very simmilar. Don`t celebrate them all Iranian celebrations like Nowrooz? I think befor you claiming something what is NOT true you should learn what Iranians are. I see also in your words a big hate against Azaris.

Befor you are writting here so many lies you should bring facts.
I can bring enough facts.

Here for you:

Sorani: Men aw efroschem
Farsi: Man ab mifroscham

By the way the biggest differents between Sorani and Farsi are created by grammar. If we would have the same ground base words and grammar it would be so.

Sorani: Man aw mifroscham
Farsi: Man ab mifroscham

Oh my god is the language SOOOO different. Man wake up the language is soooooo simmilar as no other languages. We could create a high language from North/South West Iranian languages. And this we will do one day!

Medians are Zoroastrians so they are Iranians. Also described in the Avesta.
Befor you claiming that Medians"ancestors of Sorani/Kurmanji speaking Kurds" are non-Iranians you should bring facts who proof that they are non-Iranians.

I wait for facts! Please proof your statments.

Payende be Iran Zamin!

Razmig
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Kurd's have a culture FAR from Iranian, because Iranians were muslim long before the Kurds were. I'm not getting my point across to you. Ancient Iranian (Aryan) has little to do with modern day Iran...which has been over-ruled by Turks and Arabs...Kurdish, in many ways, has a purer form of the Median language (and the Scythians were said to be a Mongoloid type people who spoke the Iranian IE language, a branch of IE and nothing to do with modern day Iran, that spread into northern Caucus).

http://user.tninet.se/~rwa187x/KURDISH.HTM

That has good pyramids of the distributation of the IE language in the EAST, but does that make the Indian's an Iranian (modern day Iran) people? Nope. They are different, there is a reason why they are different and have different labels for their cultulre and language.

Like I have stated before, the Kurds have spoken a seperate dialect more closely related to Median (the original IE region before any IE was present in modern day Iran) which Xenephone had compared to many of the people in Armenia and Anatolia, and came to the conclusion that they were either Armenians, or the Armenians in Armenia (really the present day Kurds) were Medians...he also noted that his soldiers had no problem conversing with them, seeing as how these languages are all closely related.

Shapur
Monday, May 17th, 2004, 10:30 PM
Kurd's have a culture FAR from Iranian, because Iranians were muslim long before the Kurds were.
This is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Kurds were Zoroastrians like Persians and other Iranians befor the Islam convited them.


I'm not getting my point across to you.
You? No... Never... LOL!


Ancient Iranian (Aryan) has little to do with modern day Iran...which has been over-ruled by Turks and Arabs...
Please a source for this statment. Yes the Iranians world has been over-runned by Turks and Arabs. We lost many Sarmatia/Scythia/Nepta/Ahurania/Khukhania many places which are today Arabic/Turkish. But we could rescure something. This is the today Iranian world. By the way are the most Iranians Caucasoid. So you can forget to deny that Iranians are mixed or so! I have enough genetic researches!


Kurdish, in many ways, has a purer form of the Median language
I study Iranian languages man. You will say that you know more as me?
I can speak Iranian languages without learning the language like normal people. I only want to learn the grammatic and then I begin to speaking.
How I said it in an other thread.



(and the Scythians were said to be a Mongoloid type people who spoke the Iranian IE language, a branch of IE and nothing to do with modern day Iran, that spread into northern Caucus).

Yeah the Scythian people were so Mongoloid. This is why their ancestors are 100% Caucasoid. This is one of Scythians features. They can become over night Caucasoid. Come on man. Scythians were 100% pure Iranians.
We have enough pictures of them. Only why you have NO knowledge about this stuff must mean that we must belive your propganda"what has a turkish source".


http://user.tninet.se/~rwa187x/KURDISH.HTMWhy you giving me a source what give me in all ways right?


That has good pyramids of the distributation of the IE language in the EAST, but does that make the Indian's an Iranian (modern day Iran) people? Nope. They are different, there is a reason why they are different and have different labels for their cultulre and language.
I think you don`t understand it right. On this pyramid you can see that Old Persian and Median are both West Iranian languages. Sanskrit is an Indo-Iranian language. The Indians were Iranians. But they become muds because they mixed with Dravians. In past times Indians and Iranians consider as one nation. But today no thx. By the way Kurdish come not directly from Median.
All Iranian languages are so mixed. This is why you can only with grammatic learning learn a new Iranian language.


Like I have stated before, the Kurds have spoken a seperate dialect more closely related to Median (the original IE region before any IE was present in modern day Iran)
Yes Media was the original IE region. Also parts from Iran and northern Iran and Caucasus. But this don`t say that Kurds are not Iranians.


which Xenephone had compared to many of the people in Armenia and Anatolia, and came to the conclusion that they were either Armenians, or the Armenians in Armenia (really the present day Kurds) were Medians...
How I said. Armenians are Iranians. They speak a very old northern Iranian language. But this is not official schoolary. So we don`t need to speak about this. Medians were Medians. They are Iranians. This is why Korush king of all kings was half Median half Persian. We have enough scripts about old Median.
And is so near to old Persian that you can understand it without problems.
I think personal Armenians and Medians are near together. But the same like Persians and Armenians are near together.


he also noted that his soldiers had no problem conversing with them, seeing as how these languages are all closely related.
Median is not Armenian.

My friend I don`t want to struggle with you. I see how the light of a greater Armenia is in your eyes. But forget this greate Armenia. Accept the reality.
Work with us together. Let`s build an Aryan Vajje for all Iranians also Armenians. If you don`t accept this fact that Armenians are Iranians.
Then know one. We Iranians and Armenians live since over 8000 years together. Brothers side on side. Lets work together.
Lets destroy our Semitic/Turkic/Dravic enemies.
Lets build a new Aryan empire!

Bedroud ud Payandeh be Armenia ud Iran Zamin!

Übersoldat
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 05:53 PM
i was classified as DInaricized Med,Red beard with black hair is common among us Dark caucasoids(levantine arabs,Jews,Armenians,Greeks,Turks)

Jews are in fact Levantines with sub-Saharan strings, every Armenoid characteristic they have is the by-product of Babylonian captivity.

I cannot belive some people here classified a Semite Jew as Dinaric and Mediterranean Europoid!! :burn

Übersoldat
Tuesday, July 6th, 2004, 06:13 PM
RACIAL ORIGIN OF JEWS (http://www.solargeneral.com/library/RacialOriginOfJews.pdf)

Razmig
Friday, July 9th, 2004, 11:22 PM
Jews are in fact Levantines with sub-Saharan strings, every Armenoid characteristic they have is the by-product of Babylonian captivity.

I cannot belive some people here classified a Semite Jew as Dinaric and Mediterranean Europoid!! :burn
Christians are in fact Nordic with sub-pure strain, every foriegn characteristic they have is the by-product of invaders

I cannot beleive some people here classified a Pure Christian as "mongrel" Mediterannean or affiliate with mixed raced Arabs!

Dobermann
Tuesday, October 12th, 2004, 01:54 PM
I was only letting those who are not Armenian, and whome do not know that many Armenians that the armenians have absorbed non Armenian peoples such as Gypsies who passed through Armenia, and Iranians who controlled Armenia, and settled in the eastern fronts, you also have to remember that regions like cilicia, cappadocia, pontus were Armenian states, that remained independently controlled under the Romans, Arabs, etc:
http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/nnc/parthia/images/pamap.jpg

However, all Armenians, are Armenians, but the eastern Armenians, especially of Russia, are decendants of Arevelian (people of the sun rise). Western Armenian is called Aremetahye, for "people of the sun set" in Armenia. What is now Turkey. Most Armenians do not mix outside of their race, and especially not outside their religion, as it is considered a ban from the Armenian community (as it originally was in Turkey). Being Armenian is not being one of coons outdated racial classifications that have no meaning in the modern anthropological world. However they can be used to classify certain ethnic groups of today.

If you visit Armenian inhabited regions of America, such as Fresno, New York city, Boston, youll see that the majority of them stay within their own. Thats more than can be said about Italians etc.
My father told me of how the armenians in Syria dont mix at all with the arab's and turk's.I dont think you have to be rude about the arab's though we have never done anything against the armenian people.in face we have given you homes in Syria and other arab country's.

Razmig
Thursday, October 14th, 2004, 08:50 PM
My father told me of how the armenians in Syria dont mix at all with the arab's and turk's.I dont think you have to be rude about the arab's though we have never done anything against the armenian people.in face we have given you homes in Syria and other arab country's.
My comment above was sarcastic and anything I said was not meant to offend. The Arabs gave Armenia (in their time of conquer) our own king and let us live our lives without the threats we suffered under the violent Turks or Mongols. I do not have anything against the Arabs, they are a highly intelligent hard working group of people that sometimes ignorant Americans fail to realize their potentials. Bedouins, my favorite ethnic group (the real Arabs) are the decendants of one of the worlds most intruiging people.

Dobermann
Thursday, October 21st, 2004, 02:11 PM
My comment above was sarcastic and anything I said was not meant to offend. The Arabs gave Armenia (in their time of conquer) our own king and let us live our lives without the threats we suffered under the violent Turks or Mongols. I do not have anything against the Arabs, they are a highly intelligent hard working group of people that sometimes ignorant Americans fail to realize their potentials. Bedouins, my favorite ethnic group (the real Arabs) are the decendants of one of the worlds most intruiging people.


No problem ramzig,these discussions get heated sometimes.Dont forget as well that any self respecting Arab hates the Turk's and sympathizes with the Armenian peoples stuggle due in large part to there oppression of the Arab's under the Ottoman empire.In fact who like's the Turk's apart from the Turk's? ;) Im very intrested in your esoteric comment about the bedou? who are they the descendents off?